[rebel-builders] Elite VG's

[Mike Betti]

I used the Murphy kit from http://www.pnwaero.com/
A template is included. I had to fudge a few due to rivets in the way. Also
the ones on the tail had to be repositioned in several places due to control
hardware and rivets in the way. The same kit is used for both Rebel and
Elite, I'm guessing the template works with the Rebel better. Regardless
they do work. I had to prepaint them and then they are glued on with a
special 2 part Loctite glue which is also supplied. Very good kit!
Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Ralph
Baker
Sent: Friday, February 13, 2009 8:54 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] Elite

Mike,
Where did you get your Elite vortex generators and did they come with an
installation template and / or dimensions for placement?
Thanks,
Ralph Baker



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[Walter Klatt]

Dennis here at Langley, also went with the pnwaero ones on his Elite. He had
them on his plane from day one, just based on my results on my Rebel.

I have the landshorter ones, but the template and positioning is the same as
the pnw ones. I also gained about 8 or 9 mph in lower stall speed, as best
as I could measure it, so the results are probably very similar.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Mike
Betti
Sent: February 14, 2009 5:59 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Elite VG's

I used the Murphy kit from http://www.pnwaero.com/
A template is included. I had to fudge a few due to rivets in the way. Also
the ones on the tail had to be repositioned in several places due to control
hardware and rivets in the way. The same kit is used for both Rebel and
Elite, I'm guessing the template works with the Rebel better. Regardless
they do work. I had to prepaint them and then they are glued on with a
special 2 part Loctite glue which is also supplied. Very good kit!
Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Ralph
Baker
Sent: Friday, February 13, 2009 8:54 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] Elite

Mike,
Where did you get your Elite vortex generators and did they come with an
installation template and / or dimensions for placement?
Thanks,
Ralph Baker



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[NormIsler]

Can you give us a rough idea of the kit price for the VGs?

Thanks!

Norm
**************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy
steps!
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[Walter Klatt]

http://www.pnwaero.com/murphy.htm

http://www.landshorter.com/page11.html

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
NormIsler@aol.com
Sent: February 14, 2009 7:01 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Elite VG's

Can you give us a rough idea of the kit price for the VGs?

Thanks!

Norm
**************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy
steps!
(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575 ... ?redir=htt
p://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.asp ... 2%26bcd=fe
bemailfooterNO62)




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[Drew Dalgleish]

Hey Walter Did the VG's make any difference when flaring to land? My
elevators run out almost as soon as the mains touch down and the nosewheels
arrive, shall we say firmly. :) Wayne's suggestion of a few gallons of
water in the rear compartments helps a lot but I still sometimes feel like
I'm just along for the ride and not in total control.

At 06:52 AM 14/02/2009 -0800, you wrote:

Dennis here at Langley, also went with the pnwaero ones on his Elite. He had
them on his plane from day one, just based on my results on my Rebel.

I have the landshorter ones, but the template and positioning is the same as
the pnw ones. I also gained about 8 or 9 mph in lower stall speed, as best
as I could measure it, so the results are probably very similar.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Mike
Betti
Sent: February 14, 2009 5:59 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Elite VG's

I used the Murphy kit from http://www.pnwaero.com/
A template is included. I had to fudge a few due to rivets in the way. Also
the ones on the tail had to be repositioned in several places due to control
hardware and rivets in the way. The same kit is used for both Rebel and
Elite, I'm guessing the template works with the Rebel better. Regardless
they do work. I had to prepaint them and then they are glued on with a
special 2 part Loctite glue which is also supplied. Very good kit!
Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Ralph
Baker
Sent: Friday, February 13, 2009 8:54 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] Elite

Mike,
Where did you get your Elite vortex generators and did they come with an
installation template and / or dimensions for placement?
Thanks,
Ralph Baker



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Drew



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[Keith Leitch]

HUGE price difference between the two different kits. Are they that much different to justify the cost defferential?
Keith

--- On Sat, 2/14/09, Walter Klatt <Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca> wrote:

From: Walter Klatt <Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca>
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Elite VG's
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Date: Saturday, February 14, 2009, 8:52 AM

Dennis here at Langley, also went with the pnwaero ones on his Elite. He had
them on his plane from day one, just based on my results on my Rebel.

