[rebel-builders] Moose Accident's

Richard Wampach · Post by **Richard Wampach** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:20 pm

The rudder pedal lock up is found in NTSB report SEA07CA159, June 14
2007, Roche Harbor, WA.
----Upon landing the a/c started a slight drift to the right. Pilot
applied left rudder to compensate and felt a "thunk" as the pedal locked
forward, over center, underneath the brake pedal, which prevented the
use of the left brake. The a/c briefly lurched to the left. He applied
hard right rudder, but no apparent effect. He next applied right brake
and intentionally ground looped the aircraft to prevent going down an
embankment. The left main landing gear collapsed.

The pilot said the rudder/brake pedal assembly has only one master
cylinder for the braking system and it is located on the right hand
side. He said there is a mechanical linkage from the right to the left,
which is prone to jamming in certain rudder deflections----

As I recall, the brake master cylinders were mounted per the original
factory method.
There is a service bulletin out to mount the bottom of the master
cylinders to the floor.

After this mishap I re-worked my pedals, and suggest that all of you do
the same!

Dick Wampach SR-108

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Jesse Jenks
Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 3:47 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Moose Accident

Ted,
What was the rudder pedal lockup? I hadn't heard about that.
Thanks.
Jesse

From: "Ted Waltman" <tedwaltman@i1ci.com>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Moose Accident
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 16:44:26 -0600

I wholeheartedly agree with you Eddie. I too want to know about the

root

cause of incidents and accidents, whether minor or major. Heck, I even
would very much appreciate hearing what folks find on a walk-around or
annual condition inspection that prevents an accident.

I was merely trying to say that in the case of this recent accident,

the

only person that really can tell us what happened is the pilot.

Anything

else is idle speculation until the official report comes out.

I want folks to learn from my mistakes. I want to improve my plane

based

on
what other folks have learned. As this summer's accident in Washington

due

to the rudder pedal lock-up shows, there are accidents that result from
items that never make it to a service bulletin. As an example, I've
already
taken steps to insure I don't have the same rudder pedal issue in the
future.

Hence, when someone learns the specific facts about the Calgary

accident, I

hope we all can share in that data that helps us all improve both our
planes
and our piloting skills.

Ted

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of

Eddie

Moran
Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 4:33 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Moose Accident

Ted,

For the good of the community we need to stay abreast of what

happened

on
this and other accidents.

Does anyone know the final results of Doug Beechel's accident? I

would

imagine that the final might not be done yet.

We all know that things can happen. We just need to know exactly

what

caused the accidents.

My Moose has a M-14B and I want to know if there is somethng going

on

with
the M-14.

I want to know if there is a xxx or yyy problem etc.

Eddie Moran

Ted Waltman <tedwaltman@i1ci.com> wrote:
AFAIK, no facts about the accident have been released. No one knows
whether
it was engine trouble, a fuel issue, weather, pilot error or just plain

bad

luck. It would be nice if the pilot involved were willing to post to

the

list and enlighten us on the real facts (I don't know if the pilot is

even

a
subscriber to the list).

Ted

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of

chris

Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 2:37 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Moose Accident

Does this make anyone worried about the M14P?
Chris
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Patterson"
To:
Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 10:30 AM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Moose Accident

It looks like the Mowat Moose ... sold last year...

Once again, the Murphy construction saves the pilots !!

--
......bobp
http://www.prosumers.ca
http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.qhealthzone.com

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Tuesday 04 September 2007 16:38, Eddie Moran wrote:
http://www.metronews.ca/story_local.aspx?id=72552

Interesting that there were (2) two accidents on the same day at

the

same
airport. Bad fuel maybe?

Eddie Moran
Moose N320VT

steve whitenect wrote:

Anyone know the circumstances of the Moose on amphibs that went

down at

the
Springbank Airport near Calgary? Understand minor injuries and a

M14

engine.

Steve W 637R

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Eddie Moran · Post by **Eddie Moran** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:20 pm

Yes, a former and still skilled F-14 pilot. He did a great job of keeping a bad deal from going really bad. He got hurt but being a fighter pilot, he will rebound no doubt.

Eddie

Richard Wampach <rwampach@comcast.net> wrote:
The rudder pedal lock up is found in NTSB report SEA07CA159, June 14
2007, Roche Harbor, WA.
----Upon landing the a/c started a slight drift to the right. Pilot
applied left rudder to compensate and felt a "thunk" as the pedal locked
forward, over center, underneath the brake pedal, which prevented the
use of the left brake. The a/c briefly lurched to the left. He applied
hard right rudder, but no apparent effect. He next applied right brake
and intentionally ground looped the aircraft to prevent going down an
embankment. The left main landing gear collapsed.

