Aileron/Flap Hinge Mount Fit?

[David Ricker]

Hi Folks

We are in the process of building the first wing of our Elite and have a question about
the fit of the Aileron/Flap Hinge Mount (W125), I am pretty sure this applies to all
Rebels and not just the Elite though.

Specifically the manual tells us to drill the hinge mounting points in the backing plates
out to #11, presumably to match the hinges. The problem comes in the match up to the
hinges, the centre distance of the existing holes in the rear spar is 3.940" while the
mounting holes in hinge are 3.968 a difference of .028", which is the correct spacing and
how have you resolved this? I see the options to be: a) file the spar centres out to the
correct spacing of the hinges since the holes are still "40, or b) bend the hinges to
meet the spar. I am concerned at making the wrong adjustment and having a poor fit of
the flap/ailerons.

Any suggestions? Has anyone else had this problem and how did you resolve it? Wayne,
you have probably built more Rebel wings as anyone here, any suggestions? (Murphy should
give you something for the time you spend helping builders but perhaps more about that
later...)

Thanks

Dave R.

--
David A. Ricker P. Eng.
DARTEC Engineering Inc.
Fall River, Nova Scotia
Canada

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[Bob Patterson]

Hi Dave !

I don't know the best solution, but I sure <wouldn't> recommend
trying to bend those aileron hangers ! They're pretty heavy extrusions,
and I'd really be afraid of stress cracks developing ....

......bobp

-------------------------------orig.---------------------------------------
At 02:35 PM 11/4/00 -0400, you wrote:

Hi Folks

We are in the process of building the first wing of our Elite and have a

question about

the fit of the Aileron/Flap Hinge Mount (W125), I am pretty sure this

applies to all

Rebels and not just the Elite though.

Specifically the manual tells us to drill the hinge mounting points in the

backing plates

out to #11, presumably to match the hinges. The problem comes in the match

up to the

hinges, the centre distance of the existing holes in the rear spar is

3.940" while the

mounting holes in hinge are 3.968 a difference of .028", which is the

correct spacing and

how have you resolved this? I see the options to be: a) file the spar

centres out to the

correct spacing of the hinges since the holes are still "40, or b) bend the

hinges to

meet the spar. I am concerned at making the wrong adjustment and having a

poor fit of

the flap/ailerons.

Any suggestions? Has anyone else had this problem and how did you resolve

it? Wayne,

you have probably built more Rebel wings as anyone here, any suggestions?

(Murphy should

give you something for the time you spend helping builders but perhaps more

about that

later...)

Thanks

Dave R.

--
David A. Ricker P. Eng.
DARTEC Engineering Inc.
Fall River, Nova Scotia
Canada

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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

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Your following message has been delivered to the 162 members of
the list murphy-rebel@dcsol.com at 21:42:40 on 4 Nov 2000.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


Dave, I know it's hard for us engineering types, but you need to set aside
your vernier and use it just to verify sheet thickness', when making parts
from unmarked sheets. I think to quote Darryl is "we are not building a
Swiss watch, but we are not building a bridge either!"

As for the hinges, I always drill the top hole and then bolt the hinge
bracket in place. Then I use the hinge bracket as a guide to drill the
bottom hole to #12. It is not a necessity if you don't have a full # bit
set, but you will find a #12 leaves no "slop" for a bolt compared to a #11
hole. I always use a #12 drill for bolts and a #11 for rivets.

Since you have not drilled your holes out yet, you have nothing to worry
about. Drill the top hole, bolt the bracket in place and, using the bracket
as a guide, drill the bottom hole the .028 lower than that predrilled #40
hole (that will be gone once you drill the #12 or #11 hole).

As for MAM "giving" me something for my time spent helping builders, Colleen
is pretty good to me when I need stuff for refurbs and rebuilds (and that
covers a <VERY> small portion of my time spent on this list server),
although what I would really like is a link from MAM's website to mine to
sell finished/flying Rebels, but Darryl can't be bothered to respond to my
requests or e-mails. Sometimes I wonder why I bother, but it is a GREAT
little aircraft and I just can't seem to turn my back on it!

Blue skies,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

----- Original Message -----
From: "David Ricker" <ricker@dbis.ns.ca>
To: " (Murphy Rebel Builders List)" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 04, 2000 1:35 PM
Subject: Aileron/Flap Hinge Mount Fit?

Hi Folks

We are in the process of building the first wing of our Elite and have a

question about

the fit of the Aileron/Flap Hinge Mount (W125), I am pretty sure this

applies to all

Rebels and not just the Elite though.

Specifically the manual tells us to drill the hinge mounting points in the

backing plates

out to #11, presumably to match the hinges. The problem comes in the

match up to the

hinges, the centre distance of the existing holes in the rear spar is

3.940" while the

mounting holes in hinge are 3.968 a difference of .028", which is the

correct spacing and

how have you resolved this? I see the options to be: a) file the spar

centres out to the

correct spacing of the hinges since the holes are still "40, or b) bend

the hinges to

meet the spar. I am concerned at making the wrong adjustment and having a

poor fit of

the flap/ailerons.

Any suggestions? Has anyone else had this problem and how did you resolve

it? Wayne,

you have probably built more Rebel wings as anyone here, any suggestions?

(Murphy should

give you something for the time you spend helping builders but perhaps

more about that

later...)

Thanks

Dave R.