I have the landshorter ones, but the template and positioning is the same as
the pnw ones. I also gained about 8 or 9 mph in lower stall speed, as best
as I could measure it, so the results are probably very similar.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Mike
Betti
Sent: February 14, 2009 5:59 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Elite VG's

I used the Murphy kit from http://www.pnwaero.com/
A template is included. I had to fudge a few due to rivets in the way. Also
the ones on the tail had to be repositioned in several places due to control
hardware and rivets in the way. The same kit is used for both Rebel and
Elite, I'm guessing the template works with the Rebel better. Regardless
they do work. I had to prepaint them and then they are glued on with a
special 2 part Loctite glue which is also supplied. Very good kit!
Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Ralph
Baker
Sent: Friday, February 13, 2009 8:54 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] Elite

Mike,
Where did you get your Elite vortex generators and did they come with an
installation template and / or dimensions for placement?
Thanks,
Ralph Baker



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[Drew Dalgleish]

$279+$10 s+h


At 10:00 AM 14/02/2009 EST, you wrote:

Can you give us a rough idea of the kit price for the VGs?

Thanks!

Norm
**************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy
steps!
(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575 ... l?redir=ht

tp://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.asp ... 2%26bcd=fe

bemailfooterNO62)




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Drew



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[Walter Klatt]

I never did try the VGs on the tail, just have them on the wings, so don't
know if that would help or not. But, no, I did not notice any difference in
the flare on landing with the floats.

This is something that I noticed when flying Dennis's Elite though. Even
though he doesn't have the VGs on the tail either, his seemed to have more
control on holding the nose up on landing. I think it is just because of the
larger tail on the Elite. Or it might be because his c of g is more
rearward.

So it might be worth a try for someone on a float Rebel.

Having said that, I don't really have a problem with my Rebel that way. I
just avoid landing on wheels at too high of an angle of attack. I sort of
fly it on with the nose only slightly raised, and then the front wheels
don't have as far to drop. I then gradually pull back the stick as it slows,
so the nose doesn't go up after touchdown (which it will with too much back
stick). That keeps the nose wheels up for a little while after the mains
touch, and then they come down more gently (usually).

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Drew
Dalgleish
Sent: February 14, 2009 7:23 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Elite VG's

Hey Walter Did the VG's make any difference when flaring to land? My
elevators run out almost as soon as the mains touch down and the nosewheels
arrive, shall we say firmly. :) Wayne's suggestion of a few gallons of
water in the rear compartments helps a lot but I still sometimes feel like
I'm just along for the ride and not in total control.

At 06:52 AM 14/02/2009 -0800, you wrote:

Dennis here at Langley, also went with the pnwaero ones on his Elite. He

had

them on his plane from day one, just based on my results on my Rebel.

I have the landshorter ones, but the template and positioning is the same

as

the pnw ones. I also gained about 8 or 9 mph in lower stall speed, as best
as I could measure it, so the results are probably very similar.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Mike
Betti
Sent: February 14, 2009 5:59 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Elite VG's

I used the Murphy kit from http://www.pnwaero.com/
A template is included. I had to fudge a few due to rivets in the way. Also
the ones on the tail had to be repositioned in several places due to

control

hardware and rivets in the way. The same kit is used for both Rebel and
Elite, I'm guessing the template works with the Rebel better. Regardless
they do work. I had to prepaint them and then they are glued on with a
special 2 part Loctite glue which is also supplied. Very good kit!
Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Ralph
Baker
Sent: Friday, February 13, 2009 8:54 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] Elite

Mike,
Where did you get your Elite vortex generators and did they come with an
installation template and / or dimensions for placement?
Thanks,
Ralph Baker



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Drew



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[Walter Klatt]

I think the pnw ones include the loctite. With the landshorter ones, you
have to get your own loctite and double sided carpet tape. I can't remember
the exact cost, somewhere around 20 or 30 dollars for the loctite.

That's the only difference that I know. Performance results seem to be the
same.

