Elvevator deflection

Legeorgen · Post by **Legeorgen** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:34 pm

Wayne,

What was the amount of up elevator you were recommending? 25%? 30%? The
elevator seems to be stiff. Is this because of all the cable guides, and is
this normal? I'm used to a push pull tube on the Kitfox that has very little
friction. Thanks

Bruce G 357R
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Wayne G. O'Shea · Post by **Wayne G. O'Shea** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:34 pm

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Bruce, the elevator system usually has enough friction in it that the
elevator won't slam down when you let go of the stick. It should not require
anymore than a light finger on the trailing edge to make it drop however! If
it needs anymore force than this, then you need to determine if your cables
are too tight, the elevator's mixer shafts (the gizmo that changes cables to
push pull tubes in the rear) Delrin "bearings" are too snug, the control
column Delrin bearings are too tight or the elevator hinge bushings are not
installed (or lubed) properly. If you have all nylon guides and no pulleys
the elevator will actually move smoother that when pulleys are used in the
system, but unfortunately we can not rig them without pulleys (anymore) in
Canada.

As for deflection, if it is a nose heavy Rebel you need a minimum of 28 to
30 DEGREES UP elevator for a 3 point landing when the flaps are down and
flying solo. As long as you have 20 down, that's more than enough to lift
the tail out of the snow when flying skis (and no tail ski).

Regards,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

----- Original Message -----
From: <Legeorgen@cs.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2000 9:05 PM
Subject: Elvevator deflection

Wayne,

What was the amount of up elevator you were recommending? 25%? 30%? The
elevator seems to be stiff. Is this because of all the cable guides, and

is

this normal? I'm used to a push pull tube on the Kitfox that has very

little

friction. Thanks

Bruce G 357R

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LisaFly99 · Post by **LisaFly99** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:34 pm

In a message dated 11/22/00 8:06:15 PM Central Standard Time,
Legeorgen@cs.com writes:

What was the amount of up elevator you were recommending? 25%? 30%?

Bruce
Pardon my butting in but I think it was BOB P. that insisted on at least 25
deg.
I was running 23 deg. cranked it up to 25 deg. Made final flair much nicer.
Phil&Lisa Smith #460 N414D

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rebelair · Post by **rebelair** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:34 pm

Hi Bruce

I used 32 degrees up elevator which left just over 20 on down. I believe
this is a good trade off during the flare & while trying to keep the tail
pinned down just after landing.

Brian #328R

-----Original Message-----
From: Legeorgen@cs.com [mailto:Legeorgen@cs.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2000 9:05 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Elvevator deflection

Wayne,

What was the amount of up elevator you were recommending? 25%? 30%? The
elevator seems to be stiff. Is this because of all the cable guides, and is
this normal? I'm used to a push pull tube on the Kitfox that has very little
friction. Thanks

Bruce G 357R
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Legeorgen · Post by **Legeorgen** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:34 pm

Phil&Lisa,

Thanks for the feedback. MY KItfox has limited elevator and is somewhat nose
heavy. I suspect the Rebel will be to, with an 0 320 and standard firewall,
so I would like as much up elevator as I can get.

When I tightened the cables the action became stiff. There is enough
friction, that the elevator stays were I put it. I believe the friction is
coming from first cable guide just 6 or 8 inches aft of the control torque
tube. There is a large angle change in the cable here and maybe a pulley
would be a better option there. Does your elevator have that much friction?

Bruce G 357R
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Legeorgen · Post by **Legeorgen** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:34 pm

Wayne,

I do have the pulleys I ordered from MAM. I spent 10 hours retro fitting them
and was sore all over after crawling down that tube 25 times, just to here
you say you prefer the guides. Ugh! but after reading your reply I believe
the problem must be the nylon washers in the elevator hinges I never used,
because I have none. The plan was to put it all together and check the
rigging. I figured I could add the washers later on final assemble.

30 degree up elevator is the maximum I can get mechanically. I will rig it
for that. Thanks.

Bruce G 357R
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Legeorgen · Post by **Legeorgen** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:34 pm

Brian,

Was 32 degree the maximum deflection of up elevator you could get before the
horn on the gizmo (the thing that changes cable to push pull tubes) hits the
limit of the hole cut in your horizontal bulkhead? My limit is 32 degrees so
I figured 30 for a stop would allow clearance.

I like to have lots of flare on slow, steep and short landings. I recall
once, in learning to fly my Kitfox, I was in a slip coming into a short
field. Like the Rebel and being solo and light, I found on flare at about 30
feet I ran out of elevator. The ground just kept coming and it got my
attention real quick! the result was a 4G plus landing and to the credit of
Skystar, no damage to may spring gear Kitfox or fuselage. My lesson was to
have lots if authority back at the tail, and know your airplane. It's not an
Aeronca or Supper Cub (the Kitfox that is).

