[rebel-builders] Empty weight

[Ian Donaldson]

G'day Charlie

My Rebel is pretty much the same as your specs, except I don't have a
transponder or die spring undercarriage.

I have just a basic paint scheme and no other extras and the plane weighs in
at 340kg or about 750kg.

(And it flies just great!)


Regards
Ian Donaldson
:
: Hi All
:
: Sorry about that, this was the message I was trying to send.
:
: This ones for all you guys who have been there done that.
:
: I plan to certify my Rebel at 1,320 Lbs. I am told if I don't get carried
: away with upholstery and fancy instrument panel that a 750 Lbs empty wt.
is
: doable. I understand the 100 HP Rotax installed, with exhaust, radiators
and
: typical accessories weights about 141 Lbs. less motor mount. The prop I am
: considering is the new Sensenich composite ground adjustable which weighs
12
: Lbs. The engine instruments would be the minimum required for the Rotax
: engine. Flight instruments just basic VFR, a com radio and transponder. I
: have already reduced the wing tanks to two bays per wing (15 Gal. each),
: that by the way saved 4.1 Lbs. in aluminum tank cover material. I had
hoped
: to install the bungee type gear but with the die springs. I plan to add
the
: aft float fitting and the inner floor mostly for strength. Also I would
like
: to replace the Murphy tail wheel and spring with a small Scott 2000 and
leaf
: spring that I have. Last but not least would be the Ontario mods. #1, 2
&3.
: How much weight difference they will add I don't know. With all that
stuff,
: do you think I could still hold the empty wt. at around 750 Lbs? Or is
this
: just wishful thinking? If not, about much would it weigh? I would
appreciate
: your thoughts and suggestions.
:
: Charlie E. 802R
:
:
:




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[Ken]

I don't know which Ont. mods you refer to Charlie but my memory is that
Wayne's die springs are 8 lbs more than the bungee. Perhaps another lb.
for the bushings at the top of the strut that will be needed sooner or
later since the gear is always working with die springs instead of only
during a firm landing as with bungees.
Ken

snip
Also I would
like
: to replace the Murphy tail wheel and spring with a small Scott 2000 and
leaf
: spring that I have. Last but not least would be the Ontario mods. #1, 2
&3.
: How much weight difference they will add I don't know. With all that
stuff,
: do you think I could still hold the empty wt. at around 750 Lbs? Or is
this
: just wishful thinking? If not, about much would it weigh? I would
appreciate
: your thoughts and suggestions.
:
: Charlie E. 802R

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[snowyrvr@mtaonline.net]

Charlie E and All,

Wing #1 fuel tank sealed, leak checked, and wing riveted closed! Score!!!
Craig

Original Message:
-----------------
From: Ken klehman@albedo.net
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 23:29:35 -0400
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Empty weight


I don't know which Ont. mods you refer to Charlie but my memory is that
Wayne's die springs are 8 lbs more than the bungee. Perhaps another lb.
for the bushings at the top of the strut that will be needed sooner or
later since the gear is always working with die springs instead of only
during a firm landing as with bungees.
Ken

snip
Also I would
like
: to replace the Murphy tail wheel and spring with a small Scott 2000 and
leaf
: spring that I have. Last but not least would be the Ontario mods. #1, 2
&3.
: How much weight difference they will add I don't know. With all that
stuff,
: do you think I could still hold the empty wt. at around 750 Lbs? Or is
this
: just wishful thinking? If not, about much would it weigh? I would
appreciate
: your thoughts and suggestions.
:
: Charlie E. 802R

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[Charlie Eubanks]

Congratulations Craig you did that pretty fast. Charlie
----- Original Message -----
From: <snowyrvr@mtaonline.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 10:37 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Empty weight

Charlie E and All,

Wing #1 fuel tank sealed, leak checked, and wing riveted closed! Score!!!
Craig

Original Message:
-----------------
From: Ken klehman@albedo.net
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 23:29:35 -0400
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Empty weight


