SR engines?

[Mike Davis]

David,

You might want to look at www.crossflow.com They have the Suburu SVX six
cylinder in 250/300/320 HP configurations, and they produce a firewall
forward package. Not cheap, but they look to have a good product. I'm
sure others will chime in here... at least I hope so!

Mike

At 09:15 AM 10/4/00 -0400, you wrote:

A question for those that are building Super Rebels.

What engine are you planning to use?

I've got a fast built kit on order, and should be here on (Fill in the
date.)

Currently, I'm looking at two different engines.

First is the F6A-350C1R Franklin engine. It's 364lbs will all
accessories, less prop and exhaust. Pluses: As far as I can tell,
it's weight is very close to a Lycoming IO-360, produces 20HP
more and can be bought new for the price of a rebuilt IO-360. It's
lower weight means more payload and should have a fuel burn
similar to the IO, meaning more range than a larger engine.

Minuses: 220HP might be a bit anemic for the SR, and with a 10:1
compression ratio, 100LL is a must, even though availability in the
future might be problematic.

The other is the Russian radial M14P. To be frank, that's more
engine than I want, but there are advantages. Minuses: It's heavy.
To the same equipment level as the Franklin above, I figure it's 500-
510lbs, not counting it probably having a heavier exhaust system. It
probably needs a heavier prop too. That's at least 150lbs less for
payload. (If the gross increase that MAM announced is only for the
M14P version, that gets offset.) At full power, the thing is sucking
down almost 42 GPH. What sort of range will it have?

Pluses: 360HP. (drool) I've read that it can run on mogas, so even
with a higher fuel burn, it might be cheaper to operate. Prices are
similar to the Franklin. Turned back to economy cruise (what they
call Cruise II) of 144HP, it should only consume about 11 GPH. At
the best BSFC, (Cruise I) it's putting out 180HP at 15 GPH. These
numbers are from the maintenance manual, so it's hard to say
what real world numbers would be.

Besides, radials look cool. :)

Any comments?

---
David Parrish











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[David M Parrish]

A question for those that are building Super Rebels.

What engine are you planning to use?

I've got a fast built kit on order, and should be here on (Fill in the
date.)

Currently, I'm looking at two different engines.

First is the F6A-350C1R Franklin engine. It's 364lbs will all
accessories, less prop and exhaust. Pluses: As far as I can tell,
it's weight is very close to a Lycoming IO-360, produces 20HP
more and can be bought new for the price of a rebuilt IO-360. It's
lower weight means more payload and should have a fuel burn
similar to the IO, meaning more range than a larger engine.

Minuses: 220HP might be a bit anemic for the SR, and with a 10:1
compression ratio, 100LL is a must, even though availability in the
future might be problematic.

The other is the Russian radial M14P. To be frank, that's more
engine than I want, but there are advantages. Minuses: It's heavy.
To the same equipment level as the Franklin above, I figure it's 500-
510lbs, not counting it probably having a heavier exhaust system. It
probably needs a heavier prop too. That's at least 150lbs less for
payload. (If the gross increase that MAM announced is only for the
M14P version, that gets offset.) At full power, the thing is sucking
down almost 42 GPH. What sort of range will it have?

Pluses: 360HP. (drool) I've read that it can run on mogas, so even
with a higher fuel burn, it might be cheaper to operate. Prices are
similar to the Franklin. Turned back to economy cruise (what they
call Cruise II) of 144HP, it should only consume about 11 GPH. At
the best BSFC, (Cruise I) it's putting out 180HP at 15 GPH. These
numbers are from the maintenance manual, so it's hard to say
what real world numbers would be.

Besides, radials look cool. :)

Any comments?

---
David Parrish











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[David M Parrish]

On 4 Oct 2000, at 6:21, Mike Davis wrote:

You might want to look at www.crossflow.com They have the Suburu SVX
six cylinder in 250/300/320 HP configurations, and they produce a

Actually, I have _two_ SVX engines setting in my shop, one of
which will go in the Velocity I'm building. The SR is a joint project
and my partner is rather cool to auto conversions. :-/

---
David Parrish

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[Bob Patterson]

David,

I'm with Mike ! I'd have a good look at the 6 cyl. Subaru -
it WAS originally an aircraft engine, converted to automotive when
a government contract fell through.... so your partner can't object
on those grounds ! ;-)

We've had a VERY hard time trying to deal with Franklin - spare
parts might be a problem .... There's not a lot of history to go on
as to what might fail. <IF> we had been able to negotiate a steady
supply of engines, Murphy would have offered the 220 Franklin as
part of a complete package, as is now being contemplated with the
M14-P.

