[rebel-builders] Rebel engines choices

[Jean Poirier]

Hello

I had the same question... and still have it sometime! If you forget the
price, the top choice for a light Rebel is probably the Rotax 914 or the
912S. TBO increase, a lot of reference in the field. I have a 0-235C for
my Rebel. I hope it was a good price but the answer is still couple of
years forward! I am building for a gross weght of 1600 pounds so the choice
was large. For float the O-320 look to be the reference... So I have a
heavy engine for those looking for a light aircraft and a weak 108 hp for
those looking for horsepower! But price was good, performance should be
very good on wheels and skis so... for me it is ok. As many answers as
builders...

Jean
Rebel 747R

Jean Poirier
Pr

[bransom]

I think Jean has it about right with 'as many answers as builders' -- and
he claims to have poor English! :)

I'm wondering what prop folks use for a 912S Rebel. I mean diameter and
pitch, not brand.

-Ben



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[Bob Patterson]

Hi Charlie !

Certainly lots to think about - and more new engines coming.

For those thinking about the Rotec radial and LSA, here are
some radial Rebel numbers for guidance ---

Climb at gross 700 fpm - 850fpm,
Cruise at 3250 rpm 87 kts. - 94 kts (prop pitch changed)
Fuel burn 5-6 usg. per hour

Empty weight of 869 - and that's a painted lightweight Rebel
with flattened tube struts and a fabric tail.

Basically, the Rotec Rebel is heavier than a standard 1,650
Rebel with an O-235 ... and both do not leave a lot of
useful load if you only have 1,320 gross. Is there a maximum
empty weight for LSA ??? Or a minimum useful load ?? I guess
you could call it a single seater, but not much utility there !

At this point, my hands-down choice is still the Rotax 912-S,
for an empty weight of a standard 1,650 Rebel, painted, with
upholstery, of about 725 lb. ! Have flown several 912 Rebels
at this weight or LOWER !! (Lightest was a 1,058 gross U/L Rebel
that weighed 596 lb. - no paint, and just seat cushions...)
The 912 has a lot going for it, besides the lightest installed
weight (about 158 lb incl. intake, exhaust, muffler, antifreeze & oil)
- the gear drive gives lower rpm, allowing a longer prop,
plus almost double the torque of direct drive, for more thrust.
The original 912 Rebel has been flying for over 15 years,
and engine maintenance has been oil changes, new spark plugs,
new air filters, and one set of new carb. floats. !! In
about 1,000 hours, NO problems - just good performance on
wheels and floats ! ... on only 3-4 Imp.gallons/hr. @ 5,400 rpm.


--
......bobp
http://www.prosumers.ca
http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.qhealthzone.com

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Tuesday 12 December 2006 15:19, Charlie Eubanks wrote:

I big thanks to everyone for their comments and thoughts on the different
engine choices for the Rebel. It will be a year plus before I have to
commit to an engine. Thanks to your points and comments. I will use that
time researching these other engines. A lot of changes and improvements can
happen in a year.

Charlie E. 802R

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[Tim Hickey]

Hello, Bob
A couple of questions:
That U/L Rebel that weighed 596 pounds: Does that machine differ from a
standard Rebel in the Airframe department? If so, what are the major
differences?
What are "flattened tube struts"?
And one more thing: Do some people operate a Rebel on floats using the Rotax
engine? I always expected that it would take something more like an O-320 to
drag a Rebel off of the water.

Thanks.

Tim Hickey


----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Patterson" <beep@sympatico.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 7:08 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel engines choices




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[Bob Patterson]

Hi Tim !

The Ultralight Rebel is quite different from the standard
1,650 Rebel, and I wouldn't recommend one to anyone today,
as the weight limits have changed here in Canada, so it's
reason for being has disappeared !

The U/L Rebel is substantially weaker than a standard Rebel,
with thinner metal in the wing spars, and some skins & other
areas. The wing struts are thin wall aluminum tubing flattened
to be more aerodynamic, instead of the sturdy extrusions on
the standard Rebels. It has a fabric covered tail, and lighter
gear legs, with lighter wheels & smaller brakes - all of which lower
the max. gross weight to 1,058 lb. ... hardly desireable these
days !

