Rebel as Light Sport aircraft

[Ralph Baker]

Bob P makes the point that an LSA could be uprated with an engine change and gross weight increased. However, the reverse is not possible. Once an aircraft is registered at a weight (on wheels) greater than 1320 pounds it can never be used under LSA rules.
Ralph Baker



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[Bob Patterson]

Thanks Ralph !

There are lots of twists & wrinkles in these rules !! Guess that
makes it VERY important for anyone planning LSA to keep the weight down,
and register at 1,319 lb !! ;-) :-) ....even if Experimental !

An interesting point for Canada, as 1,320 lb is the point where
Nav-Scam starts charging fees for use of airspace ! We get an invoice
every year, and the amount keeps increasing ! :-( Guess my next Rebel
will be 1,319 gross, too !! :-)

......bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Thursday 19 January 2006 10:15 am, Ralph Baker wrote:

Bob P makes the point that an LSA could be uprated with an engine change

and gross weight increased. However, the reverse is not possible. Once an
aircraft is registered at a weight (on wheels) greater than 1320 pounds it
can never be used under LSA rules.

Ralph Baker

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[pequeajim]

Bob:

Someone may correct me if I am wrong, but I thought once you register an
aircraft as an experimental, it stays that way, no LSA.

Someone help me here?

On 1/19/2006 8:41 AM, beep@sympatico.ca wrote to rebel-builders:

->
-> Thanks Ralph !
->
-> There are lots of twists & wrinkles in these rules !! Guess that
-> makes it VERY important for anyone planning LSA to keep the weight down,
-> and register at 1,319 lb !! ;-) :-) ....even if Experimental !
->
-> An interesting point for Canada, as 1,320 lb is the point where
-> Nav-Scam starts charging fees for use of airspace ! We get an invoice
-> every year, and the amount keeps increasing ! :-( Guess my next Rebel
-> will be 1,319 gross, too !! :-)
->
-> ......bobp
->
-> -------------------------------orig.-------------------------
-> On Thursday 19 January 2006 10:15 am, Ralph Baker wrote:
-> > Bob P makes the point that an LSA could be uprated with an engine change
-> and gross weight increased. However, the reverse is not possible. Once
an
-> aircraft is registered at a weight (on wheels) greater than 1320 pounds it
-> can never be used under LSA rules.
-> > Ralph Baker
-> >
-> >





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[Drew Dalgleish]

An interesting point for Canada, as 1,320 lb is the point where
Nav-Scam starts charging fees for use of airspace ! We get an invoice
every year, and the amount keeps increasing ! :-( Guess my next Rebel
will be 1,319 gross, too !! :-)

......bobp

Hi bob According to COPA it seems likely that aircraft under the weight are
going to have to pay as well.
Drew





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[John Kramer]

An amateur built experimental can be of any specification. If it
happens to comply with the 1320 lb rule and flight performance
specifications, like certified aircraft of similar specs, it can be
flown with no medical on a private or better license or on a Sport
pilot license under the sport pilot rules. As with any amateur built
it can be rebuilt and specifications modified on the registration and
in the logs. Any of the _LSA classes can never be anything
else. Once rated above sport pilot class it can't go back i.e., an
Ercoupe C converted to D can't be a C again (though this may change,
as may several other details). This is to the best of my current
understanding of Bureau-speak.

John...


At 04:31 PM 01/19/06, you wrote:

Bob:

Someone may correct me if I am wrong, but I thought once you register an
aircraft as an experimental, it stays that way, no LSA.

Someone help me here?

On 1/19/2006 8:41 AM, beep@sympatico.ca wrote to rebel-builders:

->
-> Thanks Ralph !
->
-> There are lots of twists & wrinkles in these rules !! Guess that
-> makes it VERY important for anyone planning LSA to keep the weight down,
-> and register at 1,319 lb !! ;-) :-) ....even if Experimental !
->
-> An interesting point for Canada, as 1,320 lb is the point where
-> Nav-Scam starts charging fees for use of airspace ! We get an invoice
-> every year, and the amount keeps increasing ! :-( Guess my next Rebel
-> will be 1,319 gross, too !! :-)
->
-> ......bobp
->
-> -------------------------------orig.-------------------------
-> On Thursday 19 January 2006 10:15 am, Ralph Baker wrote:
-> > Bob P makes the point that an LSA could be uprated with an engine change
-> and gross weight increased. However, the reverse is not possible. Once
an
-> aircraft is registered at a weight (on wheels) greater than 1320 pounds it
-> can never be used under LSA rules.
-> > Ralph Baker
-> >
-> >





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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fly too low or too slow and the ground will rise up and smite thee.





