[rebel-builders] fuel rate

[Walter Klatt]

It allows me to lean to a target fuel burn, but adjust it slightly (usually
between 7.5 - 8 US gph) to find the rpm that allows the smoothest running
and fastest airspeed at a given altitude. The higher I go, the more RPM I
need, and the fuel distribution seems to change as well, as indicated by the
EGTs. Where I seem to have more trouble is at the higher altitudes where I
can't get as smooth running without more fuel usage. At 10 or 11K, I
sometimes find myself using 8 or 8.5 US gph, which doesn't make sense,
knowing that the engine is producing far less than 75% power. I also need to
keep reminding myself that the true airspeed is more than my IAS up there,
as it seems slow when I need to push it to get 90 instead of my usual 100 or
105 mph near sea level.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
bransom@dcsol.com
Sent: June 26, 2006 12:08 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] fuel rate

4 EGTs, yes, but I don't quite get how the fuel monitor helps, i.e., you
can't just lean cuz it says it's thirsty. ??
-Ben

This is where my fuel monitor really helps me. It allows me to lean with

EGTs, RPM and ASI, to get the most fuel efficiency and smooth running RPM
at every altitude. I usually cruise at 7.5 US gph where without this gauge
would likely be running at 8 or 8.5 if I just leaned to smooth running.
With my carb, all 4 EGTs don't peak at once, so a little playing around is
always necessary to get the best compromise.

Walter

----- Original Message -----
From: bransom@dcsol.com
Date: Monday, June 26, 2006 11:04 am
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] 1800 amphibs

Oh. I just thought it was slower, but I guess if it means driving
aroundin high gear (flatter pitch), it is more power, more gas.
...and dangit,
more $, ...like most fun things

I don't know Ben....I could easily burn 9.5US gal/hr with FOKM

on the

'phibs.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: <bransom@dcsol.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, June 26, 2006 1:24 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] 1800 amphibs

different engine, or

under the

rear

had a big

red

the three

O-rings

retracted.> Any

positive on the

minutes to

keep

transitioning on water.

love the plane.

litres/per/hour hours..............Angus

nose wheel

leaked worse

than

dremel tool

to

from being

dropped

then installed

the

together with onl

y a

pressure holds

for

the cylinder

but

I'm still

not

------

------

5/9/2006

--

--





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[bransom]

The high fuel rate at altitude is kind of a head scratcher. I wonder if
the plane is essentially climbing at that altitude just to stay level, and
therefore increased drag. An angle of attack indicator might be the next
instrument to help show if that is what's going on.
-Ben

It allows me to lean to a target fuel burn, but adjust it slightly (usually
between 7.5 - 8 US gph) to find the rpm that allows the smoothest running
and fastest airspeed at a given altitude. The higher I go, the more RPM I
need, and the fuel distribution seems to change as well, as indicated by the
EGTs. Where I seem to have more trouble is at the higher altitudes where I
can't get as smooth running without more fuel usage. At 10 or 11K, I
sometimes find myself using 8 or 8.5 US gph, which doesn't make sense,
knowing that the engine is producing far less than 75% power. I also need to
keep reminding myself that the true airspeed is more than my IAS up there,
as it seems slow when I need to push it to get 90 instead of my usual 100 or
105 mph near sea level.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
bransom@dcsol.com
Sent: June 26, 2006 12:08 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] fuel rate

4 EGTs, yes, but I don't quite get how the fuel monitor helps, i.e., you
can't just lean cuz it says it's thirsty. ??
-Ben

This is where my fuel monitor really helps me. It allows me to lean with

EGTs, RPM and ASI, to get the most fuel efficiency and smooth running RPM
at every altitude. I usually cruise at 7.5 US gph where without this gauge
would likely be running at 8 or 8.5 if I just leaned to smooth running.
With my carb, all 4 EGTs don't peak at once, so a little playing around is
always necessary to get the best compromise.