--
David A. Ricker P. Eng.
DARTEC Engineering Inc.
Fall River, Nova Scotia
Canada

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[David Ricker]

Hi Wayne

Yeah, it is hard to not approach this like an Engineer since we are programmed to think
that way! That said, it does seem unusual that the spar and the hinge would be
fabricated on CNC (very precise) tooling and not come out with the same spacing.....I am
sure these things would save Murphy some time on the tech support line.

Your answer though is exactly what I was looking for, a method that has been proven to
work. I was concerned that if the hinge was biased one way or the other there would be
interference problems etc. I was also doing the Engineer thing and being cautious before
cutting metal! I'll try your suggestion for the #12 drill for the bolts also. By the
way, do you also do this where a reamed hole is called for, since it would be quicker?

Interesting your comment about Murphy responding to inquires, lately I have been
disappointed in the quantity and quality of response I have received to tech inquiries
via e-mail. I'll leave it at that but perhaps a gentle question or two from Bob P., our
"inside" connection would shed some light on this.......is that possible Bob? (Bob, if
you want to talk details, we can do it off - line.)

BTW, nice write-up in the latest COPA News, by the sound of it not only are you
cultivating a good flock of Rebels but the other amphib fliers have found a nice home
there too!

Thanks again,

Dave R.
Elite 583


Wayne G. O'Shea wrote:

Dave, I know it's hard for us engineering types, but you need to set aside
your vernier and use it just to verify sheet thickness', when making parts
from unmarked sheets. I think to quote Darryl is "we are not building a
Swiss watch, but we are not building a bridge either!"

As for the hinges, I always drill the top hole and then bolt the hinge
bracket in place. Then I use the hinge bracket as a guide to drill the
bottom hole to #12. It is not a necessity if you don't have a full # bit
set, but you will find a #12 leaves no "slop" for a bolt compared to a #11
hole. I always use a #12 drill for bolts and a #11 for rivets.

Since you have not drilled your holes out yet, you have nothing to worry
about. Drill the top hole, bolt the bracket in place and, using the bracket
as a guide, drill the bottom hole the .028 lower than that predrilled #40
hole (that will be gone once you drill the #12 or #11 hole).

As for MAM "giving" me something for my time spent helping builders, Colleen
is pretty good to me when I need stuff for refurbs and rebuilds (and that
covers a <VERY> small portion of my time spent on this list server),
although what I would really like is a link from MAM's website to mine to
sell finished/flying Rebels, but Darryl can't be bothered to respond to my
requests or e-mails. Sometimes I wonder why I bother, but it is a GREAT
little aircraft and I just can't seem to turn my back on it!

Blue skies,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

----- Original Message -----
From: "David Ricker" <ricker@dbis.ns.ca>
To: " (Murphy Rebel Builders List)" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 04, 2000 1:35 PM
Subject: Aileron/Flap Hinge Mount Fit?

Hi Folks

We are in the process of building the first wing of our Elite and have a

question about

the fit of the Aileron/Flap Hinge Mount (W125), I am pretty sure this

applies to all

Rebels and not just the Elite though.

Specifically the manual tells us to drill the hinge mounting points in the

backing plates

out to #11, presumably to match the hinges. The problem comes in the

match up to the

hinges, the centre distance of the existing holes in the rear spar is

3.940" while the

mounting holes in hinge are 3.968 a difference of .028", which is the

correct spacing and

how have you resolved this? I see the options to be: a) file the spar

centres out to the

correct spacing of the hinges since the holes are still "40, or b) bend

the hinges to

meet the spar. I am concerned at making the wrong adjustment and having a

poor fit of

the flap/ailerons.

Any suggestions? Has anyone else had this problem and how did you resolve

it? Wayne,

you have probably built more Rebel wings as anyone here, any suggestions?

(Murphy should

give you something for the time you spend helping builders but perhaps

more about that

later...)

Thanks

Dave R.

--
David A. Ricker P. Eng.
DARTEC Engineering Inc.
Fall River, Nova Scotia
Canada

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--
David A. Ricker P. Eng.
DARTEC Engineering Inc.
Fall River, Nova Scotia
Canada

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[David Ricker]

Bob

The extrusions are made from an alloy which permits a certain amount of ductility
otherwise they wouldn't extrude well. If they were cast rather than extruded I would be
more concerned about them. The bending would also be much less than is done to the
spring gear legs (made from bar stock) if you want to use that as a point of reference.
Sorry about the Engineerese but I can't help that, we are just programmed that way!

Actually, I was expecting the solution would be along the lines that Wayne has suggested
but knowing whether to bias the position up or down was an important concern.

Thanks

Dave R



Bob Patterson wrote:

Hi Dave !

I don't know the best solution, but I sure <wouldn't> recommend
trying to bend those aileron hangers ! They're pretty heavy extrusions,
and I'd really be afraid of stress cracks developing ....

......bobp

-------------------------------orig.---------------------------------------
At 02:35 PM 11/4/00 -0400, you wrote:

Hi Folks

We are in the process of building the first wing of our Elite and have a

question about

the fit of the Aileron/Flap Hinge Mount (W125), I am pretty sure this

applies to all

Rebels and not just the Elite though.

Specifically the manual tells us to drill the hinge mounting points in the

backing plates

out to #11, presumably to match the hinges. The problem comes in the match

up to the

hinges, the centre distance of the existing holes in the rear spar is

3.940" while the

mounting holes in hinge are 3.968 a difference of .028", which is the

correct spacing and

how have you resolved this? I see the options to be: a) file the spar

centres out to the

correct spacing of the hinges since the holes are still "40, or b) bend the

hinges to

meet the spar. I am concerned at making the wrong adjustment and having a

poor fit of

the flap/ailerons.

