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[rebel-builders] wheel camber with die spring gear

Converted from Wildcat! database. (read only)
Bob Patterson

[rebel-builders] wheel camber with die spring gear

Post by Bob Patterson » Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:12 pm

Hi Garry !

Ours is the same - with about 1/2" of spring compression
showing. Probably nothing to worry about - we've been flying
like that for 7 years..... Only thing is the tires wear in 2 stripes
on inside & outside - guess it's from takeoff wear, and landings,
because they hang down more ! :-)

They spread even more when fully loaded ! No problem
on takeoff or landing.

Guess if it was a real problem, you could shorten the
tube a bit .... Wayne ???

--
......bobp
http://www.prosumers.ca
http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.qhealthzone.com

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Friday 22 June 2007 14:33, Garry Wright wrote:
I have fairly significant negative camber with full fuel (but nothing
else in the aircraft) using Wayne's die spring gear. As I understand it,
this should be a small positive camber (ie top of wheel should lean away
from aircraft) under this condition. Can anyone tell me what the
anticipated results on landing would be for this 'defect' in alignment?

What is the easiest way to fix that defect?

Garry
068R


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Ken

[rebel-builders] wheel camber with die spring gear

Post by Ken » Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:12 pm

Mine is also the same. Wayne says he plans for positive camber in flight
so touch down is on outside of tire and taxi wear is on inside. It does
look like a bit odd but with 180 landings on them I must admit that my
tire wear is perfect. No noticeable uneven wear on either side of the
tires. I do have a bit of toe out. My 600x6 tires are as soft as I
dare but there is no doubt that the die springs are doing most of the
work when taxxiing.
Ken

Bob Patterson wrote:
Hi Garry !

Ours is the same - with about 1/2" of spring compression
showing. Probably nothing to worry about - we've been flying
like that for 7 years..... Only thing is the tires wear in 2 stripes
on inside & outside - guess it's from takeoff wear, and landings,
because they hang down more ! :-)

They spread even more when fully loaded ! No problem
on takeoff or landing.

Guess if it was a real problem, you could shorten the
tube a bit .... Wayne ???





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Garry Wright

[rebel-builders] wheel camber with die spring gear

Post by Garry Wright » Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:12 pm

Thanks Bob and Ken. Guess I will just make sure the toe in is okay and
let it rest.

Garry

Ken wrote:
Mine is also the same. Wayne says he plans for positive camber in flight
so touch down is on outside of tire and taxi wear is on inside. It does
look like a bit odd but with 180 landings on them I must admit that my
tire wear is perfect. No noticeable uneven wear on either side of the
tires. I do have a bit of toe out. My 600x6 tires are as soft as I
dare but there is no doubt that the die springs are doing most of the
work when taxxiing.
Ken

Bob Patterson wrote:
Hi Garry !

Ours is the same - with about 1/2" of spring compression
showing. Probably nothing to worry about - we've been flying
like that for 7 years..... Only thing is the tires wear in 2 stripes
on inside & outside - guess it's from takeoff wear, and landings,
because they hang down more ! :-)

They spread even more when fully loaded ! No problem
on takeoff or landing.

Guess if it was a real problem, you could shorten the
tube a bit .... Wayne ???





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Garry Wright

[rebel-builders] wheel camber with die spring gear

Post by Garry Wright » Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:12 pm

Can someone describe the toe-in wedges that are offered by Murphy. I
read somewhere they offer 1* and 2* wedges. I imagine they are steel,
and come in pairs so that the plates remain parallel and undrilled so
one can get them in the right position. Right?

Garry

Garry Wright wrote:
Thanks Bob and Ken. Guess I will just make sure the toe in is okay and
let it rest.

