Other Rebel mods

[Legeorgen]

Bob,

Thanks for the input. I have noticed how the panel under the door sill
flexes, when I step on it, climbing in and out of the plane while working on
it.

I've seen ingress and egress handles on the top wing spar carry thru on some
Rebels. Is it OK to drill holes in the carry thru? Is this the extrusion you
are talking about?

I was confused with Joel's explanation of his tail rap doubler. Does his
doubler look like quarter rounds from the side? maybe this mod is better
described in the new CD manual I bought but have not received yet?

Blue skies and tail winds.
Bruce G 357 R
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[Bob Patterson]

Hi Bruce !

That panel (FUS-26) does balloon over time. We've never had a
report of cracks there, but it seems like a good idea to double up on
it BEFORE there was a problem. There is a triangular panel behind &
above it that also, on some Rebels, looks like it could be thicker...

The handles being used up here are very large (6 or 8") drawer
pulls, and have 2 rivets (3/16") at each end holding them. They are centered
on the front spar carrythrough, with the holes only on the back surface.
It is NOT a good idea to put holes right through this structure, as
we see on some Rebels - to run wiring through, at the top. The "cage"
around the cockpit is VERY important to the structural safety, and
holes right through it are probably "A BAD IDEA"(tm) ! :-)

That said, I guess <I> find the holes for the handle rivets
to be an acceptable mod., as it prevents other damage - say, from
people grabbing the throttle or the bottom of the panel to haul
themselves in ! (Also, the factory have installed these handles
on at least 2 of their own demonstrators ...)

You're not the only one confused !!! :-) The tail wrap
doubler is around FUS-30, and could, in fact, be just ANOTHER FUS-30,
over top of the original. Here, they are usually trimmed back a bit at
the front top, to save a bit of weight. This gives them a triangular
appearance from the side. They go right up the rudder post to the stab,
and are often trimmed on a line from the rudder post/stab junction to
a point about 2" in front of the front tailspring bolt, wrapping around
under the bottom of the fuse.

You won't find this mod (or several of the others) in ANY
manual - these are just things we've adapted as "standards" here in
Ontario, based on the feedback & experiences of many hundreds of
hours of hard field use (actually, closer to 2,000 hours in total ...)
(One builder has over 800 hours on amphibs alone !!)

We'll try to pass these along as we remember them....

Keep building - it IS worth it !!

.....bobp

---------------------------------orig.-------------------------------------
At 10:51 PM 10/2/00 EDT, you wrote:

Bob,

Thanks for the input. I have noticed how the panel under the door sill
flexes, when I step on it, climbing in and out of the plane while working on
it.

I've seen ingress and egress handles on the top wing spar carry thru on some
Rebels. Is it OK to drill holes in the carry thru? Is this the extrusion you
are talking about?

I was confused with Joel's explanation of his tail rap doubler. Does his
doubler look like quarter rounds from the side? maybe this mod is better
described in the new CD manual I bought but have not received yet?

Blue skies and tail winds.
Bruce G 357 R
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[Legeorgen]

Bob,

Thanks for the lengthy responses to my questions. Without pictures a lot of
words must take their place to create a clear picture in ones head. I gather
there is no one way to rap fus 30 but the idea is to rap as much of the
bulkhead as possible and spring bolt.

I will install the handles. Speaking of handles, the kit came with what looks
like an after market spring loaded maneuvering handle that spans the fuselage
just aft of bulkhead E (?). It fit inside the fuselage and must be pulled out
and twisted to be locked, then pulled back in by a spring. It look well made
except the allen screw that holds the aluminum tube that houses the handles
needs to be relocated 180% so you can put a wrench in it after the whole
thing is riveted in place. The bulkhead prevents inserting the wrench in its
present position. Have you seen these handles and what's your opinion of them?

Bruce G 357 R

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[Walter Klatt]

I have what I think is the perfect ground handling device for my Rebel. I got it from
MAM, actually, and it works great with their tailwheel. It is just a long bent tube with
the two ends flattened and drilled out and cut-off bolts in place. The two bolt ends then
stick into the axle and the camber of the bent tube keeps it together as you push or pull
your plane. I added some bungee cord to the tail wheel end, too, just so the bolt ends
don't slip out of the axle when you don't want them to. Steering is easy and precise, as
you turn the tail wheel while you are moving it.

This would be very easy to build. Not sure if my description made sense to anyone, but
can draw a picture if anyone wants it.

