[rebel-builders] Fuel Pump

[Rebflyer]

NO Pump! I haven't seen a Cessna without fuel injection need a pump yet!
I have been down to 6 gal in real life and the static fuel flow took it
right to the bottom with no loss. Plenty of head pressure all the time.
IMHO of course! :-)
Curt Martin
N97MR




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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

I'm with Curt... if you have one pump... you have to have two! Just more
things to ruin your day...

----- Original Message -----
From: <Rebflyer@aol.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2010 8:37 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Fuel Pump

NO Pump! I haven't seen a Cessna without fuel injection need a pump
yet!
I have been down to 6 gal in real life and the static fuel flow took it
right to the bottom with no loss. Plenty of head pressure all the time.
IMHO of course! :-)
Curt Martin
N97MR




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[Randy Riggs]

Thanks Curt & Wayne, that's what I was thinking and hoping to hear from
builders. I'll remove it, again, and put it in the parts bin.
Randy

----- Original Message -----
From: <Rebflyer@aol.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2010 5:37 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Fuel Pump

NO Pump! I haven't seen a Cessna without fuel injection need a pump
yet!
I have been down to 6 gal in real life and the static fuel flow took it
right to the bottom with no loss. Plenty of head pressure all the time.
IMHO of course! :-)
Curt Martin
N97MR




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[Walter Klatt]

Just gravity feed for me. My new engine has consumed 18+ gph on a steep
climb out, low fuel, and with a fuel sensor at my gascolator that uses up
some head pressure. So if it can handle that, a 320 should be good under any
condition.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Wayne
G. O'Shea
Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2010 5:50 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Fuel Pump

I'm with Curt... if you have one pump... you have to have two! Just more
things to ruin your day...

----- Original Message -----
From: <Rebflyer@aol.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2010 8:37 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Fuel Pump

NO Pump! I haven't seen a Cessna without fuel injection need a pump
yet!
I have been down to 6 gal in real life and the static fuel flow took it
right to the bottom with no loss. Plenty of head pressure all the time.
IMHO of course! :-)
Curt Martin
N97MR




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[Eric Fogelin]

A high wing carbureted airplane should not need a fuel pump. And a Rebel or
Elite doesn't. Save weight and reduce points of failure.

Every builder should perform a fuel flow test on each tank before first
flight. This tests each fuel line and helps get rid of construction debris.

Unhook your fuel line to the carburetor and measure the fuel flow rate at
full tanks and for the last 5 gallons. I timed draining the fuel into a 5
gallon gas can. Here are my test results for right and left wing gravity
feed on my Murphy Elite (don't smoke during the test):

----
Right and left fuel tank capacity: 24 gallons. Right wing fuel flow: full
tank - 44 gals/hour, last 5 gallons - 37 gals/hour. Left wing fuel flow:
full tank - 46 gals/hour, last 5 gallons - 44 gals/hr.
----

As you can see, you have huge fuel flow for an O-320 or O-360 even on one
tank.

Eric
N645E

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Randy
Riggs
Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2010 4:12 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] Fuel Pump

I'm working firewall forward and have a question regarding fuel pumps. My
O-320 came with an engine driven fuel pump, I removed it thinking gravity
would give me plenty of pressure.
I had to pull the engine off to change out recalled ECI cylinders and the
mechanic told me I should have left the fuel pump on. He felt it would give
consistent pressure.
What are all you guys doing in the Rebel world? Pump or no pump.
Thanks
Randy R320



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[Charlie Eubanks]

Eric

Thanks for the info on the fuel flow. I hope o be doing that this
spring/summer.

Were your measurements taken in a normal three point attitude or at an
elevated angle?
Charlie E. 802R
----- Original Message -----
From: "Eric Fogelin" <elist@whidbey.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2010 10:53 PM
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Fuel Pump

A high wing carbureted airplane should not need a fuel pump. And a Rebel or
Elite doesn't. Save weight and reduce points of failure.

Every builder should perform a fuel flow test on each tank before first
flight. This tests each fuel line and helps get rid of construction
debris.

Unhook your fuel line to the carburetor and measure the fuel flow rate at
full tanks and for the last 5 gallons. I timed draining the fuel into a 5
gallon gas can. Here are my test results for right and left wing gravity
feed on my Murphy Elite (don't smoke during the test):

----
Right and left fuel tank capacity: 24 gallons. Right wing fuel flow: full
tank - 44 gals/hour, last 5 gallons - 37 gals/hour. Left wing fuel flow:
full tank - 46 gals/hour, last 5 gallons - 44 gals/hr.
----

As you can see, you have huge fuel flow for an O-320 or O-360 even on one
tank.

