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[rebel-builders] float operations

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David Jackson

[rebel-builders] float operations

Post by David Jackson » Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:06 pm

Garry,
I don't think you can get the temperature below freezing because of evaporation. Even windchill is only a measure of an equivalent cooling rate, not an actual temperature (i.e the wind chill can be -5 C when the actual temperature is +2 C, water won't freeze). I believe that as long as you stay below the freezing level (see your GFA - icing, turbulence and freezing level) you will be OK. You are more likely to run into problems with your gear if you are operating off of a slushy surface, like a runway, and then climb into colder air. Slush canl build up in the wheel wells and can then freeze in the colder air aloft. The risk of lake water accumulating and freezing is a lot less ;).

Dave J
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 22:57:28 -0600
Subject: [rebel-builders] float operations
From: wright.garry30@gmail.com
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com

Does anyone know at what temperature/densityaltitude/dewpoint combination
there is a risk of water from a lake freezing the gear on an amphib? Clearly
it will be higher than the freezing temperature of 0 deg C because of the
cooling effect of evaporation but ....??? Is there a rule of thumb saying no
water-ops below xx degrees C?

Garry




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Walter Klatt

[rebel-builders] float operations

Post by Walter Klatt » Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:06 pm

I have not flown much in freezing conditions, but have always wondered about
this, too. I did fly a few times, though, in the last few years, in the
winter here on the coast, when the temps were near freezing at the surface
and below freezing at my cruising altitude. After landing and taking off at
the lake (Harrison), I wondered if the gear would come down normally, but it
always did.

However, have not done this in severe freezing conditions where the OAT
would have been more than 10 degrees lower than freezing. If it is that
cold, don't think I want to go flying here anyway. We get enough warmer days
to fly in the winter, so I can be wait for that.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of David
Jackson
Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 10:36 AM
To: Rebel Builders
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] float operations


Garry,
I don't think you can get the temperature below freezing because of
evaporation. Even windchill is only a measure of an equivalent cooling
rate, not an actual temperature (i.e the wind chill can be -5 C when the
actual temperature is +2 C, water won't freeze). I believe that as long as
you stay below the freezing level (see your GFA - icing, turbulence and
freezing level) you will be OK. You are more likely to run into problems
with your gear if you are operating off of a slushy surface, like a runway,
and then climb into colder air. Slush canl build up in the wheel wells and
can then freeze in the colder air aloft. The risk of lake water
accumulating and freezing is a lot less ;).

Dave J
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 22:57:28 -0600
Subject: [rebel-builders] float operations
From: wright.garry30@gmail.com
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com

Does anyone know at what temperature/densityaltitude/dewpoint combination
there is a risk of water from a lake freezing the gear on an amphib?
Clearly
it will be higher than the freezing temperature of 0 deg C because of the
cooling effect of evaporation but ....??? Is there a rule of thumb saying
no
water-ops below xx degrees C?

Garry




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Garry Wright

[rebel-builders] float operations

Post by Garry Wright » Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:06 pm

Thanks Walter and David. There does seem to be some variability in reactions
to this question. One report sent directly to me said he had icing at 35 deg
air temp which agrees with the notion that evaporative cooling can
aggravate the problem. I would like to get some more responses - maybe Ken
can comment - he always gives a good engineering view.

Garry

On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 12:07 PM, Walter Klatt <Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca> wrote:
I have not flown much in freezing conditions, but have always wondered
about
this, too. I did fly a few times, though, in the last few years, in the
winter here on the coast, when the temps were near freezing at the surface
and below freezing at my cruising altitude. After landing and taking off at
the lake (Harrison), I wondered if the gear would come down normally, but
it
always did.

However, have not done this in severe freezing conditions where the OAT
would have been more than 10 degrees lower than freezing. If it is that
cold, don't think I want to go flying here anyway. We get enough warmer
days
to fly in the winter, so I can be wait for that.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
David
Jackson
Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 10:36 AM
To: Rebel Builders
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] float operations


Garry,
I don't think you can get the temperature below freezing because of
evaporation. Even windchill is only a measure of an equivalent cooling
rate, not an actual temperature (i.e the wind chill can be -5 C when the
actual temperature is +2 C, water won't freeze). I believe that as long as
you stay below the freezing level (see your GFA - icing, turbulence and
freezing level) you will be OK. You are more likely to run into problems
with your gear if you are operating off of a slushy surface, like a runway,
and then climb into colder air. Slush canl build up in the wheel wells and
can then freeze in the colder air aloft. The risk of lake water
accumulating and freezing is a lot less ;).

