[rebel-builders] Elite Heat

[WALTER KLATT]

John, when you mention directing air through a scat hose to your filter, do you mean cooler? Even 3 inches is too small if it is your cooler. Most people that I know using a remote cooler have had to go to 4 inches.

I have my cooler on the rear baffle, as does Dennis with the 360, and no problems cooling in the hottest days (+30 C) and during long climbs. Anything less than 20 C OAT, and I have to partially block mine to get it up to 180 F.

CHT's have always been my challenge. With the new engine, I can keep them to below 435 on a hot day long climb, and below 400 in cruise. As it is getting broken in, I think it is running even cooler now too. One thing I noticed, is that if I put it in flaperon reflex, my CHT's cool down about 20 degrees. What is weird about this engine is that the front CHT's are running hotter than my rear ones. With the 320, the rear ones were the hottest, mostly #3. Anybody else experience this?

What are your CHT's running at?

My bottom cowl outlet is much larger, probably 2X the inlets which I have not enlarged on this one. The other thing that I haven't done yet, is ramp my upper inlets, to see if that helps further. With my old 320, I finally resorted to bigger inlets after doing everything else, but I think I can get away without that with this one. One other thing, I am allowing some air around my carb inlet to flow past. Was told that helps, but haven't tried it sealed, so can't confirm that.

Walter

----- Original Message -----
From: John W <chileman88@yahoo.com>
Date: Wednesday, August 20, 2008 10:05 am
Subject: [rebel-builders] Elite Heat
To: bobp@prosumers.ca
Cc: rebel-builders@dcsol.com

Hi Bob,

Any suggestions on how to get the oil temp down on my Elite ?
Running at 22o on an 85 degree day.

I have enlarged the lower cowl bottom cutout to 1.25 the inlet
in sq inches- increased the scat hose cooling hose from the
baffle from 1 inch to 3 inches and redirecting it onto the oil
filter ,swapped out the Positec 7 row for as Niagra 8 row
and have as of yet not achieved much reduction (5-7
degrees)in oil temp.

Have a Stuart Warner filter but am resisting the firewall
retrofit until I am out of options?

Tks

John W










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[steve whitenect]

Hi John
Isn't the rule of thumb for outlet to be 1.5 times the inlet? Also try a bottom cowl lip in front of the cutout. I have a large outlet with the standard nose cowl and see high temp of 340 in 30* in climb and 310 in cruise. A friend of mine had good cyl temps and extremely high oil temp. After enlargening the outlet, his oil temps tropped over 25*. Had the cooler mounted on the firewall. Van's rule for proper cooling is no more than 2 square inches total of leakage around your baffling.

Steve W

Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2008 10:04:57 -0700> From: chileman88@yahoo.com> Subject: [rebel-builders] Elite Heat> To: bobp@prosumers.ca> CC: rebel-builders@dcsol.com> > Hi Bob,> > Any suggestions on how to get the oil temp down on my Elite ?> Running at 22o on an 85 degree day. > > I have enlarged the lower cowl bottom cutout to 1.25 the inlet in sq inches- increased the scat hose cooling hose from the baffle from 1 inch to 3 inches and redirecting it onto the oil filter ,swapped out the Positec 7 row for as Niagra 8 row and have as of yet not achieved much reduction (5-7 degrees)in oil temp.> > Have a Stuart Warner filter but am resisting the firewall retrofit until I am out of options?> > Tks > > John W > > > > > > > > > > > -----------------------------------------------------------------> List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login> username "rebel" password "builder"> Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com> List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com> -----------------

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------------------------> > >
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[chileman88]

Walter
Just got back from a test flite
My cooler is baffle mounted. I increased the opposing scat tube and directed onto the filter with a cool collar installed. I also put a 2 inch chin spoiler and a 2 inch induction mod on the cowl inlets.
My Cht run 4 415 rear
3. 75 front strangely they rise little in climb.
Today at 78 F I saw 190
Hoping tommorrow at 85
- see 200-205.
John

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

-----Original Message-----
From: WALTER KLATT <Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca>

Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2008 11:14:27
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Elite Heat


John, when you mention directing air through a scat hose to your filter, do you mean cooler? Even 3 inches is too small if it is your cooler. Most people that I know using a remote cooler have had to go to 4 inches.

