[rebel-builders] rudder pedal return springs

Bob Patterson · Post by **Bob Patterson** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:11 pm

Hi Jesse !

I think the springs are just to hold the pedals vertical !
There is a fair bit of weight & friction in the cable - as long
as they are strong enough to overcome that, you should
be OK ....

Maybe you do need longer and/or weaker springs.
Probably better than changing to a more vertical angle,
although there's nothing wrong with going to the
rear of the engine mount, as long as the spring doesn't
obstruct pedal travel.

Might have something to do with how far back you
have positioned your pedals. I've seen many Rebels
with the pedals too far forward ! In that position,
if you push in full rudder, plus full brake, the pedal
is hitting the firewall, and you can't get full brake ! :-(
This is one area where you can customize your
airplane for comfort - with the pedals farther back,
the airplane can be comfortable for shorter-legged
pilots, and still work well for others, if they like to fly
with their knees bent....

--
......bobp
http://www.prosumers.ca
http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.qhealthzone.com

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Thursday 14 June 2007 01:20, Jesse Jenks wrote:

If I attach my springs as shown in the manual (toward the front of the
engine mount brackets) it will put a huge pre-load on them. I don't think I
want that much tension in the system. It looks like a more vertical
attachment to the bracket would work better, because the tension increase
won't be so linear as the pedal moves aft. What happens if a rudder cable
breaks? With a ton of tension on the other side, you get a rudder
hardover=bad. Do you want just enough spring tension to hold the pedals
vertical in the neutral position, or should there be enough to pull the
pedal to the forward stop? If the latter is true, it sure seems that my
springs anyway, would be pulling pretty darn hard with the pedal at the aft
stop.
Should I get lighter (weaker) springs that have more travel?
Thanks.
Jesse

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Jesse Jenks · Post by **Jesse Jenks** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:11 pm

Thanks Bob,
Yeah, I probably do have my pedals a bit far back. I was definitely worried
about firewall contact. It's hard to get it right when you don't know how
much pedal travel there will be, so I made it so I can get a pretty extreme
pedal angle-with brake travel at the end. But they can't be more than 1"
farther aft than stock. When I pull the spring open between my hands, I
can't get more than 2" of travel. I'm sure I could pull it farther using my
leg and the leverage of the pedal, but that seems like a lot of tension in
the system-it's a supprisingly stiff spring. As you say, the spring can't
restrict forward pedal travel either, so it either has to get out of the
way, or it must be pre-loaded at the pedal neutral position, so it is still
pulling all the way to forward stop. Using a more vertical angle seems to
solve that problem too, because the spring just pivots as the pedal goes
past vertical into forward travel. I might just try it and see. It's easy to
drill another hole if it's not right.
Jesse

From: Bob Patterson <beep@sympatico.ca>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] rudder pedal return springs
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 10:33:58 -0400

Hi Jesse !

I think the springs are just to hold the pedals vertical !
There is a fair bit of weight & friction in the cable - as long
as they are strong enough to overcome that, you should
be OK ....

Maybe you do need longer and/or weaker springs.
Probably better than changing to a more vertical angle,
although there's nothing wrong with going to the
rear of the engine mount, as long as the spring doesn't
obstruct pedal travel.

Might have something to do with how far back you
have positioned your pedals. I've seen many Rebels
with the pedals too far forward ! In that position,
if you push in full rudder, plus full brake, the pedal
is hitting the firewall, and you can't get full brake ! :-(
This is one area where you can customize your
airplane for comfort - with the pedals farther back,
the airplane can be comfortable for shorter-legged
pilots, and still work well for others, if they like to fly
with their knees bent....

--
......bobp
http://www.prosumers.ca
http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.qhealthzone.com

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Thursday 14 June 2007 01:20, Jesse Jenks wrote:
If I attach my springs as shown in the manual (toward the front of the
engine mount brackets) it will put a huge pre-load on them. I don't
think I
want that much tension in the system. It looks like a more vertical
attachment to the bracket would work better, because the tension
increase
won't be so linear as the pedal moves aft. What happens if a rudder
cable
breaks? With a ton of tension on the other side, you get a rudder
hardover=bad. Do you want just enough spring tension to hold the pedals
vertical in the neutral position, or should there be enough to pull the
pedal to the forward stop? If the latter is true, it sure seems that my
springs anyway, would be pulling pretty darn hard with the pedal at the
aft
stop.
Should I get lighter (weaker) springs that have more travel?
Thanks.
Jesse