I wouldn't worry about the 220 being anemic - the SR was designed
for even a 180 hp., and I <personally> think that a 180 hp. SR, with
tricycle gear and a fixed-pitch prop, would be a HECK of a GOOD
UPGRADE from a C-172 !!! ;-) FWIW, one flight school in Quebec
said they'd take 20 of them in that configuration, IF we could find
a way that they could use them legally for flight training !!

M14-P - wellllll, lots of people are really excited about this
engine, and it DOES look sexy - BUT .... TBO is only 800 hours, can
you get parts - and someone to work on it ?? These engines are cheap
right now, because they are military surplus - I hear that, when NEW
production starts, they will sell for about $35,000 US ...
(loses a lot of appeal, doesn't it ??!!!)
And guess what THAT will do to parts prices ....

Put a LOT of thought into YOUR kind of flying - what will YOUR
typical flight profile look like ??? The ONLY place for the M14-P
is on floats (it would be too easy, even with all that drag, to
exceed redline on wheels). Most float flights are takeoff, short flight
to nice lake, and landing - or several local flights giving rides to
all the neighbours.... Mostly high power settings, and LOTS of fuel,
because of drag ....

If you want to go cross country, and you want it finished and
flying quickly - as with the other Murphy kits - go with the factory
mounts and cowling and the Lycoming O-540. Most of the time, with the
IO-540, I could get the SR to cruise at 22 squared at 13.4 GPH - much
better than the 30.1 GPH on takeoff !! This gave almost 120 KT - not
a bad economy cruise !!! :-) (24 squared gave about 135 KT, and 16.5 gph.)
(For some reason, the original O-540 was slightly faster than this IO-540)
Managed to put a bit over 30 hours flying the SR across Canada this
summer :-) :-)))) ...... It sure changes your cross-country flight
planning !! ;-)

......bobp

------------------------------orig.-------------------------------------
At 09:15 AM 10/4/00 -0400, you wrote:

A question for those that are building Super Rebels.

What engine are you planning to use?

I've got a fast built kit on order, and should be here on (Fill in the
date.)

Currently, I'm looking at two different engines.

First is the F6A-350C1R Franklin engine. It's 364lbs will all
accessories, less prop and exhaust. Pluses: As far as I can tell,
it's weight is very close to a Lycoming IO-360, produces 20HP
more and can be bought new for the price of a rebuilt IO-360. It's
lower weight means more payload and should have a fuel burn
similar to the IO, meaning more range than a larger engine.

Minuses: 220HP might be a bit anemic for the SR, and with a 10:1
compression ratio, 100LL is a must, even though availability in the
future might be problematic.

The other is the Russian radial M14P. To be frank, that's more
engine than I want, but there are advantages. Minuses: It's heavy.
To the same equipment level as the Franklin above, I figure it's 500-
510lbs, not counting it probably having a heavier exhaust system. It
probably needs a heavier prop too. That's at least 150lbs less for
payload. (If the gross increase that MAM announced is only for the
M14P version, that gets offset.) At full power, the thing is sucking
down almost 42 GPH. What sort of range will it have?

Pluses: 360HP. (drool) I've read that it can run on mogas, so even
with a higher fuel burn, it might be cheaper to operate. Prices are
similar to the Franklin. Turned back to economy cruise (what they
call Cruise II) of 144HP, it should only consume about 11 GPH. At
the best BSFC, (Cruise I) it's putting out 180HP at 15 GPH. These
numbers are from the maintenance manual, so it's hard to say
what real world numbers would be.

Besides, radials look cool. :)

Any comments?

---
David Parrish











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[Bob Patterson]

Right on, Mike !!

