angle-of-attack and airspeed indicators

[Tim Saxton]

I've been lurking on the list for some time and thought it was time to join
in...

The talk about landings had me wondering about using angle-of-attack
indicators. Wouldn't a good solution be to use a modern AOA indicator to
setup the desired angle of attack, and use power to control the sink rate.
By specifying desired approach/landing speeds I think you are really trying
to achieve a desired angle of attack, but using airspeed to indirectly
measure the angle. The problem is that aircraft behavior as a function of
airspeed will change with weight and other conditions, whereas it's behavior
with AOA is unchanged. For instance, the stall angle of attack is the same
for all weights, bank angles, density altitudes. And AOA indicators are more
accurate at higher angle of attacks eg. during landing, whereas airspeed
measurements become less accurate. I would expect (from what I read) that an
AOA indicator would give you better and more repeatable landings and also
provide a stall warning.

Anyway, I'm planning on installing an AOA in my SR. If your interested check
out http://www.angle-of-attack.com/. I would be interested if others have an
opinion (I have no experience except what I read, won't get my pilot's
license until the SR is nearing completion).

For airspeed indicators, it seems logical that that the under wing type
pitot tubes would be more accurate as BobP suggests. The air under the wing
is moving more or less parallel to the bottom of the wing. Whereas with the
pitot tube on the leading edge the airflow will make an angle (relative to
the pitot tube) equal to the angle of attack, so airspeed errors have to
increase at lower speeds. Of course if you have have a AOA indicator then
you won't be looking at airspeed while landing, but in general I would want
to have all of the instruments as accurate as is (reasonably) possible. I
have MAM's pitot tube but I think I'll look into the under wing types.

Tim Saxton
SR060 (getting ready to pro-seal the wings)


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[Doug Martin]

I don't know about the other folks, but I have flown a lot of angle
indicators and coming from the old school I was looking outside not inside.
By the time I look inside then re focues outside it was too late. The only
place that I have had any success with them was in the corporate jets,
where you have a more stable approach and the gusts, propwash etc. were of
little effect. I found them to be very acurate but not practicale in small
aircraft (including helicopters) And then close to the flair where you
would realy need it I need to be looking outside. When you mount them on
top of the instrument panel they tend to kill your scan rate when looking
for other aircraft.

At 06:44 PM 5/23/2000 -0700, you wrote:

I've been lurking on the list for some time and thought it was time to join
in...

The talk about landings had me wondering about using angle-of-attack
indicators. Wouldn't a good solution be to use a modern AOA indicator to
setup the desired angle of attack, and use power to control the sink rate.
By specifying desired approach/landing speeds I think you are really trying
to achieve a desired angle of attack, but using airspeed to indirectly
measure the angle. The problem is that aircraft behavior as a function of
airspeed will change with weight and other conditions, whereas it's behavior
with AOA is unchanged. For instance, the stall angle of attack is the same
for all weights, bank angles, density altitudes. And AOA indicators are more
accurate at higher angle of attacks eg. during landing, whereas airspeed
measurements become less accurate. I would expect (from what I read) that an
AOA indicator would give you better and more repeatable landings and also
provide a stall warning.

Anyway, I'm planning on installing an AOA in my SR. If your interested check
out http://www.angle-of-attack.com/. I would be interested if others have an
opinion (I have no experience except what I read, won't get my pilot's
license until the SR is nearing completion).

For airspeed indicators, it seems logical that that the under wing type
pitot tubes would be more accurate as BobP suggests. The air under the wing
is moving more or less parallel to the bottom of the wing. Whereas with the
pitot tube on the leading edge the airflow will make an angle (relative to
the pitot tube) equal to the angle of attack, so airspeed errors have to
increase at lower speeds. Of course if you have have a AOA indicator then
you won't be looking at airspeed while landing, but in general I would want
to have all of the instruments as accurate as is (reasonably) possible. I
have MAM's pitot tube but I think I'll look into the under wing types.

