[rebel-builders] vortex generators

[Walter Klatt]

I used 3 inch spacing on the wings, which worked perfectly to fit in between
the ribs and rivets, and have them centered at the 10% chord position. You
only need one set if you just do the wings. I would try that first. Don't
think you need them on the rudder, but on wheels maybe on the bottom of the
hor stab, just ahead of the elevator hinge. I found his templates had photo
copying error, and were not exactly the correct size, so I made my own. I
would think that 1.5 inch spacing there should be sufficient. I only used
them on the wings for the Rebel.

One thing that I have noticed with the VGs is that when the Rebel is heavily
loaded, or at higher elevations, the VGS seem to have more drag initially on
take-off. I guess that's because they create more lift (which creates drag).
As a result I may have to modify my take-off technique where I start off
with full flaps now. We were up at Thomas Lake yesterday (3000 feet, glassy
water) and that's where I noticed it. At sea level, it just lifts early, but
even there I noticed that I need to give it more time in ground effect
before it gets up to climb speed and I can pull up.

Doesn't seem to be any difference in cruise, though, flying with Bruce and
Julius here.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Garry
Wright
Sent: July 12, 2006 5:15 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] vortex generators

Walter,

How many sets of these things did you buy for your rebel? I spoke with
Harrison and he suggests 1" spacing on the rudder and 3" on the wing.
What spacings did you use and did you do the rudder at all?

Garry




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[Garry Wright]

Thanks Walter. Think I will try the wings only on wheels and see how it
makes out.

Garry

On Wed, 2006-07-12 at 06:48 -0700, Walter Klatt wrote:

I used 3 inch spacing on the wings, which worked perfectly to fit in between
the ribs and rivets, and have them centered at the 10% chord position. You
only need one set if you just do the wings. I would try that first. Don't
think you need them on the rudder, but on wheels maybe on the bottom of the
hor stab, just ahead of the elevator hinge. I found his templates had photo
copying error, and were not exactly the correct size, so I made my own. I
would think that 1.5 inch spacing there should be sufficient. I only used
them on the wings for the Rebel.

One thing that I have noticed with the VGs is that when the Rebel is heavily
loaded, or at higher elevations, the VGS seem to have more drag initially on
take-off. I guess that's because they create more lift (which creates drag).
As a result I may have to modify my take-off technique where I start off
with full flaps now. We were up at Thomas Lake yesterday (3000 feet, glassy
water) and that's where I noticed it. At sea level, it just lifts early, but
even there I noticed that I need to give it more time in ground effect
before it gets up to climb speed and I can pull up.

Doesn't seem to be any difference in cruise, though, flying with Bruce and
Julius here.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Garry
Wright
Sent: July 12, 2006 5:15 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] vortex generators

Walter,

How many sets of these things did you buy for your rebel? I spoke with
Harrison and he suggests 1" spacing on the rudder and 3" on the wing.
What spacings did you use and did you do the rudder at all?

Garry




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[Walter Klatt]

Doesn't surprise me to hear those results, Garry. My stall speeds were still
higher than yours with my higher gross weight, but I experienced that same
10 mph reduction with the clean stall. It surprised the heck out of me when
I stalled it the first time with the VGs. The first thing I noticed was the
higher nose up angle, but couldn't believe how my ASI kept going down and
down, before it would finally stall. That's why I had to take them off and
fly again just to confirm what my ASI stall was without the VGs.

On floats, I don't notice much different performance for landing or
take-off. I think that is because on floats you can't utilize that higher
angle of attack that the VGs like. However, I have had to modify my float
take-offs to start with no flap and then add flap after being on the step.
That's because I notice a much higher drag if I start with full flaps as I
did before the VGs, and my take-offs will actually be longer then. The
exception is when in a strong wind. Then I can start with full flaps with
the VGs and be up very soon after getting on plane.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Garry
Wright
Sent: September 1, 2006 5:06 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] vortex generators

Following up on the earlier thread, I now have the Harrison Design VG's
on FOKM - main wing only. FOKM is on wheels so results apply slightly
differently from what Walter found but ..

