New Builder

[Rebflyer]

Hi Scott,
I'm not sure of your riveter problem, but if is in the nature of not pulling all the way the first pull or just doesn't seem strong enough you might look to see if is an air over oil system. The one I bought from campbell hausfield is that way, along with one from Mac tools(like a snap-on dealer) that we were given because it didn't work anymore. Took it apart to see why it didn't work, found the oil to be missing. I think we added about 3 oz of Marvel mystery oil to the cylinder area and it has worked fine since. Curt N97MR Keep at it it's worth it!
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[rebelair]

Hi Curt

What do you mean by 'air over oil' system? I have a completely different
concept of an air over oil system. (Just installed 3 of them at work).

Brian #328R

-----Original Message-----
From: Rebflyer@aol.com [mailto:Rebflyer@aol.com]
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2000 11:15 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: new builder


Hi Scott,
I'm not sure of your riveter problem, but if is in the nature of not
pulling all the way the first pull or just doesn't seem strong enough you
might look to see if is an air over oil system. The one I bought from
campbell hausfield is that way, along with one from Mac tools(like a snap-on
dealer) that we were given because it didn't work anymore. Took it apart to
see why it didn't work, found the oil to be missing. I think we added about
3 oz of Marvel mystery oil to the cylinder area and it has worked fine
since. Curt N97MR Keep at it it's worth it!
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[AGT]

Hi Scott,

I also got the MAM tool kit. I threw the box away that my riveter came in
ages ago so I'm not sure I have the same riveter, but I have had a few
problems with mine as well. I have taken the "head" apart many times for
cleaning and that usually fixes things up. I used a file brush a couple of
times on the jaws to get the gunk out of there. The worst problem I had was
when I lost the oil in the hydraulic chamber and the gun wouldn't pull
rivets any more. Contrary to popular belief, it is not a pneumatic rivet
gun. It is a pneumatic/hydraulic gun. Air is used to push the piston in
the bottom part of the gun which then pushes on the oil in the top part of
the gun which eventually squeezes the jaws shut and pulls on the rivet
mandrel until it breaks. You have to have just the right amount of oil.
Too much or too little and the gun won't work right. Take the snap ring off
the bottom and bang the gun on your wooden table until the piston can be
removed. Then pour oil (I just used pneumatic tool lubricating oil. No
idea whether that is correct, but it works fine for me.) into the chamber
while holding the gun upside down until the narrow part of the chamber up
near the head is full of oil. Then put the gun back together and try it.
Too much oil may cause the gun to pull so quickly that it sounds like a high
caliber rifle going off. Too little oil, and once again, it won't pull the
rivet at all. Sometimes it might even grab the mandrel without pulling it
until it breaks and not let go. Then your gun is stuck on the rivet. You
might have to disassemble it right there to get it to let go. After a few
tries you'll figure out just the right amount of oil. After my last
cleaning and the one time I had to add oil (I'm still not sure how it lost
the oil to begin with.) the gun started acting like it was brand new again.

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: scott collier [mailto:scottcollier_sanuki@yahoo.com]
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2000 12:38 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: new builder


Hello,

I recently joined this list and just want to introduce
myself and thank Mike Davis for providing this
wonderful service!

My name is Scott Collier, Elite # 688, a first-time
builder. I chose the Elite based mostly on experience
with my Aeronca Chief: better high-end performance,
good low-end numbers, much more room and range and
still lots of fun to fly. Plus I get the experience
and knowledge gained through building it.

I had my pre-close inspection for the horizontal
stabilizer by an EAA Technical Counselor in September
but have been stymied since then by problems with my
pneumatic riveter, the 'Garage-Pro' supplied in the
basic tool kit from MAM (has anyone else had problems
with this riveter?), as well as 'Rivets Unlimited'
rivets (filed many protruding mandrels down until I
e-mailed MAM technical support and asked them what I
was doing wrong and learned about the rivet exchange
policy). But overall my building has been a very
enjoyable experience and I am constantly learning as I
go.

Scott Collier

__________________________________________________
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[Bob Patterson]

Hi All !