Tim Saxton
SR060 (getting ready to pro-seal the wings)


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greyghost@powernet.net
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[Bob Patterson]

Hi Tim !!

You are correct - AOA indicators can add safety to approaches.
The military use AOA indicators as the primary reference for a safe
approach speed. And ... the more useful indicators you have, the better !
Glider pilots are taught to use visual angles, control feel, and SOUND
- all the senses - to gain knowledge about the aircraft's situation.

<My> training would not allow me to use power to regulate my descent
- we HAD to do it with AOA (and airspeed) changes. I still prefer this
method - it develops judgement that will be useful in engine-out situations.

- doesn't mean you can't use AOA indicator, just makes the approach
more demanding, as you must pick your touchdown spot, and adjust glide
angle accordingly, with speed, flap, spoiler, or sideslip, while staying
within your chosen AOA range. An AOA indicator would be a useful addition,
especially while you're learning.

Have fun with your Super !!
....bobp

--------------------------------orig.--------------------------------------
At 06:44 PM 5/23/00 -0700, you wrote:

I've been lurking on the list for some time and thought it was time to join
in...

The talk about landings had me wondering about using angle-of-attack
indicators. Wouldn't a good solution be to use a modern AOA indicator to
setup the desired angle of attack, and use power to control the sink rate.
By specifying desired approach/landing speeds I think you are really trying
to achieve a desired angle of attack, but using airspeed to indirectly
measure the angle. The problem is that aircraft behavior as a function of
airspeed will change with weight and other conditions, whereas it's behavior
with AOA is unchanged. For instance, the stall angle of attack is the same
for all weights, bank angles, density altitudes. And AOA indicators are more
accurate at higher angle of attacks eg. during landing, whereas airspeed
measurements become less accurate. I would expect (from what I read) that an
AOA indicator would give you better and more repeatable landings and also
provide a stall warning.

Anyway, I'm planning on installing an AOA in my SR. If your interested check
out http://www.angle-of-attack.com/. I would be interested if others have an
opinion (I have no experience except what I read, won't get my pilot's
license until the SR is nearing completion).

For airspeed indicators, it seems logical that that the under wing type
pitot tubes would be more accurate as BobP suggests. The air under the wing
is moving more or less parallel to the bottom of the wing. Whereas with the
pitot tube on the leading edge the airflow will make an angle (relative to
the pitot tube) equal to the angle of attack, so airspeed errors have to
increase at lower speeds. Of course if you have have a AOA indicator then
you won't be looking at airspeed while landing, but in general I would want
to have all of the instruments as accurate as is (reasonably) possible. I
have MAM's pitot tube but I think I'll look into the under wing types.

Tim Saxton
SR060 (getting ready to pro-seal the wings)


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[Bob Patterson]

I'm with you, Doug !! We are safest when we are LOOKING OUTSIDE !
Glider pilots are trained to fly with the instruments covered, using
just attitude, control feel, and sound to assist judgement for landing,
and they manage quite well !

During early training, they have the instruments as a guide -
pick an attitude, hold it, and observe the ASI. Now they now the attitude,
sound, and feel for that speed...

If people want to use an AOA indicator as well, that is fine,
and likely more accurate than the ASI, but these are only GUIDES. You
are correct - the pilot should have his eyes outside on final. And
as much as possible at other times, too - I've had several near misses
with pilots flying "head down & locked", studying the panel !!

.......bobp

-----------------------------orig.--------------------------------------
At 09:00 PM 5/23/00 -0700, you wrote:

I don't know about the other folks, but I have flown a lot of angle
indicators and coming from the old school I was looking outside not inside.
By the time I look inside then re focues outside it was too late. The only
place that I have had any success with them was in the corporate jets,
where you have a more stable approach and the gusts, propwash etc. were of
little effect. I found them to be very acurate but not practicale in small
aircraft (including helicopters) And then close to the flair where you
would realy need it I need to be looking outside. When you mount them on
top of the instrument panel they tend to kill your scan rate when looking
for other aircraft.

At 06:44 PM 5/23/2000 -0700, you wrote:

I've been lurking on the list for some time and thought it was time to join
in...

