[rebel-builders] Auto / Mo Gas

[Richard Wampach]

In the past much discussion about alternate fuels has been an issue on
this web page. Perhaps the following will help in the decision to use /
or not - Auto Fuel. Please note the statements on alcohol.


Excerpt from AOPA Online

September 2006 Volume 49 / Number 9

Facing Down Fuel Costs
How to ease the high price of avgas
By PETER A. BEDELL



Autogas STCs. For some time autogas, or "mogas," has been successfully
used as an alternative fuel for airplanes powered by low-compression
engines via the approval of a supplemental type certificate (STC).
Autogas can be obtained for a fraction of the cost of avgas, but its use
is not without controversy. Since the STCs were obtained for a number of
airplanes to use autogas, the formulation of the fuel has changed - a
lot. Today, there are higher concentrations of alcohol (ethanol) in
automotive fuels that are detrimental to rubber parts of an airplane's
fuel system (such as fuel cells, gaskets, and O-rings). In addition,
neither of the STCs (available through the Experimental Aircraft
Association [EAA] and Petersen Aviation) approves the use of autogas
spiked with alcohol, and it is becoming harder to find the untainted
gas. No longer can you fill up a 5-gallon can at the local gas station
and dump it into your airplane. AirNav lists 199 FBOs that carry mogas
that should be untainted. There also are test kits available from EAA
and Petersen that allow users to test whether the fuel is spiked.
Although the potential to save a lot of money lies in the use of
autogas, the downsides should be carefully researched.

Dick Wampach SR108




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[bransom]

For now I still consider myself fairly naive, and perhaps a little
frustrated too, on this subject. Even this AOPA excerpt does little to
enlighten. For example, it mentions nothing of ethanol increasing the
chance of carb icing. As for possible damage it mentions some things that
as far as I'm concerned, if I can build an airplane I sure as heck ought to
be able to find solutions to a few gaskets and o-rings, even if considering
them replaceable for the savings in gas $. Surely by now someone flying
has done as the article suggests and 'carefully researched' the downsides.

-Ben

In the past much discussion about alternate fuels has been an issue on
this web page. Perhaps the following will help in the decision to use /
or not - Auto Fuel. Please note the statements on alcohol.


Excerpt from AOPA Online

September 2006 Volume 49 / Number 9

Facing Down Fuel Costs
How to ease the high price of avgas
By PETER A. BEDELL



Autogas STCs. For some time autogas, or "mogas," has been successfully
used as an alternative fuel for airplanes powered by low-compression
engines via the approval of a supplemental type certificate (STC).
Autogas can be obtained for a fraction of the cost of avgas, but its use
is not without controversy. Since the STCs were obtained for a number of
airplanes to use autogas, the formulation of the fuel has changed - a
lot. Today, there are higher concentrations of alcohol (ethanol) in
automotive fuels that are detrimental to rubber parts of an airplane's
fuel system (such as fuel cells, gaskets, and O-rings). In addition,
neither of the STCs (available through the Experimental Aircraft
Association [EAA] and Petersen Aviation) approves the use of autogas
spiked with alcohol, and it is becoming harder to find the untainted
gas. No longer can you fill up a 5-gallon can at the local gas station
and dump it into your airplane. AirNav lists 199 FBOs that carry mogas
that should be untainted. There also are test kits available from EAA
and Petersen that allow users to test whether the fuel is spiked.
Although the potential to save a lot of money lies in the use of
autogas, the downsides should be carefully researched.

Dick Wampach SR108

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[Mike Kimball]

I haven't looked into this for my engine either and there's only a few of us
so probably not too much interest, but I'm thinking my Chevy V8 installation
is going to be more likely to be OK with ethanol. I'll have to find out if
there's anything in the Holley carb, electric fuel pumps, etc. to worry
about.

Mike
044SR

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
bransom@dcsol.com
Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2008 8:27 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Auto / Mo Gas

For now I still consider myself fairly naive, and perhaps a little
frustrated too, on this subject. Even this AOPA excerpt does little to
enlighten. For example, it mentions nothing of ethanol increasing the
chance of carb icing. As for possible damage it mentions some things that
as far as I'm concerned, if I can build an airplane I sure as heck ought to
be able to find solutions to a few gaskets and o-rings, even if considering
them replaceable for the savings in gas $. Surely by now someone flying
has done as the article suggests and 'carefully researched' the downsides.

-Ben

In the past much discussion about alternate fuels has been an issue on
this web page. Perhaps the following will help in the decision to use /
or not - Auto Fuel. Please note the statements on alcohol.