Any suggestions? Has anyone else had this problem and how did you resolve

it? Wayne,

you have probably built more Rebel wings as anyone here, any suggestions?

(Murphy should

give you something for the time you spend helping builders but perhaps more

about that

later...)

Thanks

Dave R.

--
David A. Ricker P. Eng.
DARTEC Engineering Inc.
Fall River, Nova Scotia
Canada

*--------------------------------------------------------------------------

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between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/lists/default.htm
*--------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------*

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*-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------*

--
David A. Ricker P. Eng.
DARTEC Engineering Inc.
Fall River, Nova Scotia
Canada

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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your following message has been delivered to the 161 members of
the list murphy-rebel@dcsol.com at 19:50:15 on 5 Nov 2000.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


WHAT'S A REAMER??

Seriously, there really isn't anywhere on the Rebel/Elite to get too worried
about, or carried away, reaming holes. Mostly just a waste of time, if using
good drill bits. All those spar cap holes etc, just drill, debur, EP420 (or
what have you), coat the bolt shank, insert in hole, washer(s) and nut, then
tighten. The epoxy will fill the extra <minor> spaces and also keep the
moisture/corrosion out! The #12 hole may get a little tight on the 1/2" plus
distance on the spar cap strips so you may have to use a #11 drill, but #12
works really good on things like the stab attach brackets etc, that get
bolted in, to take any play out of the assembly. May not be too many of
these on the Elite's cantilever tail though, as compared to the Rebel's
"foldable" tail feathers.

Thanks for the comment about the Trumpeter Swan article. I found it read a
little choppy after Garth did his editorial "hacking", but I guess he had to
make it fit the page. I think the article was beneficial all around, for the
Swan program, for Homebuilders, free advertising for me AND Murphy Aircraft!
Also a good place for the story to be displayed to show the certified owners
some of the benefits to flying a high quality Homebuilt (if they bother to
read that section!). I don't know of any "Spam Can" that can do NINETY
degree bank turns to circle a swan, at a height that I probably could have
trolled for fish from, while the A/S indicator was pegged at ZERO (lets just
say that the picture of the swans <COULD> have been taken from the air,
<WITHOUT> a telephoto lens!). As long as the engine is making power in my
Rebel (and I presume most of the others), it will not stall or roll over on
it's back like a Cessna would!

Blue skies,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

----- Original Message -----
From: "David Ricker" <ricker@dbis.ns.ca>
To: " (Murphy Rebel Builders List)" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2000 3:01 PM
Subject: Re: Aileron/Flap Hinge Mount Fit?

Hi Wayne

Yeah, it is hard to not approach this like an Engineer since we are

programmed to think

that way! That said, it does seem unusual that the spar and the hinge

would be

fabricated on CNC (very precise) tooling and not come out with the same

spacing.....I am

sure these things would save Murphy some time on the tech support line.

Your answer though is exactly what I was looking for, a method that has

been proven to

work. I was concerned that if the hinge was biased one way or the other

there would be

interference problems etc. I was also doing the Engineer thing and being

cautious before

cutting metal! I'll try your suggestion for the #12 drill for the bolts

also. By the

way, do you also do this where a reamed hole is called for, since it would

be quicker?

Interesting your comment about Murphy responding to inquires, lately I

have been

disappointed in the quantity and quality of response I have received to

tech inquiries

via e-mail. I'll leave it at that but perhaps a gentle question or two

from Bob P., our

"inside" connection would shed some light on this.......is that possible

Bob? (Bob, if

you want to talk details, we can do it off - line.)

BTW, nice write-up in the latest COPA News, by the sound of it not only

are you

cultivating a good flock of Rebels but the other amphib fliers have found

a nice home

there too!

Thanks again,

Dave R.
Elite 583


Wayne G. O'Shea wrote:

Dave, I know it's hard for us engineering types, but you need to set

aside

your vernier and use it just to verify sheet thickness', when making

parts

from unmarked sheets. I think to quote Darryl is "we are not building a
Swiss watch, but we are not building a bridge either!"

As for the hinges, I always drill the top hole and then bolt the hinge
bracket in place. Then I use the hinge bracket as a guide to drill the
bottom hole to #12. It is not a necessity if you don't have a full # bit
set, but you will find a #12 leaves no "slop" for a bolt compared to a

#11

hole. I always use a #12 drill for bolts and a #11 for rivets.

Since you have not drilled your holes out yet, you have nothing to worry
about. Drill the top hole, bolt the bracket in place and, using the

bracket

as a guide, drill the bottom hole the .028 lower than that predrilled

#40

hole (that will be gone once you drill the #12 or #11 hole).

As for MAM "giving" me something for my time spent helping builders,

Colleen

is pretty good to me when I need stuff for refurbs and rebuilds (and

that

covers a <VERY> small portion of my time spent on this list server),
although what I would really like is a link from MAM's website to mine

to

sell finished/flying Rebels, but Darryl can't be bothered to respond to

my

requests or e-mails. Sometimes I wonder why I bother, but it is a GREAT
little aircraft and I just can't seem to turn my back on it!

Blue skies,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

----- Original Message -----
From: "David Ricker" <ricker@dbis.ns.ca>
To: " (Murphy Rebel Builders List)" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 04, 2000 1:35 PM
Subject: Aileron/Flap Hinge Mount Fit?

Hi Folks

We are in the process of building the first wing of our Elite and have

a

question about

the fit of the Aileron/Flap Hinge Mount (W125), I am pretty sure this

applies to all

Rebels and not just the Elite though.

