[rebel-builders] W&B

[Roland Kriening]

Thanks for the update Ron. Some of us are also considering the Jabiru so
this is great information.

Did you move your panel back as well as those installing Lycoming engines
do?

Roland
R56



-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Ron
Shannon
Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2010 6:52 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] W&B

By popular (Ontario?) request... the 254R weight & balance story follows.

Before weighing, neighbor Mike (A&P, ace auto/airplane painter & restorer)
guessed 846 lbs. Silly guy. Neighbor John (ex-UA pilot, Harmon Rocket
builder) guessed 914 lb. Boo! I worked up from 812 lbs., a number someone
had with a bungee gear, Rotax powered Rebel (Jim C.?) and worked my way up
with additions, etc., and came up with 877, my official guess. I also said
if it was 900 lbs. or under I'd be happy. So... the envelope please:

Empty weight = 901 lbs.

Empty CG = 10.85" aft leading edge - with main wheels @ -0.5" arm (spring
gear with 8.00x6.00 tires)

So John won, and because it's a whole pound over where I said I'd be
happy... I'm totally devasted!! Just kidding. Actually, over and over I made
choices to do mods, add equipment or beef things up, and don't regret any of
them.

For apples to oranges comparisons, following are *some* of the things that
may be of interest, and might (mostly) add weight compared to a fairly light
Rotax-powered Rebel, and some (mostly) very rough estimates of the *exchange
weights*. Most numbers below are just guesses, both as to weight and
comparison, of course, so there's no point in arguing the specifics, at
least not with me! :-) Weight savings (negative numbers) are in parentheses,
and items were either comparison weighed or otherwise known to be pretty
accurate:

Jabiru 3300 with muffler, starter, air/carb heat box, NACA vent - 30 lbs.
Spring gear -- estimates vary from 11-20 lbs. exchange weight
FUS30 - doubler, epoxy, etc. - 2 lbs.
FUS 29 - beefed up
Iron Design 8" pneumatic tailwheel and modified Champ leaf spring - 5 lbs.*
Overhead seat belt attach - 1.5 lbs.
Electric flaperon actuator, controller, wiring and switching - (1 lb.)*
Strobe system (single power pack and cables) - 9 lbs.*
B&C 20S second alternator, regulator, filter & wiring - 10 lbs.*
Heated pitot - 1 lb.
Thicker windows and lower door half window - 3.2 lbs.*
AeroCarb instead of Bing - (2 lbs.)
8.00 x 6.00 wheels and Carlisle Turf Glide tires -- ?
SL40 COM2, antenna and coax - 4 lbs.
Elaborate glass panel, dual EFIS/AHRS/magnetometers/OAT's, Mode S XPNDR, XM
WX, etc. -- (most of which is pretty light, maybe a savings)
PC680 battery - 3 lbs.
Four rudder cable pulleys & mounts - 1.5 lbs.
Three bay tanks - ea. with > 23 gal. usable BTW
Carpeted baggage wall/bulkhead w/XC ski port <g>
Various other fuse & wing reinforcements by orig. builder - 5-6 lbs.
Adel clamps under the cowl - huge
Miles of wire, 3-bus electrical design, lotsa switches - humongous
Electrical sleeving and heat shrink throughout - 200 lbs. ;-)

In addition, several items not yet bolted down were taped in place,
including door latch handle/locks, fire extinguisher, interior lights, A/P
servos, etc. Of course, the above doesn't necessarily equal the difference
between 812 and 901 lbs. Things not included are paint (tips & cowl are
painted, all mating surfaces and several others are primed, etc.), strut
fairings, skylights (eyebrows are in) and side windows. I may not paint the
fuse except for some color trim over polish & Ever Brite (0.1 lbs. per 100
sq. ft.) ala' Luscombe's -- no decision on that yet.

Personally, I'm happy with the 901 lbs., which will still leave room for
most of what I want to do, even within the LSA-mandated GW of 1320 lbs.
Furthermore, when you see all the camping gear come out of the back at
Oshkosh next year, just remember it may not look like it, but any and all
hard equipment you see will be made of hollowed out thin wall titanium!
;-) More importantly, I'm proud of the plane, as any builder should be, and
it will be a gas to fly.

