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[rebel-builders] Fuel Tank Sending Gauge/snorkels

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Ken

[rebel-builders] Fuel Tank Sending Gauge/snorkels

Post by Ken » Sun Feb 19, 2012 4:32 pm

I believe snorkels (ram vents) can add about 5" of head to the fuel in
cruise if the fuel caps are sealed. MAM's caps are not sealed and I
certainly don't need that additional head anyway. So with the MAM fuel
caps, I'd suggest that snorkels may not be a great idea for everyone as
the caps will continuously vent that ram air pressure. I have one
snorkel in my cross vent and the cross vent through the cabin is
transparent. It always has some fuel trapped in it. In flight there is a
significant flow of air through that cross vent and out the fuel cap. I
used to think this was just air replacing fuel but it occurs even when
not feeding from that tank. Not just bubbles but continuous and vigorous
burps. I have not drilled the filler necks, so it is going out the cap.
Anyway in addition to the expense of venting fuel vapour and the
pollution, it is also keeping a combustible air mixture in the tanks.
Without this airflow, the vapor in the tank would generally be too rich
to burn. Perhaps not significant, but I can just barely imagine slightly
more risk from static during refueling and perhaps a tiny bit more risk
with in tank pumps or in tank electric quantity sensors as well.
Ken

Ron Shannon wrote:
The upper forward hole is for the cross vent, which is necessary to equalize
pressure in the tanks, such as if one external vent (see below) is plugged
by bugs, for example. Imagine what happens if one tank's external vent is
plugged and there's no cross vent. The tank develops negative pressure --
and the fuel stops flowing down. That may result in fuel starvation and ruin
your day -- whether you inline valves for each tank, or just one valve at
or after the junction of the fuel lines from the two tanks. Regardless, the
cross vent is mandatory. I have some pictures of mine & will try to locate
them.

Of course, you also need the external vents, which could be snorkels coming
up from somewhere in the cross vent, or snorkels in the gas caps. Both
locations will put some positive air pressure into the tanks, which is a
good thing. Putting snorkels in the gas caps may be a little better, because
you don't run the risk of a blockage in the cross vent line between
snorkel(s) and tank(s), and snorkels in the gas caps are easily tested with
a blow when you add fuel, etc.

Not sure about your descriptions of the other holes. The bottom-most hole in
the root rib, about 7-8 inches forward of the torque tube, is for fuel line
output. The hole in the bottom of the wing is for a fuel tester drain.

If you use capacitance probe gauges (or some float gauge type -- as far as
that goes) you'll need to cut a hole for them, per their installation
instructions. See the photo I linked to before, where the capacitance probes
are shown as a roughly 2.5" dia. black "hockey puck" circle near the upper
forward part of the rib, about 2 inches forward of the cross vent
connection.

Ron

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Ron Shannon

[rebel-builders] Fuel Tank Sending Gauge/snorkels

Post by Ron Shannon » Sun Feb 19, 2012 4:37 pm

Interesting points, Ken. I hadn't realized the MAM caps were so leaky.

Come to think of it, I've never seen a "perfect" vent system on a GA
airplane -- "perfect" having a lot of variables and a moving target. Sounds
like you may have it relatively optimized, to the extent that's possible,
with good cross venting while minimizing the external vent action somewhat.

Ron


On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 4:41 PM, Ken <klehman@albedo.net> wrote:
I believe snorkels (ram vents) can add about 5" of head to the fuel in
cruise if the fuel caps are sealed. MAM's caps are not sealed and I
certainly don't need that additional head anyway. So with the MAM fuel
caps, I'd suggest that snorkels may not be a great idea for everyone as
the caps will continuously vent that ram air pressure. I have one
snorkel in my cross vent and the cross vent through the cabin is
transparent. It always has some fuel trapped in it. In flight there is a
significant flow of air through that cross vent and out the fuel cap. I
used to think this was just air replacing fuel but it occurs even when
not feeding from that tank. Not just bubbles but continuous and vigorous
burps. I have not drilled the filler necks, so it is going out the cap.
Anyway in addition to the expense of venting fuel vapour and the
pollution, it is also keeping a combustible air mixture in the tanks.
Without this airflow, the vapor in the tank would generally be too rich
to burn. Perhaps not significant, but I can just barely imagine slightly
more risk from static during refueling and perhaps a tiny bit more risk
with in tank pumps or in tank electric quantity sensors as well.
Ken