Specifically the manual tells us to drill the hinge mounting points in

the

backing plates

out to #11, presumably to match the hinges. The problem comes in the

match up to the

hinges, the centre distance of the existing holes in the rear spar is

3.940" while the

mounting holes in hinge are 3.968 a difference of .028", which is the

correct spacing and

how have you resolved this? I see the options to be: a) file the spar

centres out to the

correct spacing of the hinges since the holes are still "40, or b)

bend

the hinges to

meet the spar. I am concerned at making the wrong adjustment and

having a

poor fit of

the flap/ailerons.

Any suggestions? Has anyone else had this problem and how did you

resolve

it? Wayne,

you have probably built more Rebel wings as anyone here, any

suggestions?

(Murphy should

give you something for the time you spend helping builders but perhaps

more about that

later...)

Thanks

Dave R.

--
David A. Ricker P. Eng.
DARTEC Engineering Inc.
Fall River, Nova Scotia
Canada

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Archives located at:
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--
David A. Ricker P. Eng.
DARTEC Engineering Inc.
Fall River, Nova Scotia
Canada

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[Bob Patterson]

Dave,

I would have suggested the same solution - but Wayne has done
a lot more of them than I have, and I figured he'd give you the
definitive answer.

Sorry - I knew <you'd> appreciate the qualities of the alloy,
but often I 'tailor' my comments to catch everybody, and not just
for this particular problem, but as a general approach ...

The steel gear legs are heat-treated before and after bending,
though, so again, I was aiming to cover a 'standard practices' kind of
approach.

The flap & aileron fit has a lot of leeway regarding the top
skin, as it can be trimmed quite a bit for clearance if needed. It
can also be bent upward - I seem to recall the old manual suggesting
using a long 2 X 4 with a sawed slot in it to bend the skin upward
if needed......


------------------------------orig.----------------------------------------
At 04:02 PM 11/5/00 -0400, you wrote:

Bob

The extrusions are made from an alloy which permits a certain amount of

ductility

otherwise they wouldn't extrude well. If they were cast rather than

extruded I would be

more concerned about them. The bending would also be much less than is

done to the

spring gear legs (made from bar stock) if you want to use that as a point

of reference.

Sorry about the Engineerese but I can't help that, we are just programmed

that way!

Actually, I was expecting the solution would be along the lines that Wayne

has suggested

but knowing whether to bias the position up or down was an important concern.

Thanks

Dave R



Bob Patterson wrote:

Hi Dave !

I don't know the best solution, but I sure <wouldn't> recommend
trying to bend those aileron hangers ! They're pretty heavy extrusions,
and I'd really be afraid of stress cracks developing ....

......bobp

-------------------------------orig.---------------------------------------
At 02:35 PM 11/4/00 -0400, you wrote:

Hi Folks

We are in the process of building the first wing of our Elite and have a

question about

the fit of the Aileron/Flap Hinge Mount (W125), I am pretty sure this

applies to all

Rebels and not just the Elite though.

Specifically the manual tells us to drill the hinge mounting points in the

backing plates

out to #11, presumably to match the hinges. The problem comes in the match

up to the

hinges, the centre distance of the existing holes in the rear spar is

3.940" while the

mounting holes in hinge are 3.968 a difference of .028", which is the

correct spacing and

how have you resolved this? I see the options to be: a) file the spar

centres out to the

correct spacing of the hinges since the holes are still "40, or b) bend the

hinges to

meet the spar. I am concerned at making the wrong adjustment and having a

poor fit of

the flap/ailerons.

Any suggestions? Has anyone else had this problem and how did you resolve

it? Wayne,

you have probably built more Rebel wings as anyone here, any suggestions?

(Murphy should

give you something for the time you spend helping builders but perhaps more

about that

later...)

Thanks

Dave R.

--
David A. Ricker P. Eng.
DARTEC Engineering Inc.
Fall River, Nova Scotia
Canada

*--------------------------------------------------------------------------

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between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
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*--------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------*

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*---------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------*

--
David A. Ricker P. Eng.
DARTEC Engineering Inc.
Fall River, Nova Scotia
Canada

*--------------------------------------------------------------------------

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[Bob Patterson]

Hi Dave !

One reason Tech. might be slow these days is that they're
short-handed ! I know Brian Godden (head of Tech.) was scheduled
to go over to the Philipines for a month (!) this fall, to supervise
training on the crews who will be building the QUick-Build Super
Rebels .... So, if he's away, they will be working pretty hard
to keep up, and perhaps missing the guiding hand ....

I'd be happy to help, though, if there's more of a problem -
just drop me a private email ...

I haven't seen My COPA yet - what was the article about, and
in which section ???

....bobp

-----------------------------------orig.-------------------------------------
At 04:01 PM 11/5/00 -0400, you wrote:

Hi Wayne

Yeah, it is hard to not approach this like an Engineer since we are

programmed to think

that way! That said, it does seem unusual that the spar and the hinge would be
fabricated on CNC (very precise) tooling and not come out with the same

spacing.....I am

sure these things would save Murphy some time on the tech support line.

Your answer though is exactly what I was looking for, a method that has

been proven to

work. I was concerned that if the hinge was biased one way or the other

there would be

interference problems etc. I was also doing the Engineer thing and being

cautious before

cutting metal! I'll try your suggestion for the #12 drill for the bolts

also. By the

way, do you also do this where a reamed hole is called for, since it would

be quicker?