Dave J
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 22:57:28 -0600
Subject: [rebel-builders] float operations
From: wright.garry30@gmail.com
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com

Does anyone know at what temperature/densityaltitude/dewpoint combination
there is a risk of water from a lake freezing the gear on an amphib?
Clearly
it will be higher than the freezing temperature of 0 deg C because of the
cooling effect of evaporation but ....??? Is there a rule of thumb saying
no
water-ops below xx degrees C?

Garry




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David Jackson

[rebel-builders] float operations

Post by David Jackson » Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:06 pm

Icing and freezing are not the same thing (although at first glance you might think so). Icing can occur at an air temperature above freezing when supercooled droplets of water contact a metal surface. The supercooled droplets will lower the temperature of the metal surface and then freeze. Icing is more likely to occur at air temperatures at or near freezing. Carburetor icing is another kettle of fish and can occur at temperatures of 35 C under high humidity conditions.


Dave

Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 13:24:15 -0600
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] float operations
From: wright.garry30@gmail.com
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com

Thanks Walter and David. There does seem to be some variability in reactions
to this question. One report sent directly to me said he had icing at 35 deg
air temp which agrees with the notion that evaporative cooling can
aggravate the problem. I would like to get some more responses - maybe Ken
can comment - he always gives a good engineering view.

Garry

On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 12:07 PM, Walter Klatt <Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca> wrote:
I have not flown much in freezing conditions, but have always wondered
about
this, too. I did fly a few times, though, in the last few years, in the
winter here on the coast, when the temps were near freezing at the surface
and below freezing at my cruising altitude. After landing and taking off at
the lake (Harrison), I wondered if the gear would come down normally, but
it
always did.

However, have not done this in severe freezing conditions where the OAT
would have been more than 10 degrees lower than freezing. If it is that
cold, don't think I want to go flying here anyway. We get enough warmer
days
to fly in the winter, so I can be wait for that.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
David
Jackson
Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 10:36 AM
To: Rebel Builders
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] float operations


Garry,
I don't think you can get the temperature below freezing because of
evaporation. Even windchill is only a measure of an equivalent cooling
rate, not an actual temperature (i.e the wind chill can be -5 C when the
actual temperature is +2 C, water won't freeze). I believe that as long as
you stay below the freezing level (see your GFA - icing, turbulence and
freezing level) you will be OK. You are more likely to run into problems
with your gear if you are operating off of a slushy surface, like a runway,
and then climb into colder air. Slush canl build up in the wheel wells and
can then freeze in the colder air aloft. The risk of lake water
accumulating and freezing is a lot less ;).

Dave J
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 22:57:28 -0600
Subject: [rebel-builders] float operations
From: wright.garry30@gmail.com
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com

Does anyone know at what temperature/densityaltitude/dewpoint combination
there is a risk of water from a lake freezing the gear on an amphib?
Clearly
it will be higher than the freezing temperature of 0 deg C because of the
cooling effect of evaporation but ....??? Is there a rule of thumb saying
no
water-ops below xx degrees C?

Garry




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Bob Bjorn

[rebel-builders] float operations

Post by Bob Bjorn » Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:06 pm

Hi Guys, FWIW, From my days irrigating hay crops the rule was that
evaporation freezing could commence as high as + 4 degrees C. Scary stuff
ie. low temps and floats.
As a further, the charter outfit in Terrace B.C. used to fly floats in
the winter but not amphibs. they just landed on the snow with the floats.
Must remember that they were real experienced bush pilots.

Bob




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Garry Wright

[rebel-builders] float operations

Post by Garry Wright » Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:06 pm

Thanks Bob and David for the additional comments. I think I have what I need
now. I'm sure there is still some variety of opinion on this but the results
are common. Stay away from water when the outside air temperature gets down
into the 30'sF or much below 5C. Risk is there independent of the actual
physical mechanism involved in the freezing.