Walter

----- Original Message -----
From: bransom@dcsol.com
Date: Monday, June 26, 2006 11:04 am
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] 1800 amphibs

Oh. I just thought it was slower, but I guess if it means driving
aroundin high gear (flatter pitch), it is more power, more gas.
...and dangit,
more $, ...like most fun things
on the different engine, or under the had a big the three retracted.> Any positive on the minutes to transitioning on water. love the plane. nose wheel leaked worse dremel tool from being then installed together with onl pressure holds the cylinder I'm still ------ ------ -- --





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[WALTER KLATT]

I suspect that higher altitudes and maybe my higher RPMs may cause a more uneven fuel distribution, and I can't lean as much without getting roughness in a cylinder. It's been a while since I've been up there, but will be doing lots more of it this summer, so might play around with it a bit more to see if I can figure out what is happening. I've got the old conical mount engine with the carb at the rear of the sump. I do notice that my #3 cyl likes to peak first.

Walter

----- Original Message -----
From: bransom@dcsol.com
Date: Monday, June 26, 2006 3:31 pm
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] fuel rate

The high fuel rate at altitude is kind of a head scratcher. I
wonder if
the plane is essentially climbing at that altitude just to stay
level, and
therefore increased drag. An angle of attack indicator might be
the next
instrument to help show if that is what's going on.
-Ben

It allows me to lean to a target fuel burn, but adjust it

slightly (usually

between 7.5 - 8 US gph) to find the rpm that allows the

smoothest running

and fastest airspeed at a given altitude. The higher I go, the

more RPM I

need, and the fuel distribution seems to change as well, as

indicated by the

EGTs. Where I seem to have more trouble is at the higher

altitudes where I

can't get as smooth running without more fuel usage. At 10 or

11K, I

sometimes find myself using 8 or 8.5 US gph, which doesn't make

sense,> knowing that the engine is producing far less than 75%
power. I also need to

keep reminding myself that the true airspeed is more than my IAS

up there,

as it seems slow when I need to push it to get 90 instead of my

usual 100 or

105 mph near sea level.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
bransom@dcsol.com
Sent: June 26, 2006 12:08 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] fuel rate

4 EGTs, yes, but I don't quite get how the fuel monitor helps,

i.e., you

can't just lean cuz it says it's thirsty. ??
-Ben

This is where my fuel monitor really helps me. It allows me to

lean with

EGTs, RPM and ASI, to get the most fuel efficiency and smooth

running RPM

at every altitude. I usually cruise at 7.5 US gph where without

this gauge

would likely be running at 8 or 8.5 if I just leaned to smooth

running.> With my carb, all 4 EGTs don't peak at once, so a little
playing around is

always necessary to get the best compromise.

Walter

----- Original Message -----
From: bransom@dcsol.com
Date: Monday, June 26, 2006 11:04 am
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] 1800 amphibs

driving

gas.

FOKM

doublers

maintanence and

Changed

not stay

be

1-2

of pumping.

really

37.5

rebuilding my

it

with my

couple

I

stiction in

and if

------

------

Release Date:

------

------

----

----

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[bgeorgen]

Lycoming engine manuals have a chart giving rpm settings for different
altitudes and power ratings along with fuel burn at those ratings (like 75%
and 8 gal/hr at 7500 feet ,ect) . Every thing for a standard atmosphere day,
but I don't think it makes a whole lot of difference.

I made a copy of this chart and hung it on may instrument panel for quick
reference to calculate my power setting and fuel buen for different
altitudes. I lean until my EGT is 1475 F typically at the altitudes I fly
most. Works pretty good. Fuel flow would be nice though.