Eric
N645E

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Randy
Riggs
Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2010 4:12 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] Fuel Pump

I'm working firewall forward and have a question regarding fuel pumps. My
O-320 came with an engine driven fuel pump, I removed it thinking gravity
would give me plenty of pressure.
I had to pull the engine off to change out recalled ECI cylinders and the
mechanic told me I should have left the fuel pump on. He felt it would
give
consistent pressure.
What are all you guys doing in the Rebel world? Pump or no pump.
Thanks
Randy R320



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[elist]

These fuel tests were done in level flight attitude.

I also did other fuel tests in 3-point and more importantly nose down,
landing attitude. I was surprised how well the rear-only fuel pickups work.
In nose down attitude I think unusable fuel went from 0.6 gallons to 1.0
gallons (per tank).

But do this test yourself...and don't rely on those last few triclkes.

Eric
N645E

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Charlie Eubanks" <charlie@troyairpark.com>
Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 6:14 AM
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Fuel Pump

Eric

Thanks for the info on the fuel flow. I hope o be doing that this
spring/summer.

Were your measurements taken in a normal three point attitude or at an
elevated angle?
Charlie E. 802R
----- Original Message -----
From: "Eric Fogelin" <elist@whidbey.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2010 10:53 PM
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Fuel Pump

A high wing carbureted airplane should not need a fuel pump. And a Rebel
or
Elite doesn't. Save weight and reduce points of failure.

Every builder should perform a fuel flow test on each tank before first
flight. This tests each fuel line and helps get rid of construction
debris.

Unhook your fuel line to the carburetor and measure the fuel flow rate at
full tanks and for the last 5 gallons. I timed draining the fuel into a 5
gallon gas can. Here are my test results for right and left wing gravity
feed on my Murphy Elite (don't smoke during the test):

----
Right and left fuel tank capacity: 24 gallons. Right wing fuel flow: full
tank - 44 gals/hour, last 5 gallons - 37 gals/hour. Left wing fuel flow:
full tank - 46 gals/hour, last 5 gallons - 44 gals/hr.
----

As you can see, you have huge fuel flow for an O-320 or O-360 even on one
tank.

Eric
N645E

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Randy
Riggs
Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2010 4:12 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] Fuel Pump

I'm working firewall forward and have a question regarding fuel pumps. My
O-320 came with an engine driven fuel pump, I removed it thinking gravity
would give me plenty of pressure.
I had to pull the engine off to change out recalled ECI cylinders and the
mechanic told me I should have left the fuel pump on. He felt it would
give
consistent pressure.
What are all you guys doing in the Rebel world? Pump or no pump.
Thanks
Randy R320



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[Charlie Eubanks]

Eric

Thanks for the reply I am happy to hear about the useable fuel quantity
remaining with the nose down.

The reason I asked about the attitude was, when I ran fuel flow test on my
Glastar (which because of their folding wings had only a mid-point fuel
pickup) they suggested I run the test when the nose was elevated to emulate
the best angle of climb. When I got down too 2 gal's remaining in the tank
the flow rate was only19.5 gals/hr./ per tank. As I understand it, since I
was building an experimental aircraft I was not necessarily bound by FAA's
flow rate requirements of 1-1/2 times the max fuel consumed by a certified
0-320 (21Gal/hr). I decided to leave the fuel pump in tact. It doesn't
appear this will be an issue since I am installing a 0-235, but as you
suggest I will certainly perform my own fuel flow test.

Thanks again

Charlie E. 802R

----- Original Message -----
From: "elist" <elist@whidbey.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 1:48 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Fuel Pump

These fuel tests were done in level flight attitude.

I also did other fuel tests in 3-point and more importantly nose down,
landing attitude. I was surprised how well the rear-only fuel pickups
work.
In nose down attitude I think unusable fuel went from 0.6 gallons to 1.0
gallons (per tank).

But do this test yourself...and don't rely on those last few triclkes.

Eric
N645E

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Charlie Eubanks" <charlie@troyairpark.com>
Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 6:14 AM
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Fuel Pump

Eric

Thanks for the info on the fuel flow. I hope o be doing that this
spring/summer.

Were your measurements taken in a normal three point attitude or at an
elevated angle?
Charlie E. 802R
----- Original Message -----
From: "Eric Fogelin" <elist@whidbey.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2010 10:53 PM
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Fuel Pump

A high wing carbureted airplane should not need a fuel pump. And a Rebel
or
Elite doesn't. Save weight and reduce points of failure.

Every builder should perform a fuel flow test on each tank before first
flight. This tests each fuel line and helps get rid of construction
debris.