BTW, I should mention that I use the MAM stock tail wheel with my Rebel, which I have
heard a lot of people criticize. I did the turn-release mod, and it works absolutely
great for me. I don't use their tail spring, though. I use one from Aircraft Spruce which
is for the Aeronica, which also seems to work really fine. Unlike a lot of other people
around these parts, I have never had a problem with squirrelly ground handling or any
tail wheel woes.

Bob Patterson wrote:

I think the ideal ground handling device would be a long handle
with an attachment that clipped onto the tailspring, and a handle on
the end. This would give you a long arm to raise the tail & steer
the airplane, while putting loads only on the spring, in a direction
it is designed for .... just another HO.... :-) Have seen
similar gadgets with wheels underneath - good idea, but a bit large
to carry around ....

.....bobp

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[Bob Patterson]

Bruce,

The big problem area on FUS-30 is the sides, just forward of
the rudder post. I have seen several Rebels with vertical cracks of
1" or more, parallel to the post, about 1/4" forward, caused by
heavy sideloads from pushing the tail against a non-swivelling
tailwheel, or one stuck in snow or mud !

Keith Kinden, at Montana Float Company, makes one of those
ground handling handles similar to the one you describe. I'm surprised
it came with the kit (someone slipped up, I suppose ....) - lucky you !
These handles are "A GOOD THING"(tm), in that they stop people from
trying to move the Rebel by grabbing onto the STABILIZER ! This is
an absolute NO-NO !!!!!! It is NEVER a good idea to move an aircraft
on the ground by pushing on control surfaces, but it is ESPECIALLY
bad on the Rebel. Just because you see folks doing this all the time
with Cessnas DOESN'T mean it's a good idea !!! It is dangerous !!!
(MHO !!!) I have seen stabilizers and vertical fins with cracked spars,
broken attach brackets, and bent bolts - one was found AFTER a student
had returned from trying to do spins !!! (The damage was caused by
ground handling, NOT the spins - but just think if the stabilizer
had folded up during spin recovery !!!) The only good spot to
push a Rebel is on the wing struts, near the ends....

I think the ideal ground handling device would be a long handle
with an attachment that clipped onto the tailspring, and a handle on
the end. This would give you a long arm to raise the tail & steer
the airplane, while putting loads only on the spring, in a direction
it is designed for .... just another HO.... :-) Have seen
similar gadgets with wheels underneath - good idea, but a bit large
to carry around ....

.....bobp

------------------------------orig.---------------------------------------
At 11:52 PM 10/3/00 EDT, you wrote:

Bob,

Thanks for the lengthy responses to my questions. Without pictures a lot of
words must take their place to create a clear picture in ones head. I gather
there is no one way to rap fus 30 but the idea is to rap as much of the
bulkhead as possible and spring bolt.

I will install the handles. Speaking of handles, the kit came with what looks
like an after market spring loaded maneuvering handle that spans the fuselage
just aft of bulkhead E (?). It fit inside the fuselage and must be pulled out
and twisted to be locked, then pulled back in by a spring. It look well made
except the allen screw that holds the aluminum tube that houses the handles
needs to be relocated 180% so you can put a wrench in it after the whole
thing is riveted in place. The bulkhead prevents inserting the wrench in its
present position. Have you seen these handles and what's your opinion of them?

Bruce G 357 R

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[Drew and Jan]

I keep a rope with a loop in one end in my plane all the time and if I need
to back up from the tail I just lasso the tailspring and pull the plane
that way.
Drew Dalgleish


At 05:39 PM 10/4/00 -0400, you wrote:

Bruce,

The big problem area on FUS-30 is the sides, just forward of
the rudder post. I have seen several Rebels with vertical cracks of
1" or more, parallel to the post, about 1/4" forward, caused by
heavy sideloads from pushing the tail against a non-swivelling
tailwheel, or one stuck in snow or mud !

Keith Kinden, at Montana Float Company, makes one of those
ground handling handles similar to the one you describe. I'm surprised
it came with the kit (someone slipped up, I suppose ....) - lucky you !
These handles are "A GOOD THING"(tm), in that they stop people from
trying to move the Rebel by grabbing onto the STABILIZER ! This is
an absolute NO-NO !!!!!! It is NEVER a good idea to move an aircraft
on the ground by pushing on control surfaces, but it is ESPECIALLY
bad on the Rebel. Just because you see folks doing this all the time
with Cessnas DOESN'T mean it's a good idea !!! It is dangerous !!!
(MHO !!!) I have seen stabilizers and vertical fins with cracked spars,
broken attach brackets, and bent bolts - one was found AFTER a student
had returned from trying to do spins !!! (The damage was caused by
ground handling, NOT the spins - but just think if the stabilizer
had folded up during spin recovery !!!) The only good spot to
push a Rebel is on the wing struts, near the ends....