Bruce G







----- Original Message -----
From: "Walter Klatt" <Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, June 26, 2006 12:43 PM
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] fuel rate

It allows me to lean to a target fuel burn, but adjust it slightly
(usually
between 7.5 - 8 US gph) to find the rpm that allows the smoothest running
and fastest airspeed at a given altitude. The higher I go, the more RPM I
need, and the fuel distribution seems to change as well, as indicated by
the
EGTs. Where I seem to have more trouble is at the higher altitudes where I
can't get as smooth running without more fuel usage. At 10 or 11K, I
sometimes find myself using 8 or 8.5 US gph, which doesn't make sense,
knowing that the engine is producing far less than 75% power. I also need
to
keep reminding myself that the true airspeed is more than my IAS up there,
as it seems slow when I need to push it to get 90 instead of my usual 100
or
105 mph near sea level.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
bransom@dcsol.com
Sent: June 26, 2006 12:08 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] fuel rate

4 EGTs, yes, but I don't quite get how the fuel monitor helps, i.e., you
can't just lean cuz it says it's thirsty. ??
-Ben

This is where my fuel monitor really helps me. It allows me to lean with

EGTs, RPM and ASI, to get the most fuel efficiency and smooth running RPM
at every altitude. I usually cruise at 7.5 US gph where without this gauge
would likely be running at 8 or 8.5 if I just leaned to smooth running.
With my carb, all 4 EGTs don't peak at once, so a little playing around is
always necessary to get the best compromise.

Walter

----- Original Message -----
From: bransom@dcsol.com
Date: Monday, June 26, 2006 11:04 am
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] 1800 amphibs

Oh. I just thought it was slower, but I guess if it means driving
aroundin high gear (flatter pitch), it is more power, more gas.
...and dangit,
more $, ...like most fun things
on the different engine, or under the had a big the three retracted.> Any positive on the minutes to transitioning on water. love the plane. nose wheel leaked worse dremel tool from being then installed together with onl pressure holds the cylinder I'm still ------ ------ -- --





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[Ken]

I love a technical mystery but does the chart indicate higher burn at
low altutude if you set the same power that WOT makes at 10k asl? Do we
know that other guys have lower fuel flow at high altutude?

For the same MAP there will be higher mass flow of air (and fuel) at
altitude due to lower exhaust back pressure. Higher rpm will also cause
higher internal engine friction. I'd also guess less prop efficiency but
not sure if that is true or significant.

Fuel prices must be getting to the point where matched GAMI injectors or
homemade EFI makes sense for anyone who flies a lot. (I'd probably leave
the carb for backup and install EFI.) And of course electronic ignition
with ignition advance for high altitude. Some guys have adapted
automotive ignition for one set of plugs. I guess very similar to the GM
DIS ignition that I'm using for backup but a P-mag or E-mag makes a lot
of sense as well.

Based on what we know about Lyc intake manifolds I certainly do believe
your mixture distribution theory Walter. Have you ever tried adding a
bit of carb heat while at altitude? Not intuitive but it might help even
the mixture.

Ken

bgeorgen@peoplepc.com wrote:

Lycoming engine manuals have a chart giving rpm settings for different
altitudes and power ratings along with fuel burn at those ratings (like 75%
and 8 gal/hr at 7500 feet ,ect) . Every thing for a standard atmosphere day,
but I don't think it makes a whole lot of difference.

I made a copy of this chart and hung it on may instrument panel for quick
reference to calculate my power setting and fuel buen for different
altitudes. I lean until my EGT is 1475 F typically at the altitudes I fly
most. Works pretty good. Fuel flow would be nice though.

Bruce G


----- Original Message -----
From: "Walter Klatt" <Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, June 26, 2006 12:43 PM
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] fuel rate

It allows me to lean to a target fuel burn, but adjust it slightly
(usually
between 7.5 - 8 US gph) to find the rpm that allows the smoothest running
and fastest airspeed at a given altitude. The higher I go, the more RPM I
need, and the fuel distribution seems to change as well, as indicated by
the
EGTs. Where I seem to have more trouble is at the higher altitudes where I
can't get as smooth running without more fuel usage. At 10 or 11K, I
sometimes find myself using 8 or 8.5 US gph, which doesn't make sense,
knowing that the engine is producing far less than 75% power. I also need
to
keep reminding myself that the true airspeed is more than my IAS up there,
as it seems slow when I need to push it to get 90 instead of my usual 100
or
105 mph near sea level.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
bransom@dcsol.com
Sent: June 26, 2006 12:08 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] fuel rate

