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[rebel-builders] Cowl

Converted from Wildcat! database. (read only)
mbetti

[rebel-builders] Cowl

Post by mbetti » Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:47 am

Al,
I been talking to several exhaust people, Forsling, Vetterman, and Jacks system which I don't recall the name at the present. Anyway, is the Rebel and Elite exhaust identical?
Mike

On Wed, 17 May 2006 08:15:32 -0400, rebel-builders@dcsol.com said:
Mike:

The exhaust system I have what was advertised at the time as the
standard Murphy exhaust system - made by Forsling. It does not have
mufflers, but it does have cabin heat muffs that wrap around the
straight through pipes at the exit end. The trouble is, these muffs
tend to stick down below the floor of the cabin, and almost below the
line of the cowl. The system that Jack Wiebe bought has true mufflers
and does not stick out as far. I just left the cabin heat muffs off, so
at this point, I have no heat in the airplane, which isn't bad, as I
don't plan any winter flying on floats.

Also, I'm surprised at these reports of twisted mounts etc. The carb.
on my O360 is not on the centerline, which means the carb air box has to
be offset if you want the cowl air inlet to be centered. That took
quite a bit of cut and try on mine. I think I made three carb. air box
plates before I got it right.

Al





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Jean Poirier

[rebel-builders] Cowl

Post by Jean Poirier » Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:47 am

Hello

About the exaust system...

I bought a Cessna 152 complete exaust system (used) for my Rebel (Lycoming
0-235).... My planning was to use it with a "homemade" cowling. I bought
also a PA-22 nose bowl copy (a 2 parts one) for the cowling..... Is
anything wrong with that? Wag-Aero list a C152 complete exaust system for
under $900.00 usd! Look good?!?!

Jean
Rebel 747R
----- Original Message -----
From: <mbetti@up.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 2:06 PM
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Cowl

Al,
I been talking to several exhaust people, Forsling, Vetterman, and Jacks
system which I don't recall the name at the present. Anyway, is the Rebel
and Elite exhaust identical?
Mike

On Wed, 17 May 2006 08:15:32 -0400, rebel-builders@dcsol.com said:
Mike:

The exhaust system I have what was advertised at the time as the
standard Murphy exhaust system - made by Forsling. It does not have
mufflers, but it does have cabin heat muffs that wrap around the
straight through pipes at the exit end. The trouble is, these muffs
tend to stick down below the floor of the cabin, and almost below the
line of the cowl. The system that Jack Wiebe bought has true mufflers
and does not stick out as far. I just left the cabin heat muffs off, so
at this point, I have no heat in the airplane, which isn't bad, as I
don't plan any winter flying on floats.

Also, I'm surprised at these reports of twisted mounts etc. The carb.
on my O360 is not on the centerline, which means the carb air box has to
be offset if you want the cowl air inlet to be centered. That took
quite a bit of cut and try on mine. I think I made three carb. air box
plates before I got it right.

Al





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Mike Betti

[rebel-builders] Cowl

Post by Mike Betti » Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:47 am

Drew,
It looks like somewhere between 1 and 2 degrees of twist to the right while
sitting in the seats or a 1/4 bubble on a level. I have some angle up, again
about 1/4 bubble on a level.
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: "Drew Dalgleish" <drewjan@cabletv.on.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 9:16 AM
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Cowl

At 08:15 AM 5/17/2006 -0400, you wrote:
Mike:

The exhaust system I have what was advertised at the time as the
standard Murphy exhaust system - made by Forsling. It does not have
mufflers, but it does have cabin heat muffs that wrap around the
straight through pipes at the exit end. The trouble is, these muffs
tend to stick down below the floor of the cabin, and almost below the
line of the cowl. The system that Jack Wiebe bought has true mufflers
and does not stick out as far. I just left the cabin heat muffs off, so
at this point, I have no heat in the airplane, which isn't bad, as I
don't plan any winter flying on floats.