Interesting your comment about Murphy responding to inquires, lately I have

been

disappointed in the quantity and quality of response I have received to

tech inquiries

via e-mail. I'll leave it at that but perhaps a gentle question or two

from Bob P., our

"inside" connection would shed some light on this.......is that possible

Bob? (Bob, if

you want to talk details, we can do it off - line.)

BTW, nice write-up in the latest COPA News, by the sound of it not only are you
cultivating a good flock of Rebels but the other amphib fliers have found

a nice home

there too!

Thanks again,

Dave R.
Elite 583


Wayne G. O'Shea wrote:

Dave, I know it's hard for us engineering types, but you need to set aside
your vernier and use it just to verify sheet thickness', when making parts
from unmarked sheets. I think to quote Darryl is "we are not building a
Swiss watch, but we are not building a bridge either!"

As for the hinges, I always drill the top hole and then bolt the hinge
bracket in place. Then I use the hinge bracket as a guide to drill the
bottom hole to #12. It is not a necessity if you don't have a full # bit
set, but you will find a #12 leaves no "slop" for a bolt compared to a #11
hole. I always use a #12 drill for bolts and a #11 for rivets.

Since you have not drilled your holes out yet, you have nothing to worry
about. Drill the top hole, bolt the bracket in place and, using the bracket
as a guide, drill the bottom hole the .028 lower than that predrilled #40
hole (that will be gone once you drill the #12 or #11 hole).

As for MAM "giving" me something for my time spent helping builders, Colleen
is pretty good to me when I need stuff for refurbs and rebuilds (and that
covers a <VERY> small portion of my time spent on this list server),
although what I would really like is a link from MAM's website to mine to
sell finished/flying Rebels, but Darryl can't be bothered to respond to my
requests or e-mails. Sometimes I wonder why I bother, but it is a GREAT
little aircraft and I just can't seem to turn my back on it!

Blue skies,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

----- Original Message -----
From: "David Ricker" <ricker@dbis.ns.ca>
To: " (Murphy Rebel Builders List)" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 04, 2000 1:35 PM
Subject: Aileron/Flap Hinge Mount Fit?

Hi Folks

We are in the process of building the first wing of our Elite and have a

question about

the fit of the Aileron/Flap Hinge Mount (W125), I am pretty sure this

applies to all

Rebels and not just the Elite though.

Specifically the manual tells us to drill the hinge mounting points in the

backing plates

out to #11, presumably to match the hinges. The problem comes in the

match up to the

hinges, the centre distance of the existing holes in the rear spar is

3.940" while the

mounting holes in hinge are 3.968 a difference of .028", which is the

correct spacing and

how have you resolved this? I see the options to be: a) file the spar

centres out to the

correct spacing of the hinges since the holes are still "40, or b) bend

the hinges to

meet the spar. I am concerned at making the wrong adjustment and having a

poor fit of

the flap/ailerons.

Any suggestions? Has anyone else had this problem and how did you resolve

it? Wayne,

you have probably built more Rebel wings as anyone here, any suggestions?

(Murphy should

give you something for the time you spend helping builders but perhaps

more about that

later...)

Thanks

Dave R.

--
David A. Ricker P. Eng.
DARTEC Engineering Inc.
Fall River, Nova Scotia
Canada

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DARTEC Engineering Inc.
Fall River, Nova Scotia
Canada

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[Dave Klimas]

Wayne,

Did I miss something in this thread or even worse my wing?

Are there hinge mount bolts inside the tank area?

Dave Klimas
Ramona, CA

Dave,

Even after you do the drill/bolt the top and use the bottom as a guide
thing, you can still run into skin interference from kit to kit. Some do and
some don't, due to minor pre-punch variances to the trailing edge etc. I
wish I hadn't waited, about 8 wings, to realize that the thing to do was to
install one lug anchor nuts on the inside of the rear spar, so the hinge
brackets can be removed and shimmed as required (instead of bolted in place
and the wing closed up). They are especially helpfull for the ones inside
the tanks where you definitely wouldn't want to cut a hole to access the
nuts.

Even minor "tweaking" of the trailing edge really messes up the looks of a
wing, because as soon as you touch one spot it will "wow" somewhere else. I
know, because I have been <STUPID> enough to try it!

Blue skies,
Wayne G.O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

----snip----
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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your following message has been delivered to the 161 members of
the list murphy-rebel@dcsol.com at 21:56:37 on 6 Nov 2000.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


Dave,

Even after you do the drill/bolt the top and use the bottom as a guide
thing, you can still run into skin interference from kit to kit. Some do and
some don't, due to minor pre-punch variances to the trailing edge etc. I
wish I hadn't waited, about 8 wings, to realize that the thing to do was to
install one lug anchor nuts on the inside of the rear spar, so the hinge
brackets can be removed and shimmed as required (instead of bolted in place
and the wing closed up). They are especially helpfull for the ones inside
the tanks where you definitely wouldn't want to cut a hole to access the
nuts.

Even minor "tweaking" of the trailing edge really messes up the looks of a
wing, because as soon as you touch one spot it will "wow" somewhere else. I
know, because I have been <STUPID> enough to try it!

Blue skies,
Wayne G.O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

----- Original Message -----
From: "David Ricker" <ricker@dbis.ns.ca>
To: " (Murphy Rebel Builders List)" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, November 06, 2000 9:08 PM
Subject: Re: Aileron/Flap Hinge Mount Fit?

Bob

Fair to err on the side of caution, particularly when you don't know the

background of

the party you are giving advice to. I suspected someone, particularly

Wayne would have

been down that road before and come up with the right work around. For

sure I didn't

want to get into the "bend the trailing edge" routine if I could help it,

that sounded a

bit too much outside the envelope for my taste!