Garry

Ken wrote:
Mine is also the same. Wayne says he plans for positive camber in flight
so touch down is on outside of tire and taxi wear is on inside. It does
look like a bit odd but with 180 landings on them I must admit that my
tire wear is perfect. No noticeable uneven wear on either side of the
tires. I do have a bit of toe out. My 600x6 tires are as soft as I
dare but there is no doubt that the die springs are doing most of the
work when taxxiing.
Ken

Bob Patterson wrote:
Hi Garry !

Ours is the same - with about 1/2" of spring compression
showing. Probably nothing to worry about - we've been flying
like that for 7 years..... Only thing is the tires wear in 2 stripes
on inside & outside - guess it's from takeoff wear, and landings,
because they hang down more ! :-)

They spread even more when fully loaded ! No problem
on takeoff or landing.

Guess if it was a real problem, you could shorten the
tube a bit .... Wayne ???




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Bob Patterson

[rebel-builders] wheel camber with die spring gear

Post by Bob Patterson » Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:12 pm

Hi Garry !

I'm pretty sure those wedges are only for the spring gear .....

--
......bobp
http://www.prosumers.ca
http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.qhealthzone.com

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Saturday 23 June 2007 18:11, Garry Wright wrote:
Can someone describe the toe-in wedges that are offered by Murphy. I
read somewhere they offer 1* and 2* wedges. I imagine they are steel,
and come in pairs so that the plates remain parallel and undrilled so
one can get them in the right position. Right?

Garry

Garry Wright wrote:
Thanks Bob and Ken. Guess I will just make sure the toe in is okay and
let it rest.

Garry

Ken wrote:
Mine is also the same. Wayne says he plans for positive camber in flight
so touch down is on outside of tire and taxi wear is on inside. It does
look like a bit odd but with 180 landings on them I must admit that my
tire wear is perfect. No noticeable uneven wear on either side of the
tires. I do have a bit of toe out. My 600x6 tires are as soft as I
dare but there is no doubt that the die springs are doing most of the
work when taxxiing.
Ken

Bob Patterson wrote:


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Garry Wright

[rebel-builders] wheel camber with die spring gear

Post by Garry Wright » Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:12 pm

Tnx Bob. Will check with Murphy on Monday. If that is so, what is the
fix for toe problems with die spring gear?

Garry

Bob Patterson wrote:
Hi Garry !

I'm pretty sure those wedges are only for the spring gear .....

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Bob Patterson

[rebel-builders] wheel camber with die spring gear

Post by Bob Patterson » Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:12 pm

Hmmmmmm........ a really long 4 x 4 ????!!!!

Any suggestions, Ken ?

I guess Wayne has headed out to Temagami for
the summer .....

--
......bobp
http://www.prosumers.ca
http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.qhealthzone.com

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Sunday 24 June 2007 00:24, Garry Wright wrote:
Tnx Bob. Will check with Murphy on Monday. If that is so, what is the
fix for toe problems with die spring gear?

Garry

Bob Patterson wrote:
Hi Garry !

I'm pretty sure those wedges are only for the spring gear .....



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Garry Wright

[rebel-builders] wheel camber with die spring gear

Post by Garry Wright » Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:12 pm

I'm considering just putting a couple of washers in between the plates
and the strut to change the axle angle. It won't take much.

Garry

Bob Patterson wrote:
Hmmmmmm........ a really long 4 x 4 ????!!!!

Any suggestions, Ken ?

I guess Wayne has headed out to Temagami for
the summer .....

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Daryl C. W. O'Shea

[rebel-builders] wheel camber with die spring gear

Post by Daryl C. W. O'Shea » Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:12 pm

If you wanted positive camber on the ground, and loaded, you'd have to
use heavier springs. If you just shortened the struts you'd have that
much more positive camber in flight and you'd end up landing that much
further over on the side of the outboard side of the tire. You'd have
excessive wear on the outboard side of the tires, and none on the
inboard side.

What's the toe in now? Ideally you want it at zero. Toed in and you
can get squirrelly on landing -- not that I would personally know. Toed
out and you'll have the gear slapping in once there's enough pressure on
one of the springs to yank one of the gear legs back in.

