[rebel-builders] Scott tail wheel

[rognal]

Hi Ian,

Take a look at WagAero.com Spring Connector Kit, Tension Type, FAA/PMA'd
Model: SKU: D-205-000. Attaches tailspring to tailwheel. Includes 2
springs, 2 connector clips and 2 linkage chains. $19.95.

This is what I bought for my Alaska Bushwheel (the new Scott 3200). They
are as Wayne described.

Roger Hoffman #687R
Eugene, OR USA!


On 10/3/2006 4:23 PM, allsure@bigpond.net.au wrote to rebel-builders:

-> G'day again
->
-> Now I am confused!
->
-> I will upgrade my springs from MAM to the proper Scott springs. But just
-> what spring set should I use?
->
-> Is ACS a good place to buy them?
->
-> Thanks and regards
->
-> Ian
->
->
->
->
->
-> : BTW...spring coil is 1" diameter x 1 7/8 long. Overall length with spring
-> : hooks is approx 3 3/8"
-> :
-> :
-> :
->





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[IAN DONALDSON]

G'day Garry


Thanks for your response. I have had a look at various tailwheel setups at
our airfield and they are all different.

I look forward to hearing the outcome of your discussion with ACS.

I live in a city called Geelong which is about 45 miles from the state
capital, Melbourne. We are at the very bottom of OZ and if I look really
hard I can see Antarctica from here! <grin>

regards

Ian

:
: With all the experience on the list we haven't yet figured out which
: spring is the right spring. I checked a Citabria today and it had a pair
: of matched springs, 1" diameter, 31 turns on each, no half turn, no
: links or anything. I did not measure but it appeared to be about 6-7"
: long. The darned thing seemed to fit okay and it was a strictly tension
: spring. I am going to phone ACS tomorrow to see if I can confirm the
: correct one that way. In any event, I'm sure the important points are no
: possibility of bottoming as in a compression spring and roughly the
: right spring constant. BTW, where are you in Oz?
:
: Garry
:
: On Wed, 2006-10-04 at 10:23 +1000, IAN DONALDSON wrote:
: > G'day again
: >
: > Now I am confused!
: >
: > I will upgrade my springs from MAM to the proper Scott springs. But just
: > what spring set should I use?
: >
: > Is ACS a good place to buy them?
: >
: > Thanks and regards
: >
: > Ian
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: > : BTW...spring coil is 1" diameter x 1 7/8 long. Overall length with
spring
: > : hooks is approx 3 3/8"
: > :
: > :
: > :
: >
: >
: >
: >
: > -----------------------------------------------------------------
: > List archives located at: https://www.dcsol.com/login
: > username "rebel" password "builder"
: > Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
: > List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
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: >
: >
:
:
:
:
: -----------------------------------------------------------------
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[Bill Maxwell]

No you cant possibly see Antarctica Ian, 'cos I'm in the way!

Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: "IAN DONALDSON" <allsure@bigpond.net.au>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 8:04 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Scott tail wheel

G'day Garry


Thanks for your response. I have had a look at various tailwheel setups at
our airfield and they are all different.

I look forward to hearing the outcome of your discussion with ACS.

I live in a city called Geelong which is about 45 miles from the state
capital, Melbourne. We are at the very bottom of OZ and if I look really
hard I can see Antarctica from here! <grin>

regards

Ian

:
: With all the experience on the list we haven't yet figured out which
: spring is the right spring. I checked a Citabria today and it had a pair
: of matched springs, 1" diameter, 31 turns on each, no half turn, no
: links or anything. I did not measure but it appeared to be about 6-7"
: long. The darned thing seemed to fit okay and it was a strictly tension
: spring. I am going to phone ACS tomorrow to see if I can confirm the
: correct one that way. In any event, I'm sure the important points are no
: possibility of bottoming as in a compression spring and roughly the
: right spring constant. BTW, where are you in Oz?
:
: Garry
:
: On Wed, 2006-10-04 at 10:23 +1000, IAN DONALDSON wrote:
: > G'day again
: >
: > Now I am confused!
: >
: > I will upgrade my springs from MAM to the proper Scott springs. But
just
: > what spring set should I use?
: >
: > Is ACS a good place to buy them?
: >
: > Thanks and regards
: >
: > Ian
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: > : BTW...spring coil is 1" diameter x 1 7/8 long. Overall length with
spring
: > : hooks is approx 3 3/8"
: > :
: > :
: > :
: >
: >
: >
: >
: > -----------------------------------------------------------------
: > List archives located at: https://www.dcsol.com/login
: > username "rebel" password "builder"
: > Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
: > List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
: > -----------------------------------------------------------------
: >
: >
: >
:
:
:
:
: -----------------------------------------------------------------
: List archives located at: https://www.dcsol.com/login
: username "rebel" password "builder"
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[Garry Wright]

Ian,

I spoke with Tim at ACS this am. He says both the lightweight p/n 2151
and the heavy duty p/n 06-00008 springs are used with the 3200 and both
are PMA'd for the job. Choice is a matter of preference - stiff or
light.