The talk about landings had me wondering about using angle-of-attack
indicators. Wouldn't a good solution be to use a modern AOA indicator to
setup the desired angle of attack, and use power to control the sink rate.
By specifying desired approach/landing speeds I think you are really trying
to achieve a desired angle of attack, but using airspeed to indirectly
measure the angle. The problem is that aircraft behavior as a function of
airspeed will change with weight and other conditions, whereas it's behavior
with AOA is unchanged. For instance, the stall angle of attack is the same
for all weights, bank angles, density altitudes. And AOA indicators are more
accurate at higher angle of attacks eg. during landing, whereas airspeed
measurements become less accurate. I would expect (from what I read) that an
AOA indicator would give you better and more repeatable landings and also
provide a stall warning.

Anyway, I'm planning on installing an AOA in my SR. If your interested check
out http://www.angle-of-attack.com/. I would be interested if others have an
opinion (I have no experience except what I read, won't get my pilot's
license until the SR is nearing completion).

For airspeed indicators, it seems logical that that the under wing type
pitot tubes would be more accurate as BobP suggests. The air under the wing
is moving more or less parallel to the bottom of the wing. Whereas with the
pitot tube on the leading edge the airflow will make an angle (relative to
the pitot tube) equal to the angle of attack, so airspeed errors have to
increase at lower speeds. Of course if you have have a AOA indicator then
you won't be looking at airspeed while landing, but in general I would want
to have all of the instruments as accurate as is (reasonably) possible. I
have MAM's pitot tube but I think I'll look into the under wing types.

Tim Saxton
SR060 (getting ready to pro-seal the wings)


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*--------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Doug Martin
greyghost@powernet.net
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[Tim Saxton]

Thanks for the comments. I agree that either AOA or ASI should be used for
reference only. It seems that AOA might provide better information during
landing. I've also been told, by a glider instructor, that glider training
will develop good stick and rudder skills and a better feel for energy
management (in addition to being a lot of fun). I imagine these skills would
help improve landing technique in a light plane.

Tim

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Patterson [mailto:bob.patterson@canrem.com]
Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2000 6:08 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: angle-of-attack and airspeed indicators


I'm with you, Doug !! We are safest when we are LOOKING OUTSIDE !
Glider pilots are trained to fly with the instruments covered, using
just attitude, control feel, and sound to assist judgement for landing,
and they manage quite well !

During early training, they have the instruments as a guide -
pick an attitude, hold it, and observe the ASI. Now they now the attitude,
sound, and feel for that speed...

If people want to use an AOA indicator as well, that is fine,
and likely more accurate than the ASI, but these are only GUIDES. You
are correct - the pilot should have his eyes outside on final. And
as much as possible at other times, too - I've had several near misses
with pilots flying "head down & locked", studying the panel !!

.......bobp

-----------------------------orig.--------------------------------------
At 09:00 PM 5/23/00 -0700, you wrote:

I don't know about the other folks, but I have flown a lot of angle
indicators and coming from the old school I was looking outside not inside.
By the time I look inside then re focues outside it was too late. The only
place that I have had any success with them was in the corporate jets,
where you have a more stable approach and the gusts, propwash etc. were of
little effect. I found them to be very acurate but not practicale in small
aircraft (including helicopters) And then close to the flair where you
would realy need it I need to be looking outside. When you mount them on
top of the instrument panel they tend to kill your scan rate when looking
for other aircraft.

At 06:44 PM 5/23/2000 -0700, you wrote:

I've been lurking on the list for some time and thought it was time to

join

in...

The talk about landings had me wondering about using angle-of-attack
indicators. Wouldn't a good solution be to use a modern AOA indicator to
setup the desired angle of attack, and use power to control the sink rate.
By specifying desired approach/landing speeds I think you are really

trying

to achieve a desired angle of attack, but using airspeed to indirectly
measure the angle. The problem is that aircraft behavior as a function of
airspeed will change with weight and other conditions, whereas it's

behavior

with AOA is unchanged. For instance, the stall angle of attack is the same
for all weights, bank angles, density altitudes. And AOA indicators are

more

accurate at higher angle of attacks eg. during landing, whereas airspeed
measurements become less accurate. I would expect (from what I read) that

an

AOA indicator would give you better and more repeatable landings and also
provide a stall warning.

