[rebel-builders] pk1800 float rigging

[Bob Andrews]

Jose,

It is not difficult to build your own rigging. There are three main
dimensions that need definition. (1) The location of the step (fore/aft)
along the wing chord line (plumb bobbed location of the step from a %MAC on
the wing to the floor with the fuselage bottom level), (2) the distance
between the top of the fwd spreader bar to the fuselage bottom, and (3) the
angle comprised by the flat fuselage bottom and the float top deck - also
known as the throat angle. With these three variables "nailed down", the
struts and wires can be made.

I'll upload a drawing on the builders site showing my Elite to Montana 2200
dement ions as just described. Note that MAM (as best I can tell) have the
fuselage sitting higher on the floats then I have in my drawings. But they
might help you see what I am talking about regarding the three key
measurements mentioned above. I am in the process of re-rigging mine a few
inches higher too, as I will be swinging a bigger prop. But have had many
water landings and take-offs with my rigging as defined in this drawing.

Cheers, Bob (612e)

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Jose &
Terry
Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 10:26 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] pk1800 float rigging

Hello all, I am new to the list and looking forward to working with
everyone. Just a quick question for those who may be of assistance, I bought
a set of pk1800 floats and am having quite a time finding set up info. I
know this is going to take some doing and modifying but what I really need
is a starting point like an engineered drawing of the murphy 1800 set up
with measurements and angles, maybe even a builder's install manual. If
anyone can steer me in the right direction I would be most appreciative.


Here's to punching holes in the sky...

Jose LeBrasseur



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[Bob Andrews]

Jose,

... another approach to getting these three measurements would be to call
the PK folks in Maine.

Anyway, the initial install on my elite was:

(1) Step at 45% MAC with floor level
(2) Fwd spreader bar 26" below the fuselage bottom with floor level
(3) Throat angle (wing chord to float top deck) of 4.25 degrees

Install pictures can be found at www.aacnet.com/elite

I also have heard of some installing an adjustable aft strut that enables
changing the throat angle depending on bolt holes used.

Hope this helps,

Bob 612e

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Bob
Andrews
Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2009 7:33 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] pk1800 float rigging

Jose,

It is not difficult to build your own rigging. There are three main
dimensions that need definition. (1) The location of the step (fore/aft)
along the wing chord line (plumb bobbed location of the step from a %MAC on
the wing to the floor with the fuselage bottom level), (2) the distance
between the top of the fwd spreader bar to the fuselage bottom, and (3) the
angle comprised by the flat fuselage bottom and the float top deck - also
known as the throat angle. With these three variables "nailed down", the
struts and wires can be made.

I'll upload a drawing on the builders site showing my Elite to Montana 2200
dement ions as just described. Note that MAM (as best I can tell) have the
fuselage sitting higher on the floats then I have in my drawings. But they
might help you see what I am talking about regarding the three key
measurements mentioned above. I am in the process of re-rigging mine a few
inches higher too, as I will be swinging a bigger prop. But have had many
water landings and take-offs with my rigging as defined in this drawing.

Cheers, Bob (612e)

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Jose &
Terry
Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 10:26 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] pk1800 float rigging

Hello all, I am new to the list and looking forward to working with
everyone. Just a quick question for those who may be of assistance, I bought
a set of pk1800 floats and am having quite a time finding set up info. I
know this is going to take some doing and modifying but what I really need
is a starting point like an engineered drawing of the murphy 1800 set up
with measurements and angles, maybe even a builder's install manual. If
anyone can steer me in the right direction I would be most appreciative.


Here's to punching holes in the sky...

Jose LeBrasseur



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[montanafloat]

Jose
If you contact me off line I maybe able to help you
Keith
keith@montanafloat.com

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Jose &
Terry
Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 11:26 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] pk1800 float rigging

Hello all, I am new to the list and looking forward to working with
everyone. Just a quick question for those who may be of assistance, I bought
a set of pk1800 floats and am having quite a time finding set up info. I
know this is going to take some doing and modifying but what I really need
is a starting point like an engineered drawing of the murphy 1800 set up
with measurements and angles, maybe even a builder's install manual. If
anyone can steer me in the right direction I would be most appreciative.


Here's to punching holes in the sky...

Jose LeBrasseur



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[Jose & Terry]

Hello Bob, thanks for the great information, just one question though, my
computer ability is lower than my ability to eat chips so if you could step
by step me towards the upload you done that would be great.

Thanks,

Jose


----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Andrews" <robert@montanasky.us>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2009 10:17 AM
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] pk1800 float rigging

Jose,

... another approach to getting these three measurements would be to call
the PK folks in Maine.

Anyway, the initial install on my elite was:

(1) Step at 45% MAC with floor level
(2) Fwd spreader bar 26" below the fuselage bottom with floor level
(3) Throat angle (wing chord to float top deck) of 4.25 degrees

Install pictures can be found at www.aacnet.com/elite

I also have heard of some installing an adjustable aft strut that enables
changing the throat angle depending on bolt holes used.