I have my cooler on the rear baffle, as does Dennis with the 360, and no problems cooling in the hottest days (+30 C) and during long climbs. Anything less than 20 C OAT, and I have to partially block mine to get it up to 180 F.

CHT's have always been my challenge. With the new engine, I can keep them to below 435 on a hot day long climb, and below 400 in cruise. As it is getting broken in, I think it is running even cooler now too. One thing I noticed, is that if I put it in flaperon reflex, my CHT's cool down about 20 degrees. What is weird about this engine is that the front CHT's are running hotter than my rear ones. With the 320, the rear ones were the hottest, mostly #3. Anybody else experience this?

What are your CHT's running at?

My bottom cowl outlet is much larger, probably 2X the inlets which I have not enlarged on this one. The other thing that I haven't done yet, is ramp my upper inlets, to see if that helps further. With my old 320, I finally resorted to bigger inlets after doing everything else, but I think I can get away without that with this one. One other thing, I am allowing some air around my carb inlet to flow past. Was told that helps, but haven't tried it sealed, so can't confirm that.

Walter

----- Original Message -----
From: John W <chileman88@yahoo.com>
Date: Wednesday, August 20, 2008 10:05 am
Subject: [rebel-builders] Elite Heat
To: bobp@prosumers.ca
Cc: rebel-builders@dcsol.com

Hi Bob,

Any suggestions on how to get the oil temp down on my Elite ?
Running at 22o on an 85 degree day.

I have enlarged the lower cowl bottom cutout to 1.25 the inlet
in sq inches- increased the scat hose cooling hose from the
baffle from 1 inch to 3 inches and redirecting it onto the oil
filter ,swapped out the Positec 7 row for as Niagra 8 row
and have as of yet not achieved much reduction (5-7
degrees)in oil temp.

Have a Stuart Warner filter but am resisting the firewall
retrofit until I am out of options?

Tks

John W










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[chileman88]

Steve
I heard 1. 3 ratio but don't really know.
I have a 2 inch x 8 chin spoiler and a 2 x4 x2 top
Induction mod on the cowl inlets.
Todays test went well ran it at 2450 for 1. 2 hour mostly over the water however at high 70 F
Sealed my baffles tight all holes with rtv.
Will test again Friday at
86-88 F.
John

------Original Message------
From: steve whitenect
Sender: mike.davis@dcsol.com
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
ReplyTo: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Sent: Aug 20, 2008 2:54 PM
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Elite Heat


Hi John
Isn't the rule of thumb for outlet to be 1.5 times the inlet? Also try a bottom cowl lip in front of the cutout. I have a large outlet with the standard nose cowl and see high temp of 340 in 30* in climb and 310 in cruise. A friend of mine had good cyl temps and extremely high oil temp. After enlargening the outlet, his oil temps tropped over 25*. Had the cooler mounted on the firewall. Van's rule for proper cooling is no more than 2 square inches total of leakage around your baffling.

Steve W

Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2008 10:04:57 -0700> From: chileman88@yahoo.com> Subject: [rebel-builders] Elite Heat> To: bobp@prosumers.ca> CC: rebel-builders@dcsol.com> > Hi Bob,> > Any suggestions on how to get the oil temp down on my Elite ?> Running at 22o on an 85 degree day. > > I have enlarged the lower cowl bottom cutout to 1.25 the inlet in sq inches- increased the scat hose cooling hose from the baffle from 1 inch to 3 inches and redirecting it onto the oil filter ,swapped out the Positec 7 row for as Niagra 8 row and have as of yet not achieved much reduction (5-7 degrees)in oil temp.> > Have a Stuart Warner filter but am resisting the firewall retrofit until I am out of options?> > Tks > > John W > > > > > > > > > > > -----------------------------------------------------------------> List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login> username "rebel" password "builder"> Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com> List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com> --------

--------------------------------
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------------------------> > >
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[WALTER KLATT]

OK, if your cooler is baffle mounted, then I would suspect that your bottom outlet is not big enough. Your cruise CHTs are a little high too, which could be the same problem.

If you have a flow volume problem through your cowl, I think closing the filter duct and redirecting that flow to the cooler would do more good. If your outlet was bigger, then the flow to the filter might have helped a little more.

Is your cruise speed a little slower with the Borer compared to the Sensenich? Your engine may also be utilizing more power with the Borer, which then translates into more heat.

What's the induction mod look like on your inlets?