Stall - clean without 39 mph IAS
- clean with vg's 29 mph IAS

I really don't have much idea what the TAS is but there is a very real
difference in stall speed - weight was about 1400#. DA at the time was
approx 7500' ASL.

Slow flight stability is noticeably better than without the vg's. Less
of the sloppiness in aileron response that one gets just above the
stall.

The real proof of the pudding comes on landing slow and short. When I
touched down I used all of the lift available from the vg's and my
touchdown speed was noticeably slower than without vg's. The tires
hardly squealed at all and the rollout was so short I felt a little
silly taxiing down the rest of the runway to clear via the taxiway at
the other end. It felt like a bicycle could easily keep up with the
plane at touchdown. I also had light gusting crosswinds (10 knots) which
were much easier to handle than formerly.

My setup is 48 per side, 3 inch spacing, centered 7" back of leading
edge which is virtually identical to Walter's arrangement I think. My 7"
back is with the tails of the vg's butting against the 3rd rivit line.

The only disadvantage is cleaning the wing in the winter. I don't plan
on much of that so would do this again on any other Rebel.

Garry

BTW - thanks for the tip Walter.




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[Garry Wright]

Yes - all that figures as logical. The results are very impressive and
gratifying.

G

On Fri, 2006-09-01 at 17:32 -0700, Walter Klatt wrote:

Doesn't surprise me to hear those results, Garry. My stall speeds were still
higher than yours with my higher gross weight, but I experienced that same
10 mph reduction with the clean stall. It surprised the heck out of me when
I stalled it the first time with the VGs. The first thing I noticed was the
higher nose up angle, but couldn't believe how my ASI kept going down and
down, before it would finally stall. That's why I had to take them off and
fly again just to confirm what my ASI stall was without the VGs.

On floats, I don't notice much different performance for landing or
take-off. I think that is because on floats you can't utilize that higher
angle of attack that the VGs like. However, I have had to modify my float
take-offs to start with no flap and then add flap after being on the step.
That's because I notice a much higher drag if I start with full flaps as I
did before the VGs, and my take-offs will actually be longer then. The
exception is when in a strong wind. Then I can start with full flaps with
the VGs and be up very soon after getting on plane.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Garry
Wright
Sent: September 1, 2006 5:06 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] vortex generators

Following up on the earlier thread, I now have the Harrison Design VG's
on FOKM - main wing only. FOKM is on wheels so results apply slightly
differently from what Walter found but ..

Stall - clean without 39 mph IAS
- clean with vg's 29 mph IAS

I really don't have much idea what the TAS is but there is a very real
difference in stall speed - weight was about 1400#. DA at the time was
approx 7500' ASL.

Slow flight stability is noticeably better than without the vg's. Less
of the sloppiness in aileron response that one gets just above the
stall.

The real proof of the pudding comes on landing slow and short. When I
touched down I used all of the lift available from the vg's and my
touchdown speed was noticeably slower than without vg's. The tires
hardly squealed at all and the rollout was so short I felt a little
silly taxiing down the rest of the runway to clear via the taxiway at
the other end. It felt like a bicycle could easily keep up with the
plane at touchdown. I also had light gusting crosswinds (10 knots) which
were much easier to handle than formerly.

My setup is 48 per side, 3 inch spacing, centered 7" back of leading
edge which is virtually identical to Walter's arrangement I think. My 7"
back is with the tails of the vg's butting against the 3rd rivit line.

The only disadvantage is cleaning the wing in the winter. I don't plan
on much of that so would do this again on any other Rebel.

Garry

BTW - thanks for the tip Walter.




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[Drew Dalgleish]

At 06:06 PM 9/1/2006 -0600, you wrote:

Following up on the earlier thread, I now have the Harrison Design VG's
on FOKM - main wing only. FOKM is on wheels so results apply slightly
differently from what Walter found but ..