Hope this helps,

Bob 612e

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Bob
Andrews
Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2009 7:33 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] pk1800 float rigging

Jose,

It is not difficult to build your own rigging. There are three main
dimensions that need definition. (1) The location of the step (fore/aft)
along the wing chord line (plumb bobbed location of the step from a %MAC
on
the wing to the floor with the fuselage bottom level), (2) the distance
between the top of the fwd spreader bar to the fuselage bottom, and (3)
the
angle comprised by the flat fuselage bottom and the float top deck - also
known as the throat angle. With these three variables "nailed down", the
struts and wires can be made.

I'll upload a drawing on the builders site showing my Elite to Montana
2200
dement ions as just described. Note that MAM (as best I can tell) have
the
fuselage sitting higher on the floats then I have in my drawings. But
they
might help you see what I am talking about regarding the three key
measurements mentioned above. I am in the process of re-rigging mine a
few
inches higher too, as I will be swinging a bigger prop. But have had many
water landings and take-offs with my rigging as defined in this drawing.

Cheers, Bob (612e)

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Jose
&
Terry
Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 10:26 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] pk1800 float rigging

Hello all, I am new to the list and looking forward to working with
everyone. Just a quick question for those who may be of assistance, I
bought
a set of pk1800 floats and am having quite a time finding set up info. I
know this is going to take some doing and modifying but what I really need
is a starting point like an engineered drawing of the murphy 1800 set up
with measurements and angles, maybe even a builder's install manual. If
anyone can steer me in the right direction I would be most appreciative.


Here's to punching holes in the sky...

Jose LeBrasseur



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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.426 / Virus Database: 270.14.96/2548 - Release Date: 12/06/09
07:30:00




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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

Nice drawing Bob !!!

Would just like to correct your terminology. 4.25* is your throat angle from
the float deck to the BOTTOM of wing.. not the chord.

Do you find that the airplane will fly off the water with that low of a
throat angle??.. or do you have to work/force it off the water or let it run
up to speed to depart? We have found anything under 2.5 degrees deck to
cabin bottom needs a one float lift or has to be run up to 60 mph to get off
the water as the wing can't do it's job that flat. Trying to rotate at any
slower speed buries the float tails. 3 to 3.5 degrees seems to work the
best, for me anyhow, for 150 HP Rebels and 180 HP Elites anyhow.

Cheers,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jose & Terry" <tj22@mts.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2009 8:22 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] pk1800 float rigging

Hello Bob, thanks for the great information, just one question though, my
computer ability is lower than my ability to eat chips so if you could
step
by step me towards the upload you done that would be great.

Thanks,

Jose


----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Andrews" <robert@montanasky.us>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2009 10:17 AM
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] pk1800 float rigging

Jose,

... another approach to getting these three measurements would be to call
the PK folks in Maine.

Anyway, the initial install on my elite was:

(1) Step at 45% MAC with floor level
(2) Fwd spreader bar 26" below the fuselage bottom with floor level
(3) Throat angle (wing chord to float top deck) of 4.25 degrees

Install pictures can be found at www.aacnet.com/elite

I also have heard of some installing an adjustable aft strut that enables
changing the throat angle depending on bolt holes used.

Hope this helps,

Bob 612e

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Bob
Andrews
Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2009 7:33 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] pk1800 float rigging

Jose,

It is not difficult to build your own rigging. There are three main
dimensions that need definition. (1) The location of the step (fore/aft)
along the wing chord line (plumb bobbed location of the step from a %MAC
on
the wing to the floor with the fuselage bottom level), (2) the distance
between the top of the fwd spreader bar to the fuselage bottom, and (3)
the
angle comprised by the flat fuselage bottom and the float top deck - also
known as the throat angle. With these three variables "nailed down", the
struts and wires can be made.

I'll upload a drawing on the builders site showing my Elite to Montana
2200
dement ions as just described. Note that MAM (as best I can tell) have
the
fuselage sitting higher on the floats then I have in my drawings. But
they
might help you see what I am talking about regarding the three key
measurements mentioned above. I am in the process of re-rigging mine a
few
inches higher too, as I will be swinging a bigger prop. But have had
many
water landings and take-offs with my rigging as defined in this drawing.

Cheers, Bob (612e)

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Jose
&
Terry
Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 10:26 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] pk1800 float rigging

Hello all, I am new to the list and looking forward to working with
everyone. Just a quick question for those who may be of assistance, I
bought
a set of pk1800 floats and am having quite a time finding set up info. I
know this is going to take some doing and modifying but what I really
need
is a starting point like an engineered drawing of the murphy 1800 set up
with measurements and angles, maybe even a builder's install manual. If
anyone can steer me in the right direction I would be most appreciative.


Here's to punching holes in the sky...

Jose LeBrasseur



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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.426 / Virus Database: 270.14.96/2548 - Release Date: 12/06/09
07:30:00




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[Bob Andrews]

This is good discussion Wayne, thanks for chiming in.

The drawing is a bit out of scale though - with the three variables as I
mentioned, the aft struts are nearly a clean 90 degree angle with the top
deck to the (my) aft fuselage fitting - not at the angle going aft to the
fuselage as the drawing shows. Note, a second set of aft float fitting were
added to my Elite one bulkhead position fwd then the MAM fitting - which I
kept in by the way for a tie off for my fish stringer.