Wayne's gone for, well, I'd imagine he'll be back when he can no longer
manage to get his boat through the ice.


Daryl



Garry Wright wrote:
Thanks Bob and Ken. Guess I will just make sure the toe in is okay and
let it rest.

Garry

Ken wrote:
Mine is also the same. Wayne says he plans for positive camber in flight
so touch down is on outside of tire and taxi wear is on inside. It does
look like a bit odd but with 180 landings on them I must admit that my
tire wear is perfect. No noticeable uneven wear on either side of the
tires. I do have a bit of toe out. My 600x6 tires are as soft as I
dare but there is no doubt that the die springs are doing most of the
work when taxxiing.
Ken

Bob Patterson wrote:
Hi Garry !

Ours is the same - with about 1/2" of spring compression
showing. Probably nothing to worry about - we've been flying
like that for 7 years..... Only thing is the tires wear in 2 stripes
on inside & outside - guess it's from takeoff wear, and landings,
because they hang down more ! :-)

They spread even more when fully loaded ! No problem
on takeoff or landing.

Guess if it was a real problem, you could shorten the
tube a bit .... Wayne ???

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Garry Wright

[rebel-builders] wheel camber with die spring gear

Post by Garry Wright » Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:12 pm

Thanks Daryl. I have a bit of toe in on the right (less than 1 degree)
and about an equal amount of toe out on the left. I will fix the left to
about neutral. I think it pulls left on landing so that may fix it. I
have never experienced any slapping but have had some excess wear on the
left tire on the inside. Not entirely sure that is from the toe out
because I used to do some tight turns almost always to the left. I quit
doing that when I saw the wear pattern.

Garry

Daryl C. W. O'Shea wrote:
If you wanted positive camber on the ground, and loaded, you'd have to
use heavier springs. If you just shortened the struts you'd have that
much more positive camber in flight and you'd end up landing that much
further over on the side of the outboard side of the tire. You'd have
excessive wear on the outboard side of the tires, and none on the
inboard side.

What's the toe in now? Ideally you want it at zero. Toed in and you
can get squirrelly on landing -- not that I would personally know. Toed
out and you'll have the gear slapping in once there's enough pressure on
one of the springs to yank one of the gear legs back in.

Wayne's gone for, well, I'd imagine he'll be back when he can no longer
manage to get his boat through the ice.


Daryl



Garry Wright wrote:
Thanks Bob and Ken. Guess I will just make sure the toe in is okay and
let it rest.

Garry

Ken wrote:
Mine is also the same. Wayne says he plans for positive camber in flight
so touch down is on outside of tire and taxi wear is on inside. It does
look like a bit odd but with 180 landings on them I must admit that my
tire wear is perfect. No noticeable uneven wear on either side of the
tires. I do have a bit of toe out. My 600x6 tires are as soft as I
dare but there is no doubt that the die springs are doing most of the
work when taxxiing.
Ken

Bob Patterson wrote:

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Ken

[rebel-builders] wheel camber with die spring gear

Post by Ken » Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:12 pm

Welllllll.....

I'd probably make tapered shims. As a wild guess - if the bolt holes are
3" apart - then one degree means shimming 3/60" or a shim that is 0.050"
thicker over the 3". So using homemade aluminum washers (possible
rectangular) is not out of the question. I'd put a thin spacer under one
bolt and a thick one under the other on both sides (staggered of
course). Might be worth checking the gear legs for any bends or twists
first.

One degree is one foot in 60 feet. Might not be worth worrying about.
Other thing is whether the 1 degree is 3 point or tail up. I think
mine is 0 toe with the tail up and some toe out with all three wheels on
the ground.

Somebody here mentioned rotating the axle 1/4 turn and milling new flats
but that's a lot of work and the extra bolt holes just might cause
enough stress concentration to be a concern.

Ken

Bob Patterson wrote:
Hmmmmmm........ a really long 4 x 4 ????!!!!