I think the ideal ground handling device would be a long handle
with an attachment that clipped onto the tailspring, and a handle on
the end. This would give you a long arm to raise the tail & steer
the airplane, while putting loads only on the spring, in a direction
it is designed for .... just another HO.... :-) Have seen
similar gadgets with wheels underneath - good idea, but a bit large
to carry around ....

.....bobp

------------------------------orig.---------------------------------------
At 11:52 PM 10/3/00 EDT, you wrote:

Bob,

Thanks for the lengthy responses to my questions. Without pictures a lot of
words must take their place to create a clear picture in ones head. I

gather

there is no one way to rap fus 30 but the idea is to rap as much of the
bulkhead as possible and spring bolt.

I will install the handles. Speaking of handles, the kit came with what

looks

like an after market spring loaded maneuvering handle that spans the

fuselage

just aft of bulkhead E (?). It fit inside the fuselage and must be pulled

out

and twisted to be locked, then pulled back in by a spring. It look well

made

except the allen screw that holds the aluminum tube that houses the handles
needs to be relocated 180% so you can put a wrench in it after the whole
thing is riveted in place. The bulkhead prevents inserting the wrench in

its

present position. Have you seen these handles and what's your opinion of

them?

Bruce G 357 R

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[Legeorgen]

Bob

The handle came in the boxes of stuff I picked up with the half complete kit
I purchases from Ken Hazlett of Independence Oregon. I assumed he bought it
separately. I installed it already and it works very well.

I use a rope around my Scott tail wheel to pull the Kitfox around and it
steers it quit nicely, once you get used to its backward input (like backing
up a trailer). Pull the rope left and tail pivots right. And it was free and
came pre-assembled. It doesn't get any better than that!

I must drill out all the rivets on fus 30 around the most aft bulkhead to
install the doubler, as well as all around the spar. This part of the
fuselage is complete already. The lower rivets on the saddle bracket look
like they are stainless steel. Not only are they hard to drill out but what
about dissimilar metal corrosion? I thought aluminum and stainless steel
mixing was a no no.

Bruce G 357 R
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[rebelair]

Hi Bruce

I installed Keith Kinden's tail handles & I use it every time I fly. Great
device & great directions for installing. Also, you when you leave both
tubes extended in flight, it improves your sink rate when your sideslipping
from base to final etc.

Brian #328R

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Patterson [mailto:bob.patterson@canrem.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2000 5:39 PM
To: Murphy Rebel Builders List
Subject: Re: Other Rebel mods



Bruce,

The big problem area on FUS-30 is the sides, just forward of
the rudder post. I have seen several Rebels with vertical cracks of
1" or more, parallel to the post, about 1/4" forward, caused by
heavy sideloads from pushing the tail against a non-swivelling
tailwheel, or one stuck in snow or mud !

Keith Kinden, at Montana Float Company, makes one of those
ground handling handles similar to the one you describe. I'm surprised
it came with the kit (someone slipped up, I suppose ....) - lucky you !
These handles are "A GOOD THING"(tm), in that they stop people from
trying to move the Rebel by grabbing onto the STABILIZER ! This is
an absolute NO-NO !!!!!! It is NEVER a good idea to move an aircraft
on the ground by pushing on control surfaces, but it is ESPECIALLY
bad on the Rebel. Just because you see folks doing this all the time
with Cessnas DOESN'T mean it's a good idea !!! It is dangerous !!!
(MHO !!!) I have seen stabilizers and vertical fins with cracked spars,
broken attach brackets, and bent bolts - one was found AFTER a student
had returned from trying to do spins !!! (The damage was caused by
ground handling, NOT the spins - but just think if the stabilizer
had folded up during spin recovery !!!) The only good spot to
push a Rebel is on the wing struts, near the ends....

I think the ideal ground handling device would be a long handle
with an attachment that clipped onto the tailspring, and a handle on
the end. This would give you a long arm to raise the tail & steer
the airplane, while putting loads only on the spring, in a direction
it is designed for .... just another HO.... :-) Have seen
similar gadgets with wheels underneath - good idea, but a bit large
to carry around ....