Regarding the throat angle, YES I did mean to say 4.25 degrees w/r/t the
bottom of the wing and the float top deck thanks for the correction, and YES
this angle is right at the lower end of an acceptable throat angle window.
On this next rigging, I am opening up the throat angle at least one full
degree (just as you mentioned). With the 4.25 degree (wing bottom to top
deck) throat, she was quite happy staying in the sweet spot ... and although
flying off on her own would eventually occur, it was well past 60-65 kts.
The extended wing tips are likely a factor too ... maybe. Anyway, a little
manual encouragement (aft stick) at a more reasonable lift off speed
(slower) once up on the step does lead to a clean take-off. I haven't
experienced any digging in with the float tails as you mentioned ... might
be the aft spreader bar on the Montana floats are fwd (one full float bay I
think) from that of the MAM floats, and to the best of my knowledge, they
have never made contact with the surface of the water ... but I don't know
that for sure.

Jose - It's this kind of dialog that will help you get yours "tuned in" ...
so hope you are paying attention!! Keith at MFC has rigged more Murphy
aircraft then I think he himself can count ... from the little ones to the
biggest ones, so contacting him is surely the right thing to do. There's a
link to his MFC website with his contact info on my builders site home page.

Downloading the drawing is really pretty easy. Go to the builders site
https://mail.dcsol.com/rebelgen.htm then click on the "Files" option in the
red menu bar at the top, and log in with your own account ... or use the
username=rebel password=builder open login option, then click on the "New
Files" button (with 7 days works fine) ... and you should see it.

Cheers, Bob 612e


-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Wayne
G. O'Shea
Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2009 5:35 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] pk1800 float rigging

Nice drawing Bob !!!

Would just like to correct your terminology. 4.25* is your throat angle from

the float deck to the BOTTOM of wing.. not the chord.

Do you find that the airplane will fly off the water with that low of a
throat angle??.. or do you have to work/force it off the water or let it run

up to speed to depart? We have found anything under 2.5 degrees deck to
cabin bottom needs a one float lift or has to be run up to 60 mph to get off

the water as the wing can't do it's job that flat. Trying to rotate at any
slower speed buries the float tails. 3 to 3.5 degrees seems to work the
best, for me anyhow, for 150 HP Rebels and 180 HP Elites anyhow.

Cheers,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jose & Terry" <tj22@mts.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2009 8:22 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] pk1800 float rigging

Hello Bob, thanks for the great information, just one question though, my
computer ability is lower than my ability to eat chips so if you could
step
by step me towards the upload you done that would be great.

Thanks,

Jose


----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Andrews" <robert@montanasky.us>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2009 10:17 AM
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] pk1800 float rigging

Jose,

... another approach to getting these three measurements would be to call
the PK folks in Maine.

Anyway, the initial install on my elite was:

(1) Step at 45% MAC with floor level
(2) Fwd spreader bar 26" below the fuselage bottom with floor level
(3) Throat angle (wing chord to float top deck) of 4.25 degrees

Install pictures can be found at www.aacnet.com/elite

I also have heard of some installing an adjustable aft strut that enables
changing the throat angle depending on bolt holes used.

Hope this helps,

Bob 612e

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Bob
Andrews
Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2009 7:33 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] pk1800 float rigging

Jose,

It is not difficult to build your own rigging. There are three main
dimensions that need definition. (1) The location of the step (fore/aft)
along the wing chord line (plumb bobbed location of the step from a %MAC
on
the wing to the floor with the fuselage bottom level), (2) the distance
between the top of the fwd spreader bar to the fuselage bottom, and (3)
the
angle comprised by the flat fuselage bottom and the float top deck - also
known as the throat angle. With these three variables "nailed down", the
struts and wires can be made.

I'll upload a drawing on the builders site showing my Elite to Montana
2200
dement ions as just described. Note that MAM (as best I can tell) have
the
fuselage sitting higher on the floats then I have in my drawings. But
they
might help you see what I am talking about regarding the three key
measurements mentioned above. I am in the process of re-rigging mine a
few
inches higher too, as I will be swinging a bigger prop. But have had
many
water landings and take-offs with my rigging as defined in this drawing.

Cheers, Bob (612e)

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Jose
&
Terry
Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 10:26 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] pk1800 float rigging

Hello all, I am new to the list and looking forward to working with
everyone. Just a quick question for those who may be of assistance, I
bought
a set of pk1800 floats and am having quite a time finding set up info. I
know this is going to take some doing and modifying but what I really
need
is a starting point like an engineered drawing of the murphy 1800 set up
with measurements and angles, maybe even a builder's install manual. If
anyone can steer me in the right direction I would be most appreciative.


Here's to punching holes in the sky...

Jose LeBrasseur



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[srwhitenect]

Careful not to add too much angle. I have mine sitting at 4* and it seems
great for takeoff- starts to wiggle at 40-45mph and off with a slight lift at
gross of 1890lbs. Gave a young pilot a float endorsement at the end of the
summer and his landing speeds were a bit too high. Wants to dig in a bit too
much for my liking but was touching at 55-60. Be prepared for this when
your first on the water and be ready for a quick back check of the stick.
Bleed the speed off to about 50 and below before touching the water and the
profile is perfect. I would like to try the 3.5* but the take off is so remarkable
at the gross weight I am operating at, I wouldn't want to loose any of the
performance.