<I> would go with an almost-stock 250 hp (just polished &
ported), with the Marcotte re-drive from Quebec (it's MASSIVE !).
This would mean you could use off-the-shelf parts from any dealer,
and the engine wouldn't have any more load than originally designed.
(again, just <MY> personal preference - the factory still does not
favour auto conversions ...) (Can't blame them, until we get a bunch
of them flying ...)

....bobp

--------------------------------orig.--------------------------------
At 06:21 AM 10/4/00 -0800, you wrote:

David,

You might want to look at www.crossflow.com They have the Suburu SVX six
cylinder in 250/300/320 HP configurations, and they produce a firewall
forward package. Not cheap, but they look to have a good product. I'm
sure others will chime in here... at least I hope so!

Mike

At 09:15 AM 10/4/00 -0400, you wrote:

A question for those that are building Super Rebels.

What engine are you planning to use?

I've got a fast built kit on order, and should be here on (Fill in the
date.)

Currently, I'm looking at two different engines.

First is the F6A-350C1R Franklin engine. It's 364lbs will all
accessories, less prop and exhaust. Pluses: As far as I can tell,
it's weight is very close to a Lycoming IO-360, produces 20HP
more and can be bought new for the price of a rebuilt IO-360. It's
lower weight means more payload and should have a fuel burn
similar to the IO, meaning more range than a larger engine.

Minuses: 220HP might be a bit anemic for the SR, and with a 10:1
compression ratio, 100LL is a must, even though availability in the
future might be problematic.

The other is the Russian radial M14P. To be frank, that's more
engine than I want, but there are advantages. Minuses: It's heavy.
To the same equipment level as the Franklin above, I figure it's 500-
510lbs, not counting it probably having a heavier exhaust system. It
probably needs a heavier prop too. That's at least 150lbs less for
payload. (If the gross increase that MAM announced is only for the
M14P version, that gets offset.) At full power, the thing is sucking
down almost 42 GPH. What sort of range will it have?

Pluses: 360HP. (drool) I've read that it can run on mogas, so even
with a higher fuel burn, it might be cheaper to operate. Prices are
similar to the Franklin. Turned back to economy cruise (what they
call Cruise II) of 144HP, it should only consume about 11 GPH. At
the best BSFC, (Cruise I) it's putting out 180HP at 15 GPH. These
numbers are from the maintenance manual, so it's hard to say
what real world numbers would be.

Besides, radials look cool. :)

Any comments?

---
David Parrish











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[LisaFly99]

In a message dated 10/4/00 5:06:56 PM Central Daylight Time,
bob.patterson@canrem.com writes:

<< I'm with Mike ! I'd have a good look at the 6 cyl. Subaru -
it WAS originally an aircraft engine, converted to automotive when
a government contract fell through.... >>
Bob P.
I know Subaru manufactured a plane but it was powered by a Continental engine.
The four cylinder 1.8 & 2.2 were made for automobiles. I have a 2.2 in my
Rebel it fly's great will climb at 1500 fpm and cruise about 115mph. Need to
tweak the Warp drive prop a little more. The biggest problem with auto
conversions is cooling, getting the radiator system set up right.
Phil&Lisa Smith #460 N414D
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[David M Parrish]

[Bob Patterson]

Hate to splatter answers, but it seems like the best way ....

See below .....

.....bobp

------------------------------orig.-------------------------------------
At 09:00 AM 10/5/00 -0400, you wrote:

On 4 Oct 2000, at 18:05, Bob Patterson wrote:

We've had a VERY hard time trying to deal with Franklin -
spare
parts might be a problem .... There's not a lot of history to go on
as to what might fail. <IF> we had been able to negotiate a steady

I guess when you have language complications plus a company that's only

used to working with comunist bureaucracies instead of rowdy { SEQ CHAPTER
\h \r 1}entrepreneurs, there's bound to be problems. (Plus having to work
through the current bureaucracies at both ends.)

AFAIK, the Polish plant bought the rights to the American Franklin design,

so I suspect they should be very similar to the old US built Franklins.

I do know of at least three companies that are importing Franklins, one of

which belongs to a Velocity builder.