Unhook your fuel line to the carburetor and measure the fuel flow rate
at
full tanks and for the last 5 gallons. I timed draining the fuel into a
5
gallon gas can. Here are my test results for right and left wing gravity
feed on my Murphy Elite (don't smoke during the test):

----
Right and left fuel tank capacity: 24 gallons. Right wing fuel flow:
full
tank - 44 gals/hour, last 5 gallons - 37 gals/hour. Left wing fuel flow:
full tank - 46 gals/hour, last 5 gallons - 44 gals/hr.
----

As you can see, you have huge fuel flow for an O-320 or O-360 even on
one
tank.

Eric
N645E

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Randy
Riggs
Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2010 4:12 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] Fuel Pump

I'm working firewall forward and have a question regarding fuel pumps.
My
O-320 came with an engine driven fuel pump, I removed it thinking
gravity
would give me plenty of pressure.
I had to pull the engine off to change out recalled ECI cylinders and
the
mechanic told me I should have left the fuel pump on. He felt it would
give
consistent pressure.
What are all you guys doing in the Rebel world? Pump or no pump.
Thanks
Randy R320



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[Ron Shannon]

I want to know (and plan to test soon) the flow rate with low tanks in a
behind-the-power-curve slow flight attitude -- a higher attitude than best
climb. Depending on engine, VG's, etc., attitude at that angle of attack can
be pretty high, along with high power requirements. Others will know better
than me, but I'm guessing it could be 18-20 deg...? I want to be sure that
if I have to slow way down to make tight turns in a canyon -- or just
practice slow flight -- I won't starve the engine.

As I recall from seeing Eric's beautiful work up close, he has a very fine
and smooth one piece fuel line from the tank all the way down to a single
junction valve. Those of us who unfortunately have more twists, turns and/or
fittings slowing things down may have considerably lower flow rates.

Ron
254R


On Fri, Feb 26, 2010 at 1:18 PM, Charlie Eubanks <charlie@troyairpark.com>wrote:

Eric

Thanks for the reply I am happy to hear about the useable fuel quantity
remaining with the nose down.

The reason I asked about the attitude was, when I ran fuel flow test on my
Glastar (which because of their folding wings had only a mid-point fuel
pickup) they suggested I run the test when the nose was elevated to emulate
the best angle of climb. When I got down too 2 gal's remaining in the tank
the flow rate was only19.5 gals/hr./ per tank. As I understand it, since I
was building an experimental aircraft I was not necessarily bound by FAA's
flow rate requirements of 1-1/2 times the max fuel consumed by a certified
0-320 (21Gal/hr). I decided to leave the fuel pump in tact. It doesn't
appear this will be an issue since I am installing a 0-235, but as you
suggest I will certainly perform my own fuel flow test.

Thanks again

Charlie E. 802R

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[Charlie Eubanks]

Ron

That's very interesting. I had not thought of the VG's and their high deck
angle, fuel flow could be come marginal. Having the Rebels fuel port at the
rear of the tank should help though. Will look forward to hear what you
find. I wonder if others have already tested fuel flow with their VGs?

Charlie E. 802R



----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Shannon" <rshannon@cruzcom.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 3:49 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Fuel Pump

I want to know (and plan to test soon) the flow rate with low tanks in a
behind-the-power-curve slow flight attitude -- a higher attitude than best
climb. Depending on engine, VG's, etc., attitude at that angle of attack
can
be pretty high, along with high power requirements. Others will know
better
than me, but I'm guessing it could be 18-20 deg...? I want to be sure that
if I have to slow way down to make tight turns in a canyon -- or just
practice slow flight -- I won't starve the engine.

As I recall from seeing Eric's beautiful work up close, he has a very fine
and smooth one piece fuel line from the tank all the way down to a single
junction valve. Those of us who unfortunately have more twists, turns
and/or
fittings slowing things down may have considerably lower flow rates.

Ron
254R


On Fri, Feb 26, 2010 at 1:18 PM, Charlie Eubanks
<charlie@troyairpark.com>wrote:

Eric

Thanks for the reply I am happy to hear about the useable fuel quantity
remaining with the nose down.

The reason I asked about the attitude was, when I ran fuel flow test on
my
Glastar (which because of their folding wings had only a mid-point fuel
pickup) they suggested I run the test when the nose was elevated to
emulate
the best angle of climb. When I got down too 2 gal's remaining in the
tank
the flow rate was only19.5 gals/hr./ per tank. As I understand it, since
I
was building an experimental aircraft I was not necessarily bound by
FAA's
flow rate requirements of 1-1/2 times the max fuel consumed by a
certified
0-320 (21Gal/hr). I decided to leave the fuel pump in tact. It doesn't
appear this will be an issue since I am installing a 0-235, but as you
suggest I will certainly perform my own fuel flow test.

Thanks again

Charlie E. 802R

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