I've got a question now that Wayne is on topic. What has been the norm for
the difference in angle between the front strut attachment fitting and the
bottom of the fuse on spring gear setups? Has everyone just been mounting
the front fitting and letting the tail of the plane down so that the rear fitting
lines up? If the floats and struts are assembled as per the manual, the top
attach fitting is on the same plane as the top of the floats (no angle). The
rear fittings are about 5" away from the fuse fittings. If the rear of the plane
is lowered to align the rear fittings, you end up with about 3-3.5* of throat
angle. What about the torsional load you just placed on the front fittings to
align the rear? This wouldn't be a problem if the fittings had just one bolt
holding the struts on to the fittings like the majority of other float
manufactures. You'd be able to achieve any angle required without placing
any loads on any of the attachments. Murphy uses 3 bolts per fitting thus
making them rigid.

Steve W 637R



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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

You talking 4* float deck to cabin bottom.. or wing bottom Steve?

Steve.. I build my front struts on the aircraft! Rear strut gets installed
first and have a few holes they can be lowered and many to raise... if they
ever need it.... then the supplied angled front fittings get installed to
the fus fitting and float fitting. I cut the front struts to (my) length and
drill a 1/4" hole about 1/2" in from each end.. through one wall of the tube
only... and the strut then gets pegged under the outside of the attach
fittings using the first hole in at both ends (ie: the shortest setting).
Clamped there.. and then drilled in the other two holes at each fitting
through a single wall of the strut. Un-clamped and then the fittings put
inside tube and holes drilled the rest of the way through. Fittings end up a
few degrees off of straight into the strut.. and require milling off the
square edge a tad so they'll slide in. If you build them first and straight
in.. like you say a real torsional twist to the fuselage attach fitting.
Other option... like you say is to make custom attach blocks for single
attach bolts in the struts.. but AFAIC this just makes the fitting attach
points take a torsional load everytime you land.

Many say the single bolt is to allow rotation in a hard landing without
shear.. that will happen when you make it rigid with three bolts. When it
comes right down to it.. I can tell you it's not an issue, considering I've
had a Rebel that was stretched 3 inches and lowered 2... floats buckled at
the step and bottoms punched in 6" from bow to step.. and I reused the
rigging/struts etc for his new floats after I rebuilt the aircaft. No damage
to any of the struts or hardware.


----- Original Message -----
From: <srwhitenect@dcsol.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2009 11:02 PM
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] pk1800 float rigging

Careful not to add too much angle. I have mine sitting at 4* and it seems
great for takeoff- starts to wiggle at 40-45mph and off with a slight lift
at
gross of 1890lbs. Gave a young pilot a float endorsement at the end of the
summer and his landing speeds were a bit too high. Wants to dig in a bit
too
much for my liking but was touching at 55-60. Be prepared for this when
your first on the water and be ready for a quick back check of the stick.
Bleed the speed off to about 50 and below before touching the water and
the
profile is perfect. I would like to try the 3.5* but the take off is so
remarkable
at the gross weight I am operating at, I wouldn't want to loose any of the
performance.

I've got a question now that Wayne is on topic. What has been the norm for
the difference in angle between the front strut attachment fitting and the
bottom of the fuse on spring gear setups? Has everyone just been mounting
the front fitting and letting the tail of the plane down so that the rear
fitting
lines up? If the floats and struts are assembled as per the manual, the
top
attach fitting is on the same plane as the top of the floats (no angle).
The
rear fittings are about 5" away from the fuse fittings. If the rear of the
plane
is lowered to align the rear fittings, you end up with about 3-3.5* of
throat
angle. What about the torsional load you just placed on the front fittings
to
align the rear? This wouldn't be a problem if the fittings had just one
bolt
holding the struts on to the fittings like the majority of other float
manufactures. You'd be able to achieve any angle required without placing
any loads on any of the attachments. Murphy uses 3 bolts per fitting thus
making them rigid.

Steve W 637R



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[Jose & Terry]

Oh yes, paying very close attention, and with the wife's assistance managed
to find the drawing. This is the help I was looking for. Staying tuned in...

Cheers,

Jose

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Andrews" <robert@montanasky.us>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2009 9:21 PM
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] pk1800 float rigging

This is good discussion Wayne, thanks for chiming in.

The drawing is a bit out of scale though - with the three variables as I
mentioned, the aft struts are nearly a clean 90 degree angle with the top
deck to the (my) aft fuselage fitting - not at the angle going aft to the
fuselage as the drawing shows. Note, a second set of aft float fitting
were
added to my Elite one bulkhead position fwd then the MAM fitting - which I
kept in by the way for a tie off for my fish stringer.

Regarding the throat angle, YES I did mean to say 4.25 degrees w/r/t the
bottom of the wing and the float top deck thanks for the correction, and
YES
this angle is right at the lower end of an acceptable throat angle window.
On this next rigging, I am opening up the throat angle at least one full
degree (just as you mentioned). With the 4.25 degree (wing bottom to top
deck) throat, she was quite happy staying in the sweet spot ... and
although
flying off on her own would eventually occur, it was well past 60-65 kts.
The extended wing tips are likely a factor too ... maybe. Anyway, a
little
manual encouragement (aft stick) at a more reasonable lift off speed
(slower) once up on the step does lead to a clean take-off. I haven't
experienced any digging in with the float tails as you mentioned ... might
be the aft spreader bar on the Montana floats are fwd (one full float bay
I
think) from that of the MAM floats, and to the best of my knowledge, they
have never made contact with the surface of the water ... but I don't know
that for sure.