Hopefully, there are enough people buying Franklins and M14P's to keep

production going and improve availability.

engine, and it DOES look sexy - BUT .... TBO is only 800 hours, can

Is that at full rated power? One web page said that the engine used in a
stationary setting, running at 70% has a TBO of 20,000hrs. 360HP is takeoff
power, but what they call 'Normal II' power is only 240HP - and 70% RPM.
Both numbers seem a bit extreme.

[***
I got the 800 hour number from the builder of the ONLY M14-P
powered Super Rebel now flying - he had visited Russia, and presumably
has some good info. As with Continentals & Lycomings, this would be
800 hours of 'normal' operation in the aircraft - per logbooks.
****************

production starts, they will sell for about $35,000 US ... (loses a

Check out www.gesoco.com. According to them, the only plant currently
producing M14P's is in Romania and they've contracted with them to buy
25 new engines a year over five years and they sell them at $19,500US.
The Russian plant closed down in '93 and the Romanian plant is
ISO 9000 certified.

[*****
Sounds good ....

*****************************

typical flight profile look like ??? The ONLY place for the M14-P is
on floats (it would be too easy, even with all that drag, to exceed

Well, there is this island in Belize I've been thinking of retiring too... :)
Seriously, trigear is most likely for quite a while.

[***
There is NO WAY you could use an M14 with TRI GEAR on a Super
Rebel !!! The prop is about NINE FEET !!! <NO> ground clearance !!!

******************

the neighbours.... Mostly high power settings, and LOTS of fuel,
because of drag ....

Is a M14P installation really that much more draggy than with a flat engine?

[******
There would be a LOT more drag, with all those cylinders out
in the breeze, .... but I was thinking of the floats, too ;-)

*****************

If you want to go cross country, and you want it finished and
flying quickly - as with the other Murphy kits - go with the factory
mounts and cowling and the Lycoming O-540. Most of the time, with the

Mounts are already available for the Franklin, since there's a couple of

companies doing STC's for 172's & 175's. Don't know if the mounting pattern
would be compatable though. I don't know the exact engine measurements
either, but a mount might be constructed so the 540 cowling could be used.
[******
While the 540 cowling would likely be close for fitting, any mounts
made for a C-172 would <NOT>. You would have to custom-make your mounts !

******************8

---
David Parrish


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[David M Parrish]

On 5 Oct 2000, at 23:43, Bob Patterson wrote:

I got the 800 hour number from the builder of the ONLY M14-P
powered Super Rebel now flying - he had visited Russia, and presumably

Ouch.

There is NO WAY you could use an M14 with TRI GEAR on a Super
Rebel !!! The prop is about NINE FEET !!! <NO> ground clearance !!!

Sure you could! Of course, it'll sort of look like an airplane sitting
on a bar stool...

There would be a LOT more drag, with all those cylinders out
in the breeze, .... but I was thinking of the floats, too ;-)

I was thinking about the cowling reseach NACA did on radial
engines. Thier cowl actually produced thrust, offsetting some of the
flatplate drag of the engine. Still don't know how this compares to
a well cowled flat engine.

While the 540 cowling would likely be close for fitting, any
mounts
made for a C-172 would <NOT>. You would have to custom-make your
mounts !

Okay.

The Franklin is 25.25H x 31.3W x 37.5L
The O-540A is 24.56H x 33.37W x 37.22L

The O-540 cowl should work, since they're so close in size. One of
the supliers has a premade bedmount for the engine that a mount
can be built on.

Interesting, the Franklin and O-540 are about the same size, but
the Franklin is 80lbs lighter.

---
David Parrish

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[Bob Patterson]

Hi Phil !

I didn't know the Subaru aircraft prototype had a Continental !!
Always thought they had intended the Legacy engines for it ...
learn something new every day ...

Have flown a few Subaru-powered Rebels - REALLY like them !!
They're smooth, quiet, and very fuel-efficient. Using the Murphy 912
cowling can help a lot with radiator placement, although it DOES need
several mods & improvements ! ;-) And you're right - the radiator
seems to be the biggest problem !

Sounds like you're getting GREAT climb !! I've seen over
135 mph, level, in a Suber-powered Rebel, so they WILL scoot !!!
(Actually, I think Dave Bangle <regularly> sees speeds far beyond
what a Lycoming 150 hp. will do ...)


