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[rebel-builders] control column mount

Converted from Wildcat! database. (read only)
Wayne G. O'Shea

[rebel-builders] control column mount

Post by Wayne G. O'Shea » Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:03 pm

?? Double end bracket ?? I just drill and tap the holes, for AN3 bolts, for
the right side... so that it's removable.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Shannon" <rshannon@cruzcom.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 12:18 AM
Subject: [rebel-builders] control column mount

There's been mention a few times of using a double end bracket to allow
removal of the control column for under panel maintenance, etc., but I'm
having a hard time visualizing how that's supposed to be done. Does anyone
have a photo or sketch of that design? Or perhaps just further explanation
suitable for the Dept. of Dunce?

Ron
254R
http://n254mr.com




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Ron Shannon

[rebel-builders] control column mount

Post by Ron Shannon » Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:03 pm

Thanks, Wayne. That would be possible in new construction, but when I got
the project the holes were already drilled for 3/16" rivets, so there's
nothing left to tap, at least for 10/32 threads. With no stop nut or
equivalent, have you seen any problems with the bolts loosening?

The only solutions I've come up with is to either drill and tap for AN4 or
use rivnuts for AN3, although the grip length needed is borderline for the
max grip AN3 rivnuts I've found so far. Absent some other solution, I'm
inclined to drll & tap for AN4, installed with some Loctite. That would
leave the option of drilling to a full 1/4" insertion hole the AN3 rivnuts
need later on if necessary.

Ron


On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 7:00 AM, Wayne G. O'Shea <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>wrote:
?? Double end bracket ?? I just drill and tap the holes, for AN3 bolts, for
the right side... so that it's removable.



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Ken

[rebel-builders] control column mount

Post by Ken » Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:03 pm

Another way for guys with cut in half carry throughs or moved firewalls
is to cut off the bracket bottom flanges. Rivet angles to the floor and
bolt the bracket to the angles.

To be honest though, despite installing and modifying several pieces of
electronics, I've yet to remove the control column despite hanging
upside down on the seats several times per year. Makes me think this is
not worth very much extra effort if you can't quickly do it Wayne's way.

Ken

Wayne G. O'Shea wrote:
?? Double end bracket ?? I just drill and tap the holes, for AN3 bolts, for
the right side... so that it's removable.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Shannon" <rshannon@cruzcom.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 12:18 AM
Subject: [rebel-builders] control column mount

There's been mention a few times of using a double end bracket to allow
removal of the control column for under panel maintenance, etc., but I'm
having a hard time visualizing how that's supposed to be done. Does anyone
have a photo or sketch of that design? Or perhaps just further explanation
suitable for the Dept. of Dunce?

Ron
254R
http://n254mr.com



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Charlie Eubanks

[rebel-builders] control column mount

Post by Charlie Eubanks » Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:03 pm

Ron
I drilled and riveted in plate nuts. It will take a little rework but in
your case maybe you could build the right side bearing holder like Roger
Hoffman did. Check out his website on the Rebel list.
Charlie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Shannon" <rshannon@cruzcom.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 11:56 AM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] control column mount

Thanks, Wayne. That would be possible in new construction, but when I got
the project the holes were already drilled for 3/16" rivets, so there's
nothing left to tap, at least for 10/32 threads. With no stop nut or
equivalent, have you seen any problems with the bolts loosening?

The only solutions I've come up with is to either drill and tap for AN4 or
use rivnuts for AN3, although the grip length needed is borderline for the
max grip AN3 rivnuts I've found so far. Absent some other solution, I'm
inclined to drll & tap for AN4, installed with some Loctite. That would
leave the option of drilling to a full 1/4" insertion hole the AN3 rivnuts
need later on if necessary.

Ron


On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 7:00 AM, Wayne G. O'Shea
<oifa@irishfield.on.ca>wrote:
?? Double end bracket ?? I just drill and tap the holes, for AN3 bolts,
for
the right side... so that it's removable.