Anyway, I'm planning on installing an AOA in my SR. If your interested

check

out http://www.angle-of-attack.com/. I would be interested if others have

an

opinion (I have no experience except what I read, won't get my pilot's
license until the SR is nearing completion).

For airspeed indicators, it seems logical that that the under wing type
pitot tubes would be more accurate as BobP suggests. The air under the

wing

is moving more or less parallel to the bottom of the wing. Whereas with

the

pitot tube on the leading edge the airflow will make an angle (relative to
the pitot tube) equal to the angle of attack, so airspeed errors have to
increase at lower speeds. Of course if you have have a AOA indicator then
you won't be looking at airspeed while landing, but in general I would

want

to have all of the instruments as accurate as is (reasonably) possible. I
have MAM's pitot tube but I think I'll look into the under wing types.

Tim Saxton
SR060 (getting ready to pro-seal the wings)


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greyghost@powernet.net
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[Doug Martin]

Mr. bobp is correct, however I haven't had the pleasure of the gliders,
(except once for 15 minutes) I recommend to all of the new pilots that they
need two things to round out the flying expertise. One is the gliders as
bob said and the other is aerobatics. Just do not get in a hurry to try
them all at once give yourself about 300 to 400 hours before you get
carried away trying to learn it all. You never will!!

At 09:15 PM 5/26/2000 -0400, you wrote:

Absolutely, Tim !! If you get a chance, go get a few hours in gliders.
You really <will> enjoy it, and it WILL help considerably with power flying !
Many people (including Richard Bach !) recommend learning to fly in gliders,
then moving on to power. I did both - started in power for 5 years, moved to
gliding for 6 years, then came back to power, and continued to do both
from there on - have been a glider instructor since 1972...

Gliding is pure flying, just for fun ! Ridge soaring and mountain
wave flying in gliders can give you incredible thrills, and increase your
knowledge & respect for this sea of air we fly in. Flights of over 1,000 km
at speeds of 120 mph + have been made along ridges in gliders, and I've
spent 6 hours at 30,000 ft. over Colorado Springs in a glider ! There's
NO 'rush' like hooking into mountain wave at 800 ft. agl, and climbing at
over 2,000 fpm, all the way to 20,000 ft. (in New Hampshire) !!!

Just flying locally, learning to use thermals to climb, and being
able to stay up as long as you want, and climb to cloudbase, can be a
very satisfying and thrilling experience.

Skills acquired gliding can be useful for power flying - certainly
your judgement when landing is improved ! You can also increase your
average cross country speed by over 10 mph in good conditions, in almost
any kind of powered airplane, by using thermal lift & glider 'dolphin'
techniques !! If you fly low-powered aircraft (like our old Piper J-4)
on hot days, being able to use thermals to increase your climb (or just
GIVE you SOME climb ! ) can be a lifesaver sometime ! :-)

.....bobp

Doug Martin
greyghost@powernet.net
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[Bob Patterson]

Absolutely, Tim !! If you get a chance, go get a few hours in gliders.
You really <will> enjoy it, and it WILL help considerably with power flying !
Many people (including Richard Bach !) recommend learning to fly in gliders,
then moving on to power. I did both - started in power for 5 years, moved to
gliding for 6 years, then came back to power, and continued to do both
from there on - have been a glider instructor since 1972...

Gliding is pure flying, just for fun ! Ridge soaring and mountain
wave flying in gliders can give you incredible thrills, and increase your
knowledge & respect for this sea of air we fly in. Flights of over 1,000 km
at speeds of 120 mph + have been made along ridges in gliders, and I've
spent 6 hours at 30,000 ft. over Colorado Springs in a glider ! There's
NO 'rush' like hooking into mountain wave at 800 ft. agl, and climbing at
over 2,000 fpm, all the way to 20,000 ft. (in New Hampshire) !!!

