[rebel-builders] Fuel Tanks

[Drew Dalgleish]

At 04:57 PM 2/2/2007 -0500, you wrote:

I read the comments on the fuel system with great interest.Not fond off

the fuel system on the rebel as i have created a bad habit off not wanting
to carry around uncessary pounds off fuel,would rather carry items that i
need.What would be the practical reason to shut off either off your fuel
valves ever while flying.

This is agreat site.


regards: alvin rebel 776 40 Hrs 1000hrs on PA-11

I usually fly with less than half tanks for the same reason. I normally run
one tank dry so I have a better idea of how much fuel I have remaining. I
have had the pickup come unported in a descent but it wasn't a big deal to
change tanks. I used to have a lot more problems with unporting with low
fuel until I changed my vents to a ram air system recommended by Wayne. Now
I can run a tank completely empty by flying slightly wing high on the side
I'm using. Thanks for the changing procedure Walter I always did it which
ever way I felt like without any time between I'm going to try it your way.
Drew



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[Rick Harper]

G'day Alvin & Welcome to the group !

(I'm down here in OZ BTW - ( that's "by the way" Jean !)

It's "standard practise" in just about everything flying - to take off on BOTH tanks, and once you are at your cruising altitude you then switch to the fullest tank ONLY for the first half an hours' flight, ... then back to the other tank for the next half an hours' flight, and so on & so on ... and then BOTH tanks back on for landing - (just in case you need full power / go around )

This means that if "something happens" to the flow rate of one tank (for whatever reason) - you KNOW that the other side WILL flow - because it WAS running fine a half an hour ago !)

IE: Here's a "both taps open" scenario ....

Your happily flying along with BOTH valves open ..... and unbeknownst to you "something" has happened to one of the tanks - call it "tank A" and you either aren't watching your fuel gauges, OR, they are not indicating correctly .... or, you just don't notice the lack of change in the tank level for whatever reason ...

Anyway , ... "Tank A" runs out of fuel - worked up a vacuum in it due to a blockage in the vent system, dead bug jammed in the feed line, lack of fossilised fuel deposits - whatever .... BUT, ... the engine still runs OK - because "tank B" is still feeding it ! ....

BUT - when "tank B" runs out / gets used up / has a separate problem & the engine starts to splutter through fuel starvation and STOPS ...

You think "WHATTHE$#@& !?!?!?!?!?" - WHY ?!?

a) In your PANIC, you don't know which tank is the problem tank if they were both open

b) Even if the gauge is telling you "Tank A" has fuel IN IT ... it still isn't going to give it to you !

c) You now have a FORCED LANDING situation on your hands !

BUT ...

However - If you were running a different tank every half an hour - and then IF one tank developed a problem - you could switch to the other tank an KNOW that it IS going to give you what was in it !

That's why we alternate the tank feeds

Hope this helps

Rick "Biggus" Harper
541R

PS : Please excuse my "odd" spelling .... we use English here in Australia

----- Original Message -----
From: Alvin and Glenys Adams
To: rebel
Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 8:57 AM
Subject: [rebel-builders] Fuel Tanks


I read the comments on the fuel system with great interest.Not fond off the fuel system on the rebel as i have created a bad habit off not wanting to carry around uncessary pounds off fuel,would rather carry items that i need.What would be the practical reason to shut off either off your fuel valves ever while flying.

This is agreat site.


regards: alvin rebel 776 40 Hrs 1000hrs on PA-11



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[WALTER KLATT]

I see what you're saying with that practice, Rick. That's not how I have been doing it, but will have to think about it more.

So far I have just been leaving it on both unless the tanks get unbalanced, which does happen sometimes for some reason. Then I close one until they are balanced again. Also when I am getting low, I will close one to save enough fuel in the other to fly to a safe landing area if I should run out. Not sure if that is the soundest thinking either, but in any case, I never run it that close normally, unless close to home, and am well aware of all my landing spots.

Walter

----- Original Message -----
From: Rick Harper <rjwh@optusnet.com.au>
Date: Friday, February 2, 2007 2:52 pm
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Fuel Tanks

G'day Alvin & Welcome to the group !

(I'm down here in OZ BTW - ( that's "by the way" Jean !)

It's "standard practise" in just about everything flying - to take
off on BOTH tanks, and once you are at your cruising altitude you
then switch to the fullest tank ONLY for the first half an hours'
flight, ... then back to the other tank for the next half an
hours' flight, and so on & so on ... and then BOTH tanks back on
for landing - (just in case you need full power / go around )

This means that if "something happens" to the flow rate of one
tank (for whatever reason) - you KNOW that the other side WILL
flow - because it WAS running fine a half an hour ago !)