Another thing that I like about the landshorter ones, though, is that they
are slightly shaped, and concave, so they fit the airfoil contour on the
leading edge very well. They are also clear, so don't have to be painted.
They are not sharp either, so less chance of getting cut, etc.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Keith
Leitch
Sent: February 14, 2009 7:18 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Elite VG's

HUGE price difference between the two different kits. Are they that much
different to justify the cost defferential?
Keith

--- On Sat, 2/14/09, Walter Klatt <Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca> wrote:

From: Walter Klatt <Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca>
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Elite VG's
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Date: Saturday, February 14, 2009, 8:52 AM

Dennis here at Langley, also went with the pnwaero ones on his Elite. He had
them on his plane from day one, just based on my results on my Rebel.

I have the landshorter ones, but the template and positioning is the same as
the pnw ones. I also gained about 8 or 9 mph in lower stall speed, as best
as I could measure it, so the results are probably very similar.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Mike
Betti
Sent: February 14, 2009 5:59 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Elite VG's

I used the Murphy kit from http://www.pnwaero.com/
A template is included. I had to fudge a few due to rivets in the way. Also
the ones on the tail had to be repositioned in several places due to control
hardware and rivets in the way. The same kit is used for both Rebel and
Elite, I'm guessing the template works with the Rebel better. Regardless
they do work. I had to prepaint them and then they are glued on with a
special 2 part Loctite glue which is also supplied. Very good kit!
Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Ralph
Baker
Sent: Friday, February 13, 2009 8:54 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] Elite

Mike,
Where did you get your Elite vortex generators and did they come with an
installation template and / or dimensions for placement?
Thanks,
Ralph Baker



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[Keith Leitch]

Thanks Walter

--- On Sat, 2/14/09, Walter Klatt <Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca> wrote:

From: Walter Klatt <Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca>
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Elite VG's
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Date: Saturday, February 14, 2009, 9:46 AM

I think the pnw ones include the loctite. With the landshorter ones, you
have to get your own loctite and double sided carpet tape. I can't remember
the exact cost, somewhere around 20 or 30 dollars for the loctite.

That's the only difference that I know. Performance results seem to be the
same.

Another thing that I like about the landshorter ones, though, is that they
are slightly shaped, and concave, so they fit the airfoil contour on the
leading edge very well. They are also clear, so don't have to be painted.
They are not sharp either, so less chance of getting cut, etc.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Keith
Leitch
Sent: February 14, 2009 7:18 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Elite VG's

HUGE price difference between the two different kits. Are they that much
different to justify the cost defferential?
Keith

--- On Sat, 2/14/09, Walter Klatt <Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca> wrote:

From: Walter Klatt <Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca>
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Elite VG's
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Date: Saturday, February 14, 2009, 8:52 AM

Dennis here at Langley, also went with the pnwaero ones on his Elite. He had
them on his plane from day one, just based on my results on my Rebel.

I have the landshorter ones, but the template and positioning is the same as
the pnw ones. I also gained about 8 or 9 mph in lower stall speed, as best
as I could measure it, so the results are probably very similar.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Mike
Betti
Sent: February 14, 2009 5:59 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Elite VG's

I used the Murphy kit from http://www.pnwaero.com/
A template is included. I had to fudge a few due to rivets in the way. Also
the ones on the tail had to be repositioned in several places due to control
hardware and rivets in the way. The same kit is used for both Rebel and
Elite, I'm guessing the template works with the Rebel better. Regardless
they do work. I had to prepaint them and then they are glued on with a
special 2 part Loctite glue which is also supplied. Very good kit!
Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Ralph
Baker
Sent: Friday, February 13, 2009 8:54 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] Elite

Mike,
Where did you get your Elite vortex generators and did they come with an
installation template and / or dimensions for placement?
Thanks,
Ralph Baker



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[Ken]

Vg's delay the stall.
If the surface is not approaching the stall then I don't believe they
can help which seems to be the case with with vg's on my elevator. So
that tells me that more up deflection will help. At some point the Vg's
would start helping but I'd guess not before at least 30* of deflection
based on what I've experienced.

Ken

Drew Dalgleish wrote:

Hey Walter Did the VG's make any difference when flaring to land? My
elevators run out almost as soon as the mains touch down and the nosewheels
arrive, shall we say firmly. :) Wayne's suggestion of a few gallons of
water in the rear compartments helps a lot but I still sometimes feel like
I'm just along for the ride and not in total control.