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Ron Shannon

[rebel-builders] control column mount

Post by Ron Shannon » Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:03 pm

Using separate angle brackets is quite an appealing idea. As for the
desirability of movability to begin with, I may have more stuff crammed in
and behind that panel than any other Rebel to date. It's relatively
organized, but still quite a thicket. After spending the better part of a
year under there, my back hurts just thinking about lying flat, much less
draped over seats and/or control column. I'm guessing you must do a lot of
yoga. :-) As I should, no doubt.

Thanks.

Ron


On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 10:10 AM, Ken <klehman@albedo.net> wrote:
Another way for guys with cut in half carry throughs or moved firewalls
is to cut off the bracket bottom flanges. Rivet angles to the floor and
bolt the bracket to the angles.

To be honest though, despite installing and modifying several pieces of
electronics, I've yet to remove the control column despite hanging
upside down on the seats several times per year. Makes me think this is
not worth very much extra effort if you can't quickly do it Wayne's way.

Ken



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Ron Shannon

[rebel-builders] control column mount

Post by Ron Shannon » Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:03 pm

Good reminder, Charlie. I've gotten so many great ideas from Roger's work I
don't know why I haven't thought to look there yet on this issue.

Ron


On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 10:13 AM, Charlie Eubanks <charlie@troyairpark.com>wrote:
Ron
I drilled and riveted in plate nuts. It will take a little rework but in
your case maybe you could build the right side bearing holder like Roger
Hoffman did. Check out his website on the Rebel list.
Charlie


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Ron Shannon

[rebel-builders] control column mount

Post by Ron Shannon » Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:03 pm

For others interested in this topic, here's a link to a photo of Roger
Hoffman's installation, where he used separate floor mounted angles for
attaching the control column mounting brackets, much as Ken suggested. *
http://tinyurl.com/ydfsxnp* Looks like the way to go.

Ron


On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 10:40 AM, Ron Shannon <rshannon@cruzcom.com> wrote:
Good reminder, Charlie. I've gotten so many great ideas from Roger's work I
don't know why I haven't thought to look there yet on this issue.

Ron



On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 10:13 AM, Charlie Eubanks <charlie@troyairpark.com>wrote:
Ron
I drilled and riveted in plate nuts. It will take a little rework but in
your case maybe you could build the right side bearing holder like Roger
Hoffman did. Check out his website on the Rebel list.
Charlie


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Wayne G. O'Shea

[rebel-builders] control column mount

Post by Wayne G. O'Shea » Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:03 pm

I'm having email issues right now .. and not getting stuff from the list..
but I just read the archives.

In Roger's pictures he has the delrin hat bearings in backwards. I've seen
this done on a few.. and it does make it so you can remove the bearing and
get the column out of the way. It isn't however how the column was intended
to run on the delrin for a bearing surface. Idea was for the large aluminum
washer to run on the wide face of the "hat"... not the small face of the
bushing wall.

Probably not a huge deal.. but thought I better throw it out there for
debate! lol


----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Shannon" <rshannon@cruzcom.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 12:18 AM
Subject: [rebel-builders] control column mount

There's been mention a few times of using a double end bracket to allow
removal of the control column for under panel maintenance, etc., but I'm
having a hard time visualizing how that's supposed to be done. Does anyone
have a photo or sketch of that design? Or perhaps just further explanation
suitable for the Dept. of Dunce?

Ron
254R
http://n254mr.com




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Drew Dalgleish

[rebel-builders] control column mount

Post by Drew Dalgleish » Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:03 pm

My column got premenantly mounted before I started on the panel so I've
spent lots of time on my back on top of the column. I found that a thick
cushion off an old couch made laying under the panel reasonably comfortable
and it had the added bonus of raising my shoulders up high enough that I
was in a good working position.

At 01:10 PM 06/02/2010 -0500, you wrote:
Another way for guys with cut in half carry throughs or moved firewalls
is to cut off the bracket bottom flanges. Rivet angles to the floor and
bolt the bracket to the angles.

To be honest though, despite installing and modifying several pieces of
electronics, I've yet to remove the control column despite hanging
upside down on the seats several times per year. Makes me think this is
not worth very much extra effort if you can't quickly do it Wayne's way.