BTW, the gear legs I was talking about were the aluminum parts on the

Elite rather than

the SR.

Dave R

Bob Patterson wrote:

Dave,

I would have suggested the same solution - but Wayne has done
a lot more of them than I have, and I figured he'd give you the
definitive answer.

Sorry - I knew <you'd> appreciate the qualities of the alloy,
but often I 'tailor' my comments to catch everybody, and not just
for this particular problem, but as a general approach ...

The steel gear legs are heat-treated before and after bending,
though, so again, I was aiming to cover a 'standard practices' kind of
approach.

The flap & aileron fit has a lot of leeway regarding the top
skin, as it can be trimmed quite a bit for clearance if needed. It
can also be bent upward - I seem to recall the old manual suggesting
using a long 2 X 4 with a sawed slot in it to bend the skin upward
if needed......

------------------------------orig.---------------------------------------

-

At 04:02 PM 11/5/00 -0400, you wrote:

Bob

The extrusions are made from an alloy which permits a certain amount of

ductility

otherwise they wouldn't extrude well. If they were cast rather than

extruded I would be

more concerned about them. The bending would also be much less than is

done to the

spring gear legs (made from bar stock) if you want to use that as a

point

of reference.

Sorry about the Engineerese but I can't help that, we are just

programmed

that way!

Actually, I was expecting the solution would be along the lines that

Wayne

has suggested

but knowing whether to bias the position up or down was an important

concern.

Thanks

Dave R



Bob Patterson wrote:

recommend

extrusions,

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------------------

--

have a

this

in the

the match

is

the

spar

bend the

having a

resolve

suggestions?

perhaps more

*--------------------------------------------------------------------------

*--------------------------------------------------------------------------

*---------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------*

*---------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------*

--
David A. Ricker P. Eng.
DARTEC Engineering Inc.
Fall River, Nova Scotia
Canada

*--------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Archives located at:
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between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
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*---------------------------------------------------------------------------
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--
David A. Ricker P. Eng.
DARTEC Engineering Inc.
3 Tamarac Drive
Fall River, Nova Scotia
Canada, B2T 1E8
ricker@dbis.ns.ca
Ph. 902-860-0256

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[David Ricker]

Bob

Fair to err on the side of caution, particularly when you don't know the background of
the party you are giving advice to. I suspected someone, particularly Wayne would have
been down that road before and come up with the right work around. For sure I didn't
want to get into the "bend the trailing edge" routine if I could help it, that sounded a
bit too much outside the envelope for my taste!

BTW, the gear legs I was talking about were the aluminum parts on the Elite rather than
the SR.

Dave R

Bob Patterson wrote:

Dave,

I would have suggested the same solution - but Wayne has done
a lot more of them than I have, and I figured he'd give you the
definitive answer.

Sorry - I knew <you'd> appreciate the qualities of the alloy,
but often I 'tailor' my comments to catch everybody, and not just
for this particular problem, but as a general approach ...

The steel gear legs are heat-treated before and after bending,
though, so again, I was aiming to cover a 'standard practices' kind of
approach.

The flap & aileron fit has a lot of leeway regarding the top
skin, as it can be trimmed quite a bit for clearance if needed. It
can also be bent upward - I seem to recall the old manual suggesting
using a long 2 X 4 with a sawed slot in it to bend the skin upward
if needed......

------------------------------orig.----------------------------------------
At 04:02 PM 11/5/00 -0400, you wrote:

Bob

The extrusions are made from an alloy which permits a certain amount of

ductility

otherwise they wouldn't extrude well. If they were cast rather than

extruded I would be

more concerned about them. The bending would also be much less than is

done to the

spring gear legs (made from bar stock) if you want to use that as a point

of reference.

Sorry about the Engineerese but I can't help that, we are just programmed

that way!

Actually, I was expecting the solution would be along the lines that Wayne

has suggested

but knowing whether to bias the position up or down was an important concern.

Thanks

Dave R



Bob Patterson wrote:

Hi Dave !

I don't know the best solution, but I sure <wouldn't> recommend
trying to bend those aileron hangers ! They're pretty heavy extrusions,
and I'd really be afraid of stress cracks developing ....

......bobp

-------------------------------orig.---------------------------------------
At 02:35 PM 11/4/00 -0400, you wrote: question about applies to all backing plates up to the 3.940" while the correct spacing and centres out to the hinges to poor fit of it? Wayne, (Murphy should about that ---------* ---------*

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David A. Ricker P. Eng.
DARTEC Engineering Inc.
Fall River, Nova Scotia
Canada

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*-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------*

--
David A. Ricker P. Eng.
DARTEC Engineering Inc.
3 Tamarac Drive
Fall River, Nova Scotia
Canada, B2T 1E8
ricker@dbis.ns.ca
Ph. 902-860-0256


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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your following message has been delivered to the 162 members of
the list murphy-rebel@dcsol.com at 08:07:28 on 7 Nov 2000.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


SORRY DAVE, ONLY ON THE SR2500!

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Klimas" <rebel472@home.com>
To: "Murphy Rebel Builders List" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2000 12:11 AM
Subject: Re: Aileron/Flap Hinge Mount Fit?

Wayne,

Did I miss something in this thread or even worse my wing?

Are there hinge mount bolts inside the tank area?