At 06:52 AM 14/02/2009 -0800, you wrote:

Dennis here at Langley, also went with the pnwaero ones on his Elite. He had
them on his plane from day one, just based on my results on my Rebel.

I have the landshorter ones, but the template and positioning is the same as
the pnw ones. I also gained about 8 or 9 mph in lower stall speed, as best
as I could measure it, so the results are probably very similar.

Walter

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[Drew Dalgleish]

Thanks Walter I'll try experimenting with faster landing speeds when I get
my floats back on.

At 07:41 AM 14/02/2009 -0800, you wrote:

I never did try the VGs on the tail, just have them on the wings, so don't
know if that would help or not. But, no, I did not notice any difference in
the flare on landing with the floats.

This is something that I noticed when flying Dennis's Elite though. Even
though he doesn't have the VGs on the tail either, his seemed to have more
control on holding the nose up on landing. I think it is just because of the
larger tail on the Elite. Or it might be because his c of g is more
rearward.

So it might be worth a try for someone on a float Rebel.

Having said that, I don't really have a problem with my Rebel that way. I
just avoid landing on wheels at too high of an angle of attack. I sort of
fly it on with the nose only slightly raised, and then the front wheels
don't have as far to drop. I then gradually pull back the stick as it slows,
so the nose doesn't go up after touchdown (which it will with too much back
stick). That keeps the nose wheels up for a little while after the mains
touch, and then they come down more gently (usually).

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Drew
Dalgleish
Sent: February 14, 2009 7:23 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Elite VG's

Hey Walter Did the VG's make any difference when flaring to land? My
elevators run out almost as soon as the mains touch down and the nosewheels
arrive, shall we say firmly. :) Wayne's suggestion of a few gallons of
water in the rear compartments helps a lot but I still sometimes feel like
I'm just along for the ride and not in total control.

At 06:52 AM 14/02/2009 -0800, you wrote:

Dennis here at Langley, also went with the pnwaero ones on his Elite. He

had

them on his plane from day one, just based on my results on my Rebel.

I have the landshorter ones, but the template and positioning is the same

as

the pnw ones. I also gained about 8 or 9 mph in lower stall speed, as best
as I could measure it, so the results are probably very similar.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Mike
Betti
Sent: February 14, 2009 5:59 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Elite VG's

I used the Murphy kit from http://www.pnwaero.com/
A template is included. I had to fudge a few due to rivets in the way. Also
the ones on the tail had to be repositioned in several places due to

control

hardware and rivets in the way. The same kit is used for both Rebel and
Elite, I'm guessing the template works with the Rebel better. Regardless
they do work. I had to prepaint them and then they are glued on with a
special 2 part Loctite glue which is also supplied. Very good kit!
Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Ralph
Baker
Sent: Friday, February 13, 2009 8:54 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] Elite

Mike,
Where did you get your Elite vortex generators and did they come with an
installation template and / or dimensions for placement?
Thanks,
Ralph Baker



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[Drew Dalgleish]

Thanks Ken I was thinking that as the plane slows the elevators become less
effective and that VG's might help. I know that if I keep my power up a bit
from idle the extra air from the propwash keeps the tail effective for
longer into the landing roll.

At 12:53 PM 14/02/2009 -0500, you wrote:

Vg's delay the stall.
If the surface is not approaching the stall then I don't believe they
can help which seems to be the case with with vg's on my elevator. So
that tells me that more up deflection will help. At some point the Vg's
would start helping but I'd guess not before at least 30* of deflection
based on what I've experienced.

Ken

Drew Dalgleish wrote:

Hey Walter Did the VG's make any difference when flaring to land? My
elevators run out almost as soon as the mains touch down and the nosewheels
arrive, shall we say firmly. :) Wayne's suggestion of a few gallons of
water in the rear compartments helps a lot but I still sometimes feel like
I'm just along for the ride and not in total control.

At 06:52 AM 14/02/2009 -0800, you wrote:

Dennis here at Langley, also went with the pnwaero ones on his Elite.

He had

them on his plane from day one, just based on my results on my Rebel.

I have the landshorter ones, but the template and positioning is the

same as

the pnw ones. I also gained about 8 or 9 mph in lower stall speed, as best
as I could measure it, so the results are probably very similar.

Walter

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Drew



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