[rebel-builders] Tube for wiring in the wings

[Rick Harper]

G'day Keith !

AS & S sell little (& large) round nylon clip in bushes -

They come in all sizes (just drill a hole & push one IN - they lock into place ... NO tubing needed - just the inserts at each rib, fitting whatever!

Biggus
541R
----- Original Message -----
From: Keith Leitch
To: Murphy Rebel Builders
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 3:08 PM
Subject: [rebel-builders] Tube for wiring in the wings


I did a search on putting a tube of some sort in the
leading edge of my wings for wiring and see that it
was recomended to use a thin wall aluminum. I am
having a hard time finding such a thing over here in
Hawaii and was wondering if anyone has used the milky
colored polyethelyne tubing. It is fairly stiff and I
found it a the Lowe's store. There was also a clear
vinyl tubing. I know one of the problems with PVC was
the toxic nature of fumes from it if burned.
Anyone have an idea what to use other than Aluminum?

Keith



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[Drew Dalgleish]

I just ran the wires through the tooling holes in the leading edge ribs and
secured them with a dab of silicon sealant at each rib. It'll be a real
pain in the ass if they ever need changed though. Probably won't need done
in my lifetime. If the wing is burning bad enough that the toxins from
inside it are going to get you then you have way bigger problems than the
toxins.

At 08:08 PM 2/19/2007 -0800, you wrote:

I did a search on putting a tube of some sort in the
leading edge of my wings for wiring and see that it
was recomended to use a thin wall aluminum. I am
having a hard time finding such a thing over here in
Hawaii and was wondering if anyone has used the milky
colored polyethelyne tubing. It is fairly stiff and I
found it a the Lowe's store. There was also a clear
vinyl tubing. I know one of the problems with PVC was
the toxic nature of fumes from it if burned.
Anyone have an idea what to use other than Aluminum?

Keith



___________________________________________________________________________

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Drew



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[Ron Shannon]

Keith,

FWIW, I will be fitting conduit in existing wings, between the tips and
access ports at the top of the wing struts. I'm planning to use
polyurethane tubing (from ACS) -- for its alleged abrasion resistance
superior to aluminum tube -- supported by MS21919 clamps, mounted on top
of Click Bond standoffs (http://tinyurl.com/2pbskz) -- which have the
virtue of not requiring any holes in the metal.

I've used Click Bond nutplates in a couple of places (forward stab
attach, torque tube outboard end cap alignment bolts) and am very
impressed with them. The two-part epoxy-style adhesive is very strong.
It just can't be used in very hot locations, like FWF.

Ron



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[Jean Poirier]

I have use a 1/2" PEX pipe for plumbery... cheap/light and ridgid. I have
just bend some strip of .020" aluminium to make clamps. I can send you a
picture if you want

Jean
Rebel 747R

Jean Poirier
Pr

[Robert Johnson]

Hi Keith: The milky colored 3/4 polyethylene is what I have also used. light
and inexpensive (cheap). I drilled holes in the leading edge ribs just large
enough to squeeze the tubing thru and secured with tie clips on both ends.
The nice feature of a one piece tube is the ability to put wires thru at any
time. I have also left a string full length hanging out each end in case
additional wires need to be pulled thru at a later date. Like Drew says if
toxins from burning in that area are a problem - you have bigger issues. Bob
J Rebel 192/731
----- Original Message -----
From: "Keith Leitch" <im_planecrazy@yahoo.com>
To: "Murphy Rebel Builders" <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 11:08 PM
Subject: [rebel-builders] Tube for wiring in the wings

I did a search on putting a tube of some sort in the
leading edge of my wings for wiring and see that it
was recomended to use a thin wall aluminum. I am
having a hard time finding such a thing over here in
Hawaii and was wondering if anyone has used the milky
colored polyethelyne tubing. It is fairly stiff and I
found it a the Lowe's store. There was also a clear
vinyl tubing. I know one of the problems with PVC was
the toxic nature of fumes from it if burned.
Anyone have an idea what to use other than Aluminum?

