Rebel spring gear weight

[bransom]

Does the Elite use the same spring gear legs as the Rebel? Or anyone know if
any other kits use these things? They are roughly Grove look alike.
Originally I thought I'd find someone wanting to buy these "upgraded" gear,
but obviously that isn't likely.
-Ben/ 496R



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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

Believe they are the same. I'll hold one up to the Elite in the hangar
tomorrow!

----- Original Message -----
From: <bransom@dcsol.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 6:57 PM
Subject: Re: Rebel spring gear weight

Does the Elite use the same spring gear legs as the Rebel? Or anyone know

if

any other kits use these things? They are roughly Grove look alike.
Originally I thought I'd find someone wanting to buy these "upgraded"

gear,

but obviously that isn't likely.
-Ben/ 496R



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[John Kramer]

Thanks Bob,

13 lbs definitely puts the cuffs back on the consideration list. I'm
still studying and haven't made several firm decisions; that's why my
wings are still in clecos and I'm starting the fuselage until I'm
fully comfortable with final decisions. It has made me the cleco
king of Kansas City.

Your comments on Wayne's firewall mod are well taken, they are one's
I'd considered dropping because I'll be using a small engine
(probably a Rotax, though there's a light diesel that is tempting and
the Rotec is so pretty).

John...


At 01:35 PM 01/18/06, you wrote:

Hi John !

Thanks for the kind words - and the numbers ! Now we have a
definite number - 35 lb. just for component difference....
should make the choice clear for anyone wanting to fit ELSA !

The McKenzie STOL kit, cuffs & fences only added about 13 lb.
total - it does help low-speed performance. The current Fife
wing tips have a setup for lightweight landing lights - IF you
want them for improved visibility. Otherwise, just go with
the nav/strobe combos - I saw the GS-air LED units at Sebring -
very impressive, and only $327 USD for complete package !
https://ssl.perfora.net/gs-air.com/sess ... shopscript
or:
http://www.gs-air.com

Let us know which mods you are considering skipping - depending
on engine choice, most are essential ! Definitely need the FUS-30
doubler, and I would recommend Wayne's firewall plates, even if you
choose a 912 - the Rebel needs that extra weight up front ! Also,
that 1 1/2" or 2" channel along the full width of the bottom of
the instrument panel will strengthen the whole structure, and help
prevent throttle variations/fluctuation when taxiing on rough ground.

.....bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Tuesday 17 January 2006 11:11 pm, John Kramer wrote:

Ron,

Before I learned enough: to find this list, and then to ask the right
questions, and then listen to the right people; someone at MAM
convinced me the spring gear would be better in crosswind landings,
that it was stronger, and offered no weight, or other penalty (I'm
trying to build for 1320 gross and maximum utility) MAM shipped out
the spring gear and I weighed all components (legs, wheels, brakes,
&c.) against all components for the bungee gear that came with my
kit. My scales showed a 35 pound difference, in just component
weight. When you add in the required reinforcements the weight is
more than significant.

The fancier wheels and brakes certainly were nicer and the spring
gear prettier to my eye, each piece was considerably heavier than the
original equivalents. Once I get her standing I'm planning on
Wayne's spring mod, I've already ordered Fife tips, but doubt my
weight limitations will allow for Angus' cuff's. If I was building
to full gross with a fat motor I'd have them for sure. I'm very
carefully picking through the Ontario Mods as I can't afford them
all, for a light plane some seem more important than others.

I was fortunate that Robin agreed to accept the return. I get the
feeling that doesn't often happen.

I have learned to first search the archive, then ask, then listen to
Wayne, Bob, Walt and the others who give so freely of their
considerable knowledge. Without this resource I'm certain far fewer
Rebels would ever fly.

John...369R

At 06:23 PM 01/17/06, you wrote:

How much heavier is the Rebel spring gear, compared to the bungee?

Ron

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[John Kramer]

Wayne,

As always you are exactly right, I have the Matco's and weighed the
bungee cord and all. The kit had the fancy new wheels and brakes.

John...


