Flush riveting Leading Edge

[staff]

Hello Gaetan!

How are you making out on your airplane?? Is going as easy as you thought? How far are
you and what power plant are you going to use??
John Vandenberg From Winnipeg

Gaetan Tremblay wrote:

[quote]Hello Eric,

Of course the leading edge is too thin to contersink. You should use a
dimple tool to shape the skin without removing any metal. You should do the
same on the ribs.

The dimple tool is a very simple tool that is include with the Murphys's
tool kit. It is a male/female die and a nail that you use with the manual
riveter. It cost about $5. It is also available at Aircraft Spruce or
anywhere who sold rivets.

When I use it, I drill the holes smaller (7/64) as it enlarge to the good
size while I do the dimple.

What did you do on the tail surfaces? The manual ask to use flush rivets to
fit the tail fairing.

Bye,

Gaetan Tremblay
Elite #660

-----Message d'origine-----
De : Eric Fogelin [mailto:ericfo@whidbey.com]
Envoy

[Eric Fogelin]

I'm at the point where I can start countersinking the
leading edge of my Elite wing. I'm interested in what
folks recommend in procedure and technique. The Elite
leading edge is 0.032 which is just barely enough metal
to countersink. In tests with srcap metal, it is easy
to go too deep or create out of round holes.

1) Should I countersink the skin while it is wrapped
around and cleco'd to the leading edge ribs? Or should
I remove the skin and countersink on a workbench. Seems
like doing it in place is best as the countersink pilot
can be better guided by the underlying rib rivet hole.

2) What is the proper speed to countersink: short blast
with a high speed air drill, or slow rpm with an electric
drill?

I don't expect any performance increase, just doing this
for aesthetics. Those who have done the work to flush
rivet the leading edge, was it worth the hassle?

Thanks,

Eric Fogelin
Elite #645
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[Eric Fogelin]

I dimple all of the areas that have thin metal (0.020) such as
the leading edge of stabilizer and rudder. However, the
leading edge of wing requires countersinking as I saw them
do on the SR at the factory when I was there. The SR also
uses 0.032 material for its leading edge.

Even if you consider dimpling the skin where it attaches to
the ribs, that technique can't be used where the stringers
are attached, because the stringers should not be dimpled.
And the rivets for the stringers represent most of the leading
edge rivets. So, dimpling isn't an option.

Unfortunately, when I was at the factory last year, I didn't
pay enough attention as to how they were countersinking the
leading edge for flush riveting.

Thanks,

Eric Fogelin
Elite #645

-----Original Message-----
From: Gaetan Tremblay [mailto:gaetant@total.net]
Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2000 11:03 AM
To: Murphy Rebel Builders List
Subject: RE: Flush riveting Leading Edge


Hello Eric,

Of course the leading edge is too thin to contersink. You should use a
dimple tool to shape the skin without removing any metal. You should do the
same on the ribs.

The dimple tool is a very simple tool that is include with the Murphys's
tool kit. It is a male/female die and a nail that you use with the manual
riveter. It cost about $5. It is also available at Aircraft Spruce or
anywhere who sold rivets.

When I use it, I drill the holes smaller (7/64) as it enlarge to the good
size while I do the dimple.

What did you do on the tail surfaces? The manual ask to use flush rivets to
fit the tail fairing.

Bye,

Gaetan Tremblay
Elite #660

-----Message d'origine-----
De : Eric Fogelin [mailto:ericfo@whidbey.com]
Envoy

[Charles Bailey]

Eric,
You may want to talk with Chuck Skorupa, he did 1/8 solid Flush Rivets.
Countersink using a Micro Adj. tool, leaving the rivet just above the
surface. (Thou or Two) It looks real nice.

He is out of town for a week of two.

Chuck R176

----- Original Message -----
From: "Eric Fogelin" <ericfo@whidbey.com>
To: "Murphy Rebel Builders List" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2000 10:26 AM
Subject: Flush riveting Leading Edge

I'm at the point where I can start countersinking the
leading edge of my Elite wing. I'm interested in what
folks recommend in procedure and technique. The Elite
leading edge is 0.032 which is just barely enough metal
to countersink. In tests with srcap metal, it is easy
to go too deep or create out of round holes.

1) Should I countersink the skin while it is wrapped
around and cleco'd to the leading edge ribs? Or should
I remove the skin and countersink on a workbench. Seems
like doing it in place is best as the countersink pilot
can be better guided by the underlying rib rivet hole.

2) What is the proper speed to countersink: short blast
with a high speed air drill, or slow rpm with an electric
drill?