4 EGTs, yes, but I don't quite get how the fuel monitor helps, i.e., you
can't just lean cuz it says it's thirsty. ??
-Ben

This is where my fuel monitor really helps me. It allows me to lean with

EGTs, RPM and ASI, to get the most fuel efficiency and smooth running RPM
at every altitude. I usually cruise at 7.5 US gph where without this gauge
would likely be running at 8 or 8.5 if I just leaned to smooth running.
With my carb, all 4 EGTs don't peak at once, so a little playing around is
always necessary to get the best compromise.

Walter

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[Walter Klatt]

I've heard about the partial carb heat thing to even fuel distribution but
have not tried it, yet. But I do think it's a mixture thing up there, as I
also found there was a fairly narrow range on my mixture control between
rough running too rich or too lean.

And doesn't your spark power change at high altitudes? I have the Bendix
mags on mine.

I usually don't cruise steady up there, as the only reason I go that high is
to get over mountains. So most of the time I am actually still trying to
climb, although at a very low rate. So, my priority was not fuel efficiency
but how much power I can get out of it.

But this summer with my planned trips, I may have more opportunity to play
with my mixture up high, so we'll see. I have it pretty well dialed at the
lower altitudes because that's where I spend most of my time.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Ken
Sent: June 27, 2006 5:28 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] fuel rate

I love a technical mystery but does the chart indicate higher burn at
low altutude if you set the same power that WOT makes at 10k asl? Do we
know that other guys have lower fuel flow at high altutude?

For the same MAP there will be higher mass flow of air (and fuel) at
altitude due to lower exhaust back pressure. Higher rpm will also cause
higher internal engine friction. I'd also guess less prop efficiency but
not sure if that is true or significant.

Fuel prices must be getting to the point where matched GAMI injectors or
homemade EFI makes sense for anyone who flies a lot. (I'd probably leave
the carb for backup and install EFI.) And of course electronic ignition
with ignition advance for high altitude. Some guys have adapted
automotive ignition for one set of plugs. I guess very similar to the GM
DIS ignition that I'm using for backup but a P-mag or E-mag makes a lot
of sense as well.

Based on what we know about Lyc intake manifolds I certainly do believe
your mixture distribution theory Walter. Have you ever tried adding a
bit of carb heat while at altitude? Not intuitive but it might help even
the mixture.

Ken

bgeorgen@peoplepc.com wrote:

Lycoming engine manuals have a chart giving rpm settings for different
altitudes and power ratings along with fuel burn at those ratings (like 75%

and 8 gal/hr at 7500 feet ,ect) . Every thing for a standard atmosphere

day,

but I don't think it makes a whole lot of difference.

I made a copy of this chart and hung it on may instrument panel for quick
reference to calculate my power setting and fuel buen for different
altitudes. I lean until my EGT is 1475 F typically at the altitudes I fly
most. Works pretty good. Fuel flow would be nice though.

Bruce G


----- Original Message -----
From: "Walter Klatt" <Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, June 26, 2006 12:43 PM
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] fuel rate

It allows me to lean to a target fuel burn, but adjust it slightly
(usually
between 7.5 - 8 US gph) to find the rpm that allows the smoothest running
and fastest airspeed at a given altitude. The higher I go, the more RPM I
need, and the fuel distribution seems to change as well, as indicated by
the
EGTs. Where I seem to have more trouble is at the higher altitudes where I
can't get as smooth running without more fuel usage. At 10 or 11K, I
sometimes find myself using 8 or 8.5 US gph, which doesn't make sense,
knowing that the engine is producing far less than 75% power. I also need
to
keep reminding myself that the true airspeed is more than my IAS up there,
as it seems slow when I need to push it to get 90 instead of my usual 100
or
105 mph near sea level.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
bransom@dcsol.com
Sent: June 26, 2006 12:08 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] fuel rate

4 EGTs, yes, but I don't quite get how the fuel monitor helps, i.e., you
can't just lean cuz it says it's thirsty. ??
-Ben

This is where my fuel monitor really helps me. It allows me to lean with

EGTs, RPM and ASI, to get the most fuel efficiency and smooth running RPM
at every altitude. I usually cruise at 7.5 US gph where without this gauge
would likely be running at 8 or 8.5 if I just leaned to smooth running.
With my carb, all 4 EGTs don't peak at once, so a little playing around is
always necessary to get the best compromise.

