[rebel-builders] Empty weight

Ron Shannon · Post by **Ron Shannon** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 4:43 pm

Compared to the standard MAM tail spring and wheel, the exchange weight of
my Iron Design pneumatic and modified Champ spring was a tad over 3 lbs.
Even building for LSA gross, not everyone will think that's a bad trade off.
Of course, this particular extra weight in the tail comes with a high moment
arm -- more significant with a light engine -- but it's still just relative
to the dozens of other weight trade off decisions we make (or not) when
building. The overhead "Y" seat belt attach points added almost a pound (not
to mention several days of work) but to me, the extra security of dual
shoulder belts is worth it. When it comes to the tailwheel, trading a half
gallon of gas (+/- 6 min. flight time) for a Cadillac ride is my kind of
deal. :-)

Just my 1.5 cents.

Ron

On Sun, Jun 22, 2008 at 5:14 PM, Drew Dalgleish <drewjan@cabletv.on.ca>
wrote:
...

... My tailwheel works well and I'm very pleased
with the way it turned out but I wouldn't reccomend it for a sport rebel
It's all steel and quite heavy. Better off just getting a pneumatic tire
for the reebel wheel or as Ken suggested look at the Matco wheel.

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Ken · Post by **Ken** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 4:43 pm

The Iron Designs tailwheel has a fairly large horizontal distance
between the axle and the bolts that attach to the spring. Perhaps not
the best choice for a fibreglass spring or bolted to a single steel
leaf. Probably a good choice for an aluminum spring, or bolted to
multiple leaves of a steel spring, if you need the weight back there.

The wheel bearings in MAM's tailwheel have been noisy since day one for
me but they haven't got any worse. A wider tire would likely be better
on soft fields at heavy weights though. No wear on the pivot yet but I
have reversed the brass locking pin due to wear as mentioned by Drew
some years ago.

Ken

Ron Shannon wrote:

Charlie,

You might also consider the Iron Designs tailwheel (
http://www.irondesign-airparts.com/). It's the "Bearhawk" design, very high
quality, similar to the 3200, but cheaper. I haven't flown or taxied with
mine yet, but am very happy with the workmanship. (I am also planning a 1320
lb. GW.)

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Ron Shannon · Post by **Ron Shannon** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 4:43 pm

On Sun, Jun 22, 2008 at 7:47 PM, Ken <klehman@albedo.net> wrote:

The Iron Designs tailwheel has a fairly large horizontal distance
between the axle and the bolts that attach to the spring.

That's true. I just measured axle to bolt is ~6 3/4" for the MAM (still on a
shelf here) and 8 1/4" for the Iron Design. Although, FWIW, the distance
from axle to the center of the tail spring "clamp" at the bottom of the tail
post with my modified Champ spring is 15 1/2" -- virtually identical to the
std. MAM setup.

Ron

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Karen McCaffery · Post by **Karen McCaffery** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 4:43 pm

I also plan on finish building kit #719R as Ameteur Built 1320# to meet LSA. I am considering the Rotax 912 more seriously now and wish a few guys could elaborate on the issue of the 912 engine being moved 3 inches further forward or NOT. Can you buy a motor mount from MAM that positions the engine 3 inches further forward or do you have to custom make one? Thanks, Cris 719R

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Patterson
Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2008 6:11 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Empty weight

?
Hi Charlie !

? ? Sounds like you are on the right track !
I would recommend NOT using that Scott - several
bad experiences ... ? ?The Murphy tailwheel works
fine - maybe better if you can find a pneumatic tire
that fits (seen a couple at Princess Auto ... )

? ? If you have that solid slab of aluminum they call
a tailspring, you should grind or mill it down, to taper
in thickness from full at the clamp, to about 1/4" - 3/8"
at the tire end. ?That will give it some flex - and reduce
weight ! ? :-)

? ? Definitely do the FUS-30 mod, and the channel
across the bottom of the panel - not sure what the
other one is.....

? ? Your weight should come in around the 750 - 800 lb.
range, with all that.

--
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ......bobp
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? bobp@prosumers.ca
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? .................
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Using beep@sympatico.ca
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ONLY for travelling -
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? only good for a couple of weeks !

