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[rebel-builders] Mainwheel Toe-in / Toe-out

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Garry Wright

[rebel-builders] Mainwheel Toe-in / Toe-out

Post by Garry Wright » Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:15 pm

I had some trouble with this for a couple of years. Turns out that
Murphy changed the length of the drag strut by about 7/8" early on and
mine ended up with gear that had two different length drag struts. It
was pretty vicious in trying to push you off the runway to the left
every time. I finally figured it out and it tamed down to very easy to
handle indeed. Any toe out at all will make these planes squirrelly.

Garry

mitchtl@dcsol.com wrote:
Is there any information regarding the proper toe-in / toe-out for the
rebel? Having a lot of control issues on take-off and landing, the aircraft
is very hard to keep straight.



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Drew Dalgleish

[rebel-builders] Mainwheel Toe-in / Toe-out

Post by Drew Dalgleish » Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:15 pm

There's been lots of discussion over the years and the number you're
looking for is 0.

At 07:45 PM 11/03/2010 -0900, you wrote:
Is there any information regarding the proper toe-in / toe-out for the
rebel? Having a lot of control issues on take-off and landing, the aircraft
is very hard to keep straight.
Drew



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Jeff Micheal

[rebel-builders] Mainwheel Toe-in / Toe-out

Post by Jeff Micheal » Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:15 pm

Your toe in/out is set at 0 or slightly toe-in.

Any toe-out in the set up will be increased upon landing as the gear spreads
out, which will cause the a/c to pull one direction or the other.

Cheers,
Jeff


On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 9:30 PM, Drew Dalgleish <drewjan@cabletv.on.ca>wrote:
There's been lots of discussion over the years and the number you're
looking for is 0.

At 07:45 PM 11/03/2010 -0900, you wrote:
Is there any information regarding the proper toe-in / toe-out for the
rebel? Having a lot of control issues on take-off and landing, the
aircraft
is very hard to keep straight.
Drew



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Billy Corbett

[rebel-builders] Mainwheel Toe-in / Toe-out

Post by Billy Corbett » Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:15 pm

I am new to this site (just bought a project Rebel) and having trouble opening the builder's list. Looking for a builder in eastern
VA.or ne NC. that I could visit for advice and comparison. I can tell by the toe-in discussion this morning that you guys are a
valuable resource. -Bill Corbett at Spotter37@cox.net---- Original Message -----
From: "Drew Dalgleish" <drewjan@cabletv.on.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, March 12, 2010 12:30 AM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Mainwheel Toe-in / Toe-out


There's been lots of discussion over the years and the number you're
looking for is 0.

At 07:45 PM 11/03/2010 -0900, you wrote:
Is there any information regarding the proper toe-in / toe-out for the
rebel? Having a lot of control issues on take-off and landing, the aircraft
is very hard to keep straight.
Drew



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mitchtl

[rebel-builders] Mainwheel Toe-in / Toe-out

Post by mitchtl » Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:15 pm

The drag struts look OK. We checked the Toe-In, it appears to be
millimeters off the zero.
The caster/camber ? of the gear appears to be bit off. The top of the tire
is leaning inwards approx. 1 cm. on the left, and 1.75 cm. on the right.
The takeoff on pavement is very hard to control, alternating pulling from
left to right. A 3 point takeoff on asphalt is not as bad. In the grass it
is quite manageable.

Terry

On 3/11/2010 8:02 PM, wright.garry30@gmail.com wrote to rebel-builders:

-> I had some trouble with this for a couple of years. Turns out that
-> Murphy changed the length of the drag strut by about 7/8" early on and
-> mine ended up with gear that had two different length drag struts. It
-> was pretty vicious in trying to push you off the runway to the left
-> every time. I finally figured it out and it tamed down to very easy to
-> handle indeed. Any toe out at all will make these planes squirrelly.
->
-> Garry
->
-> mitchtl@dcsol.com wrote:
-> > Is there any information regarding the proper toe-in / toe-out for the
-> > rebel? Having a lot of control issues on take-off and landing, the
aircraft
-> > is very hard to keep straight.
-> >
-> >
-> >
-> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
-> > List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
-> > username "rebel" password "builder"
-> > Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
-> > List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
-> >
-> >
-> >
-> >
->




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Bob Patterson

[rebel-builders] Mainwheel Toe-in / Toe-out

Post by Bob Patterson » Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:15 pm

Hi Terry !

You definitely have unusual handling there ! The inward tilt of the
tires suggests there might have been a hard landing or two - I would
strongly suggest removing your gear leg fairings and laying a straight-edge
down your front square tube gear legs. They may be bowed inward !

Another thought - when you checked toe out - did you raise the
tail to take off position, rolling forward a bit ? It can vary from
3 point .... especially if the bungees are a bit soft.