Also, I'm surprised at these reports of twisted mounts etc. The carb.
on my O360 is not on the centerline, which means the carb air box has to
be offset if you want the cowl air inlet to be centered. That took
quite a bit of cut and try on mine. I think I made three carb. air box
plates before I got it right.

Al
I borrowed Jack Weibe's motor mount jig to build my mount. It has a few
degrees angle to the right and maybe some down angle as well. Is this the
twist you're reffering to? If so it's there on purpose to counteract the P
factor.




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Mike Betti

[rebel-builders] Cowl

Post by Mike Betti » Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:47 am

Al,
You mention about the carb offset which I also have. I have the Vans airbox
too, did you make your own base plate with an offset in it and not use the
kit piece? Makes good sense if you did, good idea.
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan Hepburn" <ahepburn@renc.igs.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 7:15 AM
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Cowl

Mike:

The exhaust system I have what was advertised at the time as the
standard Murphy exhaust system - made by Forsling. It does not have
mufflers, but it does have cabin heat muffs that wrap around the
straight through pipes at the exit end. The trouble is, these muffs
tend to stick down below the floor of the cabin, and almost below the
line of the cowl. The system that Jack Wiebe bought has true mufflers
and does not stick out as far. I just left the cabin heat muffs off, so
at this point, I have no heat in the airplane, which isn't bad, as I
don't plan any winter flying on floats.

Also, I'm surprised at these reports of twisted mounts etc. The carb.
on my O360 is not on the centerline, which means the carb air box has to
be offset if you want the cowl air inlet to be centered. That took
quite a bit of cut and try on mine. I think I made three carb. air box
plates before I got it right.

Al





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Drew Dalgleish

[rebel-builders] Cowl

Post by Drew Dalgleish » Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:47 am

The angle to the right sound correct I'm not sure about the up angle though.


t 05:15 PM 5/17/2006 -0500, you wrote:
Drew,
It looks like somewhere between 1 and 2 degrees of twist to the right while
sitting in the seats or a 1/4 bubble on a level. I have some angle up, again
about 1/4 bubble on a level.
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: "Drew Dalgleish" <drewjan@cabletv.on.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 9:16 AM
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Cowl

At 08:15 AM 5/17/2006 -0400, you wrote:
Mike:

The exhaust system I have what was advertised at the time as the
standard Murphy exhaust system - made by Forsling. It does not have
mufflers, but it does have cabin heat muffs that wrap around the
straight through pipes at the exit end. The trouble is, these muffs
tend to stick down below the floor of the cabin, and almost below the
line of the cowl. The system that Jack Wiebe bought has true mufflers
and does not stick out as far. I just left the cabin heat muffs off, so
at this point, I have no heat in the airplane, which isn't bad, as I
don't plan any winter flying on floats.

Also, I'm surprised at these reports of twisted mounts etc. The carb.
on my O360 is not on the centerline, which means the carb air box has to
be offset if you want the cowl air inlet to be centered. That took
quite a bit of cut and try on mine. I think I made three carb. air box
plates before I got it right.

Al
I borrowed Jack Weibe's motor mount jig to build my mount. It has a few
degrees angle to the right and maybe some down angle as well. Is this the
twist you're reffering to? If so it's there on purpose to counteract the P
factor.
Drew



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Drew Dalgleish

[rebel-builders] Cowl

Post by Drew Dalgleish » Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:47 am

At 03:09 PM 5/17/2006 -0400, you wrote:
Hello

About the exaust system...

I bought a Cessna 152 complete exaust system (used) for my Rebel (Lycoming
0-235).... My planning was to use it with a "homemade" cowling. I bought
also a PA-22 nose bowl copy (a 2 parts one) for the cowling..... Is
anything wrong with that? Wag-Aero list a C152 complete exaust system for
under $900.00 usd! Look good?!?!

Jean
Rebel 747R
Hi Jean I'm using a PA22 nosebowl it works great. Check the archives for
lots of pictures of the 4 door cowl. I don't see anything wrong with a 152
exhaust it should be quieter than most rebels.