Walter

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[Bruce Georgen]

Ken,

No. The charts don't get that technical.

Some of us guys who fly back country like the carbs and mags so we can hand prop in the event you find yourself stranded with a dead battery or electrical system.

I too have have heard a little carb heat at altitude can smooth out a rough engine. Never tried it though. I don't like to fly as high as Walter. I'm afraid of heights.

Bruce G

-----Original Message-----

From: Ken <klehman@albedo.net>
Sent: Jun 27, 2006 8:27 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] fuel rate

I love a technical mystery but does the chart indicate higher burn at
low altutude if you set the same power that WOT makes at 10k asl? Do we
know that other guys have lower fuel flow at high altutude?

For the same MAP there will be higher mass flow of air (and fuel) at
altitude due to lower exhaust back pressure. Higher rpm will also cause
higher internal engine friction. I'd also guess less prop efficiency but
not sure if that is true or significant.

Fuel prices must be getting to the point where matched GAMI injectors or
homemade EFI makes sense for anyone who flies a lot. (I'd probably leave
the carb for backup and install EFI.) And of course electronic ignition
with ignition advance for high altitude. Some guys have adapted
automotive ignition for one set of plugs. I guess very similar to the GM
DIS ignition that I'm using for backup but a P-mag or E-mag makes a lot
of sense as well.

Based on what we know about Lyc intake manifolds I certainly do believe
your mixture distribution theory Walter. Have you ever tried adding a
bit of carb heat while at altitude? Not intuitive but it might help even
the mixture.

Ken

bgeorgen@peoplepc.com wrote:

Lycoming engine manuals have a chart giving rpm settings for different
altitudes and power ratings along with fuel burn at those ratings (like 75%
and 8 gal/hr at 7500 feet ,ect) . Every thing for a standard atmosphere day,
but I don't think it makes a whole lot of difference.

I made a copy of this chart and hung it on may instrument panel for quick
reference to calculate my power setting and fuel buen for different
altitudes. I lean until my EGT is 1475 F typically at the altitudes I fly
most. Works pretty good. Fuel flow would be nice though.

Bruce G


----- Original Message -----
From: "Walter Klatt" <Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, June 26, 2006 12:43 PM
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] fuel rate

It allows me to lean to a target fuel burn, but adjust it slightly
(usually
between 7.5 - 8 US gph) to find the rpm that allows the smoothest running
and fastest airspeed at a given altitude. The higher I go, the more RPM I
need, and the fuel distribution seems to change as well, as indicated by
the
EGTs. Where I seem to have more trouble is at the higher altitudes where I
can't get as smooth running without more fuel usage. At 10 or 11K, I
sometimes find myself using 8 or 8.5 US gph, which doesn't make sense,
knowing that the engine is producing far less than 75% power. I also need
to
keep reminding myself that the true airspeed is more than my IAS up there,
as it seems slow when I need to push it to get 90 instead of my usual 100
or
105 mph near sea level.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
bransom@dcsol.com
Sent: June 26, 2006 12:08 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] fuel rate

4 EGTs, yes, but I don't quite get how the fuel monitor helps, i.e., you
can't just lean cuz it says it's thirsty. ??
-Ben


EGTs, RPM and ASI, to get the most fuel efficiency and smooth running RPM
at every altitude. I usually cruise at 7.5 US gph where without this gauge
would likely be running at 8 or 8.5 if I just leaned to smooth running.
With my carb, all 4 EGTs don't peak at once, so a little playing around is
always necessary to get the best compromise.

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