At 04:57 PM 01/18/06, you wrote:

So on top of the inital 6 lbs difference between MAM supplied bungee and the
spring gear..... a few pounds in plates/rivets/bolts and solid blocks for
the tubes. Lets call it 5 lbs. That leaves us 24lbs....where John's numbers
may lead people astray..BUT if you note he weighed wheels axles etc. This
tells me he has the Matco wheels with the bungee gear and the spring gear
option came with the MAM 3 piece wheels etc which are indeed a lot heavier
than the Matco's. May be light turf tire vs Mcreary or Goodyears in here as
well. I don't know.

No matter how you slice it YOU have to be happy with what you have. It's as
simple as that. If you plan on change overs from floats to wheels each year
the bungee gear is the way to go for simplicity at change over. No adapter
to bolt on after trying to fish the saddle bolts up thru those little
fuselage holes behind the wing strut attach area. Change the bolt
length...bolt on the adapter and then the floats. Same thing in reverse
going back to wheels...etc...etc.

Cheers,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: <jimsrebel@dcsol.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 5:40 PM
Subject: Re: Rebel spring gear weight

Here is an old post regarding spring gear weight.
More info at post# 15699-15717


From: "WAYNE G. O'SHEA" <OIFA@IRISHFIELD.ON.CA> Number: 15717 Private:
No
To: ALL Reference: None Reads: 36
Date: 2/27/2004 12:40 PM Received: No Exported
Subject: Re: Spring gear leg wieght
Conference: Rebel Builders


Well this weeks wakes and funeral are out of the way, so I've had a bit

of

time to add to this today.

Weighed a set of aluminum gear legs (main/drag brace/joiner gusset
etc-everything but axle and wheel assembly) and bungee struts/safety cable
and bungee loops with bracing and cover of .025 = 14lbs

Same gear legs but with my 6" die spring struts instead = 20lbs

Pair of leaf gear legs with outboard saddle brackets = 20lbs

Therefore there would be no net difference between the "piper style" gear
legs using my die spring struts and the "leaf" leg gear when it comes to
installing the floats, other than maybe the minimal weight of the bolt on
float brackets for strut pickup at the fuselage if you have the leaf gear.

The overall empty weight of the aircraft is another thing due to the plate
doublers in the fuselage construction, but even that isn't extreme since

it

amounts to the weight of about a 2.5' x 4' piece of .063 6061 T6 and three
or four hundred RV1613/9 rivets....nothing else!

Cheers,
Wayne




On 1/18/2006 10:35 AM, beep@sympatico.ca wrote to rebel-builders:

->
-> Hi John !
->
-> Thanks for the kind words - and the numbers ! Now we have a
-> definite number - 35 lb. just for component difference....
-> should make the choice clear for anyone wanting to fit ELSA !
->
-> The McKenzie STOL kit, cuffs & fences only added about 13 lb.
-> total - it does help low-speed performance. The current Fife
-> wing tips have a setup for lightweight landing lights - IF you
-> want them for improved visibility. Otherwise, just go with
-> the nav/strobe combos - I saw the GS-air LED units at Sebring -
-> very impressive, and only $327 USD for complete package !
-> https://ssl.perfora.net/gs-
air.com/sess/utn;jsessionid=1543b2bd350d65c/shopdata/index.shopscript
-> or:
-> http://www.gs-air.com
->
-> Let us know which mods you are considering skipping - depending
-> on engine choice, most are essential ! Definitely need the FUS-30
-> doubler, and I would recommend Wayne's firewall plates, even if you
-> choose a 912 - the Rebel needs that extra weight up front ! Also,
-> that 1 1/2" or 2" channel along the full width of the bottom of
-> the instrument panel will strengthen the whole structure, and help
-> prevent throttle variations/fluctuation when taxiing on rough ground.
->
-> .....bobp
->
-> -------------------------------orig.-------------------------
-> On Tuesday 17 January 2006 11:11 pm, John Kramer wrote:
-> > Ron,
-> >
-> > Before I learned enough: to find this list, and then to ask the right
-> > questions, and then listen to the right people; someone at MAM
-> > convinced me the spring gear would be better in crosswind landings,
-> > that it was stronger, and offered no weight, or other penalty (I'm
-> > trying to build for 1320 gross and maximum utility) MAM shipped out
-> > the spring gear and I weighed all components (legs, wheels, brakes,
-> > &c.) against all components for the bungee gear that came with my
-> > kit. My scales showed a 35 pound difference, in just component
-> > weight. When you add in the required reinforcements the weight is
-> > more than significant.
-> >
-> > The fancier wheels and brakes certainly were nicer and the spring
-> > gear prettier to my eye, each piece was considerably heavier than the
-> > original equivalents. Once I get her standing I'm planning on
-> > Wayne's spring mod, I've already ordered Fife tips, but doubt my
-> > weight limitations will allow for Angus' cuff's. If I was building
-> > to full gross with a fat motor I'd have them for sure. I'm very
-> > carefully picking through the Ontario Mods as I can't afford them
-> > all, for a light plane some seem more important than others.
-> >
-> > I was fortunate that Robin agreed to accept the return. I get the
-> > feeling that doesn't often happen.
-> >
-> > I have learned to first search the archive, then ask, then listen to
-> > Wayne, Bob, Walt and the others who give so freely of their
-> > considerable knowledge. Without this resource I'm certain far fewer
-> > Rebels would ever fly.
-> >
-> > John...369R
-> >
-> > At 06:23 PM 01/17/06, you wrote:
-> > >How much heavier is the Rebel spring gear, compared to the bungee?
-> > >
-> > >Ron
-> > >
-> > >