I don't know which Ont. mods you refer to Charlie but my memory is that
Wayne's die springs are 8 lbs more than the bungee. Perhaps another lb.
for the bushings at the top of the strut that will be needed sooner or
later since the gear is always working with die springs instead of only
during a firm landing as with bungees.
Ken

snip
Also I would
like
: to replace the Murphy tail wheel and spring with a small Scott 2000 and
leaf
: spring that I have. Last but not least would be the Ontario mods. #1, 2
&3.
: How much weight difference they will add I don't know. With all that
stuff,
: do you think I could still hold the empty wt. at around 750 Lbs? Or is
this
: just wishful thinking? If not, about much would it weigh? I would
appreciate
: your thoughts and suggestions.
:
: Charlie E. 802R

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[Charlie Eubanks]

Thanks Ralph
That's amazing. Looks like 750 Lbs is doable if I don't get carried away. I
am not trying to build the lightest Rebel but I live on a 2000' grass strip
with 50' trees at each end. Sometimes on a hot day with a heavy load I get a
better look at the trees than I want.
Charlie E. 802R
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ralph Baker" <rebaker@sc.rr.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 9:33 PM
Subject: [rebel-builders] empty weight

Robin once told me that MAM built a 912 rebel at 700 pounds by being
absolutely focused on light weight during construction. I am sure that
did not include any extras such as the Ontario mods.
Ralph Baker



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[Charlie Eubanks]

Ken
The mod's I refer to are the tailrap Fus 30, the panel under the door Fus
26 and the door sills increased to .032 thick. Doesn't sound like a lot of
added weight. As for the die spring gear, I live and land on a lot of small
grass strips and thought the gear more suitable.
Charlie E. 802R
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken" <klehman@albedo.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 10:29 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Empty weight

I don't know which Ont. mods you refer to Charlie but my memory is that
Wayne's die springs are 8 lbs more than the bungee. Perhaps another lb.
for the bushings at the top of the strut that will be needed sooner or
later since the gear is always working with die springs instead of only
during a firm landing as with bungees.
Ken

snip
Also I would
like
: to replace the Murphy tail wheel and spring with a small Scott 2000 and
leaf
: spring that I have. Last but not least would be the Ontario mods. #1, 2
&3.
: How much weight difference they will add I don't know. With all that
stuff,
: do you think I could still hold the empty wt. at around 750 Lbs? Or is
this
: just wishful thinking? If not, about much would it weigh? I would
appreciate
: your thoughts and suggestions.
:
: Charlie E. 802R

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[Charlie Eubanks]

Thanks Ian
That's good to hear.
If you had it to do over would you have built your Rebel with the die spring
gear?
Charlie E. 802R
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ian Donaldson" <allsure@bigpond.net.au>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 9:28 AM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Empty weight

G'day Charlie

My Rebel is pretty much the same as your specs, except I don't have a
transponder or die spring undercarriage.

I have just a basic paint scheme and no other extras and the plane weighs
in
at 340kg or about 750kg.

(And it flies just great!)


Regards
Ian Donaldson
:
: Hi All
:
: Sorry about that, this was the message I was trying to send.
:
: This ones for all you guys who have been there done that.
:
: I plan to certify my Rebel at 1,320 Lbs. I am told if I don't get
carried
: away with upholstery and fancy instrument panel that a 750 Lbs empty wt.
is
: doable. I understand the 100 HP Rotax installed, with exhaust, radiators
and
: typical accessories weights about 141 Lbs. less motor mount. The prop I
am
: considering is the new Sensenich composite ground adjustable which
weighs
12
: Lbs. The engine instruments would be the minimum required for the Rotax
: engine. Flight instruments just basic VFR, a com radio and transponder.
I
: have already reduced the wing tanks to two bays per wing (15 Gal. each),
: that by the way saved 4.1 Lbs. in aluminum tank cover material. I had
hoped
: to install the bungee type gear but with the die springs. I plan to add
the
: aft float fitting and the inner floor mostly for strength. Also I would
like
: to replace the Murphy tail wheel and spring with a small Scott 2000 and
leaf
: spring that I have. Last but not least would be the Ontario mods. #1, 2
&3.
: How much weight difference they will add I don't know. With all that
stuff,
: do you think I could still hold the empty wt. at around 750 Lbs? Or is
this
: just wishful thinking? If not, about much would it weigh? I would
appreciate
: your thoughts and suggestions.
:
: Charlie E. 802R
:
:
:




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[Ken]

Charlie Eubanks wrote:

Ken
The mod's I refer to are the tailrap Fus 30,

2 sq. feet of 0.032

the panel under the door Fus 26

2 sq. feet of .012 if you increase from 0.020 to 0.032

and the door sills increased to .032 thick.

just over 2 sq. feet of 0.012

Lots of other places to take more than that out if you want. Lightening
holes in the wing spar and floor channels for example. I'd use
lightening holes in the 2x2 floor carry throughs before I'd saw them in
half though.

One or two guys have not recommended the Scott 2000 here. I'm not
familiar with it. The pneumatic Matco tailwheel is another possible
cheap light alternative to the solid MAM wheel. I picked up a very cheap
pneumatic wheel that I intend to put on MAM's assembly.

I think the die springs have paid for themselves in reduced airframe
wear and tear on my machine and they are a bit less drag than the
bungees I think. They also let me run the tire pressure high enough to
keep the tires from rotating on the rims.

Ken

Doesn't sound like a lot of
added weight. As for the die spring gear, I live and land on a lot of small
grass strips and thought the gear more suitable.
Charlie E. 802R

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[Garry]

One of those was me. There were two issues with the Scott 2000 or
previous 24B. One was being a solid tire and the other was the single
arm character. I experienced some tailcone damage from my 24B (which was
the same thing) when swinging the tail over the edge of a taxiway and
back on. (I would not have thought this maneuver extreme at the time and
still don't).

A mod which included some reinforcements and extra wrap in the back end
had not been done. One mod wasn't available when the plane was built and
the other not done because the plane was mostly on floats anyway. I
expect your 'light' rebel would not include the tailwrap doubler so I
would consider the Scott2000 only suitable for paved runways under that
circumstance. The only thing you have going for you on this that I did
not have is your airplane will be 200# lighter than mine. That will
diminish the forces in the tailcone but probably not enough to avoid
damage permanently.

The pneumatic tire of larger diameter is definitely worth the effort to
change IMHO. I concluded that the Scott2000 is only suitable for
aircraft that have a tubular frame or a structure specifically designed
for it. The Rebel is not designed for such a tailwheel. I ultimately
settled on a Scott 3200 which I am very happy with.

Garry

Ken wrote:

Charlie Eubanks wrote:

Ken
The mod's I refer to are the tailrap Fus 30,

2 sq. feet of 0.032

the panel under the door Fus 26

2 sq. feet of .012 if you increase from 0.020 to 0.032

and the door sills increased to .032 thick.

just over 2 sq. feet of 0.012

Lots of other places to take more than that out if you want. Lightening
holes in the wing spar and floor channels for example. I'd use
lightening holes in the 2x2 floor carry throughs before I'd saw them in
half though.




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[Charlie Eubanks]

Thanks for the heads up on the Scott 2000. I agree the die spring gear has a
a lot going for it.
Charlie E. 802R
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken" <klehman@albedo.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2008 7:04 AM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Empty weight

Charlie Eubanks wrote:

Ken
The mod's I refer to are the tailrap Fus 30,

2 sq. feet of 0.032

the panel under the door Fus 26

2 sq. feet of .012 if you increase from 0.020 to 0.032

and the door sills increased to .032 thick.

just over 2 sq. feet of 0.012

Lots of other places to take more than that out if you want. Lightening
holes in the wing spar and floor channels for example. I'd use
lightening holes in the 2x2 floor carry throughs before I'd saw them in
half though.