Walter

----- Original Message -----
From: chileman88@yahoo.com
Date: Wednesday, August 20, 2008 2:43 pm
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Elite Heat
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com

Walter
Just got back from a test flite
My cooler is baffle mounted. I increased the opposing scat
tube and directed onto the filter with a cool collar
installed. I also put a 2 inch chin spoiler and a 2 inch
induction mod on the cowl inlets.
My Cht run 4 415 rear
3. 75 front strangely they rise little in climb.
Today at 78 F I saw 190
Hoping tommorrow at 85
- see 200-205.
John

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

-----Original Message-----
From: WALTER KLATT <Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca>

Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2008 11:14:27
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Elite Heat


John, when you mention directing air through a scat hose to your
filter, do you mean cooler? Even 3 inches is too small if it is
your cooler. Most people that I know using a remote cooler have
had to go to 4 inches.

I have my cooler on the rear baffle, as does Dennis with the
360, and no problems cooling in the hottest days (+30 C) and
during long climbs. Anything less than 20 C OAT, and I have to
partially block mine to get it up to 180 F.

CHT's have always been my challenge. With the new engine, I can
keep them to below 435 on a hot day long climb, and below 400 in
cruise. As it is getting broken in, I think it is running even
cooler now too. One thing I noticed, is that if I put it in
flaperon reflex, my CHT's cool down about 20 degrees. What is
weird about this engine is that the front CHT's are running
hotter than my rear ones. With the 320, the rear ones were the
hottest, mostly #3. Anybody else experience this?

What are your CHT's running at?

My bottom cowl outlet is much larger, probably 2X the inlets
which I have not enlarged on this one. The other thing that I
haven't done yet, is ramp my upper inlets, to see if that helps
further. With my old 320, I finally resorted to bigger inlets
after doing everything else, but I think I can get away without
that with this one. One other thing, I am allowing some air
around my carb inlet to flow past. Was told that helps, but
haven't tried it sealed, so can't confirm that.

Walter

----- Original Message -----
From: John W <chileman88@yahoo.com>
Date: Wednesday, August 20, 2008 10:05 am
Subject: [rebel-builders] Elite Heat
To: bobp@prosumers.ca
Cc: rebel-builders@dcsol.com

Hi Bob,

Any suggestions on how to get the oil temp down on my Elite ?
Running at 22o on an 85 degree day.

I have enlarged the lower cowl bottom cutout to 1.25 the inlet
in sq inches- increased the scat hose cooling hose from the
baffle from 1 inch to 3 inches and redirecting it onto the oil
filter ,swapped out the Positec 7 row for as Niagra 8

row

and have as of yet not achieved much reduction (5-

7

degrees)in oil temp.

Have a Stuart Warner filter but am resisting the

firewall

retrofit until I am out of options?

Tks

John W










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[Drew Dalgleish]

At 10:04 AM 8/20/2008 -0700, you wrote:

Hi Bob,

Any suggestions on how to get the oil temp down on my Elite ?
Running at 22o on an 85 degree day.

I have enlarged the lower cowl bottom cutout to 1.25 the inlet in sq

inches- increased the scat hose cooling hose from the baffle from 1 inch to
3 inches and redirecting it onto the oil filter ,swapped out the Positec 7
row for as Niagra 8 row and have as of yet not achieved much reduction
(5-7 degrees)in oil temp.

Have a Stuart Warner filter but am resisting the firewall retrofit until

I am out of options?

Tks

John W

I couldn't get my engine to cool properly until I moved the cooler from the
firewall to the rear baffle. Check out a cherokee and install the cooler
the same way as piper does. I also lowered my temps by using ceramic header
tape on my exhaust.
Drew



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[chileman88]

Tks Drew

------Original Message------
From: Drew Dalgleish
Sender: mike.davis@dcsol.com
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
ReplyTo: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Sent: Aug 20, 2008 5:40 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Elite Heat

At 10:04 AM 8/20/2008 -0700, you wrote:

Hi Bob,

Any suggestions on how to get the oil temp down on my Elite ?
Running at 22o on an 85 degree day.

I have enlarged the lower cowl bottom cutout to 1.25 the inlet in sq

inches- increased the scat hose cooling hose from the baffle from 1 inch to
3 inches and redirecting it onto the oil filter ,swapped out the Positec 7
row for as Niagra 8 row and have as of yet not achieved much reduction
(5-7 degrees)in oil temp.