Jose - It's this kind of dialog that will help you get yours "tuned in"
...
so hope you are paying attention!! Keith at MFC has rigged more Murphy
aircraft then I think he himself can count ... from the little ones to the
biggest ones, so contacting him is surely the right thing to do. There's
a
link to his MFC website with his contact info on my builders site home
page.

Downloading the drawing is really pretty easy. Go to the builders site
https://mail.dcsol.com/rebelgen.htm then click on the "Files" option in
the
red menu bar at the top, and log in with your own account ... or use the
username=rebel password=builder open login option, then click on the "New
Files" button (with 7 days works fine) ... and you should see it.

Cheers, Bob 612e


-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Wayne
G. O'Shea
Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2009 5:35 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] pk1800 float rigging

Nice drawing Bob !!!

Would just like to correct your terminology. 4.25* is your throat angle
from

the float deck to the BOTTOM of wing.. not the chord.

Do you find that the airplane will fly off the water with that low of a
throat angle??.. or do you have to work/force it off the water or let it
run

up to speed to depart? We have found anything under 2.5 degrees deck to
cabin bottom needs a one float lift or has to be run up to 60 mph to get
off

the water as the wing can't do it's job that flat. Trying to rotate at any
slower speed buries the float tails. 3 to 3.5 degrees seems to work the
best, for me anyhow, for 150 HP Rebels and 180 HP Elites anyhow.

Cheers,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jose & Terry" <tj22@mts.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2009 8:22 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] pk1800 float rigging

Hello Bob, thanks for the great information, just one question though, my
computer ability is lower than my ability to eat chips so if you could
step
by step me towards the upload you done that would be great.

Thanks,

Jose


----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Andrews" <robert@montanasky.us>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2009 10:17 AM
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] pk1800 float rigging

Jose,

... another approach to getting these three measurements would be to
call
the PK folks in Maine.

Anyway, the initial install on my elite was:

(1) Step at 45% MAC with floor level
(2) Fwd spreader bar 26" below the fuselage bottom with floor level
(3) Throat angle (wing chord to float top deck) of 4.25 degrees

Install pictures can be found at www.aacnet.com/elite

I also have heard of some installing an adjustable aft strut that
enables
changing the throat angle depending on bolt holes used.

Hope this helps,

Bob 612e

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Bob
Andrews
Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2009 7:33 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] pk1800 float rigging

Jose,

It is not difficult to build your own rigging. There are three main
dimensions that need definition. (1) The location of the step
(fore/aft)
along the wing chord line (plumb bobbed location of the step from a %MAC
on
the wing to the floor with the fuselage bottom level), (2) the distance
between the top of the fwd spreader bar to the fuselage bottom, and (3)
the
angle comprised by the flat fuselage bottom and the float top deck -
also
known as the throat angle. With these three variables "nailed down",
the
struts and wires can be made.

I'll upload a drawing on the builders site showing my Elite to Montana
2200
dement ions as just described. Note that MAM (as best I can tell) have
the
fuselage sitting higher on the floats then I have in my drawings. But
they
might help you see what I am talking about regarding the three key
measurements mentioned above. I am in the process of re-rigging mine a
few
inches higher too, as I will be swinging a bigger prop. But have had
many
water landings and take-offs with my rigging as defined in this drawing.

Cheers, Bob (612e)

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Jose
&
Terry
Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 10:26 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] pk1800 float rigging

Hello all, I am new to the list and looking forward to working with
everyone. Just a quick question for those who may be of assistance, I
bought
a set of pk1800 floats and am having quite a time finding set up info. I
know this is going to take some doing and modifying but what I really
need
is a starting point like an engineered drawing of the murphy 1800 set up
with measurements and angles, maybe even a builder's install manual. If
anyone can steer me in the right direction I would be most appreciative.


Here's to punching holes in the sky...

Jose LeBrasseur



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[Bob Andrews]

Jose,

Think all the bases have been covered. Mating up your PKs to your Rebel now
should be pretty straight forward. The float step location w/r/t to the
wing chord should be the same regardless of float mfg. And the height above
the spreader bar is pretty much what you want it to be ... but I see no need
to go past 30" (spreader bar to fuselage dist). And the list here has
pretty much nailed down an acceptable throat angle ... 3.5 degrees cabin
bottom to float top deck. The rest is just a matter of making parts. So
record all this, and when ready, hang your Rebel from a sky hook, slide
those PK's underneath, and start making struts.

Good luck, Bob 612e

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Jose &
Terry
Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2009 8:33 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] pk1800 float rigging

Oh yes, paying very close attention, and with the wife's assistance managed
to find the drawing. This is the help I was looking for. Staying tuned in...

Cheers,

Jose

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Andrews" <robert@montanasky.us>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2009 9:21 PM
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] pk1800 float rigging

This is good discussion Wayne, thanks for chiming in.

The drawing is a bit out of scale though - with the three variables as I
mentioned, the aft struts are nearly a clean 90 degree angle with the top
deck to the (my) aft fuselage fitting - not at the angle going aft to the
fuselage as the drawing shows. Note, a second set of aft float fitting
were
added to my Elite one bulkhead position fwd then the MAM fitting - which I
kept in by the way for a tie off for my fish stringer.