Keith



____________________________________________________________________________________
Don't pick lemons.
See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos.
http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html



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[Jean Poirier]

And if like me you do not have the cord inside, you make a little ball of
masking tape at the end of a small cord, put it in the tube, and blow air
inside to push the ball at the other end. And the "guru" do not like the
pvc but the the pex tube is made of polyethylene (not polyvinylch...). 2
cents opinion...

Jean Poirier
Pr

[Bob Patterson]

Hi Keith !

For a reason I've forgotten, the factory does not like the
idea of running wires down the leading edge of the wings.
(Might be a worry about weakening the D-tube structure,
or a fear of the wires wearing a hole over time .... both
are real possibilities ! )

You may have noticed from some of the comments ....
it's a better idea to run a tube behind the spar, and to
bring the wires down inside the wing strut, along with
the pitot tube line. This puts them at the bottom of the
cockpit, where it's easy to run them up to the panel.
If you come all the way in to the wing root, the wires
& tubes exit up top, behind the cage frame, and it's
very awkward to route them down to the back of the
panel, ... and you don't want to drill large holes in
that cage tubing ! A quick connect fitting at both
ends of the strut will make life a lot easier for
maintenance.

As for material, I wouldn't be too worried 'way out
there outboard of the strut, as long as the tubing is
securely fastened. I would really NOT want to use
any 'adhesive only' fasteners - it can get well over
200 degrees inside a wing in summer, especially
if dark paint is used ! Adel clamps, rivetted, sounds
good to me ... or just made-up aluminum straps -
with rounded edges.

--
......bobp
http://www.prosumers.ca
http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.qhealthzone.com

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Tuesday 20 February 2007 04:08, Keith Leitch wrote:

I did a search on putting a tube of some sort in the
leading edge of my wings for wiring and see that it
was recomended to use a thin wall aluminum. I am
having a hard time finding such a thing over here in
Hawaii and was wondering if anyone has used the milky
colored polyethelyne tubing. It is fairly stiff and I
found it a the Lowe's store. There was also a clear
vinyl tubing. I know one of the problems with PVC was
the toxic nature of fumes from it if burned.
Anyone have an idea what to use other than Aluminum?

Keith

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[Ron Shannon]

Wow, obviously the paint color is relevant (the Darth Vader look is
unpopular for a reason <g>) but... I didn't think it would get that hot
inside the wing. Has anyone actually measured that? I would think long
before the inside developed that much temperature differential to
outside temps, there would be some convection/displacement flow through
various holes (wing root D-cell, etc.) and/or the aluminum skins would
dissipate more heat than that number suggests. I would hope the fuel
tanks aren't getting that hot.

It's my understanding the Click Bond products are widely used in
commercial and military aircraft applications, presumably even in
enclosed areas exposed to sun. With the concerns you raise, I'll
certainly get their advice on the issue.



Bob Patterson wrote:
...

As for material, I wouldn't be too worried 'way out
there outboard of the strut, as long as the tubing is
securely fastened. I would really NOT want to use
any 'adhesive only' fasteners - it can get well over
200 degrees inside a wing in summer, especially
if dark paint is used ! Adel clamps, rivetted, sounds
good to me ... or just made-up aluminum straps -
with rounded edges.

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[Ron Shannon]

FWIW, here's test results on temps inside a closed, dark car exposed to
hot sun on a 93 deg. F day -- where the inside temps leveled off at 140
deg. F., even when radiantly heated through window glass. It's hard to
think a wing would get & hold more heat than that.

http://tinyurl.com/2xv4gj


Ron Shannon wrote:

Wow, obviously the paint color is relevant (the Darth Vader look is
unpopular for a reason <g>) but... I didn't think it would get that hot
inside the wing. Has anyone actually measured that? I would think long
before the inside developed that much temperature differential to
outside temps, there would be some convection/displacement flow through
various holes (wing root D-cell, etc.) and/or the aluminum skins would
dissipate more heat than that number suggests. I would hope the fuel
tanks aren't getting that hot.