Have a Stuart Warner filter but am resisting the firewall retrofit until

I am out of options?

Tks

John W

I couldn't get my engine to cool properly until I moved the cooler from the
firewall to the rear baffle. Check out a cherokee and install the cooler
the same way as piper does. I also lowered my temps by using ceramic header
tape on my exhaust.
Drew



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[Bob Patterson]

Hi John !

Sorry I'm late getting back ! Cutting a larger hole in the bottom
definitely made things worse !! It will help if you enlarge the outlet
by going down 4" or more, AND extending the bottom rearward,
so it ends a couple of inches BEHIND the firewall. This prevents
a backflow of air into the bottom of the cowl, and promotes suction.

The other thig that will help is to smooth the airflow over that
lip at the bottom of the firewall - ideally, you'd wrap a sheet of
aluminum all the way across, to 6" above the bottom, that wraps
down, over the lip, and onto the belly. That's almost impossible to
do after building, so I used metal body repair tape to cover that
area as much as I could, working around the mounts, gascolator,
etc. - This is standard procedure on all RV's -- they gain at least
5 mph, and cooler engines !!

If I understand you, you are taking 4" scat tubes off of BOTH
sides .... I would only take ONE, down to the oil cooler -- you
might be taking too much cooling air out ....

If you can find a picture of the bottom of Walter's old O-320
cowling, THAT worked better than any I've seen ! It looks a bit
like a bullfrog, but hey, it cools !! :-)

I have added a chute to the bottom of my cowl, so I can drop
it down for hot weather, and close it for cooler .... it's just metal
in a U shape, with straight sides. Two bolts hold the sides, in
one of 3 positions ... The chute starts behind the carb, and extends
a couple of inches behind the firewall, and has a small (1.5") lip
at the bottom rear.

Sounds like you are very close to comfort already !

If your CHT sensors are the 'under-plug' type, and are
on the bottom of the cylinder, they already read about 40 degrees
hotter than the real, probe-type CHT sensors.... so maybe you
are OK now ... You can see this by moving the sensors to the
plugs on top of the cylinders ...

--
......bobp
bobp@prosumers.ca
http://www.prosumers.ca/Ramble08

http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.qhealthzone.com
http://apatterson2.ordermygift.com

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Wednesday 20 August 2008 17:04, John W wrote:

Hi Bob,

Any suggestions on how to get the oil temp down on my Elite ?
Running at 22o on an 85 degree day.

I have enlarged the lower cowl bottom cutout to 1.25 the inlet in sq
inches- increased the scat hose cooling hose from the baffle from 1 inch
to 3 inches and redirecting it onto the oil filter ,swapped out the
Positec 7 row for as Niagra 8 row and have as of yet not achieved much
reduction (5-7 degrees)in oil temp.

Have a Stuart Warner filter but am resisting the firewall retrofit until
I am out of options?

Tks

John W

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[Walter Klatt]

Yes, Bob, I ended up with that big opening on my old 320 cowl, to get better
cooling on hot days for long climbs. After about the 4th iteration, it was
adequate, but didn't get really good, until I opened up the inlets as well.
That lowered by CHTs by about 40 degrees.

On my new 360 cowl, I have a big lower opening, too, but it looks a lot
better than my last one. This one seems to be cooling a lot better already,
so with a little more tweaking, I should be OK without having to open the
inlets.

Interestingly with Dennis' new Elite, he did his own cowl with big inlets
(see the pic), but a small lower opening (much smaller than mine). Yet his
cooling is good. So despite popular wisdom on this subject, I believe that
the inlet size contributes more to cooling than the size of your outlet. A
bigger outlet, though, will help if your inlets are too small, to a point,
as I found out with my old cowl.

Another difference might be prop spacing. My old 320 had a 1.75 inch spacer,
while my 360 has 2.5.

Speed makes a big difference, too. As I said before, going into reflex will
lower my CHTs. And of course a wheeled plane usually has no problem with
heat.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Bob
Patterson
Sent: August 20, 2008 5:27 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Elite Heat


Hi John !

Sorry I'm late getting back ! Cutting a larger hole in the bottom
definitely made things worse !! It will help if you enlarge the outlet
by going down 4" or more, AND extending the bottom rearward,
so it ends a couple of inches BEHIND the firewall. This prevents
a backflow of air into the bottom of the cowl, and promotes suction.