From this I conclude that the actual spring constant is not critical.

The only critical item is that it be a tension spring, not a compression
spring. Bob Patterson does not like the lightweight springs.

Rough dimension diameter wise are

Light weight - 7/8" dia
Heavy duty - 1 1/4" dia

Conclusion - make it fit with the preferred tension and away you go.

Cheers to Geelong,

Garry

On Wed, 2006-10-04 at 20:04 +1000, IAN DONALDSON wrote:

G'day Garry


Thanks for your response. I have had a look at various tailwheel setups at
our airfield and they are all different.

I look forward to hearing the outcome of your discussion with ACS.

I live in a city called Geelong which is about 45 miles from the state
capital, Melbourne. We are at the very bottom of OZ and if I look really
hard I can see Antarctica from here! <grin>

regards

Ian

:
: With all the experience on the list we haven't yet figured out which
: spring is the right spring. I checked a Citabria today and it had a pair
: of matched springs, 1" diameter, 31 turns on each, no half turn, no
: links or anything. I did not measure but it appeared to be about 6-7"
: long. The darned thing seemed to fit okay and it was a strictly tension
: spring. I am going to phone ACS tomorrow to see if I can confirm the
: correct one that way. In any event, I'm sure the important points are no
: possibility of bottoming as in a compression spring and roughly the
: right spring constant. BTW, where are you in Oz?
:
: Garry
:
: On Wed, 2006-10-04 at 10:23 +1000, IAN DONALDSON wrote:
: > G'day again
: >
: > Now I am confused!
: >
: > I will upgrade my springs from MAM to the proper Scott springs. But just
: > what spring set should I use?
: >
: > Is ACS a good place to buy them?
: >
: > Thanks and regards
: >
: > Ian
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: > : BTW...spring coil is 1" diameter x 1 7/8 long. Overall length with
spring
: > : hooks is approx 3 3/8"
: > :
: > :
: > :
: >
: >
: >
: >
: > -----------------------------------------------------------------
: > List archives located at: https://www.dcsol.com/login
: > username "rebel" password "builder"
: > Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
: > List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
: > -----------------------------------------------------------------
: >
: >
: >
:
:
:
:
: -----------------------------------------------------------------
: List archives located at: https://www.dcsol.com/login
: username "rebel" password "builder"
: Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
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[sketch2006]

Greetings from North America,

I would presume that the airfield that Ian mentioned would be Avalon, true?

Regards, Jim

-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Bill Maxwell" <wrmaxwell@bigpond.com>

No you cant possibly see Antarctica Ian, 'cos I'm in the way!

Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: "IAN DONALDSON"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 8:04 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Scott tail wheel

G'day Garry


Thanks for your response. I have had a look at various tailwheel setups at
our airfield and they are all different.

I look forward to hearing the outcome of your discussion with ACS.

I live in a city called Geelong which is about 45 miles from the state
capital, Melbourne. We are at the very bottom of OZ and if I look really
hard I can see Antarctica from here!

regards

Ian

:
: With all the experience on the list we haven't yet figured out which
: spring is the right spring. I checked a Citabria today and it had a pair
: of matched springs, 1" diameter, 31 turns on each, no half turn, no
: links or anything. I did not measure but it appeared to be about 6-7"
: long. The darned thing seemed to fit okay and it was a strictly tension
: spring. I am going to phone ACS tomorrow to see if I can confirm the
: correct one that way. In any event, I'm sure the important points are no
: possibility of bottoming as in a compression spring and roughly the
: right spring constant. BTW, where are you in Oz?
:
: Garry
:
: On Wed, 2006-10-04 at 10:23 +1000, IAN DONALDSON wrote:
: > G'day again
: >
: > Now I am confused!
: >
: > I will upgrade my springs from MAM to the proper Scott springs. But
just
: > what spring set should I use?
: >
: > Is ACS a good place to buy them?
: >
: > Thanks and regards
: >
: > Ian
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: > : BTW...spring coil is 1" diameter x 1 7/8 long. Overall length with
spring
: > : hooks is approx 3 3/8"
: > :
: > :
: > :
: >
: >
: >
: >
: > -----------------------------------------------------------------
: > List archives located at: https://www.dcsol.com/login
: > username "rebel" password "builder"
: > Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
: > List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
: > -----------------------------------------------------------------
: >
: >
: >
:
:
:
:
: -----------------------------------------------------------------
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: username "rebel" password "builder"
: Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
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:
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[Bill Maxwell]

Dont know Jim. I cant see from here :).