One thing we found that caused problems with the jaws in the
rivet guns was: dipping the rivets too deep in the epoxy chromate
before inserting & pulling them ! If you just dip about 1/8" of
the end of the rivet, that will give enough epoxy to seal the rivet in,
AND pull up & seal around the mandrel too. Any more, and the extra
comes out with the mandrel & glues the gun jaws together ! :-(

(Everybody <IS> putting their rivets in wet, aren't they !)

......bobp

------------------------------orig.-----------------------------------
At 01:50 PM 12/19/00 -0900, you wrote:

Hi Scott,

I also got the MAM tool kit. I threw the box away that my riveter came in
ages ago so I'm not sure I have the same riveter, but I have had a few
problems with mine as well. I have taken the "head" apart many times for
cleaning and that usually fixes things up. I used a file brush a couple of
times on the jaws to get the gunk out of there. The worst problem I had was
when I lost the oil in the hydraulic chamber and the gun wouldn't pull
rivets any more. Contrary to popular belief, it is not a pneumatic rivet
gun. It is a pneumatic/hydraulic gun. Air is used to push the piston in
the bottom part of the gun which then pushes on the oil in the top part of
the gun which eventually squeezes the jaws shut and pulls on the rivet
mandrel until it breaks. You have to have just the right amount of oil.
Too much or too little and the gun won't work right. Take the snap ring off
the bottom and bang the gun on your wooden table until the piston can be
removed. Then pour oil (I just used pneumatic tool lubricating oil. No
idea whether that is correct, but it works fine for me.) into the chamber
while holding the gun upside down until the narrow part of the chamber up
near the head is full of oil. Then put the gun back together and try it.
Too much oil may cause the gun to pull so quickly that it sounds like a high
caliber rifle going off. Too little oil, and once again, it won't pull the
rivet at all. Sometimes it might even grab the mandrel without pulling it
until it breaks and not let go. Then your gun is stuck on the rivet. You
might have to disassemble it right there to get it to let go. After a few
tries you'll figure out just the right amount of oil. After my last
cleaning and the one time I had to add oil (I'm still not sure how it lost
the oil to begin with.) the gun started acting like it was brand new again.

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: scott collier [mailto:scottcollier_sanuki@yahoo.com]
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2000 12:38 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: new builder


Hello,

I recently joined this list and just want to introduce
myself and thank Mike Davis for providing this
wonderful service!

My name is Scott Collier, Elite # 688, a first-time
builder. I chose the Elite based mostly on experience
with my Aeronca Chief: better high-end performance,
good low-end numbers, much more room and range and
still lots of fun to fly. Plus I get the experience
and knowledge gained through building it.

I had my pre-close inspection for the horizontal
stabilizer by an EAA Technical Counselor in September
but have been stymied since then by problems with my
pneumatic riveter, the 'Garage-Pro' supplied in the
basic tool kit from MAM (has anyone else had problems
with this riveter?), as well as 'Rivets Unlimited'
rivets (filed many protruding mandrels down until I
e-mailed MAM technical support and asked them what I
was doing wrong and learned about the rivet exchange
policy). But overall my building has been a very
enjoyable experience and I am constantly learning as I
go.

Scott Collier

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products.
http://shopping.yahoo.com/
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[Legeorgen]

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------ Start of attached email. Subject: Re: new builder ------
Bob,

No, all my rivets are not coated! The wings were already made and the
fuselage was 3/4 complete when I bought the kit. I have coated some rivets in
what I considered critical areas but since the majority of the plane was
built prior to my purchase, with rivets not being dipped, I have not worried
to much about it. The manual says as an option for extra insurance the rivets
can be dipped. Do I have something to worry about? How important is it?

Other than this the previous builder did a very nice job. He did chromate all
joining services. I had a tech councilor and mechanic (a personal friend of
mine) check it out before I bought, and he gave it a good grade. I talked to
the tech support/mechanic of the original builder and he vouched for the guy
as well.

Blue skies and tailwinds,
Bruce G 357R




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------ End of attached email ------

[RJ Thomas]

Hi everybody,

I'd like to introduce myself to the list. I am Robert Thomas, aka "rj". I
have been a subscriber to Mike's list for several months and took delivery
of Super Rebel kit #140 a couple of weeks ago.