-----------------------------orig.------------------------------------------
At 06:52 PM 10/4/00 EDT, you wrote:

In a message dated 10/4/00 5:06:56 PM Central Daylight Time,
bob.patterson@canrem.com writes:

<< I'm with Mike ! I'd have a good look at the 6 cyl. Subaru -
it WAS originally an aircraft engine, converted to automotive when
a government contract fell through.... >>
Bob P.
I know Subaru manufactured a plane but it was powered by a Continental engine.
The four cylinder 1.8 & 2.2 were made for automobiles. I have a 2.2 in my
Rebel it fly's great will climb at 1500 fpm and cruise about 115mph. Need to
tweak the Warp drive prop a little more. The biggest problem with auto
conversions is cooling, getting the radiator system set up right.
Phil&Lisa Smith #460 N414D
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[Bob Patterson]

Hi David !

Interesting, the Franklin and O-540 are about the same size, but
the Franklin is 80lbs lighter.

THAT <IS> impressive !!! Are these weights inclusive of all
(identical) accessories ??? If so, the lighter weight will really
help !!! (Old 'rule of thumb' -> 100 lb of weight ~= 10 hp. !!)
That would give the Franklin the equivalent of 228 hp ...

.....bobp

---------------------------------orig.-----------------------------------
At 07:53 AM 10/6/00 -0400, you wrote:

On 5 Oct 2000, at 23:43, Bob Patterson wrote:

I got the 800 hour number from the builder of the ONLY M14-P
powered Super Rebel now flying - he had visited Russia, and presumably

Ouch.

There is NO WAY you could use an M14 with TRI GEAR on a Super
Rebel !!! The prop is about NINE FEET !!! <NO> ground clearance !!!

Sure you could! Of course, it'll sort of look like an airplane sitting
on a bar stool...

There would be a LOT more drag, with all those cylinders out
in the breeze, .... but I was thinking of the floats, too ;-)

I was thinking about the cowling reseach NACA did on radial
engines. Thier cowl actually produced thrust, offsetting some of the
flatplate drag of the engine. Still don't know how this compares to
a well cowled flat engine.

While the 540 cowling would likely be close for fitting, any
mounts
made for a C-172 would <NOT>. You would have to custom-make your
mounts !

Okay.

The Franklin is 25.25H x 31.3W x 37.5L
The O-540A is 24.56H x 33.37W x 37.22L

The O-540 cowl should work, since they're so close in size. One of
the supliers has a premade bedmount for the engine that a mount
can be built on.

Interesting, the Franklin and O-540 are about the same size, but
the Franklin is 80lbs lighter.

---
David Parrish

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[rebelair]

Hi Bob

Per your rule of thumb, a 150 HP engine would weigh 1500 lbs. That would
not leave a lot of room for fuel! I must have you rule of thumb a little
mixed up.

Brian #328R

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Patterson [mailto:bob.patterson@canrem.com]
Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2000 10:47 PM
To: Murphy Rebel Builders List
Subject: Re: SR engines?



Hi David !

Interesting, the Franklin and O-540 are about the same size, but
the Franklin is 80lbs lighter.

THAT <IS> impressive !!! Are these weights inclusive of all
(identical) accessories ??? If so, the lighter weight will really
help !!! (Old 'rule of thumb' -> 100 lb of weight ~= 10 hp. !!)
That would give the Franklin the equivalent of 228 hp ...

.....bobp

---------------------------------orig.-----------------------------------
At 07:53 AM 10/6/00 -0400, you wrote:

On 5 Oct 2000, at 23:43, Bob Patterson wrote:

I got the 800 hour number from the builder of the ONLY M14-P
powered Super Rebel now flying - he had visited Russia, and presumably

Ouch.

There is NO WAY you could use an M14 with TRI GEAR on a Super
Rebel !!! The prop is about NINE FEET !!! <NO> ground clearance !!!

Sure you could! Of course, it'll sort of look like an airplane sitting
on a bar stool...

There would be a LOT more drag, with all those cylinders out
in the breeze, .... but I was thinking of the floats, too ;-)

I was thinking about the cowling reseach NACA did on radial
engines. Thier cowl actually produced thrust, offsetting some of the
flatplate drag of the engine. Still don't know how this compares to
a well cowled flat engine.