Excerpt from AOPA Online

September 2006 Volume 49 / Number 9

Facing Down Fuel Costs
How to ease the high price of avgas
By PETER A. BEDELL



Autogas STCs. For some time autogas, or "mogas," has been successfully
used as an alternative fuel for airplanes powered by low-compression
engines via the approval of a supplemental type certificate (STC).
Autogas can be obtained for a fraction of the cost of avgas, but its use
is not without controversy. Since the STCs were obtained for a number of
airplanes to use autogas, the formulation of the fuel has changed - a
lot. Today, there are higher concentrations of alcohol (ethanol) in
automotive fuels that are detrimental to rubber parts of an airplane's
fuel system (such as fuel cells, gaskets, and O-rings). In addition,
neither of the STCs (available through the Experimental Aircraft
Association [EAA] and Petersen Aviation) approves the use of autogas
spiked with alcohol, and it is becoming harder to find the untainted
gas. No longer can you fill up a 5-gallon can at the local gas station
and dump it into your airplane. AirNav lists 199 FBOs that carry mogas
that should be untainted. There also are test kits available from EAA
and Petersen that allow users to test whether the fuel is spiked.
Although the potential to save a lot of money lies in the use of
autogas, the downsides should be carefully researched.

Dick Wampach SR108

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[Drew Dalgleish]

I'd suggest rivetting up a couple pieces with pro-seal between and putting
it in a jar of mogas with ethanol for a month or so. I haven't tried it but
I don't think you'll be happy with the results. I had very good results
burning mogas with my 0-290 but when I bought my new engine I went with
160hp cuz I figured the mogas party was pretty much over.
Oh and while you're at it throw in a chunk of whatever kind of tubing you
plan to use for a sight guage.


At 07:26 PM 3/23/2008 -0900, you wrote:

For now I still consider myself fairly naive, and perhaps a little
frustrated too, on this subject. Even this AOPA excerpt does little to
enlighten. For example, it mentions nothing of ethanol increasing the
chance of carb icing. As for possible damage it mentions some things that
as far as I'm concerned, if I can build an airplane I sure as heck ought to
be able to find solutions to a few gaskets and o-rings, even if considering
them replaceable for the savings in gas $. Surely by now someone flying
has done as the article suggests and 'carefully researched' the downsides.

-Ben

In the past much discussion about alternate fuels has been an issue on
this web page. Perhaps the following will help in the decision to use /
or not - Auto Fuel. Please note the statements on alcohol.


Excerpt from AOPA Online

September 2006 Volume 49 / Number 9

Facing Down Fuel Costs
How to ease the high price of avgas
By PETER A. BEDELL



Autogas STCs. For some time autogas, or "mogas," has been successfully
used as an alternative fuel for airplanes powered by low-compression
engines via the approval of a supplemental type certificate (STC).
Autogas can be obtained for a fraction of the cost of avgas, but its use
is not without controversy. Since the STCs were obtained for a number of
airplanes to use autogas, the formulation of the fuel has changed - a
lot. Today, there are higher concentrations of alcohol (ethanol) in
automotive fuels that are detrimental to rubber parts of an airplane's
fuel system (such as fuel cells, gaskets, and O-rings). In addition,
neither of the STCs (available through the Experimental Aircraft
Association [EAA] and Petersen Aviation) approves the use of autogas
spiked with alcohol, and it is becoming harder to find the untainted
gas. No longer can you fill up a 5-gallon can at the local gas station
and dump it into your airplane. AirNav lists 199 FBOs that carry mogas
that should be untainted. There also are test kits available from EAA
and Petersen that allow users to test whether the fuel is spiked.
Although the potential to save a lot of money lies in the use of
autogas, the downsides should be carefully researched.

Dick Wampach SR108

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Drew



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[Joe Ronco]

I did some research on material compatibility with E-10 gasohol (auto gas
with 10% ethanol). Check pages 37 and 38 in the report on the link below:



http://www.calcupa.net/conference/2007/ ... ls1%20.pdf



I also contacted Goodyear about the compatibility of the red Ortac hose,
that MAM supplied with my kit 279R, with E-10 and this was their reply:



"The answer on Ortac is no. this hose was not designed as a fuel/gas hose,
especially handling E-10. Suggest a hose that is rated for gas, like a 30R1
or 30R7. Be careful with E-10, long term effects on rubber is still
uncertain. You should contact the manufacturer of the engine".



Here is a link for 30R7:



http://www.goodyearep.com/productsdetai ... px?id=6088



Hope this helps.



Joe Ronco



279R



-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Mike
Kimball
Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 2:46 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Auto / Mo Gas



I haven't looked into this for my engine either and there's only a few of us

so probably not too much interest, but I'm thinking my Chevy V8 installation

is going to be more likely to be OK with ethanol. I'll have to find out if

there's anything in the Holley carb, electric fuel pumps, etc. to worry

about.