Bruce G 357R
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LisaFly99 · Post by **LisaFly99** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:34 pm

In a message dated 11/23/00 10:48:47 AM Central Standard Time,
Legeorgen@cs.com writes:

I believe the friction is
coming from first cable guide just 6 or 8 inches aft of the control torque

BRUCE
My first cable guides are 10 1/2"&11" back from the tube. The rest of the
guides where as needed with the MAM supplied double pulley in the rear. Da I
forgot to measure the distance I had from the last guide and the pulleys.
There's no undo friction, actually it's pretty smooth. Just don't rivet the
protection cover in place like MAM shows. Use RIVNUTS or similar spaced just
enough to hold every thing down.
Phil&Lisa Smith N414D

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Wayne G. O'Shea · Post by **Wayne G. O'Shea** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:34 pm

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Bruce, let me reiterate!
]
You did the right thing by installing pulleys. It makes for a safer
installation, although I have found that the elevator/rudder cables in A/C
that only have guides do run smoother. I installed pulleys in my first A/C
to follow "Acceptable Methods" and wouldn't do a new installation any other
way!

Regards,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

----- Original Message -----
From: <Legeorgen@cs.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2000 12:04 PM
Subject: Re: Elvevator deflection

Wayne,

I do have the pulleys I ordered from MAM. I spent 10 hours retro fitting

them

and was sore all over after crawling down that tube 25 times, just to here
you say you prefer the guides. Ugh! but after reading your reply I believe
the problem must be the nylon washers in the elevator hinges I never used,
because I have none. The plan was to put it all together and check the
rigging. I figured I could add the washers later on final assemble.

30 degree up elevator is the maximum I can get mechanically. I will rig it
for that. Thanks.

Bruce G 357R

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Mike Davis · Post by **Mike Davis** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:34 pm

The software I intend to use is actually the software I was running when I
started my Internet business. I believe it is really what made my service
stand apart from all the other ISPs in the area. My users absolutely loved
it. Unfortunately my business grew faster than the capabilities of this
software, so I had to abandon it... I actually lost quite a few of my users
because of this. That was 3 years ago, and the software has addressed most
of the short comings I felt it had back then... even so, most of those were
concerns for an ISP, they wouldn't affect providing a list like this. I
guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm confident no one will have any
difficulty using the new system. The actual list portion will be exactly
the same. The archives will be very different, but I believe much
better. You'll still be able to view them with you browser just like you
do know, but they will be intelligent... and interactive, instead of just a
static bunch of text files like they are now. Those who are adventuresome
and try out the client software I make available I think will benefit even
more. Heck, my wife is even excited to see me looking into setting up the
old software because she and her friends used some of the features so much.

Mike

---------------------------------------------
It is YOUR list server Mike, but with my W.W.II mentality (i.e. Lycoming
lover), this is my fear also. Will we need a training and users manual to
navigate, and will it be too complicated for "simpletons" like ME to use
(and/or will it be used)? When is the last time someone used the Flying
Rebels list that you were asked for?? Heck, I can't even get on the "ftp"
site that you keep talking about, to view the pictures.
But if you do go ahead with the changes I am definitely in for my share of
the $'s as this mail list has become a source, for a small amount, of
business for me!

Blue skies,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

P.S. Love the first page of your family's website!!!!"Smith and Wesson: The
original point and click interface"

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rebelair · Post by **rebelair** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:34 pm

Hi Bruce

I actually changed the ratio of the horn which you mentioned. I have two
horns for the aircraft. It was decided by MAM some time ago that the
original horn was too sensitive for the aircraft with higher speeds so I
upgraded to the newer one. However, after watching Ron Barber with his
original landing problems & his difficulty getting the aircraft to land
properly, I switched to the newer style. The problem with the new one is
that now you have less throw available. That goes against what I just
stated in a previous sentence. And if you have the firewall moved back, you
have even less throw available. So I redrilled one part of the horn back to
the original throw. I now have from 52-54 total degrees of movement of the
elevator & it is up to you how to split it. The elevator at 0320 cruising
speeds is sensitive but not a problem at all. It is also very light. Stick
forces in pitch are minimal. You get much more of a workout running the
elevators on a C-172 for comparisons sake. To answer your question, I
opened up the FUS-31 (horizontal bulkhead in the tail), enough to allow the
required throw.

Brian #328R

-----Original Message-----
From: Legeorgen@cs.com [mailto:Legeorgen@cs.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2000 12:28 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Elvevator deflection

Brian,

Was 32 degree the maximum deflection of up elevator you could get before the
horn on the gizmo (the thing that changes cable to push pull tubes) hits the
limit of the hole cut in your horizontal bulkhead? My limit is 32 degrees so
I figured 30 for a stop would allow clearance.