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[Jeff McMurrer]

Ben,

The spring gear for the Elite is the same for the Rebel upgrade.

Jeff


----- Original Message -----
From: bransom@dcsol.com
Date: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 3:57 pm
Subject: Re: Rebel spring gear weight

Does the Elite use the same spring gear legs as the Rebel? Or
anyone know if
any other kits use these things? They are roughly Grove look
alike.
Originally I thought I'd find someone wanting to buy these
"upgraded" gear,
but obviously that isn't likely.
-Ben/ 496R



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[Keith Leitch]

I'm trying to follow this thread but been having some
computer glitches. So, you are saying that the end
result, if two planes are built identical-one with
spring gear and one with the bungee gear, the spring
gear plane will be approx. 35 pounds heavier. Am I
reading this correctly?

I bought the spring gear when I ordered my kit on the
advice of MAM.:(

I am no where near that stage of completion though.
Keith
R661

--- Bob Patterson <beep@sympatico.ca> wrote:

Hi John !

Thanks for the kind words - and the numbers !
Now we have a
definite number - 35 lb. just for component
difference....
should make the choice clear for anyone wanting to
fit ELSA !

The McKenzie STOL kit, cuffs & fences only
added about 13 lb.
total - it does help low-speed performance. The
current Fife
wing tips have a setup for lightweight landing
lights - IF you
want them for improved visibility. Otherwise, just
go with
the nav/strobe combos - I saw the GS-air LED units
at Sebring -
very impressive, and only $327 USD for complete
package !

https://ssl.perfora.net/gs-air.com/sess ... shopscript

or:
http://www.gs-air.com

Let us know which mods you are considering
skipping - depending
on engine choice, most are essential ! Definitely
need the FUS-30
doubler, and I would recommend Wayne's firewall
plates, even if you
choose a 912 - the Rebel needs that extra weight up
front ! Also,
that 1 1/2" or 2" channel along the full width of
the bottom of
the instrument panel will strengthen the whole
structure, and help
prevent throttle variations/fluctuation when taxiing
on rough ground.

.....bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------

On Tuesday 17 January 2006 11:11 pm, John Kramer
wrote:

Ron,

Before I learned enough: to find this list, and

then to ask the right

questions, and then listen to the right people;

someone at MAM

convinced me the spring gear would be better in

crosswind landings,

that it was stronger, and offered no weight, or

other penalty (I'm

trying to build for 1320 gross and maximum

utility) MAM shipped out

the spring gear and I weighed all components

(legs, wheels, brakes,

&c.) against all components for the bungee