Stall - clean without 39 mph IAS
- clean with vg's 29 mph IAS

I really don't have much idea what the TAS is but there is a very real
difference in stall speed - weight was about 1400#. DA at the time was
approx 7500' ASL.

Slow flight stability is noticeably better than without the vg's. Less
of the sloppiness in aileron response that one gets just above the
stall.

The real proof of the pudding comes on landing slow and short. When I
touched down I used all of the lift available from the vg's and my
touchdown speed was noticeably slower than without vg's. The tires
hardly squealed at all and the rollout was so short I felt a little
silly taxiing down the rest of the runway to clear via the taxiway at
the other end. It felt like a bicycle could easily keep up with the
plane at touchdown. I also had light gusting crosswinds (10 knots) which
were much easier to handle than formerly.

My setup is 48 per side, 3 inch spacing, centered 7" back of leading
edge which is virtually identical to Walter's arrangement I think. My 7"
back is with the tails of the vg's butting against the 3rd rivit line.

The only disadvantage is cleaning the wing in the winter. I don't plan
on much of that so would do this again on any other Rebel.

Garry

BTW - thanks for the tip Walter.

Thanks for putting up your numbers Garry. 7500'DA? how hot was it. I went
up that high coming home from the cottage on monday to get over some broken
cloud and bouncy hazy underneath. I haven't been that high for years what a
view :) I was impressed with my new engine even that high with almost a
full load I was climbing over 500fpm.
Drew



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[Garry Wright]

It was in the high 20's on the ground here and tests were actually at
6500 feet. I did not calc the DA, just guessed. That isn't all that high
for here because the airport is at 3400 feet and I like some altitude to
do that sort of test. It only takes FOKM about 3 minutes to get up 3000
feet with just me in it. After looking at the calc it is actually more
like 8500' DA but it really doesn't matter to the tests. Everything is
IAS anyway so it wouldn't matter how high one was.

Garry

On Fri, 2006-09-01 at 22:50 -0400, Drew Dalgleish wrote:

At 06:06 PM 9/1/2006 -0600, you wrote:

Following up on the earlier thread, I now have the Harrison Design VG's
on FOKM - main wing only. FOKM is on wheels so results apply slightly
differently from what Walter found but ..

Stall - clean without 39 mph IAS
- clean with vg's 29 mph IAS

I really don't have much idea what the TAS is but there is a very real
difference in stall speed - weight was about 1400#. DA at the time was
approx 7500' ASL.

Slow flight stability is noticeably better than without the vg's. Less
of the sloppiness in aileron response that one gets just above the
stall.

The real proof of the pudding comes on landing slow and short. When I
touched down I used all of the lift available from the vg's and my
touchdown speed was noticeably slower than without vg's. The tires
hardly squealed at all and the rollout was so short I felt a little
silly taxiing down the rest of the runway to clear via the taxiway at
the other end. It felt like a bicycle could easily keep up with the
plane at touchdown. I also had light gusting crosswinds (10 knots) which
were much easier to handle than formerly.

My setup is 48 per side, 3 inch spacing, centered 7" back of leading
edge which is virtually identical to Walter's arrangement I think. My 7"
back is with the tails of the vg's butting against the 3rd rivit line.

The only disadvantage is cleaning the wing in the winter. I don't plan
on much of that so would do this again on any other Rebel.

Garry

BTW - thanks for the tip Walter.

Thanks for putting up your numbers Garry. 7500'DA? how hot was it. I went
up that high coming home from the cottage on monday to get over some broken
cloud and bouncy hazy underneath. I haven't been that high for years what a
view :) I was impressed with my new engine even that high with almost a
full load I was climbing over 500fpm.
Drew



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[Walter Klatt]

Garry, I suspect you may be getting considerable pitot angle error which is
why your stall speed is so much lower than mine, and with the higher angle
of attack the VGs allow. In my case my pitot tube on the leading wing edge
is bent down slightly due to fueling encounters, so it may be closer to the
airflow direction at higher angles of attack. It's been a while, but I
thought in the past I did a GPS verification of mine at 50 mph and it was
pretty accurate then.