-------------------------------------------------------
On Friday 20 June 2008 10:15, Charlie Eubanks wrote:

Hi All

Sorry about that, this was the message I was trying to send.

This ones for all you guys who have been there done that.

I plan to certify my Rebel at 1,320 Lbs. I am told if I don't get carried
away with upholstery and fancy instrument panel that a 750 Lbs empty wt. is
doable. I understand the 100 HP Rotax installed, with exhaust, radiators
and typical accessories weights about 141 Lbs. less motor mount. The prop I
am considering is the new Sensenich composite ground adjustable which
weighs 12 Lbs. The engine instruments would be the minimum required for the
Rotax engine. Flight instruments just basic VFR, a com radio and
transponder. I have already reduced the wing tanks to two bays per wing (15
Gal. each), that by the way saved 4.1 Lbs. in aluminum tank cover material.
I had hoped to install the bungee type gear but with the die springs. I
plan to add the aft float fitting and the inner floor mostly for strength.
Also I would like to replace the Murphy tail wheel and spring with a small
Scott 2000 and leaf spring that I have. Last but not least would be the
Ontario mods. #1, 2 &3. How much weight difference they will add I don't
know. With all that stuff, do you think I could still hold the empty wt. at
around 750 Lbs? Or is this just wishful thinking? If not, about much would
it weigh? I would appreciate your thoughts and suggestions.

Charlie E. ?802R

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Ken · Post by **Ken** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 4:43 pm

I thought the horizontal distance on the MAM wheel was even less??. ie
drop a vertical from the bolts and from the axle and measure the
distance apart on the ground. The horizontal distance determines the
moment that the wheel assembly puts on the end of the spring and I'm
concerned about initiating a crack at that attach point in a fiberglass
spring or a single steel leaf that I bolt it too. It may not matter but
there have been failures of both types of spring in the past so I'm
cautious about aggravating it.
Ken

Ron Shannon wrote:

On Sun, Jun 22, 2008 at 7:47 PM, Ken <klehman@albedo.net> wrote:

The Iron Designs tailwheel has a fairly large horizontal distance
between the axle and the bolts that attach to the spring.

That's true. I just measured axle to bolt is ~6 3/4" for the MAM (still on a
shelf here) and 8 1/4" for the Iron Design. Although, FWIW, the distance
from axle to the center of the tail spring "clamp" at the bottom of the tail
post with my modified Champ spring is 15 1/2" -- virtually identical to the
std. MAM setup.

Ron

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Jim Cole · Post by **Jim Cole** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 4:43 pm

Hi Chris, Murphy doesn't have the mount - I had it made by Daniel
Sasseville, who is the Eastern Canada rep for Rotax.

http://www.rotaxservice.com/

I wanted to register mine at 1650, and wanted to make sure that the C of G
was sufficiently forward so that I could use the full carrying capacity of
the Rebel without being too tail heavy. A by-product of the extension was
that the Rebel looks long and relatively sleek - almost turbine like
(I might exaggerate a little) - at least on par to the 320 Rebels. With full
fuel (3 bays aside - 44 Gals) and 2 people I can put 200 lbs behind the
seats and still be within the C of G limits.

Some of these issues of course are not relevant to a 1320 Rebel - but IMHO
it has a nice balanced look.

Cheers
Jim R333

On 6/23/2008 6:53 AM, "Karen McCaffery" <cristucker@webtv.net> wrote:

I also plan on finish building kit #719R as Ameteur Built 1320# to meet LSA.
I am considering the Rotax 912 more seriously now and wish a few guys could
elaborate on the issue of the 912 engine being moved 3 inches further forward
or NOT. Can you buy a motor mount from MAM that positions the engine 3 inches
further forward or do you have to custom make one? Thanks,
Cris 719R

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Patterson
Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2008 6:11 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Empty weight

?
Hi Charlie !

? ? Sounds like you are on the right track !
I would recommend NOT using that Scott - several
bad experiences ... ? ?The Murphy tailwheel works
fine - maybe better if you can find a pneumatic tire
that fits (seen a couple at Princess Auto ... )

? ? If you have that solid slab of aluminum they call
a tailspring, you should grind or mill it down, to taper
in thickness from full at the clamp, to about 1/4" - 3/8"
at the tire end. ?That will give it some flex - and reduce
weight ! ? :-)

? ? Definitely do the FUS-30 mod, and the channel
across the bottom of the panel - not sure what the
other one is.....