Ron
254R

PS - I may not have time to respond to comments or questions, if any,
because I'm on the last kick to the (flyable) finish line here, and this
ain't no time to take the foot off the gas. [Ed.: mixed metaphors, again!]

PS2 - Incidentally, the Sensenich 68x38 composite covered wood prop (11
lbs.) produced a static RPM = 2820, which is right at the sweet spot for the
Jabiru 3300. Yay! Performance at cruise remains to be seen, of course.




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[Bob Patterson]

Hi Ron !

You might want to check with your friendly local FISDO (??)...
I have heard that 890 lb. empty is the limit for Sport Pilot --
something to do with 2 standard people, plus fuel for 1 hour + safety
..flying ... adding up to 1,320 lb. or less ....
(Could be wrong, of course ... ;-) ) Hope you can get
the correct number ... if there is one !

Not sure how you got a -0.5 arm on the main gear - it is customary
hereabouts to use the center of the axle as the datum point, so
it is always zero. Makes calculations easier for us lazy folks ! ;-)

My Rebel, with Rotax 80 hp 912, paint, leather interior, ICOM
radio, strobe - weighed 716 lb. empty. Tom's 80 hp. Rotax
Rebel, painted, weighed 725 lb.. My old Rebel with the O-235-C2C,
with painted trim & Val-com radio, metal prop, weighed 835 lb. empty......
The current Rebel, with leather interior, full panel of steam guages,
Bendix KX-135 radio/GPS, McKenzie STOL kit & Fife tips, plus
several heavy patches, and McCauley metal prop, weighs 979 lb....

All have bungee gear.

Congrats on getting her done !! Waiting for the flying pics !!

--
......bobp
bobp@prosumers.ca
http://www.amway.ca/BobPatterson
http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.ordermygift.com

Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender
and do not necessarily reflect the views of any other entities or persons.
Any action taken as a result of the contents of this email is totally the
responsibility of the reader.

On June 27, 2010 06:51:44 pm Ron Shannon wrote:

By popular (Ontario?) request... the 254R weight & balance story follows.

Before weighing, neighbor Mike (A&P, ace auto/airplane painter & restorer)
guessed 846 lbs. Silly guy. Neighbor John (ex-UA pilot, Harmon Rocket
builder) guessed 914 lb. Boo! I worked up from 812 lbs., a number someone
had with a bungee gear, Rotax powered Rebel (Jim C.?) and worked my way up
with additions, etc., and came up with 877, my official guess. I also said
if it was 900 lbs. or under I'd be happy. So... the envelope please:

Empty weight = 901 lbs.

Empty CG = 10.85" aft leading edge - with main wheels @ -0.5" arm (spring
gear with 8.00x6.00 tires)

So John won, and because it's a whole pound over where I said I'd be
happy... I'm totally devasted!! Just kidding. Actually, over and over I
made choices to do mods, add equipment or beef things up, and don't regret
any of them.

For apples to oranges comparisons, following are *some* of the things that
may be of interest, and might (mostly) add weight compared to a fairly
light Rotax-powered Rebel, and some (mostly) very rough estimates of the
*exchange weights*. Most numbers below are just guesses, both as to weight
and comparison, of course, so there's no point in arguing the specifics,
at least not with me! :-) Weight savings (negative numbers) are in
parentheses, and items were either comparison weighed or otherwise
known to be pretty accurate:

Jabiru 3300 with muffler, starter, air/carb heat box, NACA vent - 30 lbs.
Spring gear -- estimates vary from 11-20 lbs. exchange weight
FUS30 - doubler, epoxy, etc. - 2 lbs.
FUS 29 - beefed up
Iron Design 8" pneumatic tailwheel and modified Champ leaf spring - 5 lbs.*
Overhead seat belt attach - 1.5 lbs.
Electric flaperon actuator, controller, wiring and switching - (1 lb.)*
Strobe system (single power pack and cables) - 9 lbs.*
B&C 20S second alternator, regulator, filter & wiring - 10 lbs.*
Heated pitot - 1 lb.
Thicker windows and lower door half window - 3.2 lbs.*
AeroCarb instead of Bing - (2 lbs.)
8.00 x 6.00 wheels and Carlisle Turf Glide tires -- ?
SL40 COM2, antenna and coax - 4 lbs.
Elaborate glass panel, dual EFIS/AHRS/magnetometers/OAT's, Mode S XPNDR, XM
WX, etc. -- (most of which is pretty light, maybe a savings)
PC680 battery - 3 lbs.
Four rudder cable pulleys & mounts - 1.5 lbs.
Three bay tanks - ea. with > 23 gal. usable BTW
Carpeted baggage wall/bulkhead w/XC ski port <g>
Various other fuse & wing reinforcements by orig. builder - 5-6 lbs.
Adel clamps under the cowl - huge
Miles of wire, 3-bus electrical design, lotsa switches - humongous
Electrical sleeving and heat shrink throughout - 200 lbs. ;-)

In addition, several items not yet bolted down were taped in place,
including door latch handle/locks, fire extinguisher, interior lights, A/P
servos, etc. Of course, the above doesn't necessarily equal the difference
between 812 and 901 lbs. Things not included are paint (tips & cowl are
painted, all mating surfaces and several others are primed, etc.), strut
fairings, skylights (eyebrows are in) and side windows. I may not paint the
fuse except for some color trim over polish & Ever Brite (0.1 lbs. per 100
sq. ft.) ala' Luscombe's -- no decision on that yet.

Personally, I'm happy with the 901 lbs., which will still leave room for
most of what I want to do, even within the LSA-mandated GW of 1320 lbs.
Furthermore, when you see all the camping gear come out of the back at
Oshkosh next year, just remember it may not look like it, but any and all
hard equipment you see will be made of hollowed out thin wall titanium!
;-) More importantly, I'm proud of the plane, as any builder should be,
and it will be a gas to fly.

Ron
254R

PS - I may not have time to respond to comments or questions, if any,
because I'm on the last kick to the (flyable) finish line here, and this
ain't no time to take the foot off the gas. [Ed.: mixed metaphors, again!]

PS2 - Incidentally, the Sensenich 68x38 composite covered wood prop (11
lbs.) produced a static RPM = 2820, which is right at the sweet spot for
the Jabiru 3300. Yay! Performance at cruise remains to be seen, of course.

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[Ron Shannon]

Nope. There are two mounts available for the Jabiru on the Rebel. I have the
short one.

Did you move your panel back as well as those installing Lycoming engines
do?

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[Keith Leitch]

Bob,
I may also be wrong but the 890 ( or whatever it is)

[Ron Shannon]

There is no max empty weight for an amateur built experimental (ABE) whether
being flown by a light sport pilot or not. In fact, there are no regulations
within the ABE realm that even mention light sport anything, except that
qualifying ABE's can be flown by sport pilots. In extremes, the will come a
point when an inspector might feel the airplane was not airworthy (which is
all they're checking, technically) when, for example, it has an empty weight
that only allows one pilot to fly for 30 min. (i.e., can't go anywhere and
still have reserves).

There is a minimum useful load parameter within the ASTM standards that
govern SLSA's -- and by extension, ELSA's (which are different from ABE's
that can be flown by a sport pilot.) It doesn't apply to ABE's, but 254R
would qualify even if it did.

I have 419 lbs. useful load... which is plenty for a svelte guy like me to
go a long ways with a lot. :)

I don't know how the builders got some of those numbers, Bob, unless they
were the earlier light skin, light strut verstions, or whatever, but more
power to you... or whoever built them. 254R is a standard Rebel+, i.e.,
beefed up in several ways, as noted, but no hot tub. My Jabiru 3300
including starter, muffler & alternator was 172 lbs., all up, which is
heavier, but not all *that* much heavier than a current day Rotax 912S 100
HP

Ron



On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 5:11 PM, Bob Patterson <bobp@prosumers.ca> wrote:

Hi Ron !

You might want to check with your friendly local FISDO (??)...
I have heard that 890 lb. empty is the limit for Sport Pilot --
something to do with 2 standard people, plus fuel for 1 hour + safety
..flying ... adding up to 1,320 lb. or less ....
(Could be wrong, of course ... ;-) ) Hope you can get
the correct number ... if there is one !