The other thig that will help is to smooth the airflow over that
lip at the bottom of the firewall - ideally, you'd wrap a sheet of
aluminum all the way across, to 6" above the bottom, that wraps
down, over the lip, and onto the belly. That's almost impossible to
do after building, so I used metal body repair tape to cover that
area as much as I could, working around the mounts, gascolator,
etc. - This is standard procedure on all RV's -- they gain at least
5 mph, and cooler engines !!

If I understand you, you are taking 4" scat tubes off of BOTH
sides .... I would only take ONE, down to the oil cooler -- you
might be taking too much cooling air out ....

If you can find a picture of the bottom of Walter's old O-320
cowling, THAT worked better than any I've seen ! It looks a bit
like a bullfrog, but hey, it cools !! :-)

I have added a chute to the bottom of my cowl, so I can drop
it down for hot weather, and close it for cooler .... it's just metal
in a U shape, with straight sides. Two bolts hold the sides, in
one of 3 positions ... The chute starts behind the carb, and extends
a couple of inches behind the firewall, and has a small (1.5") lip
at the bottom rear.

Sounds like you are very close to comfort already !

If your CHT sensors are the 'under-plug' type, and are
on the bottom of the cylinder, they already read about 40 degrees
hotter than the real, probe-type CHT sensors.... so maybe you
are OK now ... You can see this by moving the sensors to the
plugs on top of the cylinders ...

--
......bobp
bobp@prosumers.ca
http://www.prosumers.ca/Ramble08

http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.qhealthzone.com
http://apatterson2.ordermygift.com

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Wednesday 20 August 2008 17:04, John W wrote:

Hi Bob,

Any suggestions on how to get the oil temp down on my Elite ?
Running at 22o on an 85 degree day.

I have enlarged the lower cowl bottom cutout to 1.25 the inlet in sq
inches- increased the scat hose cooling hose from the baffle from 1 inch
to 3 inches and redirecting it onto the oil filter ,swapped out the
Positec 7 row for as Niagra 8 row and have as of yet not achieved much
reduction (5-7 degrees)in oil temp.

Have a Stuart Warner filter but am resisting the firewall retrofit until
I am out of options?

Tks

John W

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[Bob Patterson]

Please post some pics of your cowl, Walter !!

I'm sure all would like to see them !

--
......bobp
bobp@prosumers.ca
http://www.prosumers.ca/Ramble08

http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.qhealthzone.com
http://apatterson2.ordermygift.com

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Thursday 21 August 2008 01:29, Walter Klatt wrote:

Yes, Bob, I ended up with that big opening on my old 320 cowl, to get
better cooling on hot days for long climbs. After about the 4th iteration,
it was adequate, but didn't get really good, until I opened up the inlets
as well. That lowered by CHTs by about 40 degrees.

On my new 360 cowl, I have a big lower opening, too, but it looks a lot
better than my last one. This one seems to be cooling a lot better
already, so with a little more tweaking, I should be OK without having to
open the inlets.

Interestingly with Dennis' new Elite, he did his own cowl with big inlets
(see the pic), but a small lower opening (much smaller than mine). Yet his
cooling is good. So despite popular wisdom on this subject, I believe that
the inlet size contributes more to cooling than the size of your outlet. A
bigger outlet, though, will help if your inlets are too small, to a point,
as I found out with my old cowl.

Another difference might be prop spacing. My old 320 had a 1.75 inch
spacer, while my 360 has 2.5.

Speed makes a big difference, too. As I said before, going into reflex
will lower my CHTs. And of course a wheeled plane usually has no problem
with heat.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Bob
Patterson
Sent: August 20, 2008 5:27 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Elite Heat


Hi John !

Sorry I'm late getting back ! Cutting a larger hole in the bottom
definitely made things worse !! It will help if you enlarge the outlet
by going down 4" or more, AND extending the bottom rearward,
so it ends a couple of inches BEHIND the firewall. This prevents
a backflow of air into the bottom of the cowl, and promotes suction.

The other thig that will help is to smooth the airflow over that
lip at the bottom of the firewall - ideally, you'd wrap a sheet of
aluminum all the way across, to 6" above the bottom, that wraps
down, over the lip, and onto the belly. That's almost impossible to
do after building, so I used metal body repair tape to cover that
area as much as I could, working around the mounts, gascolator,
etc. - This is standard procedure on all RV's -- they gain at least
5 mph, and cooler engines !!