The pilot said the rudder/brake pedal assembly has only one master
cylinder for the braking system and it is located on the right hand
side. He said there is a mechanical linkage from the right to the left,
which is prone to jamming in certain rudder deflections----

As I recall, the brake master cylinders were mounted per the original
factory method.
There is a service bulletin out to mount the bottom of the master
cylinders to the floor.

After this mishap I re-worked my pedals, and suggest that all of you do
the same!

Dick Wampach SR-108

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Jesse Jenks
Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 3:47 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Moose Accident

Ted,
What was the rudder pedal lockup? I hadn't heard about that.
Thanks.
Jesse

From: "Ted Waltman"
Reply-To:
To:
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Moose Accident
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 16:44:26 -0600

I wholeheartedly agree with you Eddie. I too want to know about the

root

cause of incidents and accidents, whether minor or major. Heck, I even
would very much appreciate hearing what folks find on a walk-around or
annual condition inspection that prevents an accident.

I was merely trying to say that in the case of this recent accident,

the

only person that really can tell us what happened is the pilot.

Anything

else is idle speculation until the official report comes out.

I want folks to learn from my mistakes. I want to improve my plane

based

on
what other folks have learned. As this summer's accident in Washington

due

to the rudder pedal lock-up shows, there are accidents that result from
items that never make it to a service bulletin. As an example, I've
already
taken steps to insure I don't have the same rudder pedal issue in the
future.

Hence, when someone learns the specific facts about the Calgary

accident, I

hope we all can share in that data that helps us all improve both our
planes
and our piloting skills.

Ted

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of

Eddie

Moran
Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 4:33 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Moose Accident

Ted,

For the good of the community we need to stay abreast of what

happened

on
this and other accidents.

Does anyone know the final results of Doug Beechel's accident? I

would

imagine that the final might not be done yet.

We all know that things can happen. We just need to know exactly

what

caused the accidents.

My Moose has a M-14B and I want to know if there is somethng going

on

with
the M-14.

I want to know if there is a xxx or yyy problem etc.

Eddie Moran

Ted Waltman wrote:
AFAIK, no facts about the accident have been released. No one knows
whether
it was engine trouble, a fuel issue, weather, pilot error or just plain

bad

luck. It would be nice if the pilot involved were willing to post to

the

list and enlighten us on the real facts (I don't know if the pilot is

even

a
subscriber to the list).

Ted

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of

chris

Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 2:37 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Moose Accident

Does this make anyone worried about the M14P?
Chris
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Patterson"
To:
Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 10:30 AM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Moose Accident

It looks like the Mowat Moose ... sold last year...

Once again, the Murphy construction saves the pilots !!

--
......bobp
http://www.prosumers.ca
http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.qhealthzone.com

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Tuesday 04 September 2007 16:38, Eddie Moran wrote:
http://www.metronews.ca/story_local.aspx?id=72552

Interesting that there were (2) two accidents on the same day at

the

same
airport. Bad fuel maybe?

Eddie Moran
Moose N320VT

steve whitenect wrote:

Anyone know the circumstances of the Moose on amphibs that went

down at

the
Springbank Airport near Calgary? Understand minor injuries and a

M14

engine.

Steve W 637R

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Dave Ricker · Post by **Dave Ricker** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:20 pm

SR/Moose guys, the description below sounds like the braking system is
different from the Rebel & Elite versions,

QUOTE: "The pilot said the rudder/brake pedal assembly has only one master
cylinder for the braking system and it is located on the right hand side."

Am I reading this wrong? Is there a potential problem with the Rebel/Elite
system as well?

Tks

Dave

www.elite583.cjb.net

Richard Wampach wrote:

The rudder pedal lock up is found in NTSB report SEA07CA159, June 14
2007, Roche Harbor, WA.
----Upon landing the a/c started a slight drift to the right. Pilot
applied left rudder to compensate and felt a "thunk" as the pedal locked
forward, over center, underneath the brake pedal, which prevented the
use of the left brake. The a/c briefly lurched to the left. He applied
hard right rudder, but no apparent effect. He next applied right brake
and intentionally ground looped the aircraft to prevent going down an
embankment. The left main landing gear collapsed.

The pilot said the rudder/brake pedal assembly has only one master
cylinder for the braking system and it is located on the right hand
side. He said there is a mechanical linkage from the right to the left,
which is prone to jamming in certain rudder deflections----

As I recall, the brake master cylinders were mounted per the original
factory method.
There is a service bulletin out to mount the bottom of the master
cylinders to the floor.