For all the lightening, there's really only about 50 - 70 lb.
difference between a finished, painted U/L Rebel and a regular
1,650 Rebel airframe. Personally, the small extra weight is
more than worth it for the greatly increased load capacity,
and long-term durability !!

We flew our 80 hp. Rotax 912 powered Rebel on Murphy 1500
straight floats - it performed quite well. It got off in
6 seconds solo, and about 34 seconds with 2 people and 3/4
tanks, and climb was about 400 fpm. Not a skyrocket, but
better than our 85 Hp. Aeronca Super Chief could do !!
Certainly comparable to most light aircraft in that hp. range.

I also flew our 3rd Rebel, with a Lycoming O-235C2-C on
Murphy 1500 amphibs for over 3 years. It did not perform
nearly as well as the 912 Rebel - the extra weight of the
Lyc. was not offset by the small extra power ... you really
DO need a 320 for the extra weight of a Lyc. !! The O-235
was strictly a single-seater on amphibs - other than my
float instructor, I never carried a passenger - not even Anna !

While I definitely would discourage anyone from trying
an O-235 on amphibs (even with the higher output O-235-L2C),
I DO believe that a Rebel with the 912-S WOULD make an
acceptable airplane on 1500 amphibs - in fact, if I ever get
to it, THAT is my 'retirement Rebel' ! :-)

The engine weight makes THAT much of a difference !

--
......bobp
http://www.prosumers.ca
http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.qhealthzone.com

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Tuesday 12 December 2006 22:04, Tim Hickey wrote:

Hello, Bob
A couple of questions:
That U/L Rebel that weighed 596 pounds: Does that machine differ from a
standard Rebel in the Airframe department? If so, what are the major
differences?
What are "flattened tube struts"?
And one more thing: Do some people operate a Rebel on floats using the
Rotax engine? I always expected that it would take something more like an
O-320 to drag a Rebel off of the water.

Thanks.

Tim Hickey


----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Patterson" <beep@sympatico.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 7:08 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel engines choices

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[cosmedi]

Hello Bob,
I agreed with your basic logic; you have the flying hours and the experience to make a valid point; but density altitude. Here in Australia, say 3000' elevation; summer at 95 degrees plus; say density altitude of 6000 feet. Allow as a rule of sum 3% loss of power per 1000 feet; gives 18% loss of power of your rotax at originally 100hp. Now back to 80hp if luckly. So you have to start praying and peddling hard on take off; no trees at the end of the runway unless you want an ag rating!!!! So give me horses(0320+)!!!!! Now remember Bob I am a Tomahawk driver and at this point in time, I have managed to scare myself a few times(plus Rick Harper once). One of the best comments came from Jean(please excuse my non french Jean). He mentioned the rotax 914 turbo. Maybe the best suitable engine. But I do not know anything about their reliability. So more into the pot for comment.

Kind regards,
Greg. G. Elite 724(still building) + now the addition of Angus McKenzie's Stol wing



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[Aurele Lavigne]

I'm sure Bob will have answers, but i have a 912 in my AULA and performance
is reasonably good on floats. My empty weight on wheels is recorded at 601
lbs and on floats, my estimate is about 750 lbs. My friend in Sudbury has
the 912s on full lotus and his empty weight on wheels is 655 lbs and the
difference in performance is noticeable.

Aurele Lavigne
Rebel 063

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Hickey" <tjhickey@iowatelecom.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 10:04 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel engines choices

Hello, Bob
A couple of questions:
That U/L Rebel that weighed 596 pounds: Does that machine differ from a
standard Rebel in the Airframe department? If so, what are the major
differences?
What are "flattened tube struts"?
And one more thing: Do some people operate a Rebel on floats using the
Rotax
engine? I always expected that it would take something more like an O-320
to
drag a Rebel off of the water.

Thanks.

Tim Hickey


----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Patterson" <beep@sympatico.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 7:08 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel engines choices




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