.....bobp

------------------------------orig.---------------------------------------
At 11:52 PM 10/3/00 EDT, you wrote:

Bob,

Thanks for the lengthy responses to my questions. Without pictures a lot of
words must take their place to create a clear picture in ones head. I

gather

there is no one way to rap fus 30 but the idea is to rap as much of the
bulkhead as possible and spring bolt.

I will install the handles. Speaking of handles, the kit came with what

looks

like an after market spring loaded maneuvering handle that spans the

fuselage

just aft of bulkhead E (?). It fit inside the fuselage and must be pulled

out

and twisted to be locked, then pulled back in by a spring. It look well

made

except the allen screw that holds the aluminum tube that houses the handles
needs to be relocated 180% so you can put a wrench in it after the whole
thing is riveted in place. The bulkhead prevents inserting the wrench in

its

present position. Have you seen these handles and what's your opinion of

them?

Bruce G 357 R

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[Legeorgen]

Brian,

Thanks for the tip off, now I know who invented the handles (Keith Kindon).
They are rather nice and I like them a lot. I'm used to a handle on my Kitfox
and was wondering how I was going to manage without them. Did you have to
re-tap the allen head so you could reach them with a wrench after
installation?

Bruce G 357R
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[Bob Patterson]

Bruce,

You might want to check the manual to be sure these ARE the
correct rivets.... MAM <DOES> use stainless rivets in certain
high-load positions - the secret is to make sure they are dipped
in epoxy chromate before assembly. This should prevent contact,
water entry, and corrosion.

.....bobp

-------------------------------------orig.-------------------------------------
At 11:07 PM 10/4/00 EDT, you wrote:

Bob

The handle came in the boxes of stuff I picked up with the half complete kit
I purchases from Ken Hazlett of Independence Oregon. I assumed he bought it
separately. I installed it already and it works very well.

I use a rope around my Scott tail wheel to pull the Kitfox around and it
steers it quit nicely, once you get used to its backward input (like backing
up a trailer). Pull the rope left and tail pivots right. And it was free and
came pre-assembled. It doesn't get any better than that!

I must drill out all the rivets on fus 30 around the most aft bulkhead to
install the doubler, as well as all around the spar. This part of the
fuselage is complete already. The lower rivets on the saddle bracket look
like they are stainless steel. Not only are they hard to drill out but what
about dissimilar metal corrosion? I thought aluminum and stainless steel
mixing was a no no.

Bruce G 357 R
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[rebelair]

Hi Bruce

The handles are not too far down the fuselage that I cannot reach them. I
am just over 6 feet tall & over 200 lbs. but can still reach it OK - even
with the battery down there now - though it is painful crawling over the
battery.

I kept the allen screw on top so that it could easily be reached. Just keep
the tubes clean that they retract & extend and you will have no problems. I
am not sure how you could manipulate the aircraft by yourself without them.
When you are trying to back the REbel back into the hangar by just pushing
on the struts, it is surprising how fast the tail swings the opposite way
and you easily bang into something. And, as I have said before, Keith
writes the best instructions on the entire airplane.

Regards

Brian #328R

-----Original Message-----
From: Legeorgen@cs.com [mailto:Legeorgen@cs.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2000 1:41 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Other Rebel mods


Brian,

Thanks for the tip off, now I know who invented the handles (Keith Kindon).
They are rather nice and I like them a lot. I'm used to a handle on my
Kitfox
and was wondering how I was going to manage without them. Did you have to
re-tap the allen head so you could reach them with a wrench after
installation?

Bruce G 357R
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[K. Oliver]

So, how would one go about getting a set of these handles?
I think they would be a welcomed addition on my Elite

Keith
Elite #654

-----Original Message-----
From: rebelair [mailto:rebelair@idirect.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2000 10:56 PM
To: Murphy Rebel Builders List
Subject: RE: Other Rebel mods

Hi Bruce

The handles are not too far down the fuselage that I cannot reach them. I
am just over 6 feet tall & over 200 lbs. but can still reach it OK - even
with the battery down there now - though it is painful crawling over the
battery.

I kept the allen screw on top so that it could easily be reached. Just keep
the tubes clean that they retract & extend and you will have no problems. I
am not sure how you could manipulate the aircraft by yourself without them.
When you are trying to back the REbel back into the hangar by just pushing
on the struts, it is surprising how fast the tail swings the opposite way
and you easily bang into something. And, as I have said before, Keith
writes the best instructions on the entire airplane.