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Ken · Post by **Ken** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:11 pm

Adding an extension loop of wire, a metal strap with a hole at both
ends, or a bracket on the firewall (or floor) also gives you something
to adjust if you decide you need a little rudder trim to keep the ball
centered in cruise. Think I've posted to the archives in the past but
the pedals don't move much - wild guess maybe only 3" apart at full
travel (ie +/- 1.5 inches ea. pedal)
Ken

Jesse Jenks wrote:

Thanks Bob,
Yeah, I probably do have my pedals a bit far back. I was definitely worried
about firewall contact. It's hard to get it right when you don't know how
much pedal travel there will be, so I made it so I can get a pretty extreme
pedal angle-with brake travel at the end. But they can't be more than 1"
farther aft than stock. When I pull the spring open between my hands, I
can't get more than 2" of travel. I'm sure I could pull it farther using my
leg and the leverage of the pedal, but that seems like a lot of tension in
the system-it's a supprisingly stiff spring. As you say, the spring can't
restrict forward pedal travel either, so it either has to get out of the
way, or it must be pre-loaded at the pedal neutral position, so it is still
pulling all the way to forward stop. Using a more vertical angle seems to
solve that problem too, because the spring just pivots as the pedal goes
past vertical into forward travel. I might just try it and see. It's easy to
drill another hole if it's not right.
Jesse

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Jesse Jenks · Post by **Jesse Jenks** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:11 pm

Thanks Ken,
I was thinking along those lines. I might make brackets with a few holes to
be able to adjust tension like you say. Good to know the pedals don't move
much. I will stop worrying about hitting the firewall now, and just worry
that I wasted leg room by moving them back. Oh well, I didn't cut the
firewall back, so I should still be OK.
Jesse

From: Ken <klehman@albedo.net>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] rudder pedal return springs
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 17:25:13 -0400

Adding an extension loop of wire, a metal strap with a hole at both
ends, or a bracket on the firewall (or floor) also gives you something
to adjust if you decide you need a little rudder trim to keep the ball
centered in cruise. Think I've posted to the archives in the past but
the pedals don't move much - wild guess maybe only 3" apart at full
travel (ie +/- 1.5 inches ea. pedal)
Ken

Jesse Jenks wrote:

Thanks Bob,
Yeah, I probably do have my pedals a bit far back. I was definitely
worried
about firewall contact. It's hard to get it right when you don't know how
much pedal travel there will be, so I made it so I can get a pretty
extreme
pedal angle-with brake travel at the end. But they can't be more than 1"
farther aft than stock. When I pull the spring open between my hands, I
can't get more than 2" of travel. I'm sure I could pull it farther using
my
leg and the leverage of the pedal, but that seems like a lot of tension
in
the system-it's a supprisingly stiff spring. As you say, the spring can't
restrict forward pedal travel either, so it either has to get out of the
way, or it must be pre-loaded at the pedal neutral position, so it is
still
pulling all the way to forward stop. Using a more vertical angle seems to
solve that problem too, because the spring just pivots as the pedal goes
past vertical into forward travel. I might just try it and see. It's easy
to
drill another hole if it's not right.
Jesse

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Drew Dalgleish · Post by **Drew Dalgleish** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:11 pm

Also remember that the pedals are offset so the holes need to be in
different places if you're going for equal tension on both sides. I have 2
springs on the right side to correct a heavy rudder.

At 05:25 PM 6/14/2007 -0400, you wrote:

Adding an extension loop of wire, a metal strap with a hole at both
ends, or a bracket on the firewall (or floor) also gives you something
to adjust if you decide you need a little rudder trim to keep the ball
centered in cruise. Think I've posted to the archives in the past but
the pedals don't move much - wild guess maybe only 3" apart at full
travel (ie +/- 1.5 inches ea. pedal)
Ken

Jesse Jenks wrote:

Thanks Bob,
Yeah, I probably do have my pedals a bit far back. I was definitely worried
about firewall contact. It's hard to get it right when you don't know how
much pedal travel there will be, so I made it so I can get a pretty extreme
pedal angle-with brake travel at the end. But they can't be more than 1"
farther aft than stock. When I pull the spring open between my hands, I
can't get more than 2" of travel. I'm sure I could pull it farther using my
leg and the leverage of the pedal, but that seems like a lot of tension in
the system-it's a supprisingly stiff spring. As you say, the spring can't
restrict forward pedal travel either, so it either has to get out of the
way, or it must be pre-loaded at the pedal neutral position, so it is still
pulling all the way to forward stop. Using a more vertical angle seems to
solve that problem too, because the spring just pivots as the pedal goes
past vertical into forward travel. I might just try it and see. It's easy

to

drill another hole if it's not right.
Jesse

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Drew

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Jesse Jenks · Post by **Jesse Jenks** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:11 pm