If I understand you, you are taking 4" scat tubes off of BOTH
sides .... I would only take ONE, down to the oil cooler -- you
might be taking too much cooling air out ....

If you can find a picture of the bottom of Walter's old O-320
cowling, THAT worked better than any I've seen ! It looks a bit
like a bullfrog, but hey, it cools !! :-)

I have added a chute to the bottom of my cowl, so I can drop
it down for hot weather, and close it for cooler .... it's just metal
in a U shape, with straight sides. Two bolts hold the sides, in
one of 3 positions ... The chute starts behind the carb, and extends
a couple of inches behind the firewall, and has a small (1.5") lip
at the bottom rear.

Sounds like you are very close to comfort already !

If your CHT sensors are the 'under-plug' type, and are
on the bottom of the cylinder, they already read about 40 degrees
hotter than the real, probe-type CHT sensors.... so maybe you
are OK now ... You can see this by moving the sensors to the
plugs on top of the cylinders ...

--
......bobp
bobp@prosumers.ca
http://www.prosumers.ca/Ramble08

http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.qhealthzone.com
http://apatterson2.ordermygift.com

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[Walter Klatt]

I haven't taken any pics of it yet myself, although I know lots of others
have. Maybe someone on the list has one (Garry?). In any case, can do, just
have to remember to take my camera next time to the hangar.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Bob
Patterson
Sent: August 20, 2008 6:52 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Elite Heat


Please post some pics of your cowl, Walter !!

I'm sure all would like to see them !

--
......bobp
bobp@prosumers.ca
http://www.prosumers.ca/Ramble08

http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.qhealthzone.com
http://apatterson2.ordermygift.com

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Thursday 21 August 2008 01:29, Walter Klatt wrote:

Yes, Bob, I ended up with that big opening on my old 320 cowl, to get
better cooling on hot days for long climbs. After about the 4th iteration,
it was adequate, but didn't get really good, until I opened up the inlets
as well. That lowered by CHTs by about 40 degrees.

On my new 360 cowl, I have a big lower opening, too, but it looks a lot
better than my last one. This one seems to be cooling a lot better
already, so with a little more tweaking, I should be OK without having to
open the inlets.

Interestingly with Dennis' new Elite, he did his own cowl with big inlets
(see the pic), but a small lower opening (much smaller than mine). Yet his
cooling is good. So despite popular wisdom on this subject, I believe that
the inlet size contributes more to cooling than the size of your outlet. A
bigger outlet, though, will help if your inlets are too small, to a point,
as I found out with my old cowl.

Another difference might be prop spacing. My old 320 had a 1.75 inch
spacer, while my 360 has 2.5.

Speed makes a big difference, too. As I said before, going into reflex
will lower my CHTs. And of course a wheeled plane usually has no problem
with heat.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Bob
Patterson
Sent: August 20, 2008 5:27 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Elite Heat


Hi John !

Sorry I'm late getting back ! Cutting a larger hole in the bottom
definitely made things worse !! It will help if you enlarge the outlet
by going down 4" or more, AND extending the bottom rearward,
so it ends a couple of inches BEHIND the firewall. This prevents
a backflow of air into the bottom of the cowl, and promotes suction.

The other thig that will help is to smooth the airflow over that
lip at the bottom of the firewall - ideally, you'd wrap a sheet of
aluminum all the way across, to 6" above the bottom, that wraps
down, over the lip, and onto the belly. That's almost impossible to
do after building, so I used metal body repair tape to cover that
area as much as I could, working around the mounts, gascolator,
etc. - This is standard procedure on all RV's -- they gain at least
5 mph, and cooler engines !!

If I understand you, you are taking 4" scat tubes off of BOTH
sides .... I would only take ONE, down to the oil cooler -- you
might be taking too much cooling air out ....

If you can find a picture of the bottom of Walter's old O-320
cowling, THAT worked better than any I've seen ! It looks a bit
like a bullfrog, but hey, it cools !! :-)

I have added a chute to the bottom of my cowl, so I can drop
it down for hot weather, and close it for cooler .... it's just metal
in a U shape, with straight sides. Two bolts hold the sides, in
one of 3 positions ... The chute starts behind the carb, and extends
a couple of inches behind the firewall, and has a small (1.5") lip
at the bottom rear.