? ? Your weight should come in around the 750 - 800 lb.
range, with all that.

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Dieter Oberbichler · Post by **Dieter Oberbichler** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 4:43 pm

Jim,
thank you, for this information.
I guess this is the road I will go too- Do you know how much the 912 ULS is
right now in Canada?
Another question to the group- I know this has mentioned before- what is the
experience/opinion with Full Lotus floats + Rebel ? Might get me in the
water quicker than making my own set of floats.....

thanks
Dieter Oberbichler
778R

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Cole" <jcole@rangroup.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 2:58 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Empty weight

Hi Chris, Murphy doesn't have the mount - I had it made by Daniel
Sasseville, who is the Eastern Canada rep for Rotax.

http://www.rotaxservice.com/

I wanted to register mine at 1650, and wanted to make sure that the C of G
was sufficiently forward so that I could use the full carrying capacity of
the Rebel without being too tail heavy. A by-product of the extension was
that the Rebel looks long and relatively sleek - almost turbine like
(I might exaggerate a little) - at least on par to the 320 Rebels. With
full
fuel (3 bays aside - 44 Gals) and 2 people I can put 200 lbs behind the
seats and still be within the C of G limits.

Some of these issues of course are not relevant to a 1320 Rebel - but IMHO
it has a nice balanced look.

Cheers
Jim R333

On 6/23/2008 6:53 AM, "Karen McCaffery" <cristucker@webtv.net> wrote:

I also plan on finish building kit #719R as Ameteur Built 1320# to meet
LSA.
I am considering the Rotax 912 more seriously now and wish a few guys
could
elaborate on the issue of the 912 engine being moved 3 inches further
forward
or NOT. Can you buy a motor mount from MAM that positions the engine 3
inches
further forward or do you have to custom make one? Thanks,
Cris 719R

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Patterson
Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2008 6:11 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Empty weight

?
Hi Charlie !

? ? Sounds like you are on the right track !
I would recommend NOT using that Scott - several
bad experiences ... ? ?The Murphy tailwheel works
fine - maybe better if you can find a pneumatic tire
that fits (seen a couple at Princess Auto ... )

? ? If you have that solid slab of aluminum they call
a tailspring, you should grind or mill it down, to taper
in thickness from full at the clamp, to about 1/4" - 3/8"
at the tire end. ?That will give it some flex - and reduce
weight ! ? :-)

? ? Definitely do the FUS-30 mod, and the channel
across the bottom of the panel - not sure what the
other one is.....

? ? Your weight should come in around the 750 - 800 lb.
range, with all that.

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Walter Klatt · Post by **Walter Klatt** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 4:43 pm

I have a Rebel on the MAM 1800s and like them. I also know of a couple of
Rebels on Full Lotus 2150s that also like them. But I have never had a
chance to fly with one, so can't give any real comparisons in terms of
performance off the water or cruise drag.

I actually fly another smaller plane with the Full Lotus on amphibs and
really them for that plane. The big advantage of the FLs is that they are
near indestructible and can be beached on rough rocky shores. They can even
be used as skis on snow in the winter, although haven't done that myself.
Performance on that plane seems to be very good. They are also very
forgiving with bad landings on water (which I have tested on that plane,
too). The bows will not dig in like normal floats.

On the bigger floats, though, I don't believe there are amphibs available
(yet), so that would be a consideration.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Dieter
Oberbichler
Sent: June 23, 2008 6:38 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Empty weight

Jim,
thank you, for this information.
I guess this is the road I will go too- Do you know how much the 912 ULS is

right now in Canada?
Another question to the group- I know this has mentioned before- what is the

experience/opinion with Full Lotus floats + Rebel ? Might get me in the
water quicker than making my own set of floats.....

thanks
Dieter Oberbichler
778R

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Cole" <jcole@rangroup.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 2:58 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Empty weight

Hi Chris, Murphy doesn't have the mount - I had it made by Daniel
Sasseville, who is the Eastern Canada rep for Rotax.

http://www.rotaxservice.com/

I wanted to register mine at 1650, and wanted to make sure that the C of G
was sufficiently forward so that I could use the full carrying capacity of
the Rebel without being too tail heavy. A by-product of the extension was
that the Rebel looks long and relatively sleek - almost turbine like
(I might exaggerate a little) - at least on par to the 320 Rebels. With
full
fuel (3 bays aside - 44 Gals) and 2 people I can put 200 lbs behind the
seats and still be within the C of G limits.