IE: Here's a "both taps open" scenario ....

Your happily flying along with BOTH valves open ..... and
unbeknownst to you "something" has happened to one of the tanks -
call it "tank A" and you either aren't watching your fuel gauges,
OR, they are not indicating correctly .... or, you just don't
notice the lack of change in the tank level for whatever reason ...

Anyway , ... "Tank A" runs out of fuel - worked up a vacuum in
it due to a blockage in the vent system, dead bug jammed in the
feed line, lack of fossilised fuel deposits - whatever .... BUT,
... the engine still runs OK - because "tank B" is still feeding
it ! ....

BUT - when "tank B" runs out / gets used up / has a separate
problem & the engine starts to splutter through fuel starvation
and STOPS ...

You think "WHATTHE$#@& !?!?!?!?!?" - WHY ?!?

a) In your PANIC, you don't know which tank is the problem tank if
they were both open

b) Even if the gauge is telling you "Tank A" has fuel IN IT ... it
still isn't going to give it to you !

c) You now have a FORCED LANDING situation on your hands !

BUT ...

However - If you were running a different tank every half an hour -
and then IF one tank developed a problem - you could switch to
the other tank an KNOW that it IS going to give you what was in it !

That's why we alternate the tank feeds

Hope this helps

Rick "Biggus" Harper
541R

PS : Please excuse my "odd" spelling .... we use English here in
Australia
----- Original Message -----
From: Alvin and Glenys Adams
To: rebel
Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 8:57 AM
Subject: [rebel-builders] Fuel Tanks


I read the comments on the fuel system with great interest.Not
fond off the fuel system on the rebel as i have created a bad
habit off not wanting to carry around uncessary pounds off
fuel,would rather carry items that i need.What would be the
practical reason to shut off either off your fuel valves ever
while flying.

This is agreat site.


regards: alvin rebel 776 40 Hrs 1000hrs on PA-11



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[Walter Klatt]

Drew, I never used to think about it either when switching tanks, until a
couple incidents on the ground, and once my engine stumbled when taking off
after refueling. It took me a while to figure out what was going on, but
here is what I learned, and you can try it, to prove it to yourself.

Again, this is only for those Rebels with fuel shut-off valves on top. If
your valve is on the bottom this won't happen. Anyway, test it on the ground
as follows:

1. Run your airplane for a few minutes, so that it can be started later
easily without the need to use your primer.

2. Close one tank, and drain the other through the drain outlet on the
bottom of your gascolator. Be sure to let it drain for a while to get the
last dribbles out to ensure both lines are dry. Be sure to close your
gascolator drain when finished.

3. Get back in your plane, and close the empty tank.

4. Then open your other tank that still has fuel in it, and start your
engine.

5. Your engine will start right up, because there will be some fuel in the
carb bowl. But it won't run long, probably a minute at most, then quit.

6. If you wait a minute, it will then fire right up as before, but again
quit after a short while. You can try this several times with the same
result, and you will not be able to keep your engine running.

7. Then if you open your empty tank, your engine will fire up and stay
running. You can close it later, and still no problem, because the air from
the good tank line is now purged.

Anyway, that's how mine works. If you use your primer before starting, that
also will purge out the air in the line.

If your valve(s) are on the floor, you will always have a siphon head
available, and no air in the tank with fuel in it, so your switching
procedure doesn't matter anymore, other than some good practice such as Rick
described.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Drew

I usually fly with less than half tanks for the same reason. I normally
run
one tank dry so I have a better idea of how much fuel I have remaining. I
have had the pickup come unported in a descent but it wasn't a big deal to
change tanks. I used to have a lot more problems with unporting with low
fuel until I changed my vents to a ram air system recommended by Wayne.
Now
I can run a tank completely empty by flying slightly wing high on the side
I'm using. Thanks for the changing procedure Walter I always did it which
ever way I felt like without any time between I'm going to try it your
way.
Drew



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[Rick Harper]

G'day Walter !

I keep remembering what Jon Johanson (the Aussie who has flown his RV4 around the world East / west, west / east, north & south ) said to me ...

"PLAN for the WORST case scenario on every trip ...
Then, if it DOES happen - it doesn't matter so much , because you already planned for it !"

(and if it doesn't happen - it makes no difference anyway !!!

BTW ...
(Jon is smart / high achieving bloke (man) - ( and a VERY humble, nice person to boot) - and he now has a separate room in his house to hold all his awards,trophies, titles & world records !) ....
All this , and he was told by several people in his life that he was "slow" and would never amount to anything ! ...
(gee - didn't Einstein suffer exactly the same tribulations in his youth ?!?) ...