Regards

Brian #328R

-----Original Message-----
From: Legeorgen@cs.com [mailto:Legeorgen@cs.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2000 1:41 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Other Rebel mods


Brian,

Thanks for the tip off, now I know who invented the handles (Keith Kindon).
They are rather nice and I like them a lot. I'm used to a handle on my
Kitfox
and was wondering how I was going to manage without them. Did you have to
re-tap the allen head so you could reach them with a wrench after
installation?

Bruce G 357R
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[K. Oliver]

It Is

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Patterson [mailto:bob.patterson@canrem.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2000 11:34 PM
To: Murphy Rebel Builders List
Subject: RE: Other Rebel mods


You can still order them from Keith Kinden, at Montana Float
Company, in Libby, MT, as far as I know . Of course, they'd only
be useful IF your Elite is a taildragger .... :-)

Will try to dig up a phone number, if you want.

.....bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------------------
At 11:19 PM 10/5/00 -0400, you wrote:

So, how would one go about getting a set of these handles?
I think they would be a welcomed addition on my Elite

Keith
Elite #654

-----Original Message-----
From: rebelair [mailto:rebelair@idirect.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2000 10:56 PM
To: Murphy Rebel Builders List
Subject: RE: Other Rebel mods

Hi Bruce

The handles are not too far down the fuselage that I cannot reach them. I
am just over 6 feet tall & over 200 lbs. but can still reach it OK - even
with the battery down there now - though it is painful crawling over the
battery.

I kept the allen screw on top so that it could easily be reached. Just

keep

the tubes clean that they retract & extend and you will have no problems.

I

am not sure how you could manipulate the aircraft by yourself without them.
When you are trying to back the REbel back into the hangar by just pushing
on the struts, it is surprising how fast the tail swings the opposite way
and you easily bang into something. And, as I have said before, Keith
writes the best instructions on the entire airplane.

Regards

Brian #328R

-----Original Message-----
From: Legeorgen@cs.com [mailto:Legeorgen@cs.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2000 1:41 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Other Rebel mods


Brian,

Thanks for the tip off, now I know who invented the handles (Keith Kindon).
They are rather nice and I like them a lot. I'm used to a handle on my
Kitfox
and was wondering how I was going to manage without them. Did you have to
re-tap the allen head so you could reach them with a wrench after
installation?

Bruce G 357R
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[Bob Patterson]

You can still order them from Keith Kinden, at Montana Float
Company, in Libby, MT, as far as I know . Of course, they'd only
be useful IF your Elite is a taildragger .... :-)

Will try to dig up a phone number, if you want.

.....bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------------------
At 11:19 PM 10/5/00 -0400, you wrote:

So, how would one go about getting a set of these handles?
I think they would be a welcomed addition on my Elite

Keith
Elite #654

-----Original Message-----
From: rebelair [mailto:rebelair@idirect.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2000 10:56 PM
To: Murphy Rebel Builders List
Subject: RE: Other Rebel mods

Hi Bruce

The handles are not too far down the fuselage that I cannot reach them. I
am just over 6 feet tall & over 200 lbs. but can still reach it OK - even
with the battery down there now - though it is painful crawling over the
battery.

I kept the allen screw on top so that it could easily be reached. Just keep
the tubes clean that they retract & extend and you will have no problems. I
am not sure how you could manipulate the aircraft by yourself without them.
When you are trying to back the REbel back into the hangar by just pushing
on the struts, it is surprising how fast the tail swings the opposite way
and you easily bang into something. And, as I have said before, Keith
writes the best instructions on the entire airplane.

Regards

Brian #328R

-----Original Message-----
From: Legeorgen@cs.com [mailto:Legeorgen@cs.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2000 1:41 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Other Rebel mods


Brian,

Thanks for the tip off, now I know who invented the handles (Keith Kindon).
They are rather nice and I like them a lot. I'm used to a handle on my
Kitfox
and was wondering how I was going to manage without them. Did you have to
re-tap the allen head so you could reach them with a wrench after
installation?

Bruce G 357R
*---------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------*
The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/lists/default.htm
*---------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------*

*---------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------*
The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/lists/default.htm
*---------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------*

*--------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------*

The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/lists/default.htm
*--------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------*

*-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------*
The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/lists/default.htm
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[Legeorgen]

Keith,

My handles came with the second hand kit I purchased but Brian # 328R at
rebelair@direct.com seems to know the guy who makes them (Keith Kinden).

Bruce G #357R
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