I like to have lots of flare on slow, steep and short landings. I recall
once, in learning to fly my Kitfox, I was in a slip coming into a short
field. Like the Rebel and being solo and light, I found on flare at about 30
feet I ran out of elevator. The ground just kept coming and it got my
attention real quick! the result was a 4G plus landing and to the credit of
Skystar, no damage to may spring gear Kitfox or fuselage. My lesson was to
have lots if authority back at the tail, and know your airplane. It's not an
Aeronca or Supper Cub (the Kitfox that is).

Bruce G 357R
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rebelair · Post by **rebelair** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:34 pm

Hi Alister

From your comments, does that mean that you always fly under 45 Knots

because faster than that you feel out of control? Must be tough on the
cross country work. Although with the beautiful country that you have,
(just rewatched an Americas Cup race today while on the treadmill), going
slow is a beautiful thing.

(Just pulling your leg).

Cheers

Brian #328R

-----Original Message-----
From: A G Yeoman [mailto:yeoman@voyager.co.nz]
Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2000 2:58 PM
To: Murphy Rebel Builders List
Subject: Re: Elvevator deflection

Hi All,
I have been reading with interest this thread on elevator
deflection, I have an 0-320 Rebel with the firewall back with standard
deflection on the elevator and it doesn't seem to be a problem.

Having just said that, the Rebel seems to have a few characteristics of its
own, it can get a high rate of sink on approach if the speed is back a bit
and you carry no power, no amount of elevator is going to arrest this
Pitts Specials can do the same thing). Once the sink rate starts I am sure
the relative airflow over the elevator changes and it becomes less
effective. Applying power places airflow over the elevator and you get any
amount of elevator authority.( also gives the wings more lift)

On any sort of short field work it is important to get the speed back far
enough to get behind the drag curve so that you can carry power and still
keep the airspeed under control, I dont feel I have JHY under control until
I am under about 40-45KTs.

Just my 2c worth on the subject.

Cheers

Alister

----- Original Message -----
From: <Legeorgen@cs.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, November 24, 2000 6:27 AM
Subject: Re: Elvevator deflection

Brian,

Was 32 degree the maximum deflection of up elevator you could get before

the

horn on the gizmo (the thing that changes cable to push pull tubes) hits

the

limit of the hole cut in your horizontal bulkhead? My limit is 32 degrees

so

I figured 30 for a stop would allow clearance.

I like to have lots of flare on slow, steep and short landings. I recall
once, in learning to fly my Kitfox, I was in a slip coming into a short
field. Like the Rebel and being solo and light, I found on flare at about

30

feet I ran out of elevator. The ground just kept coming and it got my
attention real quick! the result was a 4G plus landing and to the credit

of

Skystar, no damage to may spring gear Kitfox or fuselage. My lesson was to
have lots if authority back at the tail, and know your airplane. It's not

an

Aeronca or Supper Cub (the Kitfox that is).

Bruce G 357R

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Legeorgen · Post by **Legeorgen** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:34 pm

Alister,

Coming in behind the power curve is great and I usually approach a short
field this way, but at some point before touchdown you have to cut the power
and flare (you don't normally land with power except in extreme cases, do
you?) and this is where I run into a problem with my nose heavy Kitfox. I
have only had the opportunity to fly an Elite demonstrator one time. What is
your technique for such work? I would appreciate your opinion and input. I am
always ready learn and become a better pilot.

Bruce G 357R
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Legeorgen · Post by **Legeorgen** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:34 pm

Brian,

How do I know if I have an old horn or a new one? The hole in horizontal
fus-31 is cut back as far as possible without cutting into the "factory cut"
flanged hole behind it. I have a maximum 52 degree of deflection movement
possible now.

I would like to have more bend in the control stick as it is so far forward
now, I find it uncomfortable to handle it. I will have to put more of a bend
in it so it fits comfortable in my lap and still have room for full up
elevator. Cheers

Bruce G 357R
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klehman · Post by **klehman** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:34 pm

Bruce

The upgraded cc-88-1 is identical to the old one with the following
difference. The holes that the elevator cables attach to are 2.25 inches
from the pivot or 4.5" apart. The holes on the upgraded part are 3" from
the pivot or 6" apart. As I recall, that one change results in more than
two inches more aft movement of the stick at full up elevator.

As far as Fus-31 goes, simply lengthening the push rods that go to the
elevators, also gives more up elevator (and less down) of course,
provided you have sufficient total throw.

Ken

Legeorgen@cs.com wrote:

Brian,

How do I know if I have an old horn or a new one? The hole in horizontal
fus-31 is cut back as far as possible without cutting into the "factory cut"
flanged hole behind it. I have a maximum 52 degree of deflection movement
possible now.

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