Just flying locally, learning to use thermals to climb, and being
able to stay up as long as you want, and climb to cloudbase, can be a
very satisfying and thrilling experience.

Skills acquired gliding can be useful for power flying - certainly
your judgement when landing is improved ! You can also increase your
average cross country speed by over 10 mph in good conditions, in almost
any kind of powered airplane, by using thermal lift & glider 'dolphin'
techniques !! If you fly low-powered aircraft (like our old Piper J-4)
on hot days, being able to use thermals to increase your climb (or just
GIVE you SOME climb ! ) can be a lifesaver sometime ! :-)

.....bobp

-------------------------------orig.------------------------------------------
At 09:35 AM 5/26/00 -0700, you wrote:

Thanks for the comments. I agree that either AOA or ASI should be used for
reference only. It seems that AOA might provide better information during
landing. I've also been told, by a glider instructor, that glider training
will develop good stick and rudder skills and a better feel for energy
management (in addition to being a lot of fun). I imagine these skills would
help improve landing technique in a light plane.

Tim

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Patterson [mailto:bob.patterson@canrem.com]
Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2000 6:08 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: angle-of-attack and airspeed indicators


I'm with you, Doug !! We are safest when we are LOOKING OUTSIDE !
Glider pilots are trained to fly with the instruments covered, using
just attitude, control feel, and sound to assist judgement for landing,
and they manage quite well !

During early training, they have the instruments as a guide -
pick an attitude, hold it, and observe the ASI. Now they now the attitude,
sound, and feel for that speed...

If people want to use an AOA indicator as well, that is fine,
and likely more accurate than the ASI, but these are only GUIDES. You
are correct - the pilot should have his eyes outside on final. And
as much as possible at other times, too - I've had several near misses
with pilots flying "head down & locked", studying the panel !!

.......bobp

-----------------------------orig.--------------------------------------
At 09:00 PM 5/23/00 -0700, you wrote:

I don't know about the other folks, but I have flown a lot of angle
indicators and coming from the old school I was looking outside not inside.
By the time I look inside then re focues outside it was too late. The only
place that I have had any success with them was in the corporate jets,
where you have a more stable approach and the gusts, propwash etc. were of
little effect. I found them to be very acurate but not practicale in small
aircraft (including helicopters) And then close to the flair where you
would realy need it I need to be looking outside. When you mount them on
top of the instrument panel they tend to kill your scan rate when looking
for other aircraft.

At 06:44 PM 5/23/2000 -0700, you wrote:

I've been lurking on the list for some time and thought it was time to

join

in...

The talk about landings had me wondering about using angle-of-attack
indicators. Wouldn't a good solution be to use a modern AOA indicator to
setup the desired angle of attack, and use power to control the sink rate.
By specifying desired approach/landing speeds I think you are really

trying

to achieve a desired angle of attack, but using airspeed to indirectly
measure the angle. The problem is that aircraft behavior as a function of
airspeed will change with weight and other conditions, whereas it's

behavior

with AOA is unchanged. For instance, the stall angle of attack is the same
for all weights, bank angles, density altitudes. And AOA indicators are

more

accurate at higher angle of attacks eg. during landing, whereas airspeed
measurements become less accurate. I would expect (from what I read) that

an

AOA indicator would give you better and more repeatable landings and also
provide a stall warning.

Anyway, I'm planning on installing an AOA in my SR. If your interested

check

out http://www.angle-of-attack.com/. I would be interested if others have

an

opinion (I have no experience except what I read, won't get my pilot's
license until the SR is nearing completion).

For airspeed indicators, it seems logical that that the under wing type
pitot tubes would be more accurate as BobP suggests. The air under the

wing

is moving more or less parallel to the bottom of the wing. Whereas with

the

pitot tube on the leading edge the airflow will make an angle (relative to
the pitot tube) equal to the angle of attack, so airspeed errors have to
increase at lower speeds. Of course if you have have a AOA indicator then
you won't be looking at airspeed while landing, but in general I would

want

to have all of the instruments as accurate as is (reasonably) possible. I
have MAM's pitot tube but I think I'll look into the under wing types.