Garry

On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 8:21 PM, Bob Bjorn <bjornretd@xplornet.com> wrote:
Hi Guys, FWIW, From my days irrigating hay crops the rule was that
evaporation freezing could commence as high as + 4 degrees C. Scary stuff
ie. low temps and floats.
As a further, the charter outfit in Terrace B.C. used to fly floats in
the winter but not amphibs. they just landed on the snow with the floats.
Must remember that they were real experienced bush pilots.

Bob




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David Jackson

[rebel-builders] float operations

Post by David Jackson » Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:06 pm

The bigger concern should probably be the danger of ending up in the water when the water temperature is low. The risk of hypothermia in the event of something going wrong should be considered. I know I would not want to be in water at 5 C for any length of time without a survival suit of some sort.

Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 06:58:00 -0600
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] float operations
From: wright.garry30@gmail.com
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com

Thanks Bob and David for the additional comments. I think I have what I need
now. I'm sure there is still some variety of opinion on this but the results
are common. Stay away from water when the outside air temperature gets down
into the 30'sF or much below 5C. Risk is there independent of the actual
physical mechanism involved in the freezing.

Garry

On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 8:21 PM, Bob Bjorn <bjornretd@xplornet.com> wrote:
Hi Guys, FWIW, From my days irrigating hay crops the rule was that
evaporation freezing could commence as high as + 4 degrees C. Scary stuff
ie. low temps and floats.
As a further, the charter outfit in Terrace B.C. used to fly floats in
the winter but not amphibs. they just landed on the snow with the floats.
Must remember that they were real experienced bush pilots.

Bob




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Ken

[rebel-builders] float operations

Post by Ken » Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:06 pm

The lake may be above freezing but all the gear joints will have some
water in them. You can get water freezing above 0*C OAT due to
evaporative cooling (recall liquid water drops freezing on your
windshield after starting to drive in the morning). Indeed probably not
a major concern compared to dropping 2* in the thousand foot climb for a
legal airport arrival. I agree that it is wise to use 4 or 5 C as a
limit though as getting the nose gear stuck part way prevents returning
to the water and complicates an airport arrival. Think I'd lower the
gear right after takeoff from water if the temps were any colder.

BobP cautioned me to leave the gear down all winter if I left the floats
on which is probably wise. I've seen greased assemblies such as car
windows freeze up in winter just from condensation absorbed into the grease.

Ken

David Jackson wrote:
Garry, I don't think you can get the temperature below freezing
because of evaporation. Even windchill is only a measure of an
equivalent cooling rate, not an actual temperature (i.e the wind
chill can be -5 C when the actual temperature is +2 C, water won't
freeze). I believe that as long as you stay below the freezing level
(see your GFA - icing, turbulence and freezing level) you will be OK.
You are more likely to run into problems with your gear if you are
operating off of a slushy surface, like a runway, and then climb into
colder air. Slush canl build up in the wheel wells and can then
freeze in the colder air aloft. The risk of lake water accumulating
and freezing is a lot less ;).

Dave J
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 22:57:28 -0600 Subject: [rebel-builders]
float operations From: wright.garry30@gmail.com To:
rebel-builders@dcsol.com

Does anyone know at what temperature/densityaltitude/dewpoint
combination there is a risk of water from a lake freezing the gear
on an amphib? Clearly it will be higher than the freezing
temperature of 0 deg C because of the cooling effect of evaporation
but ....??? Is there a rule of thumb saying no water-ops below xx
degrees C?

Garry

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Garry Wright

[rebel-builders] float operations

Post by Garry Wright » Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:06 pm

Thanks Ken. This thread seems to have split on the subject. Not sure what
happened there but we all get them both. Much wisdom and experience
expressed by numerous pilots.