I don't expect any performance increase, just doing this
for aesthetics. Those who have done the work to flush
rivet the leading edge, was it worth the hassle?

Thanks,

Eric Fogelin
Elite #645

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[Gaetan Tremblay]

Hello Eric,

Of course the leading edge is too thin to contersink. You should use a
dimple tool to shape the skin without removing any metal. You should do the
same on the ribs.

The dimple tool is a very simple tool that is include with the Murphys's
tool kit. It is a male/female die and a nail that you use with the manual
riveter. It cost about $5. It is also available at Aircraft Spruce or
anywhere who sold rivets.

When I use it, I drill the holes smaller (7/64) as it enlarge to the good
size while I do the dimple.

What did you do on the tail surfaces? The manual ask to use flush rivets to
fit the tail fairing.

Bye,

Gaetan Tremblay
Elite #660

-----Message d'origine-----
De : Eric Fogelin [mailto:ericfo@whidbey.com]
Envoy

[REBEL112R]

It's almost more work than I can imagine. Best of luck.{ From 10 ft away you
probly could not tell if it were flush rivetted or not.}
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[Eric Fogelin]

It has crossed my mind that normal rivets would act as
mini vortex generators...disturb that boundary layer, etc.
Also not interested in weakening the wing with countersunk
rivets that push limits on skin thickness.

I'd also love to save the time and not countersink. But,
I'm having fun. So far, no one has stepped forward to
say they countersunk their leading edges. Sounds like
Wayne doesn't.

If Wayne doesn't, that may be good enough for me.

Eric

-----Original Message-----
From: Wayne G. O'Shea [mailto:oifa@irishfield.on.ca]
Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2000 7:28 PM
To: Murphy Rebel Builders List
Subject: Re: Flush riveting Leading Edge


Think of the rivet heads as inverted golf ball dimples. We all know how far
a golf ball would go, if it was just a smooth ball!!!!

Wayne

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Patterson <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
To: Murphy Rebel Builders List <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Date: Sunday, June 04, 2000 10:27 PM
Subject: Re: Flush riveting Leading Edge

Eric,

Glad you're just doing it for looks ! The latest factory Super Rebel
has 10 extra HP., and a flush - rivetted leading edge. It's about 3 mph.
SLOWER than the old one !!

Talking to the Globe Swift owners, who go pretty wild on mods -
bigger engines, big bubble canopies, etc. - they seem to feel that
flush rivetting the whole airplane isn't worth the effort unless you're
going over 300 mph !! This is based on several people actually rebuilding
Swifts with flush rivets ....

Countersinking does give nice appearance, but DIMPLING would
give nice appearance AND more stregnth - fair bit of work, though.
A hydraulic dimpler might be nice ! :-)

<MHO> - unless you're REALLY hung up on the looks, save yourself
a lot of effort and just get flying sooner !!

Of course, this comes from the guy who has contended all along
that the rivets on the wing are actually built-in vortex generators,
and contribute to the outstanding low-speed performance !! :-)

.....bobp

----------------------------orig.--------------------------------------
At 10:26 AM 6/4/00 -0700, you wrote:

I'm at the point where I can start countersinking the
leading edge of my Elite wing. I'm interested in what
folks recommend in procedure and technique. The Elite
leading edge is 0.032 which is just barely enough metal
to countersink. In tests with srcap metal, it is easy
to go too deep or create out of round holes.

1) Should I countersink the skin while it is wrapped
around and cleco'd to the leading edge ribs? Or should
I remove the skin and countersink on a workbench. Seems
like doing it in place is best as the countersink pilot
can be better guided by the underlying rib rivet hole.

2) What is the proper speed to countersink: short blast
with a high speed air drill, or slow rpm with an electric
drill?

I don't expect any performance increase, just doing this
for aesthetics. Those who have done the work to flush
rivet the leading edge, was it worth the hassle?

Thanks,

Eric Fogelin
Elite #645
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between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
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*--------------------------------------------------------------------------

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[Bob Patterson]

Eric,

Glad you're just doing it for looks ! The latest factory Super Rebel
has 10 extra HP., and a flush - rivetted leading edge. It's about 3 mph.
SLOWER than the old one !!

Talking to the Globe Swift owners, who go pretty wild on mods -
bigger engines, big bubble canopies, etc. - they seem to feel that
flush rivetting the whole airplane isn't worth the effort unless you're
going over 300 mph !! This is based on several people actually rebuilding
Swifts with flush rivets ....