Dave Klimas
Ramona, CA

Dave,

Even after you do the drill/bolt the top and use the bottom as a guide
thing, you can still run into skin interference from kit to kit. Some do

and

some don't, due to minor pre-punch variances to the trailing edge etc. I
wish I hadn't waited, about 8 wings, to realize that the thing to do was

to

install one lug anchor nuts on the inside of the rear spar, so the hinge
brackets can be removed and shimmed as required (instead of bolted in

place

and the wing closed up). They are especially helpfull for the ones inside
the tanks where you definitely wouldn't want to cut a hole to access the
nuts.

Even minor "tweaking" of the trailing edge really messes up the looks of

a

wing, because as soon as you touch one spot it will "wow" somewhere else.

I

know, because I have been <STUPID> enough to try it!

Blue skies,
Wayne G.O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

----snip----

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[Bob Patterson]

Hi Dave !

Bending the trailing edge of the top skin is a pretty common
thing - most Rebels have had some amount of it required. It's not
a big deal - the extended top skin is just a fairing, so think of
it as fitting a fairing, like the wing root fairings....

Re-quoting Darry "It's not a Swiss watch !" :-) :-)

.....bobp

---------------------------------orig.----------------------------------
At 10:08 PM 11/6/00 -0400, you wrote:

Bob

Fair to err on the side of caution, particularly when you don't know the

background of

the party you are giving advice to. I suspected someone, particularly Wayne

would have

been down that road before and come up with the right work around. For

sure I didn't

want to get into the "bend the trailing edge" routine if I could help it,

that sounded a

bit too much outside the envelope for my taste!

BTW, the gear legs I was talking about were the aluminum parts on the Elite

rather than

the SR.

Dave R

Bob Patterson wrote:

Dave,

I would have suggested the same solution - but Wayne has done
a lot more of them than I have, and I figured he'd give you the
definitive answer.

Sorry - I knew <you'd> appreciate the qualities of the alloy,
but often I 'tailor' my comments to catch everybody, and not just
for this particular problem, but as a general approach ...

The steel gear legs are heat-treated before and after bending,
though, so again, I was aiming to cover a 'standard practices' kind of
approach.

The flap & aileron fit has a lot of leeway regarding the top
skin, as it can be trimmed quite a bit for clearance if needed. It
can also be bent upward - I seem to recall the old manual suggesting
using a long 2 X 4 with a sawed slot in it to bend the skin upward
if needed......

------------------------------orig.----------------------------------------
At 04:02 PM 11/5/00 -0400, you wrote:

Bob

The extrusions are made from an alloy which permits a certain amount of

ductility

otherwise they wouldn't extrude well. If they were cast rather than

extruded I would be

more concerned about them. The bending would also be much less than is

done to the

spring gear legs (made from bar stock) if you want to use that as a point

of reference.

Sorry about the Engineerese but I can't help that, we are just programmed

that way!

Actually, I was expecting the solution would be along the lines that Wayne

has suggested

but knowing whether to bias the position up or down was an important

concern.

Thanks

Dave R



Bob Patterson wrote:

-------------------------------orig.---------------------------------------

in the

match

bend the

having a

resolve

perhaps more

*--------------------------------------------------------------------------

*--------------------------------------------------------------------------

*---------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------*

*---------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------*

--
David A. Ricker P. Eng.
DARTEC Engineering Inc.
Fall River, Nova Scotia
Canada

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Archives located at:
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*--------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------*

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Archives located at:
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*---------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------*

--
David A. Ricker P. Eng.
DARTEC Engineering Inc.
3 Tamarac Drive
Fall River, Nova Scotia
Canada, B2T 1E8
ricker@dbis.ns.ca
Ph. 902-860-0256


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[AGT]

One method of accomplishing a uniform bend that was suggested to me is to
rivet a long piece of angle aluminum to a long aluminum tube. Stick the
trailing edge of the wing skin in where the angle aluminum meets the tube
and roll the skin to the desired amount of bend. Get at least one other
person to help and you could do a long section. Maybe even the whole thing.
I'd use a good size tube, say 2 inch diameter or so. I'm concerned about
this because you won't believe what I did. I accidentally installed regular
rivets where flush rivets should be on the leading edge of the flaps.
Anybody know how to blind-side dimple? If so, I'd drill out the regular
rivets and put flush rivets there like it's supposed to be. Flush rivets
without dimpling might be worse. The sharp edge sticking up might want to
catch more than the curved edge of the regular rivet, even though the flush
rivet would sit lower.

Mike Kimball
SR2500

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Patterson [mailto:bob.patterson@canrem.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2000 8:45 PM
To: Murphy Rebel Builders List
Subject: Re: Aileron/Flap Hinge Mount Fit?



Hi Dave !

Bending the trailing edge of the top skin is a pretty common
thing - most Rebels have had some amount of it required. It's not
a big deal - the extended top skin is just a fairing, so think of
it as fitting a fairing, like the wing root fairings....

Re-quoting Darry "It's not a Swiss watch !" :-) :-)

.....bobp

---------------------------------orig.----------------------------------
At 10:08 PM 11/6/00 -0400, you wrote:

Bob

Fair to err on the side of caution, particularly when you don't know the

background of

the party you are giving advice to. I suspected someone, particularly Wayne

would have

been down that road before and come up with the right work around. For

sure I didn't

want to get into the "bend the trailing edge" routine if I could help it,

that sounded a

bit too much outside the envelope for my taste!

BTW, the gear legs I was talking about were the aluminum parts on the Elite

rather than

the SR.

Dave R

Bob Patterson wrote:

Dave,

I would have suggested the same solution - but Wayne has done
a lot more of them than I have, and I figured he'd give you the
definitive answer.