Any suggestions, Ken ?

I guess Wayne has headed out to Temagami for
the summer .....





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Garry Wright

[rebel-builders] wheel camber with die spring gear

Post by Garry Wright » Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:12 pm

Yes. I had concluded that tapered shims would do the job. Spacing is
1.75" so thickness is not very great for 1* shift. About 0.03" will do
it for difference between the two hole. Thanks Ken.

Garry

Ken wrote:
Welllllll.....

I'd probably make tapered shims. As a wild guess - if the bolt holes are
3" apart - then one degree means shimming 3/60" or a shim that is 0.050"
thicker over the 3". So using homemade aluminum washers (possible
rectangular) is not out of the question. I'd put a thin spacer under one
bolt and a thick one under the other on both sides (staggered of
course). Might be worth checking the gear legs for any bends or twists
first.

One degree is one foot in 60 feet. Might not be worth worrying about.
Other thing is whether the 1 degree is 3 point or tail up. I think
mine is 0 toe with the tail up and some toe out with all three wheels on
the ground.

Somebody here mentioned rotating the axle 1/4 turn and milling new flats
but that's a lot of work and the extra bolt holes just might cause
enough stress concentration to be a concern.

Ken

Bob Patterson wrote:
Hmmmmmm........ a really long 4 x 4 ????!!!!

Any suggestions, Ken ?

I guess Wayne has headed out to Temagami for
the summer .....





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bransom

[rebel-builders] wheel camber with die spring gear

Post by bransom » Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:12 pm

I've generally assumed that toe-in is worse than toe-out because, if a
toe'd in wheel touches first it would want to drive the plane toward the
opposite side, i.e., start of ground loop. The likelihood of
unintentionally planting one wheel down is probably higher if in a X-wind
condition that is taking over. In this unfortunate case, the windward wing
gets pushed up, the toe'd in wheel plants first and starts steering into
the wind, and as if that weren't enf, the wind is pushing on the tail to
aggravate the whole deal.

As for camber, I personally would like to have more spring travel, even if
it means positive camber when the wings are partially taking the weight.
I'd opt for shock absorption and letting the thing go from positive to
negative camber over the bumps and dips. I'd accept some tire wear for
better suspension (and better looks IMO by not looking squashed while
sitting there with only one aboard).
-Ben
Thanks Daryl. I have a bit of toe in on the right (less than 1 degree)
and about an equal amount of toe out on the left. I will fix the left to
about neutral. I think it pulls left on landing so that may fix it. I
have never experienced any slapping but have had some excess wear on the
left tire on the inside. Not entirely sure that is from the toe out
because I used to do some tight turns almost always to the left. I quit
doing that when I saw the wear pattern.

Garry

Daryl C. W. O'Shea wrote:
If you wanted positive camber on the ground, and loaded, you'd have to
use heavier springs. If you just shortened the struts you'd have that
much more positive camber in flight and you'd end up landing that much
further over on the side of the outboard side of the tire. You'd have
excessive wear on the outboard side of the tires, and none on the
inboard side.

What's the toe in now? Ideally you want it at zero. Toed in and you
can get squirrelly on landing -- not that I would personally know. Toed
out and you'll have the gear slapping in once there's enough pressure on
one of the springs to yank one of the gear legs back in.

Wayne's gone for, well, I'd imagine he'll be back when he can no longer
manage to get his boat through the ice.


Daryl



Garry Wright wrote:
Thanks Bob and Ken. Guess I will just make sure the toe in is okay and
let it rest.

Garry

Ken wrote:

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Garry Wright

[rebel-builders] wheel camber with die spring gear

Post by Garry Wright » Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:12 pm

Hi Ben,

Your argument on toe in/out seems reasonable from a stability point of
view but then you have both tires trying to pull the wheels apart from
one another - more negative camber squash. I think mine is okay camber
wise but more would be too much. I put some pretty good bounces on my
plane on landing (lots of wind around here) and I only have about 1/2"
each end of lengthening the die springs from static state. Probably
worst case is one wheel toed in and the other toed out - always yeilding
a tendency to loop to the toed-out wheel side. This is much worse on
pavement than on grass too. You make a good argument for neutral on toe
in/out I think.