--
......bobp
bobp@prosumers.ca
http://www.amway.ca/BobPatterson
http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.ordermygift.com

Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender
and do not necessarily reflect the views of any other entities or persons.
Any action taken as a result of the contents of this email is totally the
responsibility of the reader.

On March 22, 2010 11:37:51 pm mitchtl@dcsol.com wrote:
The drag struts look OK. We checked the Toe-In, it appears to be
millimeters off the zero.
The caster/camber ? of the gear appears to be bit off. The top of the tire
is leaning inwards approx. 1 cm. on the left, and 1.75 cm. on the right.
The takeoff on pavement is very hard to control, alternating pulling from
left to right. A 3 point takeoff on asphalt is not as bad. In the grass it
is quite manageable.

Terry

On 3/11/2010 8:02 PM, wright.garry30@gmail.com wrote to rebel-builders:

-> I had some trouble with this for a couple of years. Turns out that
-> Murphy changed the length of the drag strut by about 7/8" early on and
-> mine ended up with gear that had two different length drag struts. It
-> was pretty vicious in trying to push you off the runway to the left
-> every time. I finally figured it out and it tamed down to very easy to
-> handle indeed. Any toe out at all will make these planes squirrelly.
->
-> Garry
->
-> mitchtl@dcsol.com wrote:
-> > Is there any information regarding the proper toe-in / toe-out for the
-> > rebel? Having a lot of control issues on take-off and landing, the
aircraft
-> > is very hard to keep straight.
-> >
-> >
-> >

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mitchtl

[rebel-builders] Mainwheel Toe-in / Toe-out

Post by mitchtl » Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:15 pm

Thanks Bob, I can't speak for the previous history, but will check for any
bowing soon. The toe-in was measured in 3 point, will try again with the
tail raised.
I do appreciate the input. Thanks.

Terry

On 3/22/2010 8:23 PM, bobp@prosumers.ca wrote to rebel-builders:

->
-> Hi Terry !
->
-> You definitely have unusual handling there ! The inward tilt of the
-> tires suggests there might have been a hard landing or two - I would
-> strongly suggest removing your gear leg fairings and laying a straight-edge
-> down your front square tube gear legs. They may be bowed inward !
->
-> Another thought - when you checked toe out - did you raise the
-> tail to take off position, rolling forward a bit ? It can vary from
-> 3 point .... especially if the bungees are a bit soft.
->
-> --
-> ......bobp
-> bobp@prosumers.ca
-> http://www.amway.ca/BobPatterson
-> http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
-> http://apatterson2.ordermygift.com
->
-> Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender
-> and do not necessarily reflect the views of any other entities or persons.
-> Any action taken as a result of the contents of this email is totally the
-> responsibility of the reader.
->
-> On March 22, 2010 11:37:51 pm mitchtl@dcsol.com wrote:
-> > The drag struts look OK. We checked the Toe-In, it appears to be
-> > millimeters off the zero.
-> > The caster/camber ? of the gear appears to be bit off. The top of the
tire
-> > is leaning inwards approx. 1 cm. on the left, and 1.75 cm. on the right.
-> > The takeoff on pavement is very hard to control, alternating pulling from
-> > left to right. A 3 point takeoff on asphalt is not as bad. In the grass it
-> > is quite manageable.
-> >
-> > Terry
-> >
-> > On 3/11/2010 8:02 PM, wright.garry30@gmail.com wrote to rebel-builders:
-> >
-> > -> I had some trouble with this for a couple of years. Turns out that
-> > -> Murphy changed the length of the drag strut by about 7/8" early on and
-> > -> mine ended up with gear that had two different length drag struts. It
-> > -> was pretty vicious in trying to push you off the runway to the left
-> > -> every time. I finally figured it out and it tamed down to very easy to
-> > -> handle indeed. Any toe out at all will make these planes squirrelly.
-> > ->
-> > -> Garry
-> > ->
-> > -> mitchtl@dcsol.com wrote:
-> > -> > Is there any information regarding the proper toe-in / toe-out
for the
-> > -> > rebel? Having a lot of control issues on take-off and landing, the
-> > aircraft
-> > -> > is very hard to keep straight.
-> > -> >
-> > -> >
-> > -> >




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Ken

[rebel-builders] Mainwheel Toe-in / Toe-out

Post by Ken » Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:15 pm

The top of my tires do lean inwards and handling is OK.

How many millimeters of toe? 2 mm is significant considering the small
tire size. Also if it can't be zero (things are never perfect) I have a
very strong preference for toe out rather than toe in...
Ken

mitchtl@dcsol.com wrote:
The drag struts look OK. We checked the Toe-In, it appears to be
millimeters off the zero.
The caster/camber ? of the gear appears to be bit off. The top of the tire
is leaning inwards approx. 1 cm. on the left, and 1.75 cm. on the right.
The takeoff on pavement is very hard to control, alternating pulling from
left to right. A 3 point takeoff on asphalt is not as bad. In the grass it
is quite manageable.