But like you, I also saw a full 10 mph reduction in clean stall speed. I
haven't even tried it yet with full flaps. Wonder what that would be...
Almost all my flying currently is with my wife and the plane loaded for the
lake, and don't think she would be very pleased if I tried some stalls with
her along.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Garry
Wright
Sent: September 2, 2006 7:20 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] vortex generators

It was in the high 20's on the ground here and tests were actually at
6500 feet. I did not calc the DA, just guessed. That isn't all that high
for here because the airport is at 3400 feet and I like some altitude to
do that sort of test. It only takes FOKM about 3 minutes to get up 3000
feet with just me in it. After looking at the calc it is actually more
like 8500' DA but it really doesn't matter to the tests. Everything is
IAS anyway so it wouldn't matter how high one was.

Garry

On Fri, 2006-09-01 at 22:50 -0400, Drew Dalgleish wrote:

At 06:06 PM 9/1/2006 -0600, you wrote:

Following up on the earlier thread, I now have the Harrison Design VG's
on FOKM - main wing only. FOKM is on wheels so results apply slightly
differently from what Walter found but ..

Stall - clean without 39 mph IAS
- clean with vg's 29 mph IAS

I really don't have much idea what the TAS is but there is a very real
difference in stall speed - weight was about 1400#. DA at the time was
approx 7500' ASL.

Slow flight stability is noticeably better than without the vg's. Less
of the sloppiness in aileron response that one gets just above the
stall.

The real proof of the pudding comes on landing slow and short. When I
touched down I used all of the lift available from the vg's and my
touchdown speed was noticeably slower than without vg's. The tires
hardly squealed at all and the rollout was so short I felt a little
silly taxiing down the rest of the runway to clear via the taxiway at
the other end. It felt like a bicycle could easily keep up with the
plane at touchdown. I also had light gusting crosswinds (10 knots) which
were much easier to handle than formerly.

My setup is 48 per side, 3 inch spacing, centered 7" back of leading
edge which is virtually identical to Walter's arrangement I think. My 7"
back is with the tails of the vg's butting against the 3rd rivit line.

The only disadvantage is cleaning the wing in the winter. I don't plan
on much of that so would do this again on any other Rebel.

Garry

BTW - thanks for the tip Walter.

Thanks for putting up your numbers Garry. 7500'DA? how hot was it. I went
up that high coming home from the cottage on monday to get over some

broken

cloud and bouncy hazy underneath. I haven't been that high for years what

a

view :) I was impressed with my new engine even that high with almost a
full load I was climbing over 500fpm.
Drew



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[Garry Wright]

Yes, I have about the same thing for a pitot tube but it is pretty much
straight out and I try to keep it consistent because of the effect on
the numbers. The actual values don't mean diddly but the spread is
impressive. I have not calibrated my ASI against the GPS at any speed
yet. Being at high altitude there is always a big correction for that.

Like you I haven't tried full flaps except on landing and I already
described that. Bob P said he tried a full power stall in someone's
plane and the angle of attack was phenomenal.

My wife hasn't even flown with me yet... Probably will this fall though
and no chance of any adventurous behavior with her along. : )

Garry

On Sat, 2006-09-02 at 07:37 -0700, Walter Klatt wrote:

Garry, I suspect you may be getting considerable pitot angle error which is
why your stall speed is so much lower than mine, and with the higher angle
of attack the VGs allow. In my case my pitot tube on the leading wing edge
is bent down slightly due to fueling encounters, so it may be closer to the
airflow direction at higher angles of attack. It's been a while, but I
thought in the past I did a GPS verification of mine at 50 mph and it was
pretty accurate then.

But like you, I also saw a full 10 mph reduction in clean stall speed. I
haven't even tried it yet with full flaps. Wonder what that would be...
Almost all my flying currently is with my wife and the plane loaded for the
lake, and don't think she would be very pleased if I tried some stalls with
her along.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Garry
Wright
Sent: September 2, 2006 7:20 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] vortex generators

It was in the high 20's on the ground here and tests were actually at
6500 feet. I did not calc the DA, just guessed. That isn't all that high
for here because the airport is at 3400 feet and I like some altitude to
do that sort of test. It only takes FOKM about 3 minutes to get up 3000
feet with just me in it. After looking at the calc it is actually more
like 8500' DA but it really doesn't matter to the tests. Everything is
IAS anyway so it wouldn't matter how high one was.