Garry

bransom@dcsol.com wrote:
I've generally assumed that toe-in is worse than toe-out because, if a
toe'd in wheel touches first it would want to drive the plane toward the
opposite side, i.e., start of ground loop. The likelihood of
unintentionally planting one wheel down is probably higher if in a X-wind
condition that is taking over. In this unfortunate case, the windward wing
gets pushed up, the toe'd in wheel plants first and starts steering into
the wind, and as if that weren't enf, the wind is pushing on the tail to
aggravate the whole deal.

As for camber, I personally would like to have more spring travel, even if
it means positive camber when the wings are partially taking the weight.
I'd opt for shock absorption and letting the thing go from positive to
negative camber over the bumps and dips. I'd accept some tire wear for
better suspension (and better looks IMO by not looking squashed while
sitting there with only one aboard).
-Ben
Thanks Daryl. I have a bit of toe in on the right (less than 1 degree)
and about an equal amount of toe out on the left. I will fix the left to
about neutral. I think it pulls left on landing so that may fix it. I
have never experienced any slapping but have had some excess wear on the
left tire on the inside. Not entirely sure that is from the toe out
because I used to do some tight turns almost always to the left. I quit
doing that when I saw the wear pattern.

Garry

Daryl C. W. O'Shea wrote:
If you wanted positive camber on the ground, and loaded, you'd have to
use heavier springs. If you just shortened the struts you'd have that
much more positive camber in flight and you'd end up landing that much
further over on the side of the outboard side of the tire. You'd have
excessive wear on the outboard side of the tires, and none on the
inboard side.

What's the toe in now? Ideally you want it at zero. Toed in and you
can get squirrelly on landing -- not that I would personally know. Toed
out and you'll have the gear slapping in once there's enough pressure on
one of the springs to yank one of the gear legs back in.

Wayne's gone for, well, I'd imagine he'll be back when he can no longer
manage to get his boat through the ice.


Daryl



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Mike Kimball

[rebel-builders] wheel camber with die spring gear

Post by Mike Kimball » Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:12 pm

I have two tapered shims that came with my Super Rebel kit. One has more
taper than the other. I guess you just choose which one will do what you
need. Then you cut them for top and bottom bolts. I didn't need them. My
wheels are good as is. If you want them, let me know off-line and I'll ship
them to you.

Mike
044SR

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Garry
Wright
Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2007 7:22 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] wheel camber with die spring gear

Yes. I had concluded that tapered shims would do the job. Spacing is
1.75" so thickness is not very great for 1* shift. About 0.03" will do
it for difference between the two hole. Thanks Ken.

Garry

Ken wrote:
Welllllll.....

I'd probably make tapered shims. As a wild guess - if the bolt holes are
3" apart - then one degree means shimming 3/60" or a shim that is 0.050"
thicker over the 3". So using homemade aluminum washers (possible
rectangular) is not out of the question. I'd put a thin spacer under one
bolt and a thick one under the other on both sides (staggered of
course). Might be worth checking the gear legs for any bends or twists
first.

One degree is one foot in 60 feet. Might not be worth worrying about.
Other thing is whether the 1 degree is 3 point or tail up. I think
mine is 0 toe with the tail up and some toe out with all three wheels on
the ground.

Somebody here mentioned rotating the axle 1/4 turn and milling new flats
but that's a lot of work and the extra bolt holes just might cause
enough stress concentration to be a concern.

Ken

Bob Patterson wrote:
Hmmmmmm........ a really long 4 x 4 ????!!!!

Any suggestions, Ken ?

I guess Wayne has headed out to Temagami for
the summer .....





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