(Doncha just love it when pompous knowitalls are forced to eat humble pie !!!

Big
----- Original Message -----
From: WALTER KLATT
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 11:39 AM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Fuel Tanks


I see what you're saying with that practice, Rick. That's not how I have been doing it, but will have to think about it more.

So far I have just been leaving it on both unless the tanks get unbalanced, which does happen sometimes for some reason. Then I close one until they are balanced again. Also when I am getting low, I will close one to save enough fuel in the other to fly to a safe landing area if I should run out. Not sure if that is the soundest thinking either, but in any case, I never run it that close normally, unless close to home, and am well aware of all my landing spots.

Walter

----- Original Message -----
From: Rick Harper <rjwh@optusnet.com.au>
Date: Friday, February 2, 2007 2:52 pm
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Fuel Tanks

G'day Alvin & Welcome to the group !

(I'm down here in OZ BTW - ( that's "by the way" Jean !)

It's "standard practise" in just about everything flying - to take
off on BOTH tanks, and once you are at your cruising altitude you
then switch to the fullest tank ONLY for the first half an hours'
flight, ... then back to the other tank for the next half an
hours' flight, and so on & so on ... and then BOTH tanks back on
for landing - (just in case you need full power / go around )

This means that if "something happens" to the flow rate of one
tank (for whatever reason) - you KNOW that the other side WILL
flow - because it WAS running fine a half an hour ago !)

IE: Here's a "both taps open" scenario ....

Your happily flying along with BOTH valves open ..... and
unbeknownst to you "something" has happened to one of the tanks -
call it "tank A" and you either aren't watching your fuel gauges,
OR, they are not indicating correctly .... or, you just don't
notice the lack of change in the tank level for whatever reason ...

Anyway , ... "Tank A" runs out of fuel - worked up a vacuum in
it due to a blockage in the vent system, dead bug jammed in the
feed line, lack of fossilised fuel deposits - whatever .... BUT,
... the engine still runs OK - because "tank B" is still feeding
it ! ....

BUT - when "tank B" runs out / gets used up / has a separate
problem & the engine starts to splutter through fuel starvation
and STOPS ...

You think "WHATTHE$#@& !?!?!?!?!?" - WHY ?!?

a) In your PANIC, you don't know which tank is the problem tank if
they were both open

b) Even if the gauge is telling you "Tank A" has fuel IN IT ... it
still isn't going to give it to you !

c) You now have a FORCED LANDING situation on your hands !

BUT ...

However - If you were running a different tank every half an hour -
and then IF one tank developed a problem - you could switch to
the other tank an KNOW that it IS going to give you what was in it !

That's why we alternate the tank feeds

Hope this helps

Rick "Biggus" Harper
541R

PS : Please excuse my "odd" spelling .... we use English here in
Australia
----- Original Message -----
From: Alvin and Glenys Adams
To: rebel
Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 8:57 AM
Subject: [rebel-builders] Fuel Tanks


I read the comments on the fuel system with great interest.Not
fond off the fuel system on the rebel as i have created a bad
habit off not wanting to carry around uncessary pounds off
fuel,would rather carry items that i need.What would be the
practical reason to shut off either off your fuel valves ever
while flying.

This is agreat site.


regards: alvin rebel 776 40 Hrs 1000hrs on PA-11



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[Walter Klatt]

I should also add that I am talking about gravity feed systems. With an
engine fuel pump, it will probably suck the air through, at least that would
be my guess.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Walter Klatt
Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 5:51 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Fuel Tanks

Drew, I never used to think about it either when switching tanks, until a
couple incidents on the ground, and once my engine stumbled when taking
off
after refueling. It took me a while to figure out what was going on, but
here is what I learned, and you can try it, to prove it to yourself.

Again, this is only for those Rebels with fuel shut-off valves on top. If
your valve is on the bottom this won't happen. Anyway, test it on the
ground
as follows:

1. Run your airplane for a few minutes, so that it can be started later
easily without the need to use your primer.

2. Close one tank, and drain the other through the drain outlet on the
bottom of your gascolator. Be sure to let it drain for a while to get the
last dribbles out to ensure both lines are dry. Be sure to close your
gascolator drain when finished.

3. Get back in your plane, and close the empty tank.

4. Then open your other tank that still has fuel in it, and start your
engine.

5. Your engine will start right up, because there will be some fuel in the
carb bowl. But it won't run long, probably a minute at most, then quit.

6. If you wait a minute, it will then fire right up as before, but again
quit after a short while. You can try this several times with the same
result, and you will not be able to keep your engine running.