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[Bob Patterson]

Sorry for the confusion Jim ! John has clarified the situation.

My thought was that THE way to go is register EXPERIMENTAL,
but meeting the LSA specs - that way you can fly with a Sport Pilot
Licence or equivalent, but be free to do your own work & mods on
the Rebel. Should you ever decide to sell, the buyer has the option
of going to a bigger engine, or whatever - yes, losing the choice to
fly on a Sport Pilot licence, but having a GREAT airplane !

It's all about CHOICES - going just ELSA would restrict
some options, and might hurt resale value .... it's a smaller market.
Same thing here in Canada - if you register UltraLight, there's no
way to upgrade, but if you are Amateur Built, and meet U/L specs,
you can fly with a U/L or Recreational licence.

......bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Thursday 19 January 2006 05:31 pm, pequeajim@dcsol.com wrote:

Bob:

Someone may correct me if I am wrong, but I thought once you register an
aircraft as an experimental, it stays that way, no LSA.

Someone help me here?

On 1/19/2006 8:41 AM, beep@sympatico.ca wrote to rebel-builders:

->
-> Thanks Ralph !
->
-> There are lots of twists & wrinkles in these rules !! Guess that
-> makes it VERY important for anyone planning LSA to keep the weight

down,

-> and register at 1,319 lb !! ;-) :-) ....even if Experimental !
->
-> An interesting point for Canada, as 1,320 lb is the point where
-> Nav-Scam starts charging fees for use of airspace ! We get an invoice
-> every year, and the amount keeps increasing ! :-( Guess my next Rebel
-> will be 1,319 gross, too !! :-)
->
-> ......bobp
->
-> -------------------------------orig.-------------------------
-> On Thursday 19 January 2006 10:15 am, Ralph Baker wrote:
-> > Bob P makes the point that an LSA could be uprated with an engine

change

-> and gross weight increased. However, the reverse is not possible.

Once

an
-> aircraft is registered at a weight (on wheels) greater than 1320 pounds

it

-> can never be used under LSA rules.
-> > Ralph Baker
-> >
-> >





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[Ron Shannon]

Following is a lengthy (!) ramble on some of the sport plane weight
issues. Proceed only if you're interested, and have some time.

------------------
I've had extensive communication (email and phone) with EAA's legal
beagles on these points in the last couple of weeks. They confirm most
of what John says below, except that if an amateur built experimental
(ABE, hereinafter -- and that's not an ELSA) has _ever_ been flown with
a weight and balance cert over 1320 lbs. it cannot be later downgraded
to that limit and thereby qualify as a sport plane. This point was also
clearly stated in the EAA's sport plane Q&A column appearing in one of
the recent AOPA magazine editions (Dec.?)

However, as John states, if the ABE has ALWAYS been operated (i.e., with
W&B cert) at or below 1320 lbs., then it will qualify as a sport plane,
at least with respect to weight. The other elements (max. speed, stall,
etc.) also have to qualify, of course.

Similarly, with a new ABE, the builder (that's you) establishes the
gross weight, NOT the kit mfgr. (even though we'd be nuts not to pay
attention to what the kit designer thinks, of course.) So for example,
there's no legal reason why you couldn't build an Elite at 1050 empty
weight, and register it as an ABE LSA, with a weight and balance cert.
that limits operation to 1320 lbs. Granted, when the plane is inspected,
the examiner might take a dim view this arrangement if the kit mfgr.
states the max gross weight of their design is only, say, 1250 lbs.,
however, the airworthiness cert. cannot be denied on that basis -- even
though it looks like you can only fly a midget pilot with 50 miles worth
of fuel and VFR reserve -- at best.

Indeed, the Elite's performance numbers indicate that it could be built
with an engine/prop combination that would keep it under the 120 kts.
max speed limits, etc. This is why the Elite is listed as a "potential"
LSA at http://sportpilot.org/lsa/likely_lsa.html, even though most of us
wouldn't expect it to qualify, given that MAM lists its design empty
weight at nearly 1000 lbs. Unless the builder can lighten it up, it
doesn't make much "practical" sense to certify it as an ABE LSA, because
you wouldn't be able to do much with 320 lbs. total usable load -- but
you could.