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Ken

[rebel-builders] Fuel Tank Sending Gauge/snorkels

Post by Ken » Sun Feb 19, 2012 4:37 pm

Hi Ron
MAM's fuel caps are very similar to the cap on my 1937 Ford tractor
which also leaks like a sieve. At 71 years old, that one at least has an
excuse ;)

MAM has a bulletin to drill the filler necks in case the caps do not let
enough air in. I'm starting to think they had a good idea unless someone
truly needs 5" of ram effect -in which case they might want to change or
modify the caps...

I might lose the snorkel. Hey that will be a first - a mod that loses
weight and drag :)

Speaking of mods. Coming home from sun'n fun in the rain, I chewed up
the leading edge of my warp prop a tiny bit for about 3" inboard of the
metal leading edge protection. A bit of epoxy, paint and yes now I'll
add the protection tape they supplied with the prop!

Ken

Ron Shannon wrote:
Interesting points, Ken. I hadn't realized the MAM caps were so leaky.
Come to think of it, I've never seen a "perfect" vent system on a GA
airplane -- "perfect" having a lot of variables and a moving target. Sounds
like you may have it relatively optimized, to the extent that's possible,
with good cross venting while minimizing the external vent action somewhat.

Ron


On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 4:41 PM, Ken <klehman@albedo.net> wrote:
I believe snorkels (ram vents) can add about 5" of head to the fuel in
cruise if the fuel caps are sealed. MAM's caps are not sealed and I
certainly don't need that additional head anyway. So with the MAM fuel
caps, I'd suggest that snorkels may not be a great idea for everyone as
the caps will continuously vent that ram air pressure. I have one
snorkel in my cross vent and the cross vent through the cabin is
transparent. It always has some fuel trapped in it. In flight there is a
significant flow of air through that cross vent and out the fuel cap. I
used to think this was just air replacing fuel but it occurs even when
not feeding from that tank. Not just bubbles but continuous and vigorous
burps. I have not drilled the filler necks, so it is going out the cap.
Anyway in addition to the expense of venting fuel vapour and the
pollution, it is also keeping a combustible air mixture in the tanks.
Without this airflow, the vapor in the tank would generally be too rich
to burn. Perhaps not significant, but I can just barely imagine slightly
more risk from static during refueling and perhaps a tiny bit more risk
with in tank pumps or in tank electric quantity sensors as well.
Ken


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jimsrebel

[rebel-builders] Fuel Tank Sending Gauge/snorkels

Post by jimsrebel » Sun Feb 19, 2012 4:37 pm

The air flow caused by leaky fuel caps is really bad if you fly in the rain. If
the caps seal tight the air flow into the tank is equal to the volume of fuel
burn and head pressure is maintained.

MAM idea of drilling a hole in the back side of the filler neck always worried
me as this could be a vacuum, not a ram air source. If you are using a fuel
pump it wouldn

Ron Shannon

[rebel-builders] Fuel Tank Sending Gauge/snorkels

Post by Ron Shannon » Sun Feb 19, 2012 4:37 pm

Hi Jim. Yes, I remember being present somewhere looking at some such holes
on the aft side of somebody's caps/necks and worrying about vacuum. In any
case, I don't understand the purpose of drilling the filler neck, if there's
a vent. What am I missing?