Garry

On Fri, 2006-09-01 at 22:50 -0400, Drew Dalgleish wrote:

At 06:06 PM 9/1/2006 -0600, you wrote:

Following up on the earlier thread, I now have the Harrison Design VG's
on FOKM - main wing only. FOKM is on wheels so results apply slightly
differently from what Walter found but ..

Stall - clean without 39 mph IAS
- clean with vg's 29 mph IAS

I really don't have much idea what the TAS is but there is a very real
difference in stall speed - weight was about 1400#. DA at the time was
approx 7500' ASL.

Slow flight stability is noticeably better than without the vg's. Less
of the sloppiness in aileron response that one gets just above the
stall.

The real proof of the pudding comes on landing slow and short. When I
touched down I used all of the lift available from the vg's and my
touchdown speed was noticeably slower than without vg's. The tires
hardly squealed at all and the rollout was so short I felt a little
silly taxiing down the rest of the runway to clear via the taxiway at
the other end. It felt like a bicycle could easily keep up with the
plane at touchdown. I also had light gusting crosswinds (10 knots) which
were much easier to handle than formerly.

My setup is 48 per side, 3 inch spacing, centered 7" back of leading
edge which is virtually identical to Walter's arrangement I think. My 7"
back is with the tails of the vg's butting against the 3rd rivit line.

The only disadvantage is cleaning the wing in the winter. I don't plan
on much of that so would do this again on any other Rebel.

Garry

BTW - thanks for the tip Walter.

Thanks for putting up your numbers Garry. 7500'DA? how hot was it. I went
up that high coming home from the cottage on monday to get over some

broken

cloud and bouncy hazy underneath. I haven't been that high for years what

a

view :) I was impressed with my new engine even that high with almost a
full load I was climbing over 500fpm.
Drew



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[Ted Waltman]

Hey Larry,

I have a set of VG templates for Moose wings that I can put in the mail.
Take me a few days to dig 'em out, but if you want them let me know. Makes
placing them a no-brainer.

Ted

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
skytrucks@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 8:28 PM
To: rebel-builders-d@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] Vortex Generators

Hi Everyone;
????????? 2 or 3 years ago I bought 2 sets of VG's each from a different
company so I could compare them. I put one set on my Super Rebel, they
recomended putting them back about 5.5 inches from leading edge. This is
between the second and third row of rivets. ?Now I am going to put the other
set on my Moose before we paint the wings. This company said put them
between the first and second row of rivets, that would be about 3 inches
back. What do you guys suggest for the placement for the best performance.

????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
??????????? Thanks;
????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
?????????????? Larry Luckinbill
????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
??????????????? Super Rebel 013
????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
??????????????? Moose 117







-----Original Message-----
From: rebel-builders-d digest <rebel-builders-d@dcsol.com>
To: rebel-builders-d@dcsol.com
Sent: Thu, 1 May 2008 6:00 pm
Subject: [rebel-builders-d] DIGEST - rebel-builders-d



Digest of list: rebel-builders-d Total messages in digest: 2

1 Date : Wed, 30 Apr 2008 20:42:58 -0800
From : snowyrvr@mtaonline.net
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Rebel Builders

2 Date : Thu, 01 May 2008 06:29:43 -0700
From : walter.klatt@shaw.ca
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Rebel Builders


---------- Digest Message #1 ----------
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 20:42:58 -0800
From: snowyrvr@mtaonline.net
To: rebel-builders
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Rebel Builders

Walter,

We have planned our trip and we will arrive in Vancouver August 4th at 5 pm
and leave August 7th at 6 pm. We're staying at a Best Western in Chiliwack.