Tim Saxton
SR060 (getting ready to pro-seal the wings)


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greyghost@powernet.net
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[Bob Patterson]

Right again, Doug !! Aerobatics will really give you confidence
in many situations, and allow you to recover from events that could
otherwise prove fatal - like wake turbulence on final, or the rotor
from a mountain wave.

A BIG caution, though, to all - DO <NOT> attempt to teach yourself
aerobatics !! If you're not completely comfortable with spins, get
a qualified instructor to fly with you in the Rebel, and see what it's
like. While the Rebel is very gentle, and won't spin unless provoked
and held in, it WILL spin, and VERY quickly, too, after the first turn !!
It will recover instantly, so there's no danger, provided everything is
done properly, at a safe altitude. You should do this, so that you are
aware of what the Rebel feels like as it enters, and how quickly it
will recover, following correct procedures. You can fly quite slowly
with the Rebel, and get into many small & interesting fields, and
an awareness of exactly what it does at low speeds can be VERY useful !!

In test flying, the Rebel has been spun & recovered AT the AFT
CofG limit, and looped & rolled, and proven to be safe & capable in
these maneuvers,>> at reduced weight, when flown within limits, by
an experienced pilot <<. The Rebel is NOT currently approved/licenced for
aerobatics in Canada.

While a good aerobatics course will definitely make you safer,
I considered my aerobatic instruction endorsement as a "licence to
learn" - you should practice frequently to maintain & improve your
skills. I usually do clean & full-flap stalls, and full-flap slow flight
(level, at 30 - 35 mph !), in the Rebel about every third to fifth flight,
& try to spin the Rebel at least once every couple of months, just to stay
current & safer.

.....bobp

------------------------------orig.----------------------------------------
At 08:45 PM 5/26/00 -0700, you wrote:

Mr. bobp is correct, however I haven't had the pleasure of the gliders,
(except once for 15 minutes) I recommend to all of the new pilots that they
need two things to round out the flying expertise. One is the gliders as
bob said and the other is aerobatics. Just do not get in a hurry to try
them all at once give yourself about 300 to 400 hours before you get
carried away trying to learn it all. You never will!!

At 09:15 PM 5/26/2000 -0400, you wrote:

Absolutely, Tim !! If you get a chance, go get a few hours in gliders.
You really <will> enjoy it, and it WILL help considerably with power flying !
Many people (including Richard Bach !) recommend learning to fly in gliders,
then moving on to power. I did both - started in power for 5 years, moved to
gliding for 6 years, then came back to power, and continued to do both
from there on - have been a glider instructor since 1972...

Gliding is pure flying, just for fun ! Ridge soaring and mountain
wave flying in gliders can give you incredible thrills, and increase your
knowledge & respect for this sea of air we fly in. Flights of over 1,000 km
at speeds of 120 mph + have been made along ridges in gliders, and I've
spent 6 hours at 30,000 ft. over Colorado Springs in a glider ! There's
NO 'rush' like hooking into mountain wave at 800 ft. agl, and climbing at
over 2,000 fpm, all the way to 20,000 ft. (in New Hampshire) !!!

Just flying locally, learning to use thermals to climb, and being
able to stay up as long as you want, and climb to cloudbase, can be a
very satisfying and thrilling experience.

Skills acquired gliding can be useful for power flying - certainly
your judgement when landing is improved ! You can also increase your
average cross country speed by over 10 mph in good conditions, in almost
any kind of powered airplane, by using thermal lift & glider 'dolphin'
techniques !! If you fly low-powered aircraft (like our old Piper J-4)
on hot days, being able to use thermals to increase your climb (or just
GIVE you SOME climb ! ) can be a lifesaver sometime ! :-)

.....bobp

Doug Martin
greyghost@powernet.net
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