Garry


On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 8:45 PM, Ken <klehman@albedo.net> wrote:
The lake may be above freezing but all the gear joints will have some
water in them. You can get water freezing above 0*C OAT due to
evaporative cooling (recall liquid water drops freezing on your
windshield after starting to drive in the morning). Indeed probably not
a major concern compared to dropping 2* in the thousand foot climb for a
legal airport arrival. I agree that it is wise to use 4 or 5 C as a
limit though as getting the nose gear stuck part way prevents returning
to the water and complicates an airport arrival. Think I'd lower the
gear right after takeoff from water if the temps were any colder.

BobP cautioned me to leave the gear down all winter if I left the floats
on which is probably wise. I've seen greased assemblies such as car
windows freeze up in winter just from condensation absorbed into the
grease.

Ken

David Jackson wrote:
Garry, I don't think you can get the temperature below freezing
because of evaporation. Even windchill is only a measure of an
equivalent cooling rate, not an actual temperature (i.e the wind
chill can be -5 C when the actual temperature is +2 C, water won't
freeze). I believe that as long as you stay below the freezing level
(see your GFA - icing, turbulence and freezing level) you will be OK.
You are more likely to run into problems with your gear if you are
operating off of a slushy surface, like a runway, and then climb into
colder air. Slush canl build up in the wheel wells and can then
freeze in the colder air aloft. The risk of lake water accumulating
and freezing is a lot less ;).

Dave J
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 22:57:28 -0600 Subject: [rebel-builders]
float operations From: wright.garry30@gmail.com To:
rebel-builders@dcsol.com

Does anyone know at what temperature/densityaltitude/dewpoint
combination there is a risk of water from a lake freezing the gear
on an amphib? Clearly it will be higher than the freezing
temperature of 0 deg C because of the cooling effect of evaporation
but ....??? Is there a rule of thumb saying no water-ops below xx
degrees C?

Garry

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ray.mason

[rebel-builders] float operations

Post by ray.mason » Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:06 pm

Hi Garry

If you are worried about your controls freezing the commercial guys just keep
moving the the controls untill the waters gone.

Ray

On 10/28/2010 11:24 AM, wright.garry30@gmail.com wrote to rebel-builders:

-> Thanks Walter and David. There does seem to be some variability in
reactions
-> to this question. One report sent directly to me said he had icing at 35 deg
-> air temp which agrees with the notion that evaporative cooling can
-> aggravate the problem. I would like to get some more responses - maybe
Ken
-> can comment - he always gives a good engineering view.
->
-> Garry
->
-> On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 12:07 PM, Walter Klatt <Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca>
wrote:
->
-> > I have not flown much in freezing conditions, but have always wondered
-> > about
-> > this, too. I did fly a few times, though, in the last few years, in the
-> > winter here on the coast, when the temps were near freezing at the
surface
-> > and below freezing at my cruising altitude. After landing and taking off at
-> > the lake (Harrison), I wondered if the gear would come down normally,
but
-> > it
-> > always did.
-> >
-> > However, have not done this in severe freezing conditions where the
OAT
-> > would have been more than 10 degrees lower than freezing. If it is that
-> > cold, don't think I want to go flying here anyway. We get enough warmer
-> > days
-> > to fly in the winter, so I can be wait for that.
-> >
-> > Walter
-> >
-> > -----Original Message-----
-> > From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
-> > David
-> > Jackson
-> > Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 10:36 AM
-> > To: Rebel Builders
-> > Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] float operations
-> >
-> >
-> > Garry,
-> > I don't think you can get the temperature below freezing because of
-> > evaporation. Even windchill is only a measure of an equivalent cooling
-> > rate, not an actual temperature (i.e the wind chill can be -5 C when the
-> > actual temperature is +2 C, water won't freeze). I believe that as long
as
-> > you stay below the freezing level (see your GFA - icing, turbulence and
-> > freezing level) you will be OK. You are more likely to run into problems
-> > with your gear if you are operating off of a slushy surface, like a runway,
-> > and then climb into colder air. Slush canl build up in the wheel wells and
-> > can then freeze in the colder air aloft. The risk of lake water
-> > accumulating and freezing is a lot less ;).
-> >
-> > Dave J
-> >
-> > > Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 22:57:28 -0600
-> > > Subject: [rebel-builders] float operations
-> > > From: wright.garry30@gmail.com
-> > > To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
-> > >
-> > > Does anyone know at what temperature/densityaltitude/dewpoint
combination
-> > > there is a risk of water from a lake freezing the gear on an amphib?
-> > Clearly
-> > > it will be higher than the freezing temperature of 0 deg C because of
the
-> > > cooling effect of evaporation but ....??? Is there a rule of thumb saying
-> > no
-> > > water-ops below xx degrees C?
-> > >
-> > > Garry
-> > >
-> > >
-> > >
-> > >
-> > > -----------------------------------------------------------------
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-> > > username "rebel" password "builder"
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-> > > -----------------------------------------------------------------
-> > >
-> > >
-> > >
-> >
-> >
-> >
-> >
-> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
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-> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
-> >
-> >
-> >
-> >
-> >
-> >
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-> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
-> >
-> >
-> >
-> >
->