7. Then if you open your empty tank, your engine will fire up and stay
running. You can close it later, and still no problem, because the air
from
the good tank line is now purged.

Anyway, that's how mine works. If you use your primer before starting,
that
also will purge out the air in the line.

If your valve(s) are on the floor, you will always have a siphon head
available, and no air in the tank with fuel in it, so your switching
procedure doesn't matter anymore, other than some good practice such as
Rick
described.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of

Drew

I usually fly with less than half tanks for the same reason. I normally
run
one tank dry so I have a better idea of how much fuel I have remaining.

I

have had the pickup come unported in a descent but it wasn't a big deal

to

change tanks. I used to have a lot more problems with unporting with low
fuel until I changed my vents to a ram air system recommended by Wayne.
Now
I can run a tank completely empty by flying slightly wing high on the

side

I'm using. Thanks for the changing procedure Walter I always did it

which

ever way I felt like without any time between I'm going to try it your
way.
Drew



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[Kim Kimball]

Nice Rick. I hadn't really thought about a scenario like that before. That makes a lot of sense. No more put in on BOTH and leave it there for me.

Mike
044SR

----- Original Message -----
From: Rick Harper <rjwh@optusnet.com.au>
Date: Friday, February 2, 2007 1:54 pm
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Fuel Tanks
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com

G'day Alvin & Welcome to the group !

(I'm down here in OZ BTW - ( that's "by the way" Jean !)

It's "standard practise" in just about everything flying - to take
off on BOTH tanks, and once you are at your cruising altitude you
then switch to the fullest tank ONLY for the first half an hours'
flight, ... then back to the other tank for the next half an
hours' flight, and so on & so on ... and then BOTH tanks back on
for landing - (just in case you need full power / go around )

This means that if "something happens" to the flow rate of one
tank (for whatever reason) - you KNOW that the other side WILL
flow - because it WAS running fine a half an hour ago !)

IE: Here's a "both taps open" scenario ....

Your happily flying along with BOTH valves open ..... and
unbeknownst to you "something" has happened to one of the tanks -
call it "tank A" and you either aren't watching your fuel gauges,
OR, they are not indicating correctly .... or, you just don't
notice the lack of change in the tank level for whatever reason ...

Anyway , ... "Tank A" runs out of fuel - worked up a vacuum in
it due to a blockage in the vent system, dead bug jammed in the
feed line, lack of fossilised fuel deposits - whatever .... BUT,
... the engine still runs OK - because "tank B" is still feeding
it ! ....

BUT - when "tank B" runs out / gets used up / has a separate
problem & the engine starts to splutter through fuel starvation
and STOPS ...

You think "WHATTHE$#@& !?!?!?!?!?" - WHY ?!?

a) In your PANIC, you don't know which tank is the problem tank if
they were both open

b) Even if the gauge is telling you "Tank A" has fuel IN IT ... it
still isn't going to give it to you !

c) You now have a FORCED LANDING situation on your hands !

BUT ...

However - If you were running a different tank every half an hour -
and then IF one tank developed a problem - you could switch to
the other tank an KNOW that it IS going to give you what was in it !

That's why we alternate the tank feeds

Hope this helps

Rick "Biggus" Harper
541R

PS : Please excuse my "odd" spelling .... we use English here in
Australia
----- Original Message -----
From: Alvin and Glenys Adams
To: rebel
Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 8:57 AM
Subject: [rebel-builders] Fuel Tanks


I read the comments on the fuel system with great interest.Not
fond off the fuel system on the rebel as i have created a bad
habit off not wanting to carry around uncessary pounds off
fuel,would rather carry items that i need.What would be the
practical reason to shut off either off your fuel valves ever
while flying.

This is agreat site.


regards: alvin rebel 776 40 Hrs 1000hrs on PA-11



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[Rick Harper]

G'day Kim ...

You could have both on for a little while - if you want / need to balance the tanks out a bit - as they will find their own average levels between themselves ..... but - don't forget to return to the alternating tank system after you have finished levelling

Biggus
----- Original Message -----
From: Kim Kimball
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 4:03 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Fuel Tanks


Nice Rick. I hadn't really thought about a scenario like that before. That makes a lot of sense. No more put in on BOTH and leave it there for me.

Mike
044SR

----- Original Message -----
From: Rick Harper <rjwh@optusnet.com.au>
Date: Friday, February 2, 2007 1:54 pm
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Fuel Tanks
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com

G'day Alvin & Welcome to the group !

(I'm down here in OZ BTW - ( that's "by the way" Jean !)