Drew



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Mike Betti

[rebel-builders] Cowl

Post by Mike Betti » Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:47 am

How long of a prop spacer is required on the Elite with a Lycoming?
Thanks,
Mike Betti
771E

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan Hepburn" <ahepburn@renc.igs.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 7:15 AM
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Cowl

Mike:

The exhaust system I have what was advertised at the time as the
standard Murphy exhaust system - made by Forsling. It does not have
mufflers, but it does have cabin heat muffs that wrap around the
straight through pipes at the exit end. The trouble is, these muffs
tend to stick down below the floor of the cabin, and almost below the
line of the cowl. The system that Jack Wiebe bought has true mufflers
and does not stick out as far. I just left the cabin heat muffs off, so
at this point, I have no heat in the airplane, which isn't bad, as I
don't plan any winter flying on floats.

Also, I'm surprised at these reports of twisted mounts etc. The carb.
on my O360 is not on the centerline, which means the carb air box has to
be offset if you want the cowl air inlet to be centered. That took
quite a bit of cut and try on mine. I think I made three carb. air box
plates before I got it right.

Al





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Alan Hepburn

[rebel-builders] Cowl

Post by Alan Hepburn » Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:48 am

With a fixed pitch Sensenich it's 2".

Al






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Mike Betti

[rebel-builders] Cowl

Post by Mike Betti » Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:48 am

That's what I need.
Thanks,
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan Hepburn" <ahepburn@renc.igs.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, May 20, 2006 9:51 PM
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Cowl

With a fixed pitch Sensenich it's 2".

Al






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Wayne G. O'Shea

[rebel-builders] Cowl

Post by Wayne G. O'Shea » Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:48 am

"Jack's" motor mount jig was taken off of my motor mount just before I
installed it on DJK.

I can still remember Jack's arrival and stating "when did Midland become
4000 feet. My CFS shows it as 2000" (hard back 81/2 x 11 book from
yesteryear!)...and then his poor passenger holding the mount above his body
in an Emeraude as they headed back to Stoney Creek!

Wayne


----- Original Message -----
From: "Drew Dalgleish" <drewjan@cabletv.on.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 10:16 AM
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Cowl

At 08:15 AM 5/17/2006 -0400, you wrote:
Mike:

The exhaust system I have what was advertised at the time as the
standard Murphy exhaust system - made by Forsling. It does not have
mufflers, but it does have cabin heat muffs that wrap around the
straight through pipes at the exit end. The trouble is, these muffs
tend to stick down below the floor of the cabin, and almost below the
line of the cowl. The system that Jack Wiebe bought has true mufflers
and does not stick out as far. I just left the cabin heat muffs off, so
at this point, I have no heat in the airplane, which isn't bad, as I
don't plan any winter flying on floats.

Also, I'm surprised at these reports of twisted mounts etc. The carb.
on my O360 is not on the centerline, which means the carb air box has to
be offset if you want the cowl air inlet to be centered. That took
quite a bit of cut and try on mine. I think I made three carb. air box
plates before I got it right.

Al
I borrowed Jack Weibe's motor mount jig to build my mount. It has a few
degrees angle to the right and maybe some down angle as well. Is this the
twist you're reffering to? If so it's there on purpose to counteract the P
factor.




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Jeff Micheal

[rebel-builders] cowl

Post by Jeff Micheal » Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:46 pm

Bernard,

With engine cooling, the typical rule of thumb is your cowl air exit should
be 3 times larger than the air intake hole(s) being 3:1 or even 4:1.

Walter, have you ever figured out what your cowl airflow ratio is ? Would be
interesting to know if it is within this "typical" setup ratio.

And of coarse, the infamous cowl lip at the aft bottom does do wonders for
extracting air out of the cowl.