Regarding the throat angle, YES I did mean to say 4.25 degrees w/r/t the
bottom of the wing and the float top deck thanks for the correction, and
YES
this angle is right at the lower end of an acceptable throat angle window.
On this next rigging, I am opening up the throat angle at least one full
degree (just as you mentioned). With the 4.25 degree (wing bottom to top
deck) throat, she was quite happy staying in the sweet spot ... and
although
flying off on her own would eventually occur, it was well past 60-65 kts.
The extended wing tips are likely a factor too ... maybe. Anyway, a
little
manual encouragement (aft stick) at a more reasonable lift off speed
(slower) once up on the step does lead to a clean take-off. I haven't
experienced any digging in with the float tails as you mentioned ... might
be the aft spreader bar on the Montana floats are fwd (one full float bay
I
think) from that of the MAM floats, and to the best of my knowledge, they
have never made contact with the surface of the water ... but I don't know
that for sure.

Jose - It's this kind of dialog that will help you get yours "tuned in"
...
so hope you are paying attention!! Keith at MFC has rigged more Murphy
aircraft then I think he himself can count ... from the little ones to the
biggest ones, so contacting him is surely the right thing to do. There's
a
link to his MFC website with his contact info on my builders site home
page.

Downloading the drawing is really pretty easy. Go to the builders site
https://mail.dcsol.com/rebelgen.htm then click on the "Files" option in
the
red menu bar at the top, and log in with your own account ... or use the
username=rebel password=builder open login option, then click on the "New
Files" button (with 7 days works fine) ... and you should see it.

Cheers, Bob 612e


-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Wayne
G. O'Shea
Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2009 5:35 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] pk1800 float rigging

Nice drawing Bob !!!

Would just like to correct your terminology. 4.25* is your throat angle
from

the float deck to the BOTTOM of wing.. not the chord.

Do you find that the airplane will fly off the water with that low of a
throat angle??.. or do you have to work/force it off the water or let it
run

up to speed to depart? We have found anything under 2.5 degrees deck to
cabin bottom needs a one float lift or has to be run up to 60 mph to get
off

the water as the wing can't do it's job that flat. Trying to rotate at any
slower speed buries the float tails. 3 to 3.5 degrees seems to work the
best, for me anyhow, for 150 HP Rebels and 180 HP Elites anyhow.

Cheers,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jose & Terry" <tj22@mts.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2009 8:22 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] pk1800 float rigging

Hello Bob, thanks for the great information, just one question though, my
computer ability is lower than my ability to eat chips so if you could
step
by step me towards the upload you done that would be great.

Thanks,

Jose


----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Andrews" <robert@montanasky.us>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2009 10:17 AM
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] pk1800 float rigging

Jose,

... another approach to getting these three measurements would be to
call
the PK folks in Maine.

Anyway, the initial install on my elite was:

(1) Step at 45% MAC with floor level
(2) Fwd spreader bar 26" below the fuselage bottom with floor level
(3) Throat angle (wing chord to float top deck) of 4.25 degrees

Install pictures can be found at www.aacnet.com/elite

I also have heard of some installing an adjustable aft strut that
enables
changing the throat angle depending on bolt holes used.

Hope this helps,

Bob 612e

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Bob
Andrews
Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2009 7:33 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] pk1800 float rigging

Jose,

It is not difficult to build your own rigging. There are three main
dimensions that need definition. (1) The location of the step
(fore/aft)
along the wing chord line (plumb bobbed location of the step from a %MAC
on
the wing to the floor with the fuselage bottom level), (2) the distance
between the top of the fwd spreader bar to the fuselage bottom, and (3)
the
angle comprised by the flat fuselage bottom and the float top deck -
also
known as the throat angle. With these three variables "nailed down",
the
struts and wires can be made.

I'll upload a drawing on the builders site showing my Elite to Montana
2200
dement ions as just described. Note that MAM (as best I can tell) have
the
fuselage sitting higher on the floats then I have in my drawings. But
they
might help you see what I am talking about regarding the three key
measurements mentioned above. I am in the process of re-rigging mine a
few
inches higher too, as I will be swinging a bigger prop. But have had
many
water landings and take-offs with my rigging as defined in this drawing.

Cheers, Bob (612e)

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Jose
&
Terry
Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 10:26 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] pk1800 float rigging

Hello all, I am new to the list and looking forward to working with
everyone. Just a quick question for those who may be of assistance, I
bought
a set of pk1800 floats and am having quite a time finding set up info. I
know this is going to take some doing and modifying but what I really
need
is a starting point like an engineered drawing of the murphy 1800 set up
with measurements and angles, maybe even a builder's install manual. If
anyone can steer me in the right direction I would be most appreciative.


Here's to punching holes in the sky...

Jose LeBrasseur



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Version: 8.5.426 / Virus Database: 270.14.96/2548 - Release Date:
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[srwhitenect]

From the cabin bottom.
You obviously recognized what I stumbled into long before me. Your install
method is the only other safe alternative to what I did but I had everything
assembled before hand. I milled out a 3* wedge and also drilled the thru holes
at a 3* tilt along with spacers/washers for the bolts to shoulder against.
Everything went together in the field by hand. My mentioning this, Wayne, is
that I have seen a few Rebels on floats with signs of stress around the front
fittings- cracked corner wraps, smoking rivets on the lower angles, etc and
felt this was a possible result of assembly with a large torsional load on that
upper front fitting.