Ian will have to tell you when he comes home this evening but I doubt it
would be Avalon. Got fairly commercial and expensive from what I hear.

Bill
Powranna, Tasmania
----- Original Message -----
From: <sketch2006@comcast.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2006 12:24 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Scott tail wheel

Greetings from North America,

I would presume that the airfield that Ian mentioned would be Avalon,
true?

Regards, Jim

-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Bill Maxwell" <wrmaxwell@bigpond.com>

No you cant possibly see Antarctica Ian, 'cos I'm in the way!

Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: "IAN DONALDSON"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 8:04 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Scott tail wheel

G'day Garry


Thanks for your response. I have had a look at various tailwheel setups
at
our airfield and they are all different.

I look forward to hearing the outcome of your discussion with ACS.

I live in a city called Geelong which is about 45 miles from the state
capital, Melbourne. We are at the very bottom of OZ and if I look
really
hard I can see Antarctica from here!

regards

Ian

:
: With all the experience on the list we haven't yet figured out which
: spring is the right spring. I checked a Citabria today and it had a
pair
: of matched springs, 1" diameter, 31 turns on each, no half turn, no
: links or anything. I did not measure but it appeared to be about 6-7"
: long. The darned thing seemed to fit okay and it was a strictly
tension
: spring. I am going to phone ACS tomorrow to see if I can confirm the
: correct one that way. In any event, I'm sure the important points are
no
: possibility of bottoming as in a compression spring and roughly the
: right spring constant. BTW, where are you in Oz?
:
: Garry
:
: On Wed, 2006-10-04 at 10:23 +1000, IAN DONALDSON wrote:
: > G'day again
: >
: > Now I am confused!
: >
: > I will upgrade my springs from MAM to the proper Scott springs. But
just
: > what spring set should I use?
: >
: > Is ACS a good place to buy them?
: >
: > Thanks and regards
: >
: > Ian
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: > : BTW...spring coil is 1" diameter x 1 7/8 long. Overall length
with
spring
: > : hooks is approx 3 3/8"
: > :
: > :
: > :
: >
: >
: >
: >
: > -----------------------------------------------------------------
: > List archives located at: https://www.dcsol.com/login
: > username "rebel" password "builder"
: > Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
: > List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
: > -----------------------------------------------------------------
: >
: >
: >
:
:
:
:
: -----------------------------------------------------------------
: List archives located at: https://www.dcsol.com/login
: username "rebel" password "builder"
: Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
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:
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[IAN DONALDSON]

G'day Garry

OK. Now I have not had any experience with any of the springs and I would
like some advice on just what spring tension to select.

What difference would the tensions make to the operation of the wheel and
the handling of the aircraft?

regards

Ian


: Conclusion - make it fit with the preferred tension and away you go.
:
:




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[Garry Wright]

Ian,

I have not flown a 3200 before, except on a Citabria. The only
difference is how much the tailwheel will actually turn when you step on
the rudder. If you don't loose lock, one might hope to be able to
control the tailwheel fairly vigorously with a stiffer spring, but I
doubt that is as easy as with compression springs. If compression
springs are tight, you can bottom them and then have direct
control(until breakout). I am going to go with the heavy duty tension
springs because of what I am used to, and Bob's comments. I think they
can be fairly stiff springs without breaking the arm - I believe the
arms break when the compression springs are bottomed hard and the wheel
has a reason not to turn.

The other factor I can think of is the angle of the axis of the
tailwheel. If the tailwheel is severely trailing in stance, I suspect
any type of spring would have difficulty in turning it much. My axis
will be pretty close to vertical loaded only with fuel.

I'm sure others on the group have more experience and can comment
further. Roger Hoffman might be able to measure the spring constant
before installing the Scott springs and let us know. ie - how much does
x pounds stretch the spring?

Garry

On Thu, 2006-10-05 at 22:24 +1000, IAN DONALDSON wrote:

G'day Garry

OK. Now I have not had any experience with any of the springs and I would
like some advice on just what spring tension to select.