I hope it works out so we can meet up. We'd love to meet you and see your
plane. Craig


-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Walter
Klatt
Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2008 5:14 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Rebel Builders

Craig, I live in the area, and keep my plane at Langley. When you get closer
to July let me know. Depending on when in July, I may not be around, though.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Craig
Walls
Sent: April 25, 2008 8:54 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] Rebel Builders

Are there any rebel builders/flyers in the Chiliwack area? We are thinking
about going through there on our way to San Fran Freako in July. I'd like
to get a ride in a rebel at the factory. Craig





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---------- Digest Message #2 ----------
Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 06:29:43 -0700
From: walter.klatt@shaw.ca
To: rebel-builders
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Rebel Builders

I think I will be around then so that should work out. Keep in touch.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Craig
Walls
Sent: April 30, 2008 9:43 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Rebel Builders

Walter,

We have planned our trip and we will arrive in Vancouver August 4th at 5 pm
and leave August 7th at 6 pm. We're staying at a Best Western in Chiliwack.

I hope it works out so we can meet up. We'd love to meet you and see your
plane. Craig


-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Walter
Klatt
Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2008 5:14 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Rebel Builders

Craig, I live in the area, and keep my plane at Langley. When you get closer
to July let me know. Depending on when in July, I may not be around, though.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Craig
Walls
Sent: April 25, 2008 8:54 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] Rebel Builders

Are there any rebel builders/flyers in the Chiliwack area? We are thinking
about going through there on our way to San Fran Freako in July. I'd like
to get a ride in a rebel at the factory. Craig





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[Walter Klatt]

I use the Landshorter ones and placed them at the 10% chord position as
recommended by the manufacturer, and it worked out well for me. I can't
remember the exact position in inches, but you use the centre of the VG as
the placement reference point.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Ted
Waltman
Sent: May 1, 2008 8:03 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Vortex Generators

Hey Larry,

I have a set of VG templates for Moose wings that I can put in the mail.
Take me a few days to dig 'em out, but if you want them let me know. Makes
placing them a no-brainer.

Ted

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
skytrucks@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 8:28 PM
To: rebel-builders-d@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] Vortex Generators

Hi Everyone;
????????? 2 or 3 years ago I bought 2 sets of VG's each from a different
company so I could compare them. I put one set on my Super Rebel, they
recomended putting them back about 5.5 inches from leading edge. This is
between the second and third row of rivets. ?Now I am going to put the other
set on my Moose before we paint the wings. This company said put them
between the first and second row of rivets, that would be about 3 inches
back. What do you guys suggest for the placement for the best performance.

????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
??????????? Thanks;
????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
?????????????? Larry Luckinbill
????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
??????????????? Super Rebel 013
????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
??????????????? Moose 117







-----Original Message-----
From: rebel-builders-d digest <rebel-builders-d@dcsol.com>
To: rebel-builders-d@dcsol.com
Sent: Thu, 1 May 2008 6:00 pm
Subject: [rebel-builders-d] DIGEST - rebel-builders-d



Digest of list: rebel-builders-d Total messages in digest: 2

1 Date : Wed, 30 Apr 2008 20:42:58 -0800
From : snowyrvr@mtaonline.net
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Rebel Builders

2 Date : Thu, 01 May 2008 06:29:43 -0700
From : walter.klatt@shaw.ca
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Rebel Builders


---------- Digest Message #1 ----------
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 20:42:58 -0800
From: snowyrvr@mtaonline.net
To: rebel-builders
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Rebel Builders

Walter,

We have planned our trip and we will arrive in Vancouver August 4th at 5 pm
and leave August 7th at 6 pm. We're staying at a Best Western in Chiliwack.