Terry

On 3/11/2010 8:02 PM, wright.garry30@gmail.com wrote to rebel-builders:

-> I had some trouble with this for a couple of years. Turns out that
-> Murphy changed the length of the drag strut by about 7/8" early on and
-> mine ended up with gear that had two different length drag struts. It
-> was pretty vicious in trying to push you off the runway to the left
-> every time. I finally figured it out and it tamed down to very easy to
-> handle indeed. Any toe out at all will make these planes squirrelly.
->
-> Garry
->
-> mitchtl@dcsol.com wrote:
-> > Is there any information regarding the proper toe-in / toe-out for the
-> > rebel? Having a lot of control issues on take-off and landing, the
aircraft
-> > is very hard to keep straight.
-

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Jeff Micheal

[rebel-builders] Mainwheel Toe-in / Toe-out

Post by Jeff Micheal » Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:15 pm

Ken,

The preferred is 0 or slight toe in....... With toe out setting when
landing, the angle of toe out will increase causing the tire to want to go
in that direction. Of course we all have soft landings and don't pound our
planes on the runway..... right :)

Cheers,
Jeff



On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 9:11 AM, Ken <klehman@albedo.net> wrote:
The top of my tires do lean inwards and handling is OK.

How many millimeters of toe? 2 mm is significant considering the small
tire size. Also if it can't be zero (things are never perfect) I have a
very strong preference for toe out rather than toe in...
Ken

mitchtl@dcsol.com wrote:
The drag struts look OK. We checked the Toe-In, it appears to be
millimeters off the zero.
The caster/camber ? of the gear appears to be bit off. The top of the
tire
is leaning inwards approx. 1 cm. on the left, and 1.75 cm. on the right.
The takeoff on pavement is very hard to control, alternating pulling from
left to right. A 3 point takeoff on asphalt is not as bad. In the grass
it
is quite manageable.

Terry

On 3/11/2010 8:02 PM, wright.garry30@gmail.com wrote to rebel-builders:

-> I had some trouble with this for a couple of years. Turns out that
-> Murphy changed the length of the drag strut by about 7/8" early on and
-> mine ended up with gear that had two different length drag struts. It
-> was pretty vicious in trying to push you off the runway to the left
-> every time. I finally figured it out and it tamed down to very easy to
-> handle indeed. Any toe out at all will make these planes squirrelly.
->
-> Garry
->
-> mitchtl@dcsol.com wrote:
-> > Is there any information regarding the proper toe-in / toe-out for
the
-> > rebel? Having a lot of control issues on take-off and landing, the
aircraft
-> > is very hard to keep straight.
-

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Ken

[rebel-builders] Mainwheel Toe-in / Toe-out

Post by Ken » Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:15 pm

Not getting that many greasers on pavement lately here Jeff although I'm
sure I land better when my wife isn't watching ;(

Actually in most cases I don't believe that the increasing tow out
theory on landing applies to a conventional gear Rebel or that it would
be significant or that it would be a bad thing...

I do agree that zero toe should be the target but I have come to believe
that toe out makes for more docile handling compared to toe in. Often
the down wind wheel has more weight and resultant traction. Toe in
increases the tendency to turn into wind (weathervane) resulting in more
rudder dancing to keep it going straight. Similarly a little tow out can
tend to make directional control somewhat self adjusting when
fishtailing as the weight shifts from side to side. ie weight shifts to
left wheel when aircraft tries to turn right, left wheel with toe out
reduces the force to the right compared to toe in and it is easier to
stop the fishtailing. Just my opinion FWIW from a guy who seldom accepts
any theories until I understand or at least observe the physics ;)

Ken

Jeff Micheal wrote:
Ken,

The preferred is 0 or slight toe in....... With toe out setting when
landing, the angle of toe out will increase causing the tire to want to go
in that direction. Of course we all have soft landings and don't pound our
planes on the runway..... right :)

Cheers,
Jeff



On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 9:11 AM, Ken <klehman@albedo.net> wrote:
The top of my tires do lean inwards and handling is OK.

How many millimeters of toe? 2 mm is significant considering the small
tire size. Also if it can't be zero (things are never perfect) I have a
very strong preference for toe out rather than toe in...
Ken

mitchtl@dcsol.com wrote:
The drag struts look OK. We checked the Toe-In, it appears to be
millimeters off the zero.
The caster/camber ? of the gear appears to be bit off. The top of the
tire
is leaning inwards approx. 1 cm. on the left, and 1.75 cm. on the right.
The takeoff on pavement is very hard to control, alternating pulling from
left to right. A 3 point takeoff on asphalt is not as bad. In the grass
it
is quite manageable.