Not sure how you got a -0.5 arm on the main gear - it is customary
hereabouts to use the center of the axle as the datum point, so
it is always zero. Makes calculations easier for us lazy folks ! ;-)

My Rebel, with Rotax 80 hp 912, paint, leather interior, ICOM
radio, strobe - weighed 716 lb. empty. Tom's 80 hp. Rotax
Rebel, painted, weighed 725 lb.. My old Rebel with the O-235-C2C,
with painted trim & Val-com radio, metal prop, weighed 835 lb. empty......
The current Rebel, with leather interior, full panel of steam guages,
Bendix KX-135 radio/GPS, McKenzie STOL kit & Fife tips, plus
several heavy patches, and McCauley metal prop, weighs 979 lb....

All have bungee gear.

Congrats on getting her done !! Waiting for the flying pics !!

--
......bobp
bobp@prosumers.ca
http://www.amway.ca/BobPatterson
http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.ordermygift.com

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[Keith Leitch]

Ron,
Thanks for a MUCH better explination then I gave. :)

[Ron Shannon]

No problem, Keith. As a former legal beagle who bought this project two
weeks before becoming the first "from scratch" sport pilot in most of N.
Calif., believe me, I studied the regs in exhaustive detail before plunking
down my money. With regard to ABE's and sport pilots, they haven't changed.

A std. (US) 170 lb. pilot with no baggage can almost top off those big
tanks, for 800 M+ range with reserves! With a 120 HP (quiet, sewing machine
smooth) simple, Jabiru 3300, burning under 5 GPH at cruise (readily achieved
with the AeroCarb or TBI 40 carb and mixture control) and all that gas, I
could easily go even 600 SM with a scarf, pajamas, laptop, credit card and
more -- if I ever wanted to, but never will. :) Instead, I can carry a lot
of stuff and still go 300-400 miles per leg, which is about right. And I am
not a single ounce over 170 lbs. I think. <g> Actually, those scales I *have
* modified, but not the ones weighing 254R as reported here.

In short, the 901 lbs. is the real number (my spiritual/ethical advisors
prevailed) for a plane with redundant everything that could do night IFR
(with a PPL PIC) with XM weather, Mode S traffic, 430W, second COM, vertical
steering A/P, strobes, etc. Most Rebels with whatever engine won't be
equipped like this, and should come in lighter. I did it because electronics
are my thing, and I was fortunate to be able to.

Now I gotta get back to the hard stuff that's left, like mounting the fire
extinguisher. Don't laugh, I specialize in making things like that
excruciatingly difficult.

Ron


On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 5:56 PM, Keith Leitch <im_planecrazy@yahoo.com>wrote:

Ron,
Thanks for a MUCH better explination then I gave. :) Rough day here and my
mind isn't quite up to speed.
Keith

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[Joe Ronco]

RON: You could have a problem carrying an adult passenger and full fuel (23
USG) as you will end up with only 111 lbs for passenger and/or baggage. Are
you planning to fly alone most of the time.?



J Joe



-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Ron
Shannon
Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2010 7:26 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] W&B



No problem, Keith. As a former legal beagle who bought this project two

weeks before becoming the first "from scratch" sport pilot in most of N.

Calif., believe me, I studied the regs in exhaustive detail before plunking

down my money. With regard to ABE's and sport pilots, they haven't changed.



A std. (US) 170 lb. pilot with no baggage can almost top off those big

tanks, for 800 M+ range with reserves! With a 120 HP (quiet, sewing machine

smooth) simple, Jabiru 3300, burning under 5 GPH at cruise (readily achieved

with the AeroCarb or TBI 40 carb and mixture control) and all that gas, I

could easily go even 600 SM with a scarf, pajamas, laptop, credit card and

more -- if I ever wanted to, but never will. :) Instead, I can carry a lot

of stuff and still go 300-400 miles per leg, which is about right. And I am

not a single ounce over 170 lbs. I think. <g> Actually, those scales I *have

* modified, but not the ones weighing 254R as reported here.