Of course, I've already built the vent plumbing on 254R, but I sure did
slice and dice the design possibilities ad nauseum before deciding on all
metal tubing and dual cap snorkels. I even read the archives! :-)

Ron



On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 6:35 PM, <jimsrebel@dcsol.com> wrote:
The air flow caused by leaky fuel caps is really bad if you fly in the
rain. If
the caps seal tight the air flow into the tank is equal to the volume of
fuel
burn and head pressure is maintained.

MAM idea of drilling a hole in the back side of the filler neck always
worried
me as this could be a vacuum, not a ram air source. If you are using a
fuel
pump it wouldn't matter, but gravity feed fuel systems use ram air to push
the fuel.



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jimsrebel

[rebel-builders] Fuel Tank Sending Gauge/snorkels

Post by jimsrebel » Sun Feb 19, 2012 4:37 pm

Drilling the filler caps was ... before the. snorkel vent in the vent line.

DONT drill the filler caps or just put a 1/8 rivet in the hole if you did and use
ram air into the tanks is the current idea from MAM


On 4/19/2008 5:44 PM, rshannon@cruzcom.com wrote to rebel-builders:

-> Hi Jim. Yes, I remember being present somewhere looking at some such
holes
-> on the aft side of somebody's caps/necks and worrying about vacuum. In
any
-> case, I don't understand the purpose of drilling the filler neck, if there's
-> a vent. What am I missing?
->
-> Of course, I've already built the vent plumbing on 254R, but I sure did
-> slice and dice the design possibilities ad nauseum before deciding on all
-> metal tubing and dual cap snorkels. I even read the archives! :-)
->
-> Ron
->
->
->
-> On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 6:35 PM, <jimsrebel@dcsol.com> wrote:
->
-> > The air flow caused by leaky fuel caps is really bad if you fly in the
-> > rain. If
-> > the caps seal tight the air flow into the tank is equal to the volume of
-> > fuel
-> > burn and head pressure is maintained.
-> >
-> > MAM idea of drilling a hole in the back side of the filler neck always
-> > worried
-> > me as this could be a vacuum, not a ram air source. If you are using a
-> > fuel
-> > pump it wouldn't matter, but gravity feed fuel systems use ram air to
push
-> > the fuel.
-> >
-> >
->




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Craig Walls

[rebel-builders] Fuel Tank Sending Gauge/snorkels

Post by Craig Walls » Sun Feb 19, 2012 4:37 pm

Wow! I was working hard just to cut metal straight and rivet correctly!
After all of this on fuel tanks I am left even more confused and worried
than I was. So what is the bottom line?

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
jimsrebel@dcsol.com
Sent: Saturday, April 19, 2008 6:59 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Fuel Tank Sending Gauge/snorkels

Drilling the filler caps was ... before the. snorkel vent in the vent line.

DONT drill the filler caps or just put a 1/8 rivet in the hole if you did
and use
ram air into the tanks is the current idea from MAM


On 4/19/2008 5:44 PM, rshannon@cruzcom.com wrote to rebel-builders:

-> Hi Jim. Yes, I remember being present somewhere looking at some such
holes
-> on the aft side of somebody's caps/necks and worrying about vacuum. In
any
-> case, I don't understand the purpose of drilling the filler neck, if
there's
-> a vent. What am I missing?
->
-> Of course, I've already built the vent plumbing on 254R, but I sure did
-> slice and dice the design possibilities ad nauseum before deciding on all
-> metal tubing and dual cap snorkels. I even read the archives! :-)
->
-> Ron
->
->
->
-> On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 6:35 PM, <jimsrebel@dcsol.com> wrote:
->
-> > The air flow caused by leaky fuel caps is really bad if you fly in the
-> > rain. If
-> > the caps seal tight the air flow into the tank is equal to the volume
of
-> > fuel
-> > burn and head pressure is maintained.
-> >
-> > MAM idea of drilling a hole in the back side of the filler neck always
-> > worried
-> > me as this could be a vacuum, not a ram air source. If you are using a
-> > fuel
-> > pump it wouldn't matter, but gravity feed fuel systems use ram air to
push
-> > the fuel.
-> >
-> >
->




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Ron Shannon

[rebel-builders] Fuel Tank Sending Gauge/snorkels

Post by Ron Shannon » Sun Feb 19, 2012 4:37 pm

Rules to Live By, literally....