Some of these issues of course are not relevant to a 1320 Rebel - but IMHO
it has a nice balanced look.

Cheers
Jim R333

On 6/23/2008 6:53 AM, "Karen McCaffery" <cristucker@webtv.net> wrote:

I also plan on finish building kit #719R as Ameteur Built 1320# to meet
LSA.
I am considering the Rotax 912 more seriously now and wish a few guys
could
elaborate on the issue of the 912 engine being moved 3 inches further
forward
or NOT. Can you buy a motor mount from MAM that positions the engine 3
inches
further forward or do you have to custom make one? Thanks,
Cris 719R

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Patterson
Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2008 6:11 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Empty weight

?
Hi Charlie !

? ? Sounds like you are on the right track !
I would recommend NOT using that Scott - several
bad experiences ... ? ?The Murphy tailwheel works
fine - maybe better if you can find a pneumatic tire
that fits (seen a couple at Princess Auto ... )

? ? If you have that solid slab of aluminum they call
a tailspring, you should grind or mill it down, to taper
in thickness from full at the clamp, to about 1/4" - 3/8"
at the tire end. ?That will give it some flex - and reduce
weight ! ? :-)

? ? Definitely do the FUS-30 mod, and the channel
across the bottom of the panel - not sure what the
other one is.....

? ? Your weight should come in around the 750 - 800 lb.
range, with all that.

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Drew Dalgleish · Post by **Drew Dalgleish** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 4:43 pm

Hi Ron I never weighed my tailwheels but that sounds about right. My
comment was Because if you're trying to build a 750lb. rebel you need to be
aware of every extra pound going into it. That's why I suggested
alternatives. My main reason for changing tailwheels wasn't that the murphy
wheel gives a rough ride but because it's small and narrow. The field where
I like to get my fuel is often very soft and I think it's bad manners to
leave ruts all over the place.

At 07:47 PM 6/22/2008 -0700, you wrote:

Compared to the standard MAM tail spring and wheel, the exchange weight of
my Iron Design pneumatic and modified Champ spring was a tad over 3 lbs.
Even building for LSA gross, not everyone will think that's a bad trade off.
Of course, this particular extra weight in the tail comes with a high moment
arm -- more significant with a light engine -- but it's still just relative
to the dozens of other weight trade off decisions we make (or not) when
building. The overhead "Y" seat belt attach points added almost a pound (not
to mention several days of work) but to me, the extra security of dual
shoulder belts is worth it. When it comes to the tailwheel, trading a half
gallon of gas (+/- 6 min. flight time) for a Cadillac ride is my kind of
deal. :-)

Just my 1.5 cents.

Ron

On Sun, Jun 22, 2008 at 5:14 PM, Drew Dalgleish <drewjan@cabletv.on.ca>
wrote:
...

... My tailwheel works well and I'm very pleased
with the way it turned out but I wouldn't reccomend it for a sport rebel
It's all steel and quite heavy. Better off just getting a pneumatic tire
for the reebel wheel or as Ken suggested look at the Matco wheel.

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Drew

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Drew Dalgleish · Post by **Drew Dalgleish** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 4:43 pm

At 10:47 PM 6/22/2008 -0400, you wrote:

The Iron Designs tailwheel has a fairly large horizontal distance
between the axle and the bolts that attach to the spring. Perhaps not
the best choice for a fibreglass spring or bolted to a single steel
leaf. Probably a good choice for an aluminum spring, or bolted to
multiple leaves of a steel spring, if you need the weight back there.

Hi Ken I'm embarassed to admit that I've tried to break my fiberglass
spring and it's still working just fine. I've always wondered if the
fiberglass spring failures were more of a quality control issue than a
design flaw. Considering all the voids I found in the other fiberglass
parts I got from Murphy.
Drew

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Tim Hickey · Post by **Tim Hickey** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 4:43 pm

Anybody ever try to lay up a fiberglass spring?