Countersinking does give nice appearance, but DIMPLING would
give nice appearance AND more stregnth - fair bit of work, though.
A hydraulic dimpler might be nice ! :-)

<MHO> - unless you're REALLY hung up on the looks, save yourself
a lot of effort and just get flying sooner !!

Of course, this comes from the guy who has contended all along
that the rivets on the wing are actually built-in vortex generators,
and contribute to the outstanding low-speed performance !! :-)

.....bobp

----------------------------orig.--------------------------------------
At 10:26 AM 6/4/00 -0700, you wrote:

I'm at the point where I can start countersinking the
leading edge of my Elite wing. I'm interested in what
folks recommend in procedure and technique. The Elite
leading edge is 0.032 which is just barely enough metal
to countersink. In tests with srcap metal, it is easy
to go too deep or create out of round holes.

1) Should I countersink the skin while it is wrapped
around and cleco'd to the leading edge ribs? Or should
I remove the skin and countersink on a workbench. Seems
like doing it in place is best as the countersink pilot
can be better guided by the underlying rib rivet hole.

2) What is the proper speed to countersink: short blast
with a high speed air drill, or slow rpm with an electric
drill?

I don't expect any performance increase, just doing this
for aesthetics. Those who have done the work to flush
rivet the leading edge, was it worth the hassle?

Thanks,

Eric Fogelin
Elite #645
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between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your following message has been delivered to the 154 members of
the list murphy-rebel@dcsol.com at 18:34:36 on 4 Jun 2000.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


Think of the rivet heads as inverted golf ball dimples. We all know how far
a golf ball would go, if it was just a smooth ball!!!!

Wayne

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Patterson <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
To: Murphy Rebel Builders List <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Date: Sunday, June 04, 2000 10:27 PM
Subject: Re: Flush riveting Leading Edge

Eric,

Glad you're just doing it for looks ! The latest factory Super Rebel
has 10 extra HP., and a flush - rivetted leading edge. It's about 3 mph.
SLOWER than the old one !!

Talking to the Globe Swift owners, who go pretty wild on mods -
bigger engines, big bubble canopies, etc. - they seem to feel that
flush rivetting the whole airplane isn't worth the effort unless you're
going over 300 mph !! This is based on several people actually rebuilding
Swifts with flush rivets ....

Countersinking does give nice appearance, but DIMPLING would
give nice appearance AND more stregnth - fair bit of work, though.
A hydraulic dimpler might be nice ! :-)

<MHO> - unless you're REALLY hung up on the looks, save yourself
a lot of effort and just get flying sooner !!

Of course, this comes from the guy who has contended all along
that the rivets on the wing are actually built-in vortex generators,
and contribute to the outstanding low-speed performance !! :-)

.....bobp

----------------------------orig.--------------------------------------
At 10:26 AM 6/4/00 -0700, you wrote:

I'm at the point where I can start countersinking the
leading edge of my Elite wing. I'm interested in what
folks recommend in procedure and technique. The Elite
leading edge is 0.032 which is just barely enough metal
to countersink. In tests with srcap metal, it is easy
to go too deep or create out of round holes.

1) Should I countersink the skin while it is wrapped
around and cleco'd to the leading edge ribs? Or should
I remove the skin and countersink on a workbench. Seems
like doing it in place is best as the countersink pilot
can be better guided by the underlying rib rivet hole.

2) What is the proper speed to countersink: short blast
with a high speed air drill, or slow rpm with an electric
drill?

I don't expect any performance increase, just doing this
for aesthetics. Those who have done the work to flush
rivet the leading edge, was it worth the hassle?

Thanks,

Eric Fogelin
Elite #645
*-------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Archives located at:
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[Bob Patterson]

You <could> dimple the skin & countersink the stringers - this
HAS been done ....
.....bobp

------------------------------orig.-------------------------------------
At 11:08 AM 6/4/00 -0700, you wrote:
[quote]I dimple all of the areas that have thin metal (0.020) such as
the leading edge of stabilizer and rudder. However, the
leading edge of wing requires countersinking as I saw them
do on the SR at the factory when I was there. The SR also
uses 0.032 material for its leading edge.

Even if you consider dimpling the skin where it attaches to
the ribs, that technique can't be used where the stringers
are attached, because the stringers should not be dimpled.
And the rivets for the stringers represent most of the leading
edge rivets. So, dimpling isn't an option.

Unfortunately, when I was at the factory last year, I didn't
pay enough attention as to how they were countersinking the
leading edge for flush riveting.