What difference would the tensions make to the operation of the wheel and
the handling of the aircraft?

regards

Ian


: Conclusion - make it fit with the preferred tension and away you go.
:
:




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[Ian Donaldson]

G'day

Here ia a website that offers an interesting tailwheel.

http://www.irondesign-airparts.com/index.htm


regards

Ian Donaldson



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[Ian Donaldson]

G'day

I have a Scott 3200 tailwheel on my Rebel and I am using the standard
springs as supplied by MAM for their tailwheel. However after listening to
the discussions regarding appropriate springs I have purchased a standard
set of Scott tailwheel springs.

Now what I have found is that the Scott springs (light duty) are extremely
rigid and pulling them by hand I can't make them expand in the slightest.
What concerns me is that they are so rigid they will not provide any shock
absorbing action and just transmit all the shock loads directly back to the
rudder post (etc).

I have noticed that with the standard MAM springs they move quite a lot but
still provide adequate control over the tail wheel. Is there a problem with
using the MAM springs?

Anyone have any input?

Thanks and regards

Ian Donaldson





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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

The only problem you will have Ian is the day you have the tailwheel stuck
in mud..... after turning around and you jump on the opposite rudder pedal
to straighten back out without rolling straight forward first. You will
bottom the compression spring and put undo stress on the tailwheel steering
arm. This, that I have witnessed first hand, can crack the arm...and of
course puts more stress on the rudder horn than the tension spring could
ever think of.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ian Donaldson" <allsure@bigpond.net.au>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2006 8:40 PM
Subject: [rebel-builders] Scott tail wheel

G'day

I have a Scott 3200 tailwheel on my Rebel and I am using the standard
springs as supplied by MAM for their tailwheel. However after listening to
the discussions regarding appropriate springs I have purchased a standard
set of Scott tailwheel springs.

Now what I have found is that the Scott springs (light duty) are extremely
rigid and pulling them by hand I can't make them expand in the slightest.
What concerns me is that they are so rigid they will not provide any shock
absorbing action and just transmit all the shock loads directly back to
the
rudder post (etc).

I have noticed that with the standard MAM springs they move quite a lot
but
still provide adequate control over the tail wheel. Is there a problem
with
using the MAM springs?

Anyone have any input?

Thanks and regards

Ian Donaldson





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[Mike Betti]

I can believe that! I am not too impressed by the rudder horn size or that
on my airplane the chains are not pulling the horn exactly inline, that is,
putting stress which is trying to pull the horn plate off the bottom of the
rudder, if you get what I mean. I'm using the outback tailwheel MAM supplies
with the pnuematic tire on it. I talked to Stephane at OSH about the chain
tensions and he said they should have a little stack in them. I find I
either have too much slack or if I take another link out I have to compress
the springs a little. MAM supplied some longer style compression springs,
look like screen door hardware. I bought the compression spring kit ACS
sells for $20, it has some shorter springs in it.
I am still not sure about this rigging or springs, they seem a little stiff
on my rudder horn.
Mike Betti
771E
----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2006 7:58 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Scott tail wheel

The only problem you will have Ian is the day you have the tailwheel stuck
in mud..... after turning around and you jump on the opposite rudder pedal
to straighten back out without rolling straight forward first. You will
bottom the compression spring and put undo stress on the tailwheel
steering
arm. This, that I have witnessed first hand, can crack the arm...and of
course puts more stress on the rudder horn than the tension spring could
ever think of.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ian Donaldson" <allsure@bigpond.net.au>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2006 8:40 PM
Subject: [rebel-builders] Scott tail wheel

G'day

I have a Scott 3200 tailwheel on my Rebel and I am using the standard
springs as supplied by MAM for their tailwheel. However after listening
to
the discussions regarding appropriate springs I have purchased a standard
set of Scott tailwheel springs.

Now what I have found is that the Scott springs (light duty) are
extremely
rigid and pulling them by hand I can't make them expand in the slightest.
What concerns me is that they are so rigid they will not provide any
shock
absorbing action and just transmit all the shock loads directly back to
the
rudder post (etc).

I have noticed that with the standard MAM springs they move quite a lot
but
still provide adequate control over the tail wheel. Is there a problem
with
using the MAM springs?

Anyone have any input?

Thanks and regards

Ian Donaldson





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[Ian Donaldson]

G'day Wayne

Thanks for the response

I felt that the almost rigid springs would have the same effect as the MAM
spring bottoming out!
I will take your advice and fit the Scott springs.