I hope it works out so we can meet up. We'd love to meet you and see your
plane. Craig


-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Walter
Klatt
Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2008 5:14 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Rebel Builders

Craig, I live in the area, and keep my plane at Langley. When you get closer
to July let me know. Depending on when in July, I may not be around, though.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Craig
Walls
Sent: April 25, 2008 8:54 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] Rebel Builders

Are there any rebel builders/flyers in the Chiliwack area? We are thinking
about going through there on our way to San Fran Freako in July. I'd like
to get a ride in a rebel at the factory. Craig





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---------- Digest Message #2 ----------
Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 06:29:43 -0700
From: walter.klatt@shaw.ca
To: rebel-builders
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Rebel Builders

I think I will be around then so that should work out. Keep in touch.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Craig
Walls
Sent: April 30, 2008 9:43 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Rebel Builders

Walter,

We have planned our trip and we will arrive in Vancouver August 4th at 5 pm
and leave August 7th at 6 pm. We're staying at a Best Western in Chiliwack.

I hope it works out so we can meet up. We'd love to meet you and see your
plane. Craig


-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Walter
Klatt
Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2008 5:14 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Rebel Builders

Craig, I live in the area, and keep my plane at Langley. When you get closer
to July let me know. Depending on when in July, I may not be around, though.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Craig
Walls
Sent: April 25, 2008 8:54 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] Rebel Builders

Are there any rebel builders/flyers in the Chiliwack area? We are thinking
about going through there on our way to San Fran Freako in July. I'd like
to get a ride in a rebel at the factory. Craig





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[Jeff Micheal]

Wing cord is 60 inches x 10% -- placement approximately 6 inches back -- in
theory.

On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 8:29 PM, Walter Klatt <Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca> wrote:

I use the Landshorter ones and placed them at the 10% chord position as
recommended by the manufacturer, and it worked out well for me. I can't
remember the exact position in inches, but you use the centre of the VG as
the placement reference point.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Ted
Waltman
Sent: May 1, 2008 8:03 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Vortex Generators

Hey Larry,

I have a set of VG templates for Moose wings that I can put in the mail.
Take me a few days to dig 'em out, but if you want them let me know.
Makes
placing them a no-brainer.

Ted

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
skytrucks@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 8:28 PM
To: rebel-builders-d@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] Vortex Generators

Hi Everyone;
????????? 2 or 3 years ago I bought 2 sets of VG's each from a different
company so I could compare them. I put one set on my Super Rebel, they
recomended putting them back about 5.5 inches from leading edge. This is
between the second and third row of rivets. ?Now I am going to put the
other
set on my Moose before we paint the wings. This company said put them
between the first and second row of rivets, that would be about 3 inches
back. What do you guys suggest for the placement for the best performance.


????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
??????????? Thanks;

????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
?????????????? Larry Luckinbill

????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
??????????????? Super Rebel 013

????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
??????????????? Moose 117







-----Original Message-----
From: rebel-builders-d digest <rebel-builders-d@dcsol.com>
To: rebel-builders-d@dcsol.com
Sent: Thu, 1 May 2008 6:00 pm
Subject: [rebel-builders-d] DIGEST - rebel-builders-d



Digest of list: rebel-builders-d Total messages in digest: 2

1 Date : Wed, 30 Apr 2008 20:42:58 -0800
From : snowyrvr@mtaonline.net
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Rebel Builders

2 Date : Thu, 01 May 2008 06:29:43 -0700
From : walter.klatt@shaw.ca
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Rebel Builders


---------- Digest Message #1 ----------
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 20:42:58 -0800
From: snowyrvr@mtaonline.net
To: rebel-builders
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Rebel Builders

Walter,

We have planned our trip and we will arrive in Vancouver August 4th at 5
pm
and leave August 7th at 6 pm. We're staying at a Best Western in
Chiliwack.

I hope it works out so we can meet up. We'd love to meet you and see your
plane. Craig


-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Walter
Klatt
Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2008 5:14 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Rebel Builders

Craig, I live in the area, and keep my plane at Langley. When you get
closer
to July let me know. Depending on when in July, I may not be around,
though.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Craig
Walls
Sent: April 25, 2008 8:54 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] Rebel Builders

Are there any rebel builders/flyers in the Chiliwack area? We are
thinking
about going through there on our way to San Fran Freako in July. I'd like
to get a ride in a rebel at the factory. Craig





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---------- Digest Message #2 ----------
Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 06:29:43 -0700
From: walter.klatt@shaw.ca
To: rebel-builders
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Rebel Builders

I think I will be around then so that should work out. Keep in touch.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Craig
Walls
Sent: April 30, 2008 9:43 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Rebel Builders

Walter,

We have planned our trip and we will arrive in Vancouver August 4th at 5
pm
and leave August 7th at 6 pm. We're staying at a Best Western in
Chiliwack.