Cheers,
Jeff


On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 6:33 PM, Ralph Baker <rebaker@sc.rr.com> wrote:
Bernard,
When Walter says "make the exit area much larger" it does not mean to cut
ir forward. It means looking from the rear to make it project lower and /or
wider so there is a bigger opening when viewed from the rear. Also, bring
the cowl opening to the rear perhaps 50 cm to the rear of the firewall. One
final suggestion is to build a small fairing for the bottom lip of the
firewall so air coming down the firewall can exit easily and not create
turbulence at the bottom lip.
Ralph Baker



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Walter Klatt

[rebel-builders] cowl

Post by Walter Klatt » Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:46 pm

I am not sure what the correct ratio is, and have heard different
recommendations. I did a lot of experimenting with my old 320 installation
before it was acceptable. Thankfully, I hit it right the first time with the
new 360 cowl.

With the 320, I started off at about 1.5 exit to inlet (with a lip, and some
other tricks). That was OK on wheels, but woefully inadequate on floats. I
then enlarged the exit a couple times until I had barely acceptable cooling.
I didn't measure it, but the exit was very large, probably at least 4 to 1.
I also smoothed the inlets, added an eyebrow on the left side, and smoothed
the lower firewall lip.

After all this, the cooling was fine in cruise (below 400F CHTs). But when
doing long climbs in the hot summer (35C+), my #3 CHT would still get up to
about 430F, and I sometimes had to back off and do a step climb. I then
changed the inlets to make them larger, and that totally solved the problem.
I probably could have reduced the exit after that, but I didn't bother.

On my 360 installation, I used the 2.5 inch prop spacer to provide more
clearance on the inlets. I had only a 1.75 spacer on the 320, which I think
was a big part of the problem, too. With the 360 cowl, I made the rear exit
larger by lowering that centre rear straight portion a few inches, which
didn't alter the overall design shape that much. My old 320 one was
downright ugly.

I think the ratio depends on the inlet size. If you have small inlets, then
you need a larger ratio exit to help suck out the air. Of course, the faster
you can fly, the smaller the inlets need to be, and probably not as large a
ratio.

I should mention that all my cooling problems had to do with CHTs not oil
cooling. I have a good sized oil cooler mounted on the rear baffle, and that
was never a problem. With the 320, my hottest cylinder was always #3, but on
the 360, my temps are more equal, with #1 being slightly hotter during
climb. As least I can control that one with the baffle air dam on the front.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Jeff
Micheal
Sent: November 14, 2009 9:00 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] cowl

Bernard,

With engine cooling, the typical rule of thumb is your cowl air exit should
be 3 times larger than the air intake hole(s) being 3:1 or even 4:1.

Walter, have you ever figured out what your cowl airflow ratio is ? Would be
interesting to know if it is within this "typical" setup ratio.

And of coarse, the infamous cowl lip at the aft bottom does do wonders for
extracting air out of the cowl.

Cheers,
Jeff


On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 6:33 PM, Ralph Baker <rebaker@sc.rr.com> wrote:
Bernard,
When Walter says "make the exit area much larger" it does not mean to cut
ir forward. It means looking from the rear to make it project lower and
/or
wider so there is a bigger opening when viewed from the rear. Also, bring
the cowl opening to the rear perhaps 50 cm to the rear of the firewall.
One
final suggestion is to build a small fairing for the bottom lip of the
firewall so air coming down the firewall can exit easily and not create
turbulence at the bottom lip.
Ralph Baker



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Dave Fife

[rebel-builders] cowl

Post by Dave Fife » Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:46 pm

Hi all your Rebel Builders.

Drew Dalgleish

[rebel-builders] cowl

Post by Drew Dalgleish » Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:46 pm

At 07:00 AM 17/11/2009 -0800, you wrote:
[quote]Hi all your Rebel Builders.

Drew Dalgleish

[rebel-builders] cowl

Post by Drew Dalgleish » Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:46 pm

At 07:00 AM 17/11/2009 -0800, you wrote:
[quote]Hi all your Rebel Builders.


Locked