Somehow I don't think that mud will be a problem for a long time. We are in
the middle of a 10 year drought and there is no relief in sight!

regards

Ian


: The only problem you will have Ian is the day you have the tailwheel stuck
: in mud..... after turning around and you jump on the opposite rudder pedal
: to straighten back out without rolling straight forward first. You will
: bottom the compression spring and put undo stress on the tailwheel
steering
: arm. This, that I have witnessed first hand, can crack the arm...and of
: course puts more stress on the rudder horn than the tension spring could
: ever think of.
:




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[Bob Patterson]

Hi Mike !

Believe it or not, the longer springs Murphy supplied are
probably better for you. There should be about 1/2" of sag,
measured in the middle of the distance from tailwheel horn to
rudder horn. This will allow more swivel and easier kick-out,
giving smaller turns.

Remember, those are 3/16" stainless rivets holding that
horn on !! Never heard of ANYONE even loosening one !! :-)

--
......bobp
http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.qhealthzone.com

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Sunday 22 October 2006 09:38 pm, Mike Betti wrote:

I can believe that! I am not too impressed by the rudder horn size or that
on my airplane the chains are not pulling the horn exactly inline, that is,
putting stress which is trying to pull the horn plate off the bottom of the
rudder, if you get what I mean. I'm using the outback tailwheel MAM supplies
with the pnuematic tire on it. I talked to Stephane at OSH about the chain
tensions and he said they should have a little stack in them. I find I
either have too much slack or if I take another link out I have to compress
the springs a little. MAM supplied some longer style compression springs,
look like screen door hardware. I bought the compression spring kit ACS
sells for $20, it has some shorter springs in it.
I am still not sure about this rigging or springs, they seem a little stiff
on my rudder horn.
Mike Betti
771E
----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2006 7:58 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Scott tail wheel

The only problem you will have Ian is the day you have the tailwheel stuck
in mud..... after turning around and you jump on the opposite rudder pedal
to straighten back out without rolling straight forward first. You will
bottom the compression spring and put undo stress on the tailwheel
steering
arm. This, that I have witnessed first hand, can crack the arm...and of
course puts more stress on the rudder horn than the tension spring could
ever think of.

Wayne

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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

I wasn't suggesting the rudder horn would crack....but indead the Scott 3200
tail wheel steering arm will go first!

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Betti" <mbetti@up.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2006 9:38 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Scott tail wheel

I can believe that! I am not too impressed by the rudder horn size or that
on my airplane the chains are not pulling the horn exactly inline, that
is,
putting stress which is trying to pull the horn plate off the bottom of
the
rudder, if you get what I mean. I'm using the outback tailwheel MAM
supplies
with the pnuematic tire on it. I talked to Stephane at OSH about the chain
tensions and he said they should have a little stack in them. I find I
either have too much slack or if I take another link out I have to
compress
the springs a little. MAM supplied some longer style compression springs,
look like screen door hardware. I bought the compression spring kit ACS
sells for $20, it has some shorter springs in it.
I am still not sure about this rigging or springs, they seem a little
stiff
on my rudder horn.
Mike Betti
771E
----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2006 7:58 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Scott tail wheel

The only problem you will have Ian is the day you have the tailwheel
stuck
in mud..... after turning around and you jump on the opposite rudder
pedal
to straighten back out without rolling straight forward first. You will
bottom the compression spring and put undo stress on the tailwheel
steering
arm. This, that I have witnessed first hand, can crack the arm...and of
course puts more stress on the rudder horn than the tension spring could
ever think of.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ian Donaldson" <allsure@bigpond.net.au>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2006 8:40 PM
Subject: [rebel-builders] Scott tail wheel

G'day

I have a Scott 3200 tailwheel on my Rebel and I am using the standard
springs as supplied by MAM for their tailwheel. However after listening
to
the discussions regarding appropriate springs I have purchased a
standard
set of Scott tailwheel springs.

Now what I have found is that the Scott springs (light duty) are
extremely
rigid and pulling them by hand I can't make them expand in the
slightest.
What concerns me is that they are so rigid they will not provide any
shock
absorbing action and just transmit all the shock loads directly back to
the
rudder post (etc).

I have noticed that with the standard MAM springs they move quite a lot
but
still provide adequate control over the tail wheel. Is there a problem
with
using the MAM springs?

Anyone have any input?

Thanks and regards

Ian Donaldson





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