1) Cross venting is required.
2) External venting -- at least one (or two) in the cross vent, or one atop
each gas cap -- is also required.

Heed these words lest thy fan stop blowing and thine aeroplane commence
descent with alarming alacrity.

Amen.

:-)


On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 8:28 PM, Craig Walls <snowyrvr@mtaonline.net> wrote:
Wow! I was working hard just to cut metal straight and rivet correctly!
After all of this on fuel tanks I am left even more confused and worried
than I was. So what is the bottom line?


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Jesse Jenks

[rebel-builders] Fuel Tank Sending Gauge/snorkels

Post by Jesse Jenks » Sun Feb 19, 2012 4:37 pm

Forgive my blasphemy but,
I don't understand the mandosity, er manditoriality of the cross vent if one should put a ram air vent in each tank. The primary reason for the cross vent as far as I can tell is to provide venting to a tank if it's vent becomes clogged. However the manual only shows one "snorkel" vent in the system anyway. If that one gets plugged then the cross vent isn't going to help anyway. If you also vent your caps then each tank has it's own secondary vent. I decided to put a ram-air vent in each tank, not vent the caps, and not install a cross vent (although it would still be easy to put one in). The secondary reason sited for the cross vent is to equalize the pressure between the tanks. However there are reports on the archives of unequal fuel draw even with the X.V. I talked with a Bearhawk builder who uses a venting setup like the one I have planned, and he has only minor imbalance between tanks. It's not a problem to even out the tanks with the fuel selector.
I am on my way to confession.
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 20:34:54 -0700
From: rshannon@cruzcom.com
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Fuel Tank Sending Gauge/snorkels

Rules to Live By, literally....

1) Cross venting is required.
2) External venting -- at least one (or two) in the cross vent, or one atop
each gas cap -- is also required.

Heed these words lest thy fan stop blowing and thine aeroplane commence
descent with alarming alacrity.

Amen.

:-)


On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 8:28 PM, Craig Walls <snowyrvr@mtaonline.net> wrote:
Wow! I was working hard just to cut metal straight and rivet correctly!
After all of this on fuel tanks I am left even more confused and worried
than I was. So what is the bottom line?


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_________________________________________________________________
Get in touch in an instant. Get Windows Live Messenger now.
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Ken

[rebel-builders] Fuel Tank Sending Gauge/snorkels

Post by Ken » Sun Feb 19, 2012 4:37 pm

Hi Jesse
I would agree with you. We are all hesitant to endorse changes from
MAM's plans considering how important this issue is but there are folks
flying happily without the crossvent. My caps, as supplied, do have
vents in them but MAM seems to not trust them and therefore calls for
secondary venting which they tie into the crossvent. Personally I'd
consider two snorkels and no cross vent to be at least as good as one
snorkel and a cross vent.

My original comment was simply to report what I consider to me excessive
air flowing into my snorkel and back out through the MAM supplied fuel caps.

I think the biggest factor determining equal fuel flow for me is simply
whether I keep the ball perfectly centered or not. However since I have
a header tank (with a low fuel warning in it) and am not concerned about
drawing air slugs, it is easier to just close one tank and balance as
needed.