Steve



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[Jose & Terry]

Thanks Bob and everyone, you've been great. Oh and Bob, your elite looks
awsome.

Headin' up...

Jose

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Andrews" <robert@montanasky.us>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2009 10:57 PM
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] pk1800 float rigging

Jose,

Think all the bases have been covered. Mating up your PKs to your Rebel
now
should be pretty straight forward. The float step location w/r/t to the
wing chord should be the same regardless of float mfg. And the height
above
the spreader bar is pretty much what you want it to be ... but I see no
need
to go past 30" (spreader bar to fuselage dist). And the list here has
pretty much nailed down an acceptable throat angle ... 3.5 degrees cabin
bottom to float top deck. The rest is just a matter of making parts. So
record all this, and when ready, hang your Rebel from a sky hook, slide
those PK's underneath, and start making struts.

Good luck, Bob 612e

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Jose
&
Terry
Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2009 8:33 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] pk1800 float rigging

Oh yes, paying very close attention, and with the wife's assistance
managed
to find the drawing. This is the help I was looking for. Staying tuned
in...

Cheers,

Jose

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Andrews" <robert@montanasky.us>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2009 9:21 PM
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] pk1800 float rigging

This is good discussion Wayne, thanks for chiming in.

The drawing is a bit out of scale though - with the three variables as I
mentioned, the aft struts are nearly a clean 90 degree angle with the top
deck to the (my) aft fuselage fitting - not at the angle going aft to the
fuselage as the drawing shows. Note, a second set of aft float fitting
were
added to my Elite one bulkhead position fwd then the MAM fitting - which
I
kept in by the way for a tie off for my fish stringer.

Regarding the throat angle, YES I did mean to say 4.25 degrees w/r/t the
bottom of the wing and the float top deck thanks for the correction, and
YES
this angle is right at the lower end of an acceptable throat angle
window.
On this next rigging, I am opening up the throat angle at least one full
degree (just as you mentioned). With the 4.25 degree (wing bottom to top
deck) throat, she was quite happy staying in the sweet spot ... and
although
flying off on her own would eventually occur, it was well past 60-65 kts.
The extended wing tips are likely a factor too ... maybe. Anyway, a
little
manual encouragement (aft stick) at a more reasonable lift off speed
(slower) once up on the step does lead to a clean take-off. I haven't
experienced any digging in with the float tails as you mentioned ...
might
be the aft spreader bar on the Montana floats are fwd (one full float bay
I
think) from that of the MAM floats, and to the best of my knowledge, they
have never made contact with the surface of the water ... but I don't
know
that for sure.

Jose - It's this kind of dialog that will help you get yours "tuned in"
...
so hope you are paying attention!! Keith at MFC has rigged more Murphy
aircraft then I think he himself can count ... from the little ones to
the
biggest ones, so contacting him is surely the right thing to do. There's
a
link to his MFC website with his contact info on my builders site home
page.

Downloading the drawing is really pretty easy. Go to the builders site
https://mail.dcsol.com/rebelgen.htm then click on the "Files" option in
the
red menu bar at the top, and log in with your own account ... or use the
username=rebel password=builder open login option, then click on the "New
Files" button (with 7 days works fine) ... and you should see it.

Cheers, Bob 612e


-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Wayne
G. O'Shea
Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2009 5:35 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] pk1800 float rigging

Nice drawing Bob !!!

Would just like to correct your terminology. 4.25* is your throat angle
from

the float deck to the BOTTOM of wing.. not the chord.

Do you find that the airplane will fly off the water with that low of a
throat angle??.. or do you have to work/force it off the water or let it
run

up to speed to depart? We have found anything under 2.5 degrees deck to
cabin bottom needs a one float lift or has to be run up to 60 mph to get
off

the water as the wing can't do it's job that flat. Trying to rotate at
any
slower speed buries the float tails. 3 to 3.5 degrees seems to work the
best, for me anyhow, for 150 HP Rebels and 180 HP Elites anyhow.

Cheers,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jose & Terry" <tj22@mts.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2009 8:22 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] pk1800 float rigging

Hello Bob, thanks for the great information, just one question though,
my
computer ability is lower than my ability to eat chips so if you could
step
by step me towards the upload you done that would be great.

Thanks,

Jose


----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Andrews" <robert@montanasky.us>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2009 10:17 AM
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] pk1800 float rigging

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[Bob Andrews]

Thanks Jose ... she's pretty awesome in the air too !!

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Jose &
Terry
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 4:53 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] pk1800 float rigging

Thanks Bob and everyone, you've been great. Oh and Bob, your elite looks
awsome.

Headin' up...

Jose

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Andrews" <robert@montanasky.us>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2009 10:57 PM
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] pk1800 float rigging

Jose,

Think all the bases have been covered. Mating up your PKs to your Rebel
now
should be pretty straight forward. The float step location w/r/t to the
wing chord should be the same regardless of float mfg. And the height
above
the spreader bar is pretty much what you want it to be ... but I see no
need
to go past 30" (spreader bar to fuselage dist). And the list here has
pretty much nailed down an acceptable throat angle ... 3.5 degrees cabin
bottom to float top deck. The rest is just a matter of making parts. So
record all this, and when ready, hang your Rebel from a sky hook, slide
those PK's underneath, and start making struts.