Sorry - I knew <you'd> appreciate the qualities of the alloy,
but often I 'tailor' my comments to catch everybody, and not just
for this particular problem, but as a general approach ...

The steel gear legs are heat-treated before and after bending,
though, so again, I was aiming to cover a 'standard practices' kind of
approach.

The flap & aileron fit has a lot of leeway regarding the top
skin, as it can be trimmed quite a bit for clearance if needed. It
can also be bent upward - I seem to recall the old manual suggesting
using a long 2 X 4 with a sawed slot in it to bend the skin upward
if needed......

------------------------------orig.--------------------------------------

--

At 04:02 PM 11/5/00 -0400, you wrote:

Bob

The extrusions are made from an alloy which permits a certain amount of

ductility

otherwise they wouldn't extrude well. If they were cast rather than

extruded I would be

more concerned about them. The bending would also be much less than is

done to the

spring gear legs (made from bar stock) if you want to use that as a

point

of reference.

Sorry about the Engineerese but I can't help that, we are just

programmed

that way!

Actually, I was expecting the solution would be along the lines that

Wayne

has suggested

but knowing whether to bias the position up or down was an important

concern.

Thanks

Dave R



Bob Patterson wrote:

recommend

extrusions,

-------------------------------orig.---------------------------------------

have a

in the

match

spar

bend the

having a

resolve

suggestions?

perhaps more

*--------------------------------------------------------------------------

*--------------------------------------------------------------------------

*---------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------*

*---------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------*

--
David A. Ricker P. Eng.
DARTEC Engineering Inc.
Fall River, Nova Scotia
Canada

*--------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------*

The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/lists/default.htm

*--------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------*

*---------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------*

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David A. Ricker P. Eng.
DARTEC Engineering Inc.
3 Tamarac Drive
Fall River, Nova Scotia
Canada, B2T 1E8
ricker@dbis.ns.ca
Ph. 902-860-0256


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The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
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[David Ricker]

Wayne

Yes, I remembered hearing about the shim hinge/bend trailing edge thing, that was the
start of my wanting to ask what others had done on the hinge positioning. I sure didn't
want to start bending the skin, it just sounded like asking for trouble. Once you start
warping sheet metal you can get into all sorts of fun!

Good idea on the hinge anchor nuts, I can just picture re-shimming the hinges a few years
down the road or trying to replace a worn pivot.

Dave R.

Wayne G. O'Shea wrote:

Dave,

Even after you do the drill/bolt the top and use the bottom as a guide
thing, you can still run into skin interference from kit to kit. Some do and
some don't, due to minor pre-punch variances to the trailing edge etc. I
wish I hadn't waited, about 8 wings, to realize that the thing to do was to
install one lug anchor nuts on the inside of the rear spar, so the hinge
brackets can be removed and shimmed as required (instead of bolted in place
and the wing closed up). They are especially helpfull for the ones inside
the tanks where you definitely wouldn't want to cut a hole to access the
nuts.

Even minor "tweaking" of the trailing edge really messes up the looks of a
wing, because as soon as you touch one spot it will "wow" somewhere else. I
know, because I have been <STUPID> enough to try it!

Blue skies,
Wayne G.O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

----- Original Message -----
From: "David Ricker" <ricker@dbis.ns.ca>
To: " (Murphy Rebel Builders List)" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, November 06, 2000 9:08 PM
Subject: Re: Aileron/Flap Hinge Mount Fit?

Bob

Fair to err on the side of caution, particularly when you don't know the

background of

the party you are giving advice to. I suspected someone, particularly

Wayne would have

been down that road before and come up with the right work around. For

sure I didn't

want to get into the "bend the trailing edge" routine if I could help it,

that sounded a

bit too much outside the envelope for my taste!

BTW, the gear legs I was talking about were the aluminum parts on the

Elite rather than

the SR.

Dave R

Bob Patterson wrote:

Dave,

I would have suggested the same solution - but Wayne has done
a lot more of them than I have, and I figured he'd give you the
definitive answer.

Sorry - I knew <you'd> appreciate the qualities of the alloy,
but often I 'tailor' my comments to catch everybody, and not just
for this particular problem, but as a general approach ...

The steel gear legs are heat-treated before and after bending,
though, so again, I was aiming to cover a 'standard practices' kind of
approach.

The flap & aileron fit has a lot of leeway regarding the top
skin, as it can be trimmed quite a bit for clearance if needed. It
can also be bent upward - I seem to recall the old manual suggesting
using a long 2 X 4 with a sawed slot in it to bend the skin upward
if needed......

------------------------------orig.---------------------------------------

-

At 04:02 PM 11/5/00 -0400, you wrote: ductility extruded I would be done to the

point

of reference.

programmed

that way!

Wayne

has suggested

concern.

recommend

extrusions,

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------------------

--

have a

this

in the

the match

is

the

spar

bend the

having a

resolve

suggestions?

perhaps more

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The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
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*---------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------*

--
David A. Ricker P. Eng.
DARTEC Engineering Inc.
3 Tamarac Drive
Fall River, Nova Scotia
Canada, B2T 1E8
ricker@dbis.ns.ca
Ph. 902-860-0256

*---------------------------------------------------------------------------
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The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/lists/default.htm

*---------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------*

*-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------*
The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/lists/default.htm
*-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------*

--
David A. Ricker P. Eng.
DARTEC Engineering Inc.
3 Tamarac Drive
Fall River, Nova Scotia
Canada, B2T 1E8
ricker@dbis.ns.ca
Ph. 902-860-0256


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The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
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*-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------*




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