While the 540 cowling would likely be close for fitting, any
mounts
made for a C-172 would <NOT>. You would have to custom-make your
mounts !

Okay.

The Franklin is 25.25H x 31.3W x 37.5L
The O-540A is 24.56H x 33.37W x 37.22L

The O-540 cowl should work, since they're so close in size. One of
the supliers has a premade bedmount for the engine that a mount
can be built on.

Interesting, the Franklin and O-540 are about the same size, but
the Franklin is 80lbs lighter.

---
David Parrish

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[Bob Patterson]

Ok !! OK !! ;-) It's just an old "guide" - meaning, if you lighten
the aircraft by 100 lb., it will give you approx. the same performance
improvement as adding 10 hp. :-) :-)

I sometimes get my tongue over my eye tooth, and can't see what I'm
saying !! ;-) :-) (Who, me - Wix my Mords ??!! :-) )

That's why I always felt that tossing my old Lycoming O-235C-2C
and installing a Rotax 912-S would probably give me BETTER performance !
The old Lyc. was probably only putting out 100 hp, same as the 912-S,
and the whole installation would have been about 200 lb. lighter !!
This should have resulted in about the performance of a 120 hp. Lyc.
powered Rebel ...

......bobp

----------------------------------orig.-------------------------------------
At 10:57 PM 10/8/00 -0400, you wrote:

Hi Bob

Per your rule of thumb, a 150 HP engine would weigh 1500 lbs. That would
not leave a lot of room for fuel! I must have you rule of thumb a little
mixed up.

Brian #328R

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Patterson [mailto:bob.patterson@canrem.com]
Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2000 10:47 PM
To: Murphy Rebel Builders List
Subject: Re: SR engines?



Hi David !

Interesting, the Franklin and O-540 are about the same size, but
the Franklin is 80lbs lighter.

THAT <IS> impressive !!! Are these weights inclusive of all
(identical) accessories ??? If so, the lighter weight will really
help !!! (Old 'rule of thumb' -> 100 lb of weight ~= 10 hp. !!)
That would give the Franklin the equivalent of 228 hp ...

.....bobp

---------------------------------orig.-----------------------------------
At 07:53 AM 10/6/00 -0400, you wrote:

On 5 Oct 2000, at 23:43, Bob Patterson wrote:

I got the 800 hour number from the builder of the ONLY M14-P
powered Super Rebel now flying - he had visited Russia, and presumably

Ouch.

There is NO WAY you could use an M14 with TRI GEAR on a Super
Rebel !!! The prop is about NINE FEET !!! <NO> ground clearance !!!

Sure you could! Of course, it'll sort of look like an airplane sitting
on a bar stool...

There would be a LOT more drag, with all those cylinders out
in the breeze, .... but I was thinking of the floats, too ;-)

I was thinking about the cowling reseach NACA did on radial
engines. Thier cowl actually produced thrust, offsetting some of the
flatplate drag of the engine. Still don't know how this compares to
a well cowled flat engine.

While the 540 cowling would likely be close for fitting, any
mounts
made for a C-172 would <NOT>. You would have to custom-make your
mounts !

Okay.

The Franklin is 25.25H x 31.3W x 37.5L
The O-540A is 24.56H x 33.37W x 37.22L

The O-540 cowl should work, since they're so close in size. One of
the supliers has a premade bedmount for the engine that a mount
can be built on.

Interesting, the Franklin and O-540 are about the same size, but
the Franklin is 80lbs lighter.

---
David Parrish

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Archives located at:
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*---------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------*

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[David M Parrish]

On 8 Oct 2000, at 22:47, Bob Patterson wrote:

Interesting, the Franklin and O-540 are about the same size, but the
Franklin is 80lbs lighter.

THAT <IS> impressive !!! Are these weights inclusive of all
(identical) accessories ??? If so, the lighter weight will really

The Franklin is 297lbs, stripped bare. With all acc., except prop
and exhaust system, it comes to 364lbs. (That's with the 7lbs
SkyTec starter.)

According to Lycoming, the O-540-A weighs 374lbs, dry.
Assuming that's stripped like the Franklin, it's 77lbs heavier.