Ken

Wayne G. O'Shea wrote:
?? Double end bracket ?? I just drill and tap the holes, for AN3 bolts,
for
the right side... so that it's removable.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Shannon" <rshannon@cruzcom.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 12:18 AM
Subject: [rebel-builders] control column mount

There's been mention a few times of using a double end bracket to allow
removal of the control column for under panel maintenance, etc., but I'm
having a hard time visualizing how that's supposed to be done. Does anyone
have a photo or sketch of that design? Or perhaps just further explanation
suitable for the Dept. of Dunce?

Ron
254R
http://n254mr.com



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Drew



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David A. Ricker

[rebel-builders] control column mount

Post by David A. Ricker » Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:03 pm

Ron, Guys

If you already have drilled holes to deal with like Ron then you could
put Key Lock Inserts onto the structure for the threaded hole.
http://www.mcmaster.com/#key-locking-inserts/=5pd9b3. I'm assuming
there is enough thickness to accept the insert of course.

For those who haven't seen them, Key Locks are basically a bushing with
external and internal threads that can be used for repair of stripped
threads or to give a stronger receptacle in materials like aluminum
which are not great when tapped. The insert gives you a stronger
connection in the parent material for your smaller size fastener. The
inserts are threaded in place and the locking pins are driven between
the parent material and the insert locking them in place. We use them
at work in designing custom aluminum cranes.

These aren't to be confused with Helicoils, different beast.

Dave

Ron Shannon wrote:
Thanks, Wayne. That would be possible in new construction, but when I got
the project the holes were already drilled for 3/16" rivets, so there's
nothing left to tap, at least for 10/32 threads. With no stop nut or
equivalent, have you seen any problems with the bolts loosening?

The only solutions I've come up with is to either drill and tap for AN4 or
use rivnuts for AN3, although the grip length needed is borderline for the
max grip AN3 rivnuts I've found so far. Absent some other solution, I'm
inclined to drll & tap for AN4, installed with some Loctite. That would
leave the option of drilling to a full 1/4" insertion hole the AN3 rivnuts
need later on if necessary.

Ron


On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 7:00 AM, Wayne G. O'Shea <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>wrote:

?? Double end bracket ?? I just drill and tap the holes, for AN3 bolts, for
the right side... so that it's removable.




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Ron Shannon

[rebel-builders] control column mount

Post by Ron Shannon » Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:03 pm

Thanks, Dave. Looks like a good fastener for many applications. I wasn't
familiar with these and am glad to know about them. However, personally I
think I'm going to go with the floor mounted angles because A) I have the
materials already, B) I won't have to drill larger holes into the carry
through (looks like the thin Key Locks with internal 10-32 thread need an
"I" drill (~0.267") hole for their 5/16" external thread), and C) I'll have
"above ground" lock nuts that I can see.

Ron
254R


On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 2:14 PM, David A. Ricker <daricker@ns.sympatico.ca>wrote:
Ron, Guys

If you already have drilled holes to deal with like Ron then you could
put Key Lock Inserts onto the structure for the threaded hole.
http://www.mcmaster.com/#key-locking-inserts/=5pd9b3. I'm assuming
there is enough thickness to accept the insert of course.

For those who haven't seen them, Key Locks are basically a bushing with
external and internal threads that can be used for repair of stripped
threads or to give a stronger receptacle in materials like aluminum
which are not great when tapped. The insert gives you a stronger
connection in the parent material for your smaller size fastener. The
inserts are threaded in place and the locking pins are driven between
the parent material and the insert locking them in place. We use them
at work in designing custom aluminum cranes.

These aren't to be confused with Helicoils, different beast.

Dave



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schaumr

[rebel-builders] control column mount

Post by schaumr » Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:03 pm

I have yet to drill 3/16 holes into FUS05 for the right or left side, so Wayne's
idea of tapping for AN3s is still totally doable for me. Wouldn't it be nice
though, to have some really sturdy threads you'd never have to worry about
stripping?

This then got me thinking about Ron's ubiquitous clickbond nutplates.....could
one "fish" some of these through the gear attach holes on either side of the
FUS05s?