To date I have installed 24 of the 27,000+ rivets (yes, I did dip them
first), so I calculate that I am 0.089% complete with an airframe (firewall
back).


Cheers, rj
=======================================

R J Thomas
Lafayette, LA
rj.thomas@halliburton.com

Super Rebel #140



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[LisaFly99]

rj
Welcome to the group. Must be nice to have a Super Rebel to look forward to.
You'll hear this more than once only because it's the truth. Keep at it
because it's worth it! Best of the holidays to you and all.
Phil&Lisa Smith #460 N414D

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[Bob Patterson]

Hi Bruce !

Don't lose any sleep over it ! Dipping the rivets IS very much
"standard practice" for most Rebels, but if yours was already done,
without dipping, but with the joints put together wet, you'll likely
be just fine.

As you get to the front end, there are several 3/16" Stainless
rivets - it <IS> important to dip these before installing, to prevent
electolytic action between the dissimilar metals. Without the epoxy
to provide a barrier, corrosion can advance rapidly !

The method is to dip just 1/8" or so of the rivet into epoxy
chromate before inserting it - this will provide enough to coat the
barrel, and some will pull up around the mandrel to seal around it,
as well. Among other things, this stops it from "raining INSIDE" ! ;-)

You could brush the epoxy on the ends of the rivets on the
fuse roof that are already done, and get most of the benefit....

......bobp

--------------------------------orig.-------------------------------------
At 11:03 PM 12/21/00 EST, you wrote:

Return-path: <Legeorgen@cs.com>
From: Legeorgen@cs.com
Full-name: Legeorgen
Message-ID: <20.fa427f2.2772d7a2@cs.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 22:48:50 EST
Subject: Re: new builder
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 32-bit sub 111

Bob,

No, all my rivets are not coated! The wings were already made and the
fuselage was 3/4 complete when I bought the kit. I have coated some rivets in
what I considered critical areas but since the majority of the plane was
built prior to my purchase, with rivets not being dipped, I have not worried
to much about it. The manual says as an option for extra insurance the rivets
can be dipped. Do I have something to worry about? How important is it?

Other than this the previous builder did a very nice job. He did chromate all
joining services. I had a tech councilor and mechanic (a personal friend of
mine) check it out before I bought, and he gave it a good grade. I talked to
the tech support/mechanic of the original builder and he vouched for the guy
as well.

Blue skies and tailwinds,
Bruce G 357R

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[Legeorgen]

Bob,

I was at the Factory last month and picked up two corner raps and they are
stilled called fus 10, and are still .20 (I just measured one). I was
considering cutting the firewall back but decided not to.

I hear some are doubling up the corner raps? I was not going to take apart
what has been made to install heaver ones, but is it recommended to just cut
the .20 fus 10's short and rivet them over the originals?

Bruce G 357R
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[rebelair]

Hi Bruce

I doubled the lower ones which are under compression & riveted mid span as
well. These ones under compression would be more apt to fail. Having them
overlapped looks just fine. I have seen a few that began to fail at the
cross over area so that is when I decide to do this. Much easier to do now
obviously than later. Whatever you do, don't just stick with the 0.020"
lower corner wraps. In my humble opinion only.

Happy Building

Brian #328R

PS Building is satisfying but flying the Rebel is a blast!

-----Original Message-----
From: Legeorgen@cs.com [mailto:Legeorgen@cs.com]
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2000 11:14 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: new builder



Bob,

I was at the Factory last month and picked up two corner raps and they are
stilled called fus 10, and are still .20 (I just measured one). I was
considering cutting the firewall back but decided not to.

I hear some are doubling up the corner raps? I was not going to take apart
what has been made to install heaver ones, but is it recommended to just cut
the .20 fus 10's short and rivet them over the originals?

Bruce G 357R
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[Legeorgen]

Hi Brian,

Would you drill out the existing rivets on the corner raps, to install the
doublers? Or would you just cut the new ones short and drill new holes just
inside of the existing rivets?

Spring gear would be a "BIG" job to take apart if I use the existing rivet
holes (one of the reasons I chose not to cut back the firewall).