The Franklin may actually be 205HP instead of 220, and I'm
checking into the difference, but it's still only a few pounds heavier
than an IO-360 and should run smoother.

Doing a little math, if I can build a SR at, say 1400lbs, and the
gross is actually raised, that's almost a ton of payload. With 80
gallons of fuel, that's 1470lbs useful load.

That's you, _three_ friends, and the moose you shot. :)

---
David Parrish

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[rebelair]

Hi Bob

I agree with you. I bet the 912S would be a fabulous replacement for the
Lyc. 0235. The performance would be terrific considering the weight loss.
If only Rotax would build a 6 cylinder @ 150 HP, they would have an
unbelievable combination. It would be 100 lb. less than an 0320 &
considerable better on fuel etc.

They could probably build this faster than Zoche will build their 150 HP/
185 lb. radial marvel. But that is another story.

Cheers as Alister would say

Brian #328R

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Patterson [mailto:bob.patterson@canrem.com]
Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2000 11:18 PM
To: Murphy Rebel Builders List
Subject: RE: SR engines?



Ok !! OK !! ;-) It's just an old "guide" - meaning, if you lighten
the aircraft by 100 lb., it will give you approx. the same performance
improvement as adding 10 hp. :-) :-)

I sometimes get my tongue over my eye tooth, and can't see what I'm
saying !! ;-) :-) (Who, me - Wix my Mords ??!! :-) )

That's why I always felt that tossing my old Lycoming O-235C-2C
and installing a Rotax 912-S would probably give me BETTER performance !
The old Lyc. was probably only putting out 100 hp, same as the 912-S,
and the whole installation would have been about 200 lb. lighter !!
This should have resulted in about the performance of a 120 hp. Lyc.
powered Rebel ...

......bobp

----------------------------------orig.-------------------------------------
At 10:57 PM 10/8/00 -0400, you wrote:

Hi Bob

Per your rule of thumb, a 150 HP engine would weigh 1500 lbs. That would
not leave a lot of room for fuel! I must have you rule of thumb a little
mixed up.

Brian #328R

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Patterson [mailto:bob.patterson@canrem.com]
Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2000 10:47 PM
To: Murphy Rebel Builders List
Subject: Re: SR engines?



Hi David !

Interesting, the Franklin and O-540 are about the same size, but
the Franklin is 80lbs lighter.

THAT <IS> impressive !!! Are these weights inclusive of all
(identical) accessories ??? If so, the lighter weight will really
help !!! (Old 'rule of thumb' -> 100 lb of weight ~= 10 hp. !!)
That would give the Franklin the equivalent of 228 hp ...

.....bobp

---------------------------------orig.-----------------------------------
At 07:53 AM 10/6/00 -0400, you wrote:

On 5 Oct 2000, at 23:43, Bob Patterson wrote:

I got the 800 hour number from the builder of the ONLY M14-P
powered Super Rebel now flying - he had visited Russia, and presumably

Ouch.

There is NO WAY you could use an M14 with TRI GEAR on a Super
Rebel !!! The prop is about NINE FEET !!! <NO> ground clearance !!!

Sure you could! Of course, it'll sort of look like an airplane sitting
on a bar stool...

There would be a LOT more drag, with all those cylinders out
in the breeze, .... but I was thinking of the floats, too ;-)

I was thinking about the cowling reseach NACA did on radial
engines. Thier cowl actually produced thrust, offsetting some of the
flatplate drag of the engine. Still don't know how this compares to
a well cowled flat engine.

While the 540 cowling would likely be close for fitting, any
mounts
made for a C-172 would <NOT>. You would have to custom-make your
mounts !

Okay.

The Franklin is 25.25H x 31.3W x 37.5L
The O-540A is 24.56H x 33.37W x 37.22L

The O-540 cowl should work, since they're so close in size. One of
the supliers has a premade bedmount for the engine that a mount
can be built on.

Interesting, the Franklin and O-540 are about the same size, but
the Franklin is 80lbs lighter.

---
David Parrish

*-------------------------------------------------------------------------

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---------*

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between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
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*-------------------------------------------------------------------------

-

---------*

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--------*

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