Ken

Jesse Jenks wrote:
Forgive my blasphemy but,
I don't understand the mandosity, er manditoriality of the cross vent if one should put a ram air vent in each tank. The primary reason for the cross vent as far as I can tell is to provide venting to a tank if it's vent becomes clogged. However the manual only shows one "snorkel" vent in the system anyway. If that one gets plugged then the cross vent isn't going to help anyway. If you also vent your caps then each tank has it's own secondary vent. I decided to put a ram-air vent in each tank, not vent the caps, and not install a cross vent (although it would still be easy to put one in). The secondary reason sited for the cross vent is to equalize the pressure between the tanks. However there are reports on the archives of unequal fuel draw even with the X.V. I talked with a Bearhawk builder who uses a venting setup like the one I have planned, and he has only minor imbalance between tanks. It's not a problem to even out the tanks with the fuel selector.
I am on my way to confession.
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 20:34:54 -0700
From: rshannon@cruzcom.com
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Fuel Tank Sending Gauge/snorkels

Rules to Live By, literally....

1) Cross venting is required.
2) External venting -- at least one (or two) in the cross vent, or one atop
each gas cap -- is also required.

Heed these words lest thy fan stop blowing and thine aeroplane commence
descent with alarming alacrity.

Amen.

:-)


On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 8:28 PM, Craig Walls <snowyrvr@mtaonline.net> wrote:
Wow! I was working hard just to cut metal straight and rivet correctly!
After all of this on fuel tanks I am left even more confused and worried
than I was. So what is the bottom line?

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_________________________________________________________________
Get in touch in an instant. Get Windows Live Messenger now.
http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/ov ... uch_042008



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Drew Dalgleish

[rebel-builders] Fuel Tank Sending Gauge/snorkels

Post by Drew Dalgleish » Sun Feb 19, 2012 4:37 pm

At 10:05 AM 4/20/2008 -0700, you wrote:
Forgive my blasphemy but,
I don't understand the mandosity, er manditoriality of the cross vent if
one should put a ram air vent in each tank. The primary reason for the
cross vent as far as I can tell is to provide venting to a tank if it's
vent becomes clogged. However the manual only shows one "snorkel" vent in
the system anyway. If that one gets plugged then the cross vent isn't going
to help anyway. If you also vent your caps then each tank has it's own
secondary vent. I decided to put a ram-air vent in each tank, not vent the
caps, and not install a cross vent (although it would still be easy to put
one in). The secondary reason sited for the cross vent is to equalize the
pressure between the tanks. However there are reports on the archives of
unequal fuel draw even with the X.V. I talked with a Bearhawk builder who
uses a venting setup like the one I have planned, and he has only minor
imbalance between tanks. It's not a problem to even out the tanks with the
fuel selector.
I am on my way to confession.
All is forgiven my son. There is a theory that if there isn't a crossvent
a situation could occur that would allow fuel to be siphoned from one tank
into the other and out the vent. An early rebel crashed from fuel
starvation on it's way to Oshkosh and this is suspected to be the cause.
That is when the service bulletin was put out requiring a crossvent. As far
as I know the factory still doesn't call for a ram air tube. It seems to me
that it would be very hard to get a siphon going with 2 ram air tubes.
Drew



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Ron Shannon

[rebel-builders] Fuel Tank Sending Gauge/snorkels

Post by Ron Shannon » Sun Feb 19, 2012 4:37 pm

You're right! Enough of this overbuilding syndrome. No other vent or cross
vent is needed at all as long as the gas caps always leak enough and/or the
primary tank vents never get blocked at all... not by flying bugs, hangar
spiders, random debris, downy bird feathers, wind blown seed pods, silly
pranks, snow, bird strikes, bent vent tubes, or....

Where do you fly again? I don't like any of that stuff either and would like
to move there. :-)

Ron

PS - I'm headed to confession too, seeking pardon for sarcasm.