Drew,
The pedal bearings are offset on the floor, but theoretically all 4 pedals
should line up in the neutral position right?
Jesse

From: Drew Dalgleish <drewjan@cabletv.on.ca>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] rudder pedal return springs
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 18:52:39 -0400

Also remember that the pedals are offset so the holes need to be in
different places if you're going for equal tension on both sides. I have 2
springs on the right side to correct a heavy rudder.

At 05:25 PM 6/14/2007 -0400, you wrote:
Adding an extension loop of wire, a metal strap with a hole at both
ends, or a bracket on the firewall (or floor) also gives you something
to adjust if you decide you need a little rudder trim to keep the ball
centered in cruise. Think I've posted to the archives in the past but
the pedals don't move much - wild guess maybe only 3" apart at full
travel (ie +/- 1.5 inches ea. pedal)
Ken

Jesse Jenks wrote:

Thanks Bob,
Yeah, I probably do have my pedals a bit far back. I was definitely
worried
about firewall contact. It's hard to get it right when you don't know
how
much pedal travel there will be, so I made it so I can get a pretty
extreme
pedal angle-with brake travel at the end. But they can't be more than 1"
farther aft than stock. When I pull the spring open between my hands, I
can't get more than 2" of travel. I'm sure I could pull it farther using
my
leg and the leverage of the pedal, but that seems like a lot of tension
in
the system-it's a supprisingly stiff spring. As you say, the spring
can't
restrict forward pedal travel either, so it either has to get out of the
way, or it must be pre-loaded at the pedal neutral position, so it is
still
pulling all the way to forward stop. Using a more vertical angle seems
to
solve that problem too, because the spring just pivots as the pedal goes
past vertical into forward travel. I might just try it and see. It's
easy
to
drill another hole if it's not right.
Jesse

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Drew

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Drew Dalgleish · Post by **Drew Dalgleish** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:11 pm

Well they could but I don't think mine do. Even if they did line up the
swing arc would be different and the spring tension would change with
deflection.

At 06:58 PM 6/14/2007 -0700, you wrote:

Drew,
The pedal bearings are offset on the floor, but theoretically all 4 pedals
should line up in the neutral position right?
Jesse

From: Drew Dalgleish <drewjan@cabletv.on.ca>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] rudder pedal return springs
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 18:52:39 -0400

Also remember that the pedals are offset so the holes need to be in
different places if you're going for equal tension on both sides. I have 2
springs on the right side to correct a heavy rudder.

At 05:25 PM 6/14/2007 -0400, you wrote:
Adding an extension loop of wire, a metal strap with a hole at both
ends, or a bracket on the firewall (or floor) also gives you something
to adjust if you decide you need a little rudder trim to keep the ball
centered in cruise. Think I've posted to the archives in the past but
the pedals don't move much - wild guess maybe only 3" apart at full
travel (ie +/- 1.5 inches ea. pedal)
Ken

Jesse Jenks wrote:

worried
how
extreme
my
in
can't
still
to
easy
to

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Drew

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Jesse Jenks · Post by **Jesse Jenks** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:11 pm

OK thanks,
That's another reason to build in some kind of adjustment I guess.
Thanks guys.

From: Drew Dalgleish <drewjan@cabletv.on.ca>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] rudder pedal return springs
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 22:19:06 -0400

Well they could but I don't think mine do. Even if they did line up the
swing arc would be different and the spring tension would change with
deflection.

At 06:58 PM 6/14/2007 -0700, you wrote:
Drew,
The pedal bearings are offset on the floor, but theoretically all 4
pedals
should line up in the neutral position right?
Jesse

From: Drew Dalgleish <drewjan@cabletv.on.ca>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] rudder pedal return springs
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 18:52:39 -0400

Also remember that the pedals are offset so the holes need to be in
different places if you're going for equal tension on both sides. I have
2
springs on the right side to correct a heavy rudder.

At 05:25 PM 6/14/2007 -0400, you wrote: worried how extreme
1"
I
using
my
tension
in can't
the
still
seems
to
goes
easy
to Drew

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Drew

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