After this mishap I re-worked my pedals, and suggest that all of you do
the same!

Dick Wampach SR-108

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Jesse Jenks
Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 3:47 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Moose Accident

Ted,
What was the rudder pedal lockup? I hadn't heard about that.
Thanks.
Jesse

From: "Ted Waltman" <tedwaltman@i1ci.com>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Moose Accident
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 16:44:26 -0600

I wholeheartedly agree with you Eddie. I too want to know about the
root
cause of incidents and accidents, whether minor or major. Heck, I even
would very much appreciate hearing what folks find on a walk-around or
annual condition inspection that prevents an accident.

I was merely trying to say that in the case of this recent accident,
the
only person that really can tell us what happened is the pilot.
Anything
else is idle speculation until the official report comes out.

I want folks to learn from my mistakes. I want to improve my plane
based
on
what other folks have learned. As this summer's accident in Washington
due
to the rudder pedal lock-up shows, there are accidents that result from
items that never make it to a service bulletin. As an example, I've
already
taken steps to insure I don't have the same rudder pedal issue in the
future.

Hence, when someone learns the specific facts about the Calgary
accident, I
hope we all can share in that data that helps us all improve both our
planes
and our piloting skills.

Ted

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Eddie
Moran
Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 4:33 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Moose Accident

Ted,

For the good of the community we need to stay abreast of what
happened
on
this and other accidents.

Does anyone know the final results of Doug Beechel's accident? I
would
imagine that the final might not be done yet.

We all know that things can happen. We just need to know exactly
what
caused the accidents.

My Moose has a M-14B and I want to know if there is somethng going
on
with
the M-14.

I want to know if there is a xxx or yyy problem etc.

Eddie Moran

Ted Waltman <tedwaltman@i1ci.com> wrote:
AFAIK, no facts about the accident have been released. No one knows
whether
it was engine trouble, a fuel issue, weather, pilot error or just plain
bad
luck. It would be nice if the pilot involved were willing to post to
the
list and enlighten us on the real facts (I don't know if the pilot is
even
a
subscriber to the list).

Ted

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
chris
Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 2:37 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Moose Accident

Does this make anyone worried about the M14P?
Chris
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Patterson"
To:
Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 10:30 AM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Moose Accident

It looks like the Mowat Moose ... sold last year...

Once again, the Murphy construction saves the pilots !!

--
......bobp
http://www.prosumers.ca
http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.qhealthzone.com

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Tuesday 04 September 2007 16:38, Eddie Moran wrote:
the
down at
M14

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Ron Shannon · Post by **Ron Shannon** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:20 pm

Dick,

Do you recall where you saw the SB about floor mounting the Moose brake
cylinders? I don't see it on the MAM web site. Probably just missing it.

I am not aware of a service bulletin about brake cylinder floor mounting
for the Rebel, and there doesn't appear to be one on the MAM site
either. See
http://murphyair.com/murphyair/Aircraft ... chSpt.html
(http://tinyurl.com/3x2s76)
To the contrary, at that link the newly updated (8/21/07) exploded view
of the Rebel control column still shows the brake cylinder attached to
the column's control tube tang, not the floor.

As I recall, debates about the pros and cons of floor mounting
(including for the Rebel) have occurred frequently on this list. My
in-progress-not-flying 254R cylinders are still column mounted, but
perhaps I'll think that through again.

Ron
254R

PS - It was nice to meet you at Oshkosh!

Richard Wampach wrote:

The rudder pedal lock up is found in NTSB report SEA07CA159, June 14
2007, Roche Harbor, WA.
----Upon landing the a/c started a slight drift to the right. Pilot
applied left rudder to compensate and felt a "thunk" as the pedal locked
forward, over center, underneath the brake pedal, which prevented the
use of the left brake. The a/c briefly lurched to the left. He applied
hard right rudder, but no apparent effect. He next applied right brake
and intentionally ground looped the aircraft to prevent going down an
embankment. The left main landing gear collapsed.

The pilot said the rudder/brake pedal assembly has only one master
cylinder for the braking system and it is located on the right hand
side. He said there is a mechanical linkage from the right to the left,
which is prone to jamming in certain rudder deflections----

As I recall, the brake master cylinders were mounted per the original
factory method.
There is a service bulletin out to mount the bottom of the master
cylinders to the floor.

After this mishap I re-worked my pedals, and suggest that all of you do
the same!