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Garry Wright

[rebel-builders] float operations

Post by Garry Wright » Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:06 pm

Thanks Ray. My controls are manual pump so that creates an exhaustion
problem, and from some of the earlier comments, the brakes may well lock up
and this approach does not address that problem.

Garry

On Sat, Nov 6, 2010 at 9:11 PM, <ray.mason@dcsol.com> wrote:
Hi Garry

If you are worried about your controls freezing the commercial guys just
keep
moving the the controls untill the waters gone.

Ray

On 10/28/2010 11:24 AM, wright.garry30@gmail.com wrote to rebel-builders:

-> Thanks Walter and David. There does seem to be some variability in
reactions
-> to this question. One report sent directly to me said he had icing at 35
deg
-> air temp which agrees with the notion that evaporative cooling can
-> aggravate the problem. I would like to get some more responses - maybe
Ken
-> can comment - he always gives a good engineering view.
->
-> Garry
->
-> On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 12:07 PM, Walter Klatt <Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca>
wrote:
->
-> > I have not flown much in freezing conditions, but have always wondered
-> > about
-> > this, too. I did fly a few times, though, in the last few years, in
the
-> > winter here on the coast, when the temps were near freezing at the
surface
-> > and below freezing at my cruising altitude. After landing and taking
off at
-> > the lake (Harrison), I wondered if the gear would come down normally,
but
-> > it
-> > always did.
-> >
-> > However, have not done this in severe freezing conditions where the
OAT
-> > would have been more than 10 degrees lower than freezing. If it is
that
-> > cold, don't think I want to go flying here anyway. We get enough
warmer
-> > days
-> > to fly in the winter, so I can be wait for that.
-> >
-> > Walter
-> >
-> > -----Original Message-----
-> > From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
-> > David
-> > Jackson
-> > Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 10:36 AM
-> > To: Rebel Builders
-> > Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] float operations
-> >
-> >
-> > Garry,
-> > I don't think you can get the temperature below freezing because of
-> > evaporation. Even windchill is only a measure of an equivalent
cooling
-> > rate, not an actual temperature (i.e the wind chill can be -5 C when
the
-> > actual temperature is +2 C, water won't freeze). I believe that as
long
as
-> > you stay below the freezing level (see your GFA - icing, turbulence
and
-> > freezing level) you will be OK. You are more likely to run into
problems
-> > with your gear if you are operating off of a slushy surface, like a
runway,
-> > and then climb into colder air. Slush canl build up in the wheel
wells and
-> > can then freeze in the colder air aloft. The risk of lake water
-> > accumulating and freezing is a lot less ;).
-> >
-> > Dave J
-> >
-> > > Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 22:57:28 -0600
-> > > Subject: [rebel-builders] float operations
-> > > From: wright.garry30@gmail.com
-> > > To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
-> > >
-> > > Does anyone know at what temperature/densityaltitude/dewpoint
combination
-> > > there is a risk of water from a lake freezing the gear on an amphib?
-> > Clearly
-> > > it will be higher than the freezing temperature of 0 deg C because
of
the
-> > > cooling effect of evaporation but ....??? Is there a rule of thumb
saying
-> > no
-> > > water-ops below xx degrees C?
-> > >
-> > > Garry
-> > >
-> > >
-> > >
-> > >
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-> > >
-> >
-> >
-> >
-> >
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-> >
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-> >
->




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