You would have to:
1) Stick some stiff wire through the intended 3/16 holes for the control column
2) fish the wire inside FUS05 over to either side and out the gear attach hole
3) thread or wrap it around the silicone "jig" that goes through the nutplate
(with adhesive applied)
4) pull it through.
5) repeat for each AN3 nut (4 per FUS05 tube)

My floor is still not attached so the last center 3/16 holes that go through the
floor skin are easy.

Sounds complicated, but the only thing to really watch is the edge clearance
between the nutplates and the FUS05 tube vertical walls.

I'll bet Wayne is now screaming at his computer "...JUST TAP"EM AND GET ON
WITH IT!" :)

Cheers!
Rob
Rebel 786




On 2/6/2010 2:04 PM, rshannon@cruzcom.com wrote to rebel-builders:

-> Thanks, Dave. Looks like a good fastener for many applications. I wasn't
-> familiar with these and am glad to know about them. However, personally I
-> think I'm going to go with the floor mounted angles because A) I have the
-> materials already, B) I won't have to drill larger holes into the carry
-> through (looks like the thin Key Locks with internal 10-32 thread need an
-> "I" drill (~0.267") hole for their 5/16" external thread), and C) I'll have
-> "above ground" lock nuts that I can see.
->
-> Ron
-> 254R
->
->
-> On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 2:14 PM, David A. Ricker
<daricker@ns.sympatico.ca>wrote:
->
-> > Ron, Guys
-> >
-> > If you already have drilled holes to deal with like Ron then you could
-> > put Key Lock Inserts onto the structure for the threaded hole.
-> > http://www.mcmaster.com/#key-locking-inserts/=5pd9b3. I'm assuming
-> > there is enough thickness to accept the insert of course.
-> >
-> > For those who haven't seen them, Key Locks are basically a bushing with
-> > external and internal threads that can be used for repair of stripped
-> > threads or to give a stronger receptacle in materials like aluminum
-> > which are not great when tapped. The insert gives you a stronger
-> > connection in the parent material for your smaller size fastener. The
-> > inserts are threaded in place and the locking pins are driven between
-> > the parent material and the insert locking them in place. We use them
-> > at work in designing custom aluminum cranes.
-> >
-> > These aren't to be confused with Helicoils, different beast.
-> >
-> > Dave
-> >
-> >
->




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Charlie Eubanks

[rebel-builders] control column mount

Post by Charlie Eubanks » Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:03 pm

Wayne
I agree... I wasn't suggestion putting the bearings in backwards. The way
MAM designed them is the right way it gives the best bearing contact. There
would be no reason to install them backwards if you could easily un screw
the base and remove the column.
Charlie E. 802R
----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 1:22 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] control column mount

I'm having email issues right now .. and not getting stuff from the list..
but I just read the archives.

In Roger's pictures he has the delrin hat bearings in backwards. I've seen
this done on a few.. and it does make it so you can remove the bearing and
get the column out of the way. It isn't however how the column was
intended
to run on the delrin for a bearing surface. Idea was for the large
aluminum
washer to run on the wide face of the "hat"... not the small face of the
bushing wall.

Probably not a huge deal.. but thought I better throw it out there for
debate! lol


----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Shannon" <rshannon@cruzcom.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 12:18 AM
Subject: [rebel-builders] control column mount

There's been mention a few times of using a double end bracket to allow
removal of the control column for under panel maintenance, etc., but I'm
having a hard time visualizing how that's supposed to be done. Does
anyone
have a photo or sketch of that design? Or perhaps just further
explanation
suitable for the Dept. of Dunce?

Ron
254R
http://n254mr.com




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snowyrvr@mtaonline.net

[rebel-builders] control column mount

Post by snowyrvr@mtaonline.net » Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:03 pm

Well, tapping is a good plan...or riveting bases in and bolting to them (my
choice). Click-Bonds are great (I truly believe Ron gets a kickback from
the company evrytime he mentions them :) ) but be careful with the
preparation. The surface they go on has to be very clean or they won't
stick or stay stuck. I'm not sure you could do a good job from outside the
area.