Dick Wampach SR-108

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jon and kathy · Post by **jon and kathy** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:20 pm

to all Rebel builders,

I am building kit #223 and have made a lot of changes, some of which Darryl did not like.
I did not like the pedal/master cyl. assy as supplied by MAM so I purchased a complete assy from a Cessna 172 and modified it to work in my Rebel. Not only does it have two master cylinders, the mods allow you to run the rudder cables down the middle of the fuselage along with the elevator cables. the only additional thing to fab is a wider hat to cover the cables.
Many of the other mods include an Elite style sill, new style doors,an Elite style floor, and additional ribs in the area between the cabin and the tail cone, I have also framed the opera windows and am sheeting that area with .020 T6061.
We are putting this on 1900# Montana amphibeous floats and using a highly modified O-320.

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Richard Wampach · Post by **Richard Wampach** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:20 pm

OK Ron I have been looking for a while now, the darn thing is around
here some place.

I did locate the revised chapter 12 controls dated 21/08/2006, which by
the way does have the missing pages from earlier versions, and control
travel information on the last page (36).
Page 1 shows the floor mount brackets (15) master cylinder standoff
BRK0220.
Pages 32, 33 cover the brake pedal upgrade fig 12.1.47, 48, and 49.

I have made a few changes in this area;
I used 4 Cessna rudder pedals which drilled out to 5/8", and
added bronze bushings at the pivot point for brake action, (ACE
hardware).
I made the BRK0220's as short as possible, with just enough room
to NOT have the bottom of the master cylinders touch the floor.
I have 4 master cylinders not 2. I used the original's on the
pilots side, and Matco MC-5 cyls with reservoirs on the co-pilots side
(Aircraft Spruce pn 06-1100 $81.75 US) connected from the bottom of the
reservoir on the co-pilots side to the top of the Murphy supplied MC-4
res. on the pilots side. Then on to a Matco on-off parking brake valve
(Spruce # 06-17200) which is cable operated. This allowed me to get rid
of a lot of the cross-over linkage between the pilot's side and
co-pilot's.

After hearing about the mishap in WA, I did one more mod of my own.

Like the Cardinal C-177 I tied the two rudder torque tubes together with
a pair of modified gears. They are located at the center between the
inner pivot bearing mounts (rudder blocks CC-0102). This gives me
positive opposite pedal movement i.e. one set of pedal being moved
forward makes the other set go aft. This is independent of the rudder
cable action with springs that will normally give some cable tension,
and feed back thru the rudder its-self.

The system works very smooth on the ground. I will test it next year
when I finish the building phase and get into the flying part!

It is my intention to fly her to OSH in 08. Fuselage is done, working on
wings, then doors and engine.

Dick Wampach SR-108

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf of
Ron Shannon
Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 8:32 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Moose Accident's

Dick,

Do you recall where you saw the SB about floor mounting the Moose brake
cylinders? I don't see it on the MAM web site. Probably just missing it.

I am not aware of a service bulletin about brake cylinder floor mounting

for the Rebel, and there doesn't appear to be one on the MAM site
either. See
http://murphyair.com/murphyair/Aircraft ... chSpt.html
(http://tinyurl.com/3x2s76)
To the contrary, at that link the newly updated (8/21/07) exploded view
of the Rebel control column still shows the brake cylinder attached to
the column's control tube tang, not the floor.

As I recall, debates about the pros and cons of floor mounting
(including for the Rebel) have occurred frequently on this list. My
in-progress-not-flying 254R cylinders are still column mounted, but
perhaps I'll think that through again.

Ron
254R

PS - It was nice to meet you at Oshkosh!

Richard Wampach wrote:

The rudder pedal lock up is found in NTSB report SEA07CA159, June 14
2007, Roche Harbor, WA.
----Upon landing the a/c started a slight drift to the right. Pilot
applied left rudder to compensate and felt a "thunk" as the pedal

locked

forward, over center, underneath the brake pedal, which prevented the
use of the left brake. The a/c briefly lurched to the left. He

applied

hard right rudder, but no apparent effect. He next applied right

brake

and intentionally ground looped the aircraft to prevent going down an
embankment. The left main landing gear collapsed.

The pilot said the rudder/brake pedal assembly has only one master
cylinder for the braking system and it is located on the right hand
side. He said there is a mechanical linkage from the right to the

left,

which is prone to jamming in certain rudder deflections----

As I recall, the brake master cylinders were mounted per the original
factory method.
There is a service bulletin out to mount the bottom of the master
cylinders to the floor.

After this mishap I re-worked my pedals, and suggest that all of you

do

the same!

Dick Wampach SR-108

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