Thanks,

Eric Fogelin
Elite #645

-----Original Message-----
From: Gaetan Tremblay [mailto:gaetant@total.net]
Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2000 11:03 AM
To: Murphy Rebel Builders List
Subject: RE: Flush riveting Leading Edge


Hello Eric,

Of course the leading edge is too thin to contersink. You should use a
dimple tool to shape the skin without removing any metal. You should do the
same on the ribs.

The dimple tool is a very simple tool that is include with the Murphys's
tool kit. It is a male/female die and a nail that you use with the manual
riveter. It cost about $5. It is also available at Aircraft Spruce or
anywhere who sold rivets.

When I use it, I drill the holes smaller (7/64) as it enlarge to the good
size while I do the dimple.

What did you do on the tail surfaces? The manual ask to use flush rivets to
fit the tail fairing.

Bye,

Gaetan Tremblay
Elite #660

-----Message d'origine-----
De : Eric Fogelin [mailto:ericfo@whidbey.com]
Envoy

[Bob Patterson]

What a concept - smooth balls ! ;-) hmmmmmm.....

Think it's been done - better not go there ..... :-) :-)

....bobp

--------------------------orig.-------------------------------------
At 10:28 PM 6/4/00 -0400, you wrote:

Think of the rivet heads as inverted golf ball dimples. We all know how far
a golf ball would go, if it was just a smooth ball!!!!

Wayne

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Patterson <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
To: Murphy Rebel Builders List <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Date: Sunday, June 04, 2000 10:27 PM
Subject: Re: Flush riveting Leading Edge

Eric,

Glad you're just doing it for looks ! The latest factory Super Rebel
has 10 extra HP., and a flush - rivetted leading edge. It's about 3 mph.
SLOWER than the old one !!

Talking to the Globe Swift owners, who go pretty wild on mods -
bigger engines, big bubble canopies, etc. - they seem to feel that
flush rivetting the whole airplane isn't worth the effort unless you're
going over 300 mph !! This is based on several people actually rebuilding
Swifts with flush rivets ....

Countersinking does give nice appearance, but DIMPLING would
give nice appearance AND more stregnth - fair bit of work, though.
A hydraulic dimpler might be nice ! :-)

<MHO> - unless you're REALLY hung up on the looks, save yourself
a lot of effort and just get flying sooner !!

Of course, this comes from the guy who has contended all along
that the rivets on the wing are actually built-in vortex generators,
and contribute to the outstanding low-speed performance !! :-)

.....bobp

----------------------------orig.--------------------------------------
At 10:26 AM 6/4/00 -0700, you wrote:

I'm at the point where I can start countersinking the
leading edge of my Elite wing. I'm interested in what
folks recommend in procedure and technique. The Elite
leading edge is 0.032 which is just barely enough metal
to countersink. In tests with srcap metal, it is easy
to go too deep or create out of round holes.

1) Should I countersink the skin while it is wrapped
around and cleco'd to the leading edge ribs? Or should
I remove the skin and countersink on a workbench. Seems
like doing it in place is best as the countersink pilot
can be better guided by the underlying rib rivet hole.

2) What is the proper speed to countersink: short blast
with a high speed air drill, or slow rpm with an electric
drill?

I don't expect any performance increase, just doing this
for aesthetics. Those who have done the work to flush
rivet the leading edge, was it worth the hassle?

Thanks,

Eric Fogelin
Elite #645
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Archives located at:
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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

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Your following message has been delivered to the 152 members of
the list murphy-rebel@dcsol.com at 04:48:14 on 5 Jun 2000.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


I'm going bridge jumping next week, want to follow me???? Seriously, the
rest of the aircraft is covered in "bumps"! Why make the leading edge look
different than the rest of the aircraft??

Wayne

-----Original Message-----
From: Eric Fogelin <ericfo@whidbey.com>
To: Murphy Rebel Builders List <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Date: Monday, June 05, 2000 1:01 AM
Subject: RE: Flush riveting Leading Edge

It has crossed my mind that normal rivets would act as
mini vortex generators...disturb that boundary layer, etc.
Also not interested in weakening the wing with countersunk
rivets that push limits on skin thickness.

I'd also love to save the time and not countersink. But,
I'm having fun. So far, no one has stepped forward to
say they countersunk their leading edges. Sounds like
Wayne doesn't.

If Wayne doesn't, that may be good enough for me.

Eric

-----Original Message-----
From: Wayne G. O'Shea [mailto:oifa@irishfield.on.ca]
Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2000 7:28 PM
To: Murphy Rebel Builders List
Subject: Re: Flush riveting Leading Edge


Think of the rivet heads as inverted golf ball dimples. We all know how far
a golf ball would go, if it was just a smooth ball!!!!