Terry

On 3/11/2010 8:02 PM, wright.garry30@gmail.com wrote to rebel-builders:

-> I had some trouble with this for a couple of years. Turns out that
-> Murphy changed the length of the drag strut by about 7/8" early on and
-> mine ended up with gear that had two different length drag struts. It
-> was pretty vicious in trying to push you off the runway to the left
-> every time. I finally figured it out and it tamed down to very easy to
-> handle indeed. Any toe out at all will make these planes squirrelly.
->
-> Garry
->
-> mitchtl@dcsol.com wrote:
-> > Is there any information regarding the proper toe-in / toe-out for
the
-> > rebel? Having a lot of control issues on take-off and landing, the
aircraft
-> > is very hard to keep straight.
-

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Drew Dalgleish

[rebel-builders] Mainwheel Toe-in / Toe-out

Post by Drew Dalgleish » Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:15 pm

I agree with the slight toe out theory for preventing ground loops but for
normal landings straight is best. For you Ken the best solution would be to
just mount your floats ;)

At 10:13 PM 24/03/2010 -0400, you wrote:
Not getting that many greasers on pavement lately here Jeff although I'm
sure I land better when my wife isn't watching ;(

Actually in most cases I don't believe that the increasing tow out
theory on landing applies to a conventional gear Rebel or that it would
be significant or that it would be a bad thing...

I do agree that zero toe should be the target but I have come to believe
that toe out makes for more docile handling compared to toe in. Often
the down wind wheel has more weight and resultant traction. Toe in
increases the tendency to turn into wind (weathervane) resulting in more
rudder dancing to keep it going straight. Similarly a little tow out can
tend to make directional control somewhat self adjusting when
fishtailing as the weight shifts from side to side. ie weight shifts to
left wheel when aircraft tries to turn right, left wheel with toe out
reduces the force to the right compared to toe in and it is easier to
stop the fishtailing. Just my opinion FWIW from a guy who seldom accepts
any theories until I understand or at least observe the physics ;)

Ken

Jeff Micheal wrote:
Ken,

The preferred is 0 or slight toe in....... With toe out setting when
landing, the angle of toe out will increase causing the tire to want to go
in that direction. Of course we all have soft landings and don't pound our
planes on the runway..... right :)

Cheers,
Jeff



On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 9:11 AM, Ken <klehman@albedo.net> wrote:
The top of my tires do lean inwards and handling is OK.

How many millimeters of toe? 2 mm is significant considering the small
tire size. Also if it can't be zero (things are never perfect) I have a
very strong preference for toe out rather than toe in...
Ken

mitchtl@dcsol.com wrote: tire it the

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Drew



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mitchtl

[rebel-builders] Mainwheel Toe-in / Toe-out

Post by mitchtl » Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:15 pm

The toe-in was approx 2 mm. but it was measured with the tail down, so I
will re-check it with the tail up.
The inward lean didn't worry me so much as the different amount of lean
from left to right.
I don't know if these things are the causes of the handling problems, but I
will be checking for anything abnormal, this weekend.

Terry

On 3/24/2010 8:11 AM, klehman@albedo.net wrote to rebel-builders:

-> The top of my tires do lean inwards and handling is OK.
->
-> How many millimeters of toe? 2 mm is significant considering the small
-> tire size. Also if it can't be zero (things are never perfect) I have a
-> very strong preference for toe out rather than toe in...
-> Ken
->
-> mitchtl@dcsol.com wrote:
-> > The drag struts look OK. We checked the Toe-In, it appears to be
-> > millimeters off the zero.
-> > The caster/camber ? of the gear appears to be bit off. The top of the
tire
-> > is leaning inwards approx. 1 cm. on the left, and 1.75 cm. on the right.
-> > The takeoff on pavement is very hard to control, alternating pulling from
-> > left to right. A 3 point takeoff on asphalt is not as bad. In the grass it
-> > is quite manageable.
-> >
-> > Terry
-> >
-> > On 3/11/2010 8:02 PM, wright.garry30@gmail.com wrote to rebel-builders:
-> >
-> > -> I had some trouble with this for a couple of years. Turns out that
-> > -> Murphy changed the length of the drag strut by about 7/8" early on and
-> > -> mine ended up with gear that had two different length drag struts. It
-> > -> was pretty vicious in trying to push you off the runway to the left
-> > -> every time. I finally figured it out and it tamed down to very easy to
-> > -> handle indeed. Any toe out at all will make these planes squirrelly.
-> > ->
-> > -> Garry
-> > ->
-> > -> mitchtl@dcsol.com wrote:
-> > -> > Is there any information regarding the proper toe-in / toe-out
for the
-> > -> > rebel? Having a lot of control issues on take-off and landing, the
-> > aircraft
-> > -> > is very hard to keep straight.
-> > -




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