Original Message:
-----------------
From: schaumr@dcsol.com
Date: Sun, 07 Feb 2010 01:42:14 -0900
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] control column mount


I have yet to drill 3/16 holes into FUS05 for the right or left side, so
Wayne's
idea of tapping for AN3s is still totally doable for me. Wouldn't it be
nice
though, to have some really sturdy threads you'd never have to worry about
stripping?

This then got me thinking about Ron's ubiquitous clickbond
nutplates.....could
one "fish" some of these through the gear attach holes on either side of
the
FUS05s?

You would have to:
1) Stick some stiff wire through the intended 3/16 holes for the control
column
2) fish the wire inside FUS05 over to either side and out the gear attach
hole
3) thread or wrap it around the silicone "jig" that goes through the
nutplate
(with adhesive applied)
4) pull it through.
5) repeat for each AN3 nut (4 per FUS05 tube)

My floor is still not attached so the last center 3/16 holes that go
through the
floor skin are easy.

Sounds complicated, but the only thing to really watch is the edge
clearance
between the nutplates and the FUS05 tube vertical walls.

I'll bet Wayne is now screaming at his computer "...JUST TAP"EM AND GET ON
WITH IT!" :)

Cheers!
Rob
Rebel 786




On 2/6/2010 2:04 PM, rshannon@cruzcom.com wrote to rebel-builders:

-> Thanks, Dave. Looks like a good fastener for many applications. I wasn't
-> familiar with these and am glad to know about them. However, personally I
-> think I'm going to go with the floor mounted angles because A) I have the
-> materials already, B) I won't have to drill larger holes into the carry
-> through (looks like the thin Key Locks with internal 10-32 thread need an
-> "I" drill (~0.267") hole for their 5/16" external thread), and C) I'll
have
-> "above ground" lock nuts that I can see.
->
-> Ron
-> 254R
->
->
-> On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 2:14 PM, David A. Ricker
<daricker@ns.sympatico.ca>wrote:
->
-> > Ron, Guys
-> >
-> > If you already have drilled holes to deal with like Ron then you could
-> > put Key Lock Inserts onto the structure for the threaded hole.
-> > http://www.mcmaster.com/#key-locking-inserts/=5pd9b3. I'm assuming
-> > there is enough thickness to accept the insert of course.
-> >
-> > For those who haven't seen them, Key Locks are basically a bushing with
-> > external and internal threads that can be used for repair of stripped
-> > threads or to give a stronger receptacle in materials like aluminum
-> > which are not great when tapped. The insert gives you a stronger
-> > connection in the parent material for your smaller size fastener. The
-> > inserts are threaded in place and the locking pins are driven between
-> > the parent material and the insert locking them in place. We use them
-> > at work in designing custom aluminum cranes.
-> >
-> > These aren't to be confused with Helicoils, different beast.
-> >
-> > Dave
-> >
-> >
->




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Ron Shannon

[rebel-builders] control column mount

Post by Ron Shannon » Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:03 pm

It would be difficult to do a proper Click Bond installation there, due to
both the surface prep and application issues. If I were trying it, I would
probably transition from stiff wire to fishing line as the pull wire,
because the silicone nipple fixture would need to bend a bit getting into
the hole, and once started up into the hole, you'd have to pull the snake
line through before pulling the fixture up tight. For eighteen holes, it
would take a lot of patience. Among other things, the epoxy does set up
rapidly, and if there's significant delay while attempting to snake one into
place, the epoxy batch will kick off. So you might end up having to use
several batches. In any case, I would practice the snake routine with a dry
nutplate a few times first.

The Click Bonds are super -- one hole, auto centering, etc. -- but there are
a few places they either won't work (FWF) or are just too hard to apply.
[Bummer. That'll be the end of the kickbacks, right there.]

Ron
254R


On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 9:47 AM, snowyrvr@mtaonline.net <
snowyrvr@mtaonline.net> wrote:
Well, tapping is a good plan...or riveting bases in and bolting to them (my
choice). Click-Bonds are great (I truly believe Ron gets a kickback from
the company evrytime he mentions them :) ) but be careful with the
preparation. The surface they go on has to be very clean or they won't
stick or stay stuck. I'm not sure you could do a good job from outside the
area.



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