I don't remember, did you cut back your own firewall?

Bruce G
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[rebelair]

HI Bruce

I would be inclined to drill out the existing rivets & back drill to install
the corner wraps. The area at the cross over (2" square tube area), is the
one I believe is critical. That is where I have seen cracking in other
Rebels. At that spot, I would definitely want all the material I could get
to make it stiff in compression & also all corners well radiused to ensure
no crack propogation sites.

As far as the bigger rivets, as they are not stainless here, I would have no
problem removing these rivets & sliding in the new pieces. This is where
the problems would take place & therefore you want the thickest material.
The large rivets are not really much harder to remove than the smaller ones
& there would be no more than six per side. In my opinion, just do it.

I also have spring gear & did shorten the firewall. I'm sorry but I don't
understand your explanation for not cutting the firewall back.

Best Regards

Brian #328R

-----Original Message-----
From: Legeorgen@cs.com [mailto:Legeorgen@cs.com]
Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2000 3:51 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: new builder


Hi Brian,

Would you drill out the existing rivets on the corner raps, to install the
doublers? Or would you just cut the new ones short and drill new holes just
inside of the existing rivets?

Spring gear would be a "BIG" job to take apart if I use the existing rivet
holes (one of the reasons I chose not to cut back the firewall).

I don't remember, did you cut back your own firewall?

Bruce G
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[Legeorgen]

Brian,

When I purchased the kit, the firewall and gear were already completed. To
cut back the firewall would require drilling out and removing the spring gear
as well as the door posts and instrument panel. The lower and upper corner
raps would need replacing and the lower bottom panel (fus ?) would be cut
back 3". This lower panel is sandwiched between the spring gear and fuselage.

I'll look at the gear again. If doubling the raps and not cutting the
firewall only requires removing six rivets on each side of the spring gear
and slipping the corner raps in place, I will most certainly do at least that.

What I don't understand is way MAM continues to deny the Rebel has a problem
in this area. How can they sell me new fus 10's that are .20, yet ship new
birds with .32 corner raps at the same time, and say it's just to consolidate
their inventory? Are they not convinced that it's a real problem?

In all fairness MAM does recommend cutting the firewall for C of G, but they
say nothing about it reducing the leveraged stress in this area when the
firewall is not cut. Maybe I'm naive. Is the Rebel engineered so close that a
3" shift in the engine mass would break or make its ultimate design limits
for the metal in this area? Or are all Rebels, firewall cut or not,
experiencing this problem?

I can appreciate that the Rebel evolved from an 80 HP to a 150 HP airplane
and certain design changes are necessary but MAM should be leading the way,
not the builders forum. It's a little disconcerting when you read about this
stuff happening to builders planes and when I address MAM with these concerns
they more often than not just shrug their shoulders and say something like;
"That only happened to one plane and that guy should not have been operating
in such an environment in the first place".

I don't want to be a real test pilot so my philosophy as been buy a proven
airplane and follow the manufacturers manual then install only factory
supported engines.

If I sound just a little confused, I am. But I'm done venting for now.

Bruce G 357R
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[Gary Mulready]

To all the Murphy Builders

I just like to introduce myself. I received the first sub-kit #1 in the
New Year and have just finish inventorying it (every item was there) My
serial number is 712R. I must say that the two meeting that I have attend at
Brampton Airport have been informative and enjoyable. One reason I choose
the Rebel is the support that is out there for the new builders like myself.
Thanks Bob Patterson for having these meetings.

Thank You
Gary Mulready
712R

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[eric.r]

Thanks for the responses ... I'll take all the free advice I can get.
I will get all the float and firewall mods, and incorporate all other
strengthening mods ... I'll decide on pro-seal vs epoxy primer, vs whatever
soon ... keep those opinions and ideas coming! Hours is Hours, so maybe I'll
end up with solid riveted floats and change my mind on the rest of the
project. "reinvent the wheel" is what I'm known for! Maybe I'll try
wellbutrin or valium and follow the directions! The rebel amphib on display
at OshKosh last year seemed to be built "as-per", and to me it was a real
beauty!



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