I hope it works out so we can meet up. We'd love to meet you and see your
plane. Craig


-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Walter
Klatt
Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2008 5:14 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Rebel Builders

Craig, I live in the area, and keep my plane at Langley. When you get
closer
to July let me know. Depending on when in July, I may not be around,
though.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Craig
Walls
Sent: April 25, 2008 8:54 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] Rebel Builders

Are there any rebel builders/flyers in the Chiliwack area? We are
thinking
about going through there on our way to San Fran Freako in July. I'd like
to get a ride in a rebel at the factory. Craig





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[Ron Shannon]

I think the best price is probably Harrison's (http://landshorter.com) I
have a brand new set for sale. Contact me offline if interested.

Ron


On Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 7:13 AM, John Peterson <johnspeterson@rogers.com>wrote:

Okay, after all the info on these things, I think I am going to put them on
my amphib.
Anyone know the best one for the best price - Canadian thing, always want
a deal eh!!
Thanks
Also for anyone with the Prince Prop - works great on my amphib but I
would suggest after talking to Lonnie Prince that a leading edge protector
is a good idea. Got one from ACS for about $60 - seems to do the trick.


John Peterson

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[WALTER KLATT]

I think the Landshorter site is infected with something right now, as it tried to get me to install some anti spyware software, which of course I didn't. So just a warning to others, if it does a little scan for you and looks like a legitimate Windows message, don't do it, because that is exactly how you will end up with the malware or virus. Just close your Windows or other browser to get out.

Walter

----- Original Message -----
From: Ron Shannon <rshannon@cruzcom.com>
Date: Monday, August 11, 2008 8:51 am
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Vortex Generators
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com

I think the best price is probably Harrison's
(http://landshorter.com) I
have a brand new set for sale. Contact me offline if interested.

Ron


On Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 7:13 AM, John Peterson
<johnspeterson@rogers.com>wrote:

Okay, after all the info on these things, I think I am going

to put them on

my amphib.
Anyone know the best one for the best price - Canadian

thing, always want

a deal eh!!
Thanks
Also for anyone with the Prince Prop - works great on my

amphib but I

would suggest after talking to Lonnie Prince that a leading

edge protector

is a good idea. Got one from ACS for about $60 - seems to do

the trick.

John Peterson

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[WALTER KLATT]

I did mine at the 10% chord position, 3 inches apart, as the manufacturer recommended, and no conflicts with any rivets.

Walter

----- Original Message -----
From: Dale Kilbey <dale.kilbey@sympatico.ca>
Date: Wednesday, April 1, 2009 7:34 am
Subject: [rebel-builders] Vortex Generators
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com

----- HI
Does anyone remember what %cord that the vg's are at? The reason
I am asking
is that someone mentioned conflict with rivets on an elite wing.
I laid out
the pattern for the system I am using and found no conflict with
rivets.Dale




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[Dale Kilbey]

Thanks Walter.
Dale
----- Original Message -----
From: "WALTER KLATT" <Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 12:21 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Vortex Generators

I did mine at the 10% chord position, 3 inches apart, as the manufacturer
recommended, and no conflicts with any rivets.

Walter

----- Original Message -----
From: Dale Kilbey <dale.kilbey@sympatico.ca>
Date: Wednesday, April 1, 2009 7:34 am
Subject: [rebel-builders] Vortex Generators
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com

----- HI
Does anyone remember what %cord that the vg's are at? The reason
I am asking
is that someone mentioned conflict with rivets on an elite wing.
I laid out
the pattern for the system I am using and found no conflict with
rivets.Dale




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