Sounds like you are very close to comfort already !

If your CHT sensors are the 'under-plug' type, and are
on the bottom of the cylinder, they already read about 40 degrees
hotter than the real, probe-type CHT sensors.... so maybe you
are OK now ... You can see this by moving the sensors to the
plugs on top of the cylinders ...

--
......bobp
bobp@prosumers.ca
http://www.prosumers.ca/Ramble08

http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.qhealthzone.com
http://apatterson2.ordermygift.com

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[Walter Klatt]

OK, just had someone send me some pics of my plane with the new cowl. I
posted the files, so again just click on new files to see them.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Walter
Klatt
Sent: August 20, 2008 7:13 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Elite Heat

I haven't taken any pics of it yet myself, although I know lots of others
have. Maybe someone on the list has one (Garry?). In any case, can do, just
have to remember to take my camera next time to the hangar.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Bob
Patterson
Sent: August 20, 2008 6:52 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Elite Heat


Please post some pics of your cowl, Walter !!

I'm sure all would like to see them !

--
......bobp
bobp@prosumers.ca
http://www.prosumers.ca/Ramble08

http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.qhealthzone.com
http://apatterson2.ordermygift.com

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Thursday 21 August 2008 01:29, Walter Klatt wrote:

Yes, Bob, I ended up with that big opening on my old 320 cowl, to get
better cooling on hot days for long climbs. After about the 4th iteration,
it was adequate, but didn't get really good, until I opened up the inlets
as well. That lowered by CHTs by about 40 degrees.

On my new 360 cowl, I have a big lower opening, too, but it looks a lot
better than my last one. This one seems to be cooling a lot better
already, so with a little more tweaking, I should be OK without having to
open the inlets.

Interestingly with Dennis' new Elite, he did his own cowl with big inlets
(see the pic), but a small lower opening (much smaller than mine). Yet his
cooling is good. So despite popular wisdom on this subject, I believe that
the inlet size contributes more to cooling than the size of your outlet. A
bigger outlet, though, will help if your inlets are too small, to a point,
as I found out with my old cowl.

Another difference might be prop spacing. My old 320 had a 1.75 inch
spacer, while my 360 has 2.5.

Speed makes a big difference, too. As I said before, going into reflex
will lower my CHTs. And of course a wheeled plane usually has no problem
with heat.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Bob
Patterson
Sent: August 20, 2008 5:27 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Elite Heat


Hi John !

Sorry I'm late getting back ! Cutting a larger hole in the bottom
definitely made things worse !! It will help if you enlarge the outlet
by going down 4" or more, AND extending the bottom rearward,
so it ends a couple of inches BEHIND the firewall. This prevents
a backflow of air into the bottom of the cowl, and promotes suction.

The other thig that will help is to smooth the airflow over that
lip at the bottom of the firewall - ideally, you'd wrap a sheet of
aluminum all the way across, to 6" above the bottom, that wraps
down, over the lip, and onto the belly. That's almost impossible to
do after building, so I used metal body repair tape to cover that
area as much as I could, working around the mounts, gascolator,
etc. - This is standard procedure on all RV's -- they gain at least
5 mph, and cooler engines !!

If I understand you, you are taking 4" scat tubes off of BOTH
sides .... I would only take ONE, down to the oil cooler -- you
might be taking too much cooling air out ....

If you can find a picture of the bottom of Walter's old O-320
cowling, THAT worked better than any I've seen ! It looks a bit
like a bullfrog, but hey, it cools !! :-)

I have added a chute to the bottom of my cowl, so I can drop
it down for hot weather, and close it for cooler .... it's just metal
in a U shape, with straight sides. Two bolts hold the sides, in
one of 3 positions ... The chute starts behind the carb, and extends
a couple of inches behind the firewall, and has a small (1.5") lip
at the bottom rear.

Sounds like you are very close to comfort already !

If your CHT sensors are the 'under-plug' type, and are
on the bottom of the cylinder, they already read about 40 degrees
hotter than the real, probe-type CHT sensors.... so maybe you
are OK now ... You can see this by moving the sensors to the
plugs on top of the cylinders ...

--
......bobp
bobp@prosumers.ca
http://www.prosumers.ca/Ramble08

http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.qhealthzone.com
http://apatterson2.ordermygift.com

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