Good luck, Bob 612e

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Jose

&
Terry
Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2009 8:33 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] pk1800 float rigging

Oh yes, paying very close attention, and with the wife's assistance
managed
to find the drawing. This is the help I was looking for. Staying tuned
in...

Cheers,

Jose

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Andrews" <robert@montanasky.us>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2009 9:21 PM
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] pk1800 float rigging

This is good discussion Wayne, thanks for chiming in.

The drawing is a bit out of scale though - with the three variables as I
mentioned, the aft struts are nearly a clean 90 degree angle with the top
deck to the (my) aft fuselage fitting - not at the angle going aft to the
fuselage as the drawing shows. Note, a second set of aft float fitting
were
added to my Elite one bulkhead position fwd then the MAM fitting - which
I
kept in by the way for a tie off for my fish stringer.

Regarding the throat angle, YES I did mean to say 4.25 degrees w/r/t the
bottom of the wing and the float top deck thanks for the correction, and
YES
this angle is right at the lower end of an acceptable throat angle
window.
On this next rigging, I am opening up the throat angle at least one full
degree (just as you mentioned). With the 4.25 degree (wing bottom to top
deck) throat, she was quite happy staying in the sweet spot ... and
although
flying off on her own would eventually occur, it was well past 60-65 kts.
The extended wing tips are likely a factor too ... maybe. Anyway, a
little
manual encouragement (aft stick) at a more reasonable lift off speed
(slower) once up on the step does lead to a clean take-off. I haven't
experienced any digging in with the float tails as you mentioned ...
might
be the aft spreader bar on the Montana floats are fwd (one full float bay
I
think) from that of the MAM floats, and to the best of my knowledge, they
have never made contact with the surface of the water ... but I don't
know
that for sure.

Jose - It's this kind of dialog that will help you get yours "tuned in"
...
so hope you are paying attention!! Keith at MFC has rigged more Murphy
aircraft then I think he himself can count ... from the little ones to
the
biggest ones, so contacting him is surely the right thing to do. There's
a
link to his MFC website with his contact info on my builders site home
page.

Downloading the drawing is really pretty easy. Go to the builders site
https://mail.dcsol.com/rebelgen.htm then click on the "Files" option in
the
red menu bar at the top, and log in with your own account ... or use the
username=rebel password=builder open login option, then click on the "New
Files" button (with 7 days works fine) ... and you should see it.

Cheers, Bob 612e


-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Wayne
G. O'Shea
Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2009 5:35 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] pk1800 float rigging

Nice drawing Bob !!!

Would just like to correct your terminology. 4.25* is your throat angle
from

the float deck to the BOTTOM of wing.. not the chord.

Do you find that the airplane will fly off the water with that low of a
throat angle??.. or do you have to work/force it off the water or let it
run

up to speed to depart? We have found anything under 2.5 degrees deck to
cabin bottom needs a one float lift or has to be run up to 60 mph to get
off

the water as the wing can't do it's job that flat. Trying to rotate at
any
slower speed buries the float tails. 3 to 3.5 degrees seems to work the
best, for me anyhow, for 150 HP Rebels and 180 HP Elites anyhow.

Cheers,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jose & Terry" <tj22@mts.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2009 8:22 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] pk1800 float rigging

Hello Bob, thanks for the great information, just one question though,
my
computer ability is lower than my ability to eat chips so if you could
step
by step me towards the upload you done that would be great.

Thanks,

Jose


----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Andrews" <robert@montanasky.us>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2009 10:17 AM
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] pk1800 float rigging

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[Ken]

Arghhh
This is a major hassle for me as I've already made new top forward
fittings to get around my radiator and they can't be tilted. Best
solution for me is probably to drill the bolt hole out larger on an
angle and fit a bushing for the fuselage to fitting bolt. Or drill the
bushing on an angle. That would also be a possible solution for anyone
who has pre-made the struts as per the frigg'n manual.

MAM's strut material is too thin to use only one bolt through the strut
material into the fitting IMO. The rebel fuselage fitting is unsuitable
for doing it that way anyhow.

thanks for the heads up Steve

Ken

srwhitenect@dcsol.com wrote:

snip
I've got a question now that Wayne is on topic. What has been the norm for
the difference in angle between the front strut attachment fitting and the
bottom of the fuse on spring gear setups? Has everyone just been mounting
the front fitting and letting the tail of the plane down so that the rear fitting
lines up? If the floats and struts are assembled as per the manual, the top
attach fitting is on the same plane as the top of the floats (no angle). The
rear fittings are about 5" away from the fuse fittings. If the rear of the plane
is lowered to align the rear fittings, you end up with about 3-3.5* of throat
angle. What about the torsional load you just placed on the front fittings to
align the rear? This wouldn't be a problem if the fittings had just one bolt
holding the struts on to the fittings like the majority of other float
manufactures. You'd be able to achieve any angle required without placing
any loads on any of the attachments. Murphy uses 3 bolts per fitting thus
making them rigid.

Steve W 637R

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