One or two guys have not recommended the Scott 2000 here. I'm not
familiar with it. The pneumatic Matco tailwheel is another possible
cheap light alternative to the solid MAM wheel. I picked up a very cheap
pneumatic wheel that I intend to put on MAM's assembly.

I think the die springs have paid for themselves in reduced airframe
wear and tear on my machine and they are a bit less drag than the
bungees I think. They also let me run the tire pressure high enough to
keep the tires from rotating on the rims.

Ken

Doesn't sound like a lot of
added weight. As for the die spring gear, I live and land on a lot of
small
grass strips and thought the gear more suitable.
Charlie E. 802R

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[Charlie Eubanks]

Garry

My kit is a typical Rebel kit that would normally gross at 1650 Lbs. I plan
to certify it "amateur built" at 1,320 Lbs. so it can be flown under the LSA
pilot rules. I do plan on adding the "Ontario Mod" tail rap and I agree the
Scott 3200 tail wheel would be a better choice. Thanks for the advice.

Charlie E. 802R

----- Original Message -----
From: "Garry" <wright.garry30@gmail.com>
To: "rebel builders" <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2008 6:21 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Empty weight

I ultimately
settled on a Scott 3200 which I am very happy with.

Garry



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[Ron Shannon]

Charlie,

You might also consider the Iron Designs tailwheel (
http://www.irondesign-airparts.com/). It's the "Bearhawk" design, very high
quality, similar to the 3200, but cheaper. I haven't flown or taxied with
mine yet, but am very happy with the workmanship. (I am also planning a 1320
lb. GW.)

Ron
254R
"wiring, wiring..."


On Sun, Jun 22, 2008 at 9:33 AM, Charlie Eubanks <charlie@troyairpark.com>
wrote:

Garry

My kit is a typical Rebel kit that would normally gross at 1650 Lbs. I plan
to certify it "amateur built" at 1,320 Lbs. so it can be flown under the
LSA
pilot rules. I do plan on adding the "Ontario Mod" tail rap and I agree the
Scott 3200 tail wheel would be a better choice. Thanks for the advice.

Charlie E. 802R

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[Charlie Eubanks]

Thanks Ron, I will check it out.
Charlie E.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Shannon" <rshannon@cruzcom.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2008 11:59 AM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Empty weight

Charlie,

You might also consider the Iron Designs tailwheel (
http://www.irondesign-airparts.com/). It's the "Bearhawk" design, very
high
quality, similar to the 3200, but cheaper. I haven't flown or taxied with
mine yet, but am very happy with the workmanship. (I am also planning a
1320
lb. GW.)

Ron
254R
"wiring, wiring..."





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[Bob Patterson]

[Drew Dalgleish]

Hi Charlie I have a bearhawk tailwheel too you can build it yourself from
drawings by Bob Barrows the bearhawk designer $25. You'll need access to a
lathe and welding equipment. My tailwheel works well and I'm very pleased
with the way it turned out but I wouldn't reccomend it for a sport rebel
It's all steel and quite heavy. Better off just getting a pneumatic tire
for the reebel wheel or as Ken suggested look at the Matco wheel.

At 09:59 AM 6/22/2008 -0700, you wrote:

Charlie,

You might also consider the Iron Designs tailwheel (
http://www.irondesign-airparts.com/). It's the "Bearhawk" design, very high
quality, similar to the 3200, but cheaper. I haven't flown or taxied with
mine yet, but am very happy with the workmanship. (I am also planning a 1320
lb. GW.)

Ron
254R
"wiring, wiring..."


On Sun, Jun 22, 2008 at 9:33 AM, Charlie Eubanks <charlie@troyairpark.com>
wrote:

Garry

My kit is a typical Rebel kit that would normally gross at 1650 Lbs. I plan
to certify it "amateur built" at 1,320 Lbs. so it can be flown under the
LSA
pilot rules. I do plan on adding the "Ontario Mod" tail rap and I agree the
Scott 3200 tail wheel would be a better choice. Thanks for the advice.

Charlie E. 802R

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Drew



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