Shouldn't be all that hard. We just need to find an ol VariEze builder and
turn him loose.

By the way, I will be putting together a master list of those planning to
attend OSH 08 in the next several days. Last year we had a very good
discussion with Mr. Murphy for an hour or so. I hope that we can do so
again.
Bob P. Can you help set this up? ( I think Bob is Rambling, but he will get
this sooner or later.)

Tim Hickey
R808

----- Original Message -----
From: "Drew Dalgleish" <drewjan@cabletv.on.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 7:35 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Empty weight

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Ron Shannon · Post by **Ron Shannon** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 4:43 pm

Dunno about the horizontal, Ken. I was just measuring a direct line
(hypotenuse) from axle to bolt -- not the horizontal line on the ground.
Can't measure that at the moment.

Ron

On Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 4:24 AM, Ken <klehman@albedo.net> wrote:

I thought the horizontal distance on the MAM wheel was even less??. ie
drop a vertical from the bolts and from the axle and measure the
distance apart on the ground. The horizontal distance determines the
moment that the wheel assembly puts on the end of the spring and I'm
concerned about initiating a crack at that attach point in a fiberglass
spring or a single steel leaf that I bolt it too. It may not matter but
there have been failures of both types of spring in the past so I'm
cautious about aggravating it.
Ken

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Jim Cole · Post by **Jim Cole** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 4:43 pm

I don't know the cost right now - but I would give Daniel a call or an email
and ask for the package price.

He's also built several Rebels in the early days, had them on Lotus floats -
trained pilots by taking off on the grass in the morning, spending the day
float training on the river and then landed back at the airport at night.

Bob and I were with him in Oshawa for the Aviation Expo this past weekend -
not a great turnout - but fun to see some people we hadn't seen for a while.

Cheers
Jim R333

On 6/23/2008 9:37 AM, "Dieter Oberbichler" <d.oberbichler@tirol.com> wrote:

Jim,
thank you, for this information.
I guess this is the road I will go too- Do you know how much the 912 ULS is
right now in Canada?
Another question to the group- I know this has mentioned before- what is the
experience/opinion with Full Lotus floats + Rebel ? Might get me in the
water quicker than making my own set of floats.....

thanks
Dieter Oberbichler
778R

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Cole" <jcole@rangroup.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 2:58 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Empty weight

Hi Chris, Murphy doesn't have the mount - I had it made by Daniel
Sasseville, who is the Eastern Canada rep for Rotax.

http://www.rotaxservice.com/

I wanted to register mine at 1650, and wanted to make sure that the C of G
was sufficiently forward so that I could use the full carrying capacity of
the Rebel without being too tail heavy. A by-product of the extension was
that the Rebel looks long and relatively sleek - almost turbine like
(I might exaggerate a little) - at least on par to the 320 Rebels. With
full
fuel (3 bays aside - 44 Gals) and 2 people I can put 200 lbs behind the
seats and still be within the C of G limits.

Some of these issues of course are not relevant to a 1320 Rebel - but IMHO
it has a nice balanced look.

Cheers
Jim R333

On 6/23/2008 6:53 AM, "Karen McCaffery" <cristucker@webtv.net> wrote:

I also plan on finish building kit #719R as Ameteur Built 1320# to meet
LSA.
I am considering the Rotax 912 more seriously now and wish a few guys
could
elaborate on the issue of the 912 engine being moved 3 inches further
forward
or NOT. Can you buy a motor mount from MAM that positions the engine 3
inches
further forward or do you have to custom make one? Thanks,
Cris 719R

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Patterson
Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2008 6:11 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Empty weight

?
Hi Charlie !

? ? Sounds like you are on the right track !
I would recommend NOT using that Scott - several
bad experiences ... ? ?The Murphy tailwheel works
fine - maybe better if you can find a pneumatic tire
that fits (seen a couple at Princess Auto ... )

? ? If you have that solid slab of aluminum they call
a tailspring, you should grind or mill it down, to taper
in thickness from full at the clamp, to about 1/4" - 3/8"
at the tire end. ?That will give it some flex - and reduce
weight ! ? :-)

? ? Definitely do the FUS-30 mod, and the channel
across the bottom of the panel - not sure what the
other one is.....

? ? Your weight should come in around the 750 - 800 lb.
range, with all that.

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