In short, the 901 lbs. is the real number (my spiritual/ethical advisors

prevailed) for a plane with redundant everything that could do night IFR

(with a PPL PIC) with XM weather, Mode S traffic, 430W, second COM, vertical

steering A/P, strobes, etc. Most Rebels with whatever engine won't be

equipped like this, and should come in lighter. I did it because electronics

are my thing, and I was fortunate to be able to.



Now I gotta get back to the hard stuff that's left, like mounting the fire

extinguisher. Don't laugh, I specialize in making things like that

excruciatingly difficult.



Ron





On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 5:56 PM, Keith Leitch
<im_planecrazy@yahoo.com>wrote:

Ron,

Thanks for a MUCH better explination then I gave. :) Rough day here and

my

mind isn't quite up to speed.

Keith

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[Ken]

There may be more to these stories. I'm not convinced that many of our
comparisons are meaningful.

I believe that 80 hp rotax airplane was recently weighed on certified
scales for the first time and that 725 lb figure is wildly out of date.

Then there are the "certified" 30 years ago scales. At the end of the
day though I think the weight is not as important as knowing the correct
C of G which you can get just fine with uncalibrated scales.

I believe the wrinkle in Canada is the requirement that the empty weight
plus 350 pounds for two bodies + half the horsepower expressed in lbs
can not exceed the gross weight. (I think I got that right) If it does
then the airframe just became a legal one seat (no passenger) aircraft
as I understand it. Don't know if that applies to ultra lights but
suspect that it does. It is one of the calculations on the application
for a C of A for an amateur built.

Ken

Bob Patterson wrote:

Hi Ron !

You might want to check with your friendly local FISDO (??)...
I have heard that 890 lb. empty is the limit for Sport Pilot --
something to do with 2 standard people, plus fuel for 1 hour + safety
..flying ... adding up to 1,320 lb. or less ....
(Could be wrong, of course ... ;-) ) Hope you can get
the correct number ... if there is one !

Not sure how you got a -0.5 arm on the main gear - it is customary
hereabouts to use the center of the axle as the datum point, so
it is always zero. Makes calculations easier for us lazy folks ! ;-)

My Rebel, with Rotax 80 hp 912, paint, leather interior, ICOM
radio, strobe - weighed 716 lb. empty. Tom's 80 hp. Rotax
Rebel, painted, weighed 725 lb.. My old Rebel with the O-235-C2C,
with painted trim & Val-com radio, metal prop, weighed 835 lb. empty......
The current Rebel, with leather interior, full panel of steam guages,
Bendix KX-135 radio/GPS, McKenzie STOL kit & Fife tips, plus
several heavy patches, and McCauley metal prop, weighs 979 lb....

All have bungee gear.

Congrats on getting her done !! Waiting for the flying pics !!

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[gary WOLF]

The minimum useful load (MUL) is a requirement for AB, Advanced UL, and Basic UL aircraft in Canada. It is 175 pounds per seat, plus half the hp expressed as pounds. This is meant to allow a plane to carry two people, albeit thin ones, plus enough fuel for one hour of engine running time. This is a very minimal number and is unrealistic for most of our body sizes and intended length of flight.

Gary Wolf


________________________________
From: Ken <klehman@albedo.net>
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Sent: Sun, June 27, 2010 10:16:04 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] W&B

There may be more to these stories. I'm not convinced that many of our
comparisons are meaningful.

I believe that 80 hp rotax airplane was recently weighed on certified
scales for the first time and that 725 lb figure is wildly out of date.

Then there are the "certified" 30 years ago scales. At the end of the
day though I think the weight is not as important as knowing the correct
C of G which you can get just fine with uncalibrated scales.

I believe the wrinkle in Canada is the requirement that the empty weight
plus 350 pounds for two bodies + half the horsepower expressed in lbs
can not exceed the gross weight. (I think I got that right) If it does
then the airframe just became a legal one seat (no passenger) aircraft
as I understand it. Don't know if that applies to ultra lights but
suspect that it does. It is one of the calculations on the application
for a C of A for an amateur built.

Ken

Bob Patterson wrote:
[quote]Hi Ron !