Wayne

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Patterson <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
To: Murphy Rebel Builders List <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Date: Sunday, June 04, 2000 10:27 PM
Subject: Re: Flush riveting Leading Edge

Eric,

Glad you're just doing it for looks ! The latest factory Super Rebel
has 10 extra HP., and a flush - rivetted leading edge. It's about 3 mph.
SLOWER than the old one !!

Talking to the Globe Swift owners, who go pretty wild on mods -
bigger engines, big bubble canopies, etc. - they seem to feel that
flush rivetting the whole airplane isn't worth the effort unless you're
going over 300 mph !! This is based on several people actually rebuilding
Swifts with flush rivets ....

Countersinking does give nice appearance, but DIMPLING would
give nice appearance AND more stregnth - fair bit of work, though.
A hydraulic dimpler might be nice ! :-)

<MHO> - unless you're REALLY hung up on the looks, save yourself
a lot of effort and just get flying sooner !!

Of course, this comes from the guy who has contended all along
that the rivets on the wing are actually built-in vortex generators,
and contribute to the outstanding low-speed performance !! :-)

.....bobp

----------------------------orig.--------------------------------------
At 10:26 AM 6/4/00 -0700, you wrote:

I'm at the point where I can start countersinking the
leading edge of my Elite wing. I'm interested in what
folks recommend in procedure and technique. The Elite
leading edge is 0.032 which is just barely enough metal
to countersink. In tests with srcap metal, it is easy
to go too deep or create out of round holes.

1) Should I countersink the skin while it is wrapped
around and cleco'd to the leading edge ribs? Or should
I remove the skin and countersink on a workbench. Seems
like doing it in place is best as the countersink pilot
can be better guided by the underlying rib rivet hole.

2) What is the proper speed to countersink: short blast
with a high speed air drill, or slow rpm with an electric
drill?

I don't expect any performance increase, just doing this
for aesthetics. Those who have done the work to flush
rivet the leading edge, was it worth the hassle?

Thanks,

Eric Fogelin
Elite #645
*------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Archives located at:
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The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
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[klehman]

Hi Eric

FWIW if I really wanted to do all that extra work, I'd rather have a dimpled
0.020 Rebel leading edge than a countersunk 0.032 Elite leading edge. I would be
worried about cracks forming at the thin inside edge of the rivet hole 5 or 10
years from now and I definately would not purchase an airframe constructed like
this.

Ken

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[Bob Patterson]

There's no doubt that dimpling the skin, and dimpling the ribs
and c/s'ing the spar & stringers, etc. to match will definitely
increase the strength of the SKIN .... <but> ---- 3,900 lb. ????!!!!

Sounds like that would mean your SR was 30 % stronger than
the Murphy factory's airplane - OR, that you will have to fly with
30 % reduced G limits ..... + 5.7 -> + 3.99 ??

....bobp

--------------------------------orig.--------------------------------
At 11:43 PM 6/6/00 +0400, you wrote:

Okay guys I'll add my two cents/pence/fils or what ever!

I've used flush rivets on the entire Super rebel wing , Flaps and
Ailerons.
(excluding the fuel tank area) I've now completed the tail cone and will
use the same for fuselage fin and rudder. The stab and Elevator are
completed with mushroom rivets and every time I look at them I consider
the implications of de-riveting and dimpling. Still undecided!!

No it wasn't that much more time consuming once you got into the rhythm!
No I didn't CS the leading edge but rather dimpled the .032 skin. I did
use a modified (110 degrees) adjustable cs on the spar and stringers to
allow for dimpling of the skins. Yes, the end result is worth it!!!! And
I'm not at all hesitant to register this airframe to the max of 3900lb
that Transport Canada allows (Another loop hole for you Canadians that
don't know).
--
Warren T. Montgomery
<monty@emirates.net.ae>
Dubai, United Arab Emirates
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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

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Probably looks really nice too!!!!!!!!

Blue skies,
Wayne

-----Original Message-----
From: Warren T. Montgomery <monty@emirates.net.ae>
To: Murphy Rebel Builders List <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Date: Wednesday, June 07, 2000 3:47 PM
Subject: Re: Flush riveting Leading Edge

Wayne, Bobp

The point I was trying to make is that I'm comfortable with the
integrity of the SR wing with flush rivets.
My other planes MTOW is 300 tons and I can't even get a standby crew on
at 85kg if at Max.

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-

From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
Yes Warren, you are right that there is no real "proof" of engineering

required to register even a plain Rebel at the 3968

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I've used flush rivets And I'm not at all hesitant to register this

airframe to the max of 3900lb that Transport Canada allows.

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