The ELSA is another, special bird. It requires some, but not 51%, of
amateur build contribution (exactly how much is still unclear) and it
must be built from a kit, the fully factory manufactured version of
which has 1) previously been certified as an SLSA, or 2) which the kit
manufacturer swears in writing to the FAA meets the ASTM standards, etc.

Hope that's clearer than mud. There are some other quirks in the
regulatory scheme (and even, obvious errors) that still have to be
ironed out/cleaned up... but I expect they will be fairly soon.

Ron

[Mandatory Disclaimer - Although I am reportedly a retired lawyer, the
former gibberish does not constitute legal advice, could easily be all
wrong, you'd be nuts to rely on it without further research on your own,
yada, yada.]


John Kramer wrote:

An amateur built experimental can be of any specification. If it
happens to comply with the 1320 lb rule and flight performance
specifications, like certified aircraft of similar specs, it can be
flown with no medical on a private or better license or on a Sport
pilot license under the sport pilot rules. As with any amateur built
it can be rebuilt and specifications modified on the registration and
in the logs. Any of the _LSA classes can never be anything
else. Once rated above sport pilot class it can't go back i.e., an
Ercoupe C converted to D can't be a C again (though this may change,
as may several other details). This is to the best of my current
understanding of Bureau-speak.

John...

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[pequeajim]

Hey, no problem Bob. I guess either way, I won't be finishing, (at least my
first) Rebel at a LSA qualified weight.

I was just curious
thanks
Jim!

On 1/19/2006 4:35 PM, beep@sympatico.ca wrote to rebel-builders:

->
-> Sorry for the confusion Jim ! John has clarified the situation.
->
-> My thought was that THE way to go is register EXPERIMENTAL,
-> but meeting the LSA specs - that way you can fly with a Sport Pilot
-> Licence or equivalent, but be free to do your own work & mods on
-> the Rebel. Should you ever decide to sell, the buyer has the option
-> of going to a bigger engine, or whatever - yes, losing the choice to
-> fly on a Sport Pilot licence, but having a GREAT airplane !
->
-> It's all about CHOICES - going just ELSA would restrict
-> some options, and might hurt resale value .... it's a smaller market.
-> Same thing here in Canada - if you register UltraLight, there's no
-> way to upgrade, but if you are Amateur Built, and meet U/L specs,
-> you can fly with a U/L or Recreational licence.
->
-> ......bobp
->
-> -------------------------------orig.-------------------------
-> On Thursday 19 January 2006 05:31 pm, pequeajim@dcsol.com wrote:
-> > Bob:
-> >
-> > Someone may correct me if I am wrong, but I thought once you register an
-> > aircraft as an experimental, it stays that way, no LSA.
-> >
-> > Someone help me here?
-> >
-> > On 1/19/2006 8:41 AM, beep@sympatico.ca wrote to rebel-builders:
-> >
-> > ->
-> > -> Thanks Ralph !
-> > ->
-> > -> There are lots of twists & wrinkles in these rules !! Guess that
-> > -> makes it VERY important for anyone planning LSA to keep the weight
-> down,
-> > -> and register at 1,319 lb !! ;-) :-) ....even if Experimental !
-> > ->
-> > -> An interesting point for Canada, as 1,320 lb is the point where
-> > -> Nav-Scam starts charging fees for use of airspace ! We get an invoice
-> > -> every year, and the amount keeps increasing ! :-( Guess my next Rebel
-> > -> will be 1,319 gross, too !! :-)
-> > ->
-> > -> ......bobp
-> > ->
-> > -> -------------------------------orig.-------------------------
-> > -> On Thursday 19 January 2006 10:15 am, Ralph Baker wrote:
-> > -> > Bob P makes the point that an LSA could be uprated with an engine
-> change
-> > -> and gross weight increased. However, the reverse is not possible.
-> Once
-> > an
-> > -> aircraft is registered at a weight (on wheels) greater than 1320
pounds
-> it
-> > -> can never be used under LSA rules.
-> > -> > Ralph Baker
-> > -> >
-> > -> >
-> >
-> >
-> >
-> >
-> >
-> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
-> > List archives located at: https://www.dcsol.com/login
-> > username "rebel" password "builder"
-> > Subscription services located at:
-> > https://www.dcsol.com/public/code/html-subscribe.htm
-> > List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
-> >
-> >
-> >





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