On Sun, Apr 20, 2008 at 10:05 AM, Jesse Jenks <jessejenks@hotmail.com>
wrote:
Forgive my blasphemy but,
I don't understand the mandosity, er manditoriality of the cross vent if
one should put a ram air vent in each tank. The primary reason for the cross
vent as far as I can tell is to provide venting to a tank if it's vent
becomes clogged. However the manual only shows one "snorkel" vent in the
system anyway. If that one gets plugged then the cross vent isn't going to
help anyway. If you also vent your caps then each tank has it's own
secondary vent. I decided to put a ram-air vent in each tank, not vent the
caps, and not install a cross vent (although it would still be easy to put
one in). The secondary reason sited for the cross vent is to equalize the
pressure between the tanks. However there are reports on the archives of
unequal fuel draw even with the X.V. I talked with a Bearhawk builder who
uses a venting setup like the one I have planned, and he has only minor
imbalance between tanks. It's not a problem to even out the tanks with the
fuel selector.
I am on my way to confession.


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Wayne G. O'Shea

[rebel-builders] Fuel Tank Sending Gauge/snorkels

Post by Wayne G. O'Shea » Sun Feb 19, 2012 4:37 pm

Why reinvent the wheel and suffer the consequences?? I installed a ram air
vent and x over tube in 1994 ( and the same goes into every Murphy product
that goes thru our hangar). It's worked for Cessna since the '40's....why
change that success!!

I've also had better reliability/service out of good old float senders than
the capacitance ones. If you do go capacitance be sure to put a smear of
proseal on the lower tanks skin right below the tube... as over time and a
few hard landings if the capacitance tube touches the aluminum tank skin =
no worky and no fun to fix !

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Shannon" <rshannon@cruzcom.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2008 5:15 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Fuel Tank Sending Gauge/snorkels

You're right! Enough of this overbuilding syndrome. No other vent or cross
vent is needed at all as long as the gas caps always leak enough and/or
the
primary tank vents never get blocked at all... not by flying bugs, hangar
spiders, random debris, downy bird feathers, wind blown seed pods, silly
pranks, snow, bird strikes, bent vent tubes, or....

Where do you fly again? I don't like any of that stuff either and would
like
to move there. :-)

Ron

PS - I'm headed to confession too, seeking pardon for sarcasm.



On Sun, Apr 20, 2008 at 10:05 AM, Jesse Jenks <jessejenks@hotmail.com>
wrote:
Forgive my blasphemy but,
I don't understand the mandosity, er manditoriality of the cross vent if
one should put a ram air vent in each tank. The primary reason for the
cross
vent as far as I can tell is to provide venting to a tank if it's vent
becomes clogged. However the manual only shows one "snorkel" vent in the
system anyway. If that one gets plugged then the cross vent isn't going
to
help anyway. If you also vent your caps then each tank has it's own
secondary vent. I decided to put a ram-air vent in each tank, not vent
the
caps, and not install a cross vent (although it would still be easy to
put
one in). The secondary reason sited for the cross vent is to equalize the
pressure between the tanks. However there are reports on the archives of
unequal fuel draw even with the X.V. I talked with a Bearhawk builder who
uses a venting setup like the one I have planned, and he has only minor
imbalance between tanks. It's not a problem to even out the tanks with
the
fuel selector.
I am on my way to confession.


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jimsrebel

[rebel-builders] Fuel Tank Sending Gauge/snorkels

Post by jimsrebel » Sun Feb 19, 2012 4:37 pm

Even Cessna had to reinvent the wheel regarding fuel tank venting in 1979 by
fitting a vented fuel cap per Cessna SEB 92-27

Wayne G. O'Shea

[rebel-builders] Fuel Tank Sending Gauge/snorkels

Post by Wayne G. O'Shea » Sun Feb 19, 2012 4:37 pm

Well carry on.. I'll go back to staying quiet, it's time to start fishing
season anyhow.

----- Original Message -----
From: <jimsrebel@dcsol.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2008 10:32 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Fuel Tank Sending Gauge/snorkels


[quote]Even Cessna had to reinvent the wheel regarding fuel tank venting in 1979
by
fitting a vented fuel cap per Cessna SEB 92-27


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