It's my understanding the Click Bond products are widely used in
commercial and military aircraft applications, presumably even in
enclosed areas exposed to sun. With the concerns you raise, I'll
certainly get their advice on the issue.



Bob Patterson wrote:
...

As for material, I wouldn't be too worried 'way out
there outboard of the strut, as long as the tubing is
securely fastened. I would really NOT want to use
any 'adhesive only' fasteners - it can get well over
200 degrees inside a wing in summer, especially
if dark paint is used ! Adel clamps, rivetted, sounds
good to me ... or just made-up aluminum straps -
with rounded edges.

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.

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[Rickhm]

Think of the temperatures in a cool place like Phoenix where on rare occasions they close the airport when it gets to 120+. I am told they close the airports (or they use to ) because the ops manual for airlines only go to 120, or so I have been told. Maybe we should ask if this is still the case. In any event, if it gets that hot outside it isn't that much of a streach to get to 200. You must consider where you "might" fly your plane on vacation when your done!

Rick Muller
SR70

-------------- Original message --------------
From: Ron Shannon <rshannon@cruzcom.com>

Wow, obviously the paint color is relevant (the Darth Vader look is
unpopular for a reason ) but... I didn't think it would get that hot
inside the wing. Has anyone actually measured that? I would think long
before the inside developed that much temperature differential to
outside temps, there would be some convection/displacement flow through
various holes (wing root D-cell, etc.) and/or the aluminum skins would
dissipate more heat than that number suggests. I would hope the fuel
tanks aren't getting that hot.

It's my understanding the Click Bond products are widely used in
commercial and military aircraft applications, presumably even in
enclosed areas exposed to sun. With the concerns you raise, I'll
certainly get their advice on the issue.



Bob Patterson wrote:
...

As for material, I wouldn't be too worried 'way out
there outboard of the strut, as long as the tubing is
securely fastened. I would really NOT want to use
any 'adhesive only' fasteners - it can get well over
200 degrees inside a wing in summer, especially
if dark paint is used ! Adel clamps, rivetted, sounds
good to me ... or just made-up aluminum straps -
with rounded edges.

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[Ron Shannon]

Rick, wouldn't that be a density altitude issue? Quite a different
concern than specialty adhesive structural survivability.

Here's another closed car test where top inside temp was higher, at 78
deg. C (172 F) -- but again with sun pouring through and held in by
glass, which has to be a more extreme heat collector than a wing.

http://tinyurl.com/yug58c


Rickhm@comcast.net wrote:

Think of the temperatures in a cool place like Phoenix where on rare occasions they close the airport when it gets to 120+. I am told they close the airports (or they use to ) because the ops manual for airlines only go to 120, or so I have been told. Maybe we should ask if this is still the case. In any event, if it gets that hot outside it isn't that much of a streach to get to 200. You must consider where you "might" fly your plane on vacation when your done!

Rick Muller
SR70

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[Keith Leitch]

Thanks to everyone that has replied to my question.

Bob,

I guess I didn't state what I was trying to say
correctly. I meant that I was going to run the wires
between the front and the main spar. I was just saying
the leading edge in refernce to that skin. Do you have
any pictures of the inside cabin? I would really like
to run the wire all the way to the root and since I
don't have any idea what the finished product will
look like I am haveing a hard time visualizing what
you are saying about routing the wires in the cabin
and cage issues. Is there a lot of room to run the
wires down through the strut?

Jean, I did look at the PEX tubing also but the only
stuff they have here is very thick walled and to me
that is just extra weight. I would very much like some
pictures.

Bob, That was exactly what I had thought of doing but
since the ribs are already riveted on, I can't drill
holes through them. I was thinking of just attching
with tie wraps. Those plastic sinch type. I also agree
if there is a fire there I have other problems to deal
with.

Keith

--- Bob Patterson <beep@sympatico.ca> wrote:

Hi Keith !

For a reason I've forgotten, the factory does
not like the
idea of running wires down the leading edge of the
wings.
(Might be a worry about weakening the D-tube
structure,
or a fear of the wires wearing a hole over time ....
both
are real possibilities ! )

You may have noticed from some of the comments
....
it's a better idea to run a tube behind the spar,
and to
bring the wires down inside the wing strut, along
with
the pitot tube line. This puts them at the bottom
of the
cockpit, where it's easy to run them up to the
panel.
If you come all the way in to the wing root, the
wires
& tubes exit up top, behind the cage frame, and it's
very awkward to route them down to the back of the
panel, ... and you don't want to drill large holes
in
that cage tubing ! A quick connect fitting at both
ends of the strut will make life a lot easier for
maintenance.

As for material, I wouldn't be too worried 'way
out
there outboard of the strut, as long as the tubing
is
securely fastened. I would really NOT want to use
any 'adhesive only' fasteners - it can get well over

200 degrees inside a wing in summer, especially
if dark paint is used ! Adel clamps, rivetted,
sounds
good to me ... or just made-up aluminum straps -
with rounded edges.

--
......bobp
http://www.prosumers.ca

http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com

http://apatterson2.qhealthzone.com

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------

On Tuesday 20 February 2007 04:08, Keith Leitch
wrote:

I did a search on putting a tube of some sort in

the

leading edge of my wings for wiring and see that

it

was recomended to use a thin wall aluminum. I am
having a hard time finding such a thing over here

in

Hawaii and was wondering if anyone has used the

milky

colored polyethelyne tubing. It is fairly stiff

and I

found it a the Lowe's store. There was also a

clear

vinyl tubing. I know one of the problems with PVC

was

the toxic nature of fumes from it if burned.
Anyone have an idea what to use other than

Aluminum?

Keith

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[Roger Cole]

Here's how I did mine. I bought a 25-ft roll of 3/4-in OD, 5/8-in ID
HDPE tubing (McMaster-Carr, PN 50375 K533, $10.50) and some rubber
cushioned Adel clamps (McMaster-Carr PN 3255 T26, $16.63 for 50). I
made some brackets from some 3/4 x 3/4 x 1/16 aluminum angle and
riveted them to the leading-edge ribs just in front of the main
spar. No need to put a bracket at every rib. Every other rib is
enough. I riveted the ribs to the main spar before I attached the
brackets, so I pre-drilled 3 rivet holes in each bracket and used an
angle drill attachment to drill from the brackets through the ribs.
I screwed the Adel clamps holding the tubing to a pre-drilled hole in
each bracket.

At the solid root rib, I made a hole for a 3/4-in ID grommet and used
a doubler on the rib.

Time will tell if it works. I have completed only one wing and have
a long way to go before the first flight.
-----
Roger Cole, Elite #709
First wing done, second wing started.
rcole927@earthlink.net



Begin forwarded message:

From: Keith Leitch <im_planecrazy@yahoo.com>
Date: February 19, 2007 10:08:11 PM CST
To: Murphy Rebel Builders <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Subject: [rebel-builders] Tube for wiring in the wings
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>

I did a search on putting a tube of some sort in the
leading edge of my wings for wiring and see that it
was recomended to use a thin wall aluminum. I am
having a hard time finding such a thing over here in
Hawaii and was wondering if anyone has used the milky
colored polyethelyne tubing. It is fairly stiff and I
found it a the Lowe's store. There was also a clear
vinyl tubing. I know one of the problems with PVC was
the toxic nature of fumes from it if burned.
Anyone have an idea what to use other than Aluminum?

Keith



______________________________________________________________________
______________
Don't pick lemons.
See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos.
http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html



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[bransom]

My situation is similar -- that is, I don't know enf what the fuselage cage
area will be like to really appreciate the wire routing issues now. My wings
are done, but I put a thin wall AL tube in my leading edge section, and ran it
all the way to the root thinking I'd be able to run wires down the posts. I
think Wayne said he's done em that way, with a wire access hole in the
doubled root rib (and rivets surrounding that hole to reinforce). If it is too
troublesome to route this way, I may just cut the tube inside the LE section,
then reroute from the there into the lift strut. I guess that will be my first use
of the mid-wing inspection hole! ;-) Not sure but what there might be room
to route the wires down the door posts, but not the few lighting wires. It
just seems like it ought to be closer to run down from the top as compared to
down the lift struts, up the floor, then to panel.
-Ben/ 496r

between the front and the main spar. I was just saying
the leading edge in refernce to that skin. Do you have
any pictures of the inside cabin? I would really like
to run the wire all the way to the root and since I
don't have any idea what the finished product will
look like I am haveing a hard time visualizing what
you are saying about routing the wires in the cabin
and cage issues. Is there a lot of room to run the
wires down through the strut?

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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

Everyone is covering this well...I will only add...wires/pitot hoses inside
the wing strut are an absolute PITA ! I also cringe at some of the weakening
I've seen on Rebels and Elites that I've had thru the hanger with holes cut
in the Fus-70 at the most critical compression point.

It's a shorter and easier route taking everything to the root. If you are
running elect fuel gauges you already have wires there anyhow. I did mine
for easy wing removal and used a multi plug. Recepticle is mounted in the
Fus-27 cabin "wing root" panel and a plug on all the wires coming from wing
(landing light/4 wires of strobe/nav light/fuel gauge/pitot heat). This is
especially important if you are using a fuselage based strobe pack vs tip
packs....as you will want the power pack in the back away from your
radios....so wires easily go rearward from the recepticle past the rear wing
attach and back to the power pack. Other wires go forward and thru/around
the carrythru and down to the panel thru the glare shield panel. If you are
using MAM's moulded headliner this area is all covered anyhow nicely hiding
your wires. If you don't want to use the recepticle/plug and just want to
splice the fus and wing wires together.....a pitot tube (1/4" nylon) and 6
or more wires can also EASILY be run in from the root to infront of the
carrythru at the front of the Fus-27 and tucked under the top edge of the
windshield...then down the front of the carrythru post/Fus-9 area.

As for the tube itself...yes I use very light walled 5052 tube and depending
on what all needs to be run dictates size. To mount the tube I use tube
clamps with a 90* fitting on them so they mount right onto the leading edge
rib flanges without any modification.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: <bransom@dcsol.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 9:25 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Tube for wiring in the wings

My situation is similar -- that is, I don't know enf what the fuselage
cage
area will be like to really appreciate the wire routing issues now. My
wings
are done, but I put a thin wall AL tube in my leading edge section, and
ran it
all the way to the root thinking I'd be able to run wires down the posts.
I
think Wayne said he's done em that way, with a wire access hole in the
doubled root rib (and rivets surrounding that hole to reinforce). If it
is too
troublesome to route this way, I may just cut the tube inside the LE
section,
then reroute from the there into the lift strut. I guess that will be my
first use
of the mid-wing inspection hole! ;-) Not sure but what there might be
room
to route the wires down the door posts, but not the few lighting wires.
It
just seems like it ought to be closer to run down from the top as compared
to
down the lift struts, up the floor, then to panel.
-Ben/ 496r

between the front and the main spar. I was just saying
the leading edge in refernce to that skin. Do you have
any pictures of the inside cabin? I would really like
to run the wire all the way to the root and since I
don't have any idea what the finished product will
look like I am haveing a hard time visualizing what
you are saying about routing the wires in the cabin
and cage issues. Is there a lot of room to run the
wires down through the strut?

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