Mike

044SR



-----Original Message-----

From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of

bransom@dcsol.com

Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2008 8:27 PM

To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com

Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Auto / Mo Gas



For now I still consider myself fairly naive, and perhaps a little

frustrated too, on this subject. Even this AOPA excerpt does little to

enlighten. For example, it mentions nothing of ethanol increasing the

chance of carb icing. As for possible damage it mentions some things that

as far as I'm concerned, if I can build an airplane I sure as heck ought to

be able to find solutions to a few gaskets and o-rings, even if considering

them replaceable for the savings in gas $. Surely by now someone flying

has done as the article suggests and 'carefully researched' the downsides.



-Ben

In the past much discussion about alternate fuels has been an issue on

this web page. Perhaps the following will help in the decision to use /

or not - Auto Fuel. Please note the statements on alcohol.

Excerpt from AOPA Online

September 2006 Volume 49 / Number 9

Facing Down Fuel Costs

How to ease the high price of avgas

By PETER A. BEDELL

Autogas STCs. For some time autogas, or "mogas," has been successfully

used as an alternative fuel for airplanes powered by low-compression

engines via the approval of a supplemental type certificate (STC).

Autogas can be obtained for a fraction of the cost of avgas, but its use

is not without controversy. Since the STCs were obtained for a number of

airplanes to use autogas, the formulation of the fuel has changed - a

lot. Today, there are higher concentrations of alcohol (ethanol) in

automotive fuels that are detrimental to rubber parts of an airplane's

fuel system (such as fuel cells, gaskets, and O-rings). In addition,

neither of the STCs (available through the Experimental Aircraft

Association [EAA] and Petersen Aviation) approves the use of autogas

spiked with alcohol, and it is becoming harder to find the untainted

gas. No longer can you fill up a 5-gallon can at the local gas station

and dump it into your airplane. AirNav lists 199 FBOs that carry mogas

that should be untainted. There also are test kits available from EAA

and Petersen that allow users to test whether the fuel is spiked.

Although the potential to save a lot of money lies in the use of

autogas, the downsides should be carefully researched.

Dick Wampach SR108

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[Ken]

Since ethanol is not allowed by any mogas STC there is little reason for
AOPA to mention it. Everybody knows to keep it out of airplanes do they
not?

Proseal is supposed to be good for up to 10% ethanol but since moisture
will separate the alcohol, the separated alcohol will destroy the bottom
of the tank, corrode the tank and also any aluminum fuel components such
as a carb. The engine will quit if significant slugs of that gets into
the carb. I've seen ethanol separate out of fresh gas overnight while
sitting in a carb, which made the engine impossible to start.

Ethanol is UNnsuitable for any unsealed fuel tank or engine IMO. In
winter it will separate in a couple of days in an unsealed fuel tank
here near Toronto where it is often humid. It is not a significant
problem with sealed systems such as fuel injected automobiles with
materials designed for it, however it does lean the engine and reduce
mileage. Interestingly the little 2007 Toyota my son recently rented
specified 5% max and you can't buy regular fuel with only 5% in the city
that he inhabits.

If you can not get non-oxygenated mogas, I'd suggest it is worth paying
for avgas and the resultant maintenance headache and environmental
pollution that goes along with it. I go out of my way to support
airports that sell mogas. Another source is marine fuel but I test
everything now.

On ortac hose - I replaced it all with automotive fuel hose. 30R7 for
low pressure, 30R9 for fuel injecton. Don't know if it is really better
but at least I know what I'm dealing with.

I prefer viton o-rings in my mogas fuel system but they are not as good
at handling very cold weather.

Ken


bransom@dcsol.com wrote:

For now I still consider myself fairly naive, and perhaps a little
frustrated too, on this subject. Even this AOPA excerpt does little to
enlighten. For example, it mentions nothing of ethanol increasing the
chance of carb icing. As for possible damage it mentions some things that
as far as I'm concerned, if I can build an airplane I sure as heck ought to
be able to find solutions to a few gaskets and o-rings, even if considering
them replaceable for the savings in gas $. Surely by now someone flying
has done as the article suggests and 'carefully researched' the downsides.

-Ben

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[Ken]

Apparently you should also refresh the mogas frequently during the test,
especially if not well sealed. Some even say you should do the test with
mogas from different sources and different seasons. FWIW the only clear
tubing that I found permanently resistant to gas is teflon.
Ken

Drew Dalgleish wrote:

I'd suggest rivetting up a couple pieces with pro-seal between and putting
it in a jar of mogas with ethanol for a month or so. I haven't tried it but
I don't think you'll be happy with the results. I had very good results
burning mogas with my 0-290 but when I bought my new engine I went with
160hp cuz I figured the mogas party was pretty much over.
Oh and while you're at it throw in a chunk of whatever kind of tubing you
plan to use for a sight guage.

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