It's "standard practise" in just about everything flying - to take
off on BOTH tanks, and once you are at your cruising altitude you
then switch to the fullest tank ONLY for the first half an hours'
flight, ... then back to the other tank for the next half an
hours' flight, and so on & so on ... and then BOTH tanks back on
for landing - (just in case you need full power / go around )

This means that if "something happens" to the flow rate of one
tank (for whatever reason) - you KNOW that the other side WILL
flow - because it WAS running fine a half an hour ago !)

IE: Here's a "both taps open" scenario ....

Your happily flying along with BOTH valves open ..... and
unbeknownst to you "something" has happened to one of the tanks -
call it "tank A" and you either aren't watching your fuel gauges,
OR, they are not indicating correctly .... or, you just don't
notice the lack of change in the tank level for whatever reason ...

Anyway , ... "Tank A" runs out of fuel - worked up a vacuum in
it due to a blockage in the vent system, dead bug jammed in the
feed line, lack of fossilised fuel deposits - whatever .... BUT,
... the engine still runs OK - because "tank B" is still feeding
it ! ....

BUT - when "tank B" runs out / gets used up / has a separate
problem & the engine starts to splutter through fuel starvation
and STOPS ...

You think "WHATTHE$#@& !?!?!?!?!?" - WHY ?!?

a) In your PANIC, you don't know which tank is the problem tank if
they were both open

b) Even if the gauge is telling you "Tank A" has fuel IN IT ... it
still isn't going to give it to you !

c) You now have a FORCED LANDING situation on your hands !

BUT ...

However - If you were running a different tank every half an hour -
and then IF one tank developed a problem - you could switch to
the other tank an KNOW that it IS going to give you what was in it !

That's why we alternate the tank feeds

Hope this helps

Rick "Biggus" Harper
541R

PS : Please excuse my "odd" spelling .... we use English here in
Australia
----- Original Message -----
From: Alvin and Glenys Adams
To: rebel
Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 8:57 AM
Subject: [rebel-builders] Fuel Tanks


I read the comments on the fuel system with great interest.Not
fond off the fuel system on the rebel as i have created a bad
habit off not wanting to carry around uncessary pounds off
fuel,would rather carry items that i need.What would be the
practical reason to shut off either off your fuel valves ever
while flying.

This is agreat site.


regards: alvin rebel 776 40 Hrs 1000hrs on PA-11



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[Ken]

I felt similar Alvin so I gravity feed to a 2 gallon header tank. The
header tank is my "gascolator" and it is vented. A float sensor warns me
if the header is not full which still gives enough fuel for a power on
precautionary landing. 3 bays of fuel in the right wing and 2 in the
left which gives me about 7 hours on the Subaru. Whether solo or with a
passenger, the only reason to shut off a valve so far has been once or
twice after I've noticed an imbalance after leaving a heavy foot on a
rudder pedal and flying with the ball not centered for awhile. There is
nothing wrong with the factory set up and it obviously satisfies most
builders but do be careful when making any changes. There are references
in the archives regarding the occasional engine issue with unporting
during a sideslip approach with low fuel etc. I have submersible pumps
in the header and mounting it was a challenge, but not having to fiddle
with fuel valves and the ability to run the tanks dry with no worries
were worth a lot to me. I've done the drain all the tanks but one for
landing thing in other airplanes but that works best when the tanks have
a sump and I've never seen any kind of gauge that is accurate when you
are getting down to fumes so you still don't know when to cut your
losses and do a power on precautionary. My header solves that issue.
OTOH some guys have said that switching tanks continually keeps them
aware of their fuel status so... One other thought - it's no surprise
that statistics suggest that good pilots tend to perform well after a
mechanical engine failure but they tend to perform poorly while feeling
"stupid" during a fuel starvation situation!
Ken

Drew Dalgleish wrote:

At 04:57 PM 2/2/2007 -0500, you wrote:

I read the comments on the fuel system with great interest.Not fond off

the fuel system on the rebel as i have created a bad habit off not wanting
to carry around uncessary pounds off fuel,would rather carry items that i
need.What would be the practical reason to shut off either off your fuel
valves ever while flying.

This is agreat site.


regards: alvin rebel 776 40 Hrs 1000hrs on PA-11

I usually fly with less than half tanks for the same reason. I normally run
one tank dry so I have a better idea of how much fuel I have remaining. I
have had the pickup come unported in a descent but it wasn't a big deal to
change tanks. I used to have a lot more problems with unporting with low
fuel until I changed my vents to a ram air system recommended by Wayne. Now
I can run a tank completely empty by flying slightly wing high on the side
I'm using. Thanks for the changing procedure Walter I always did it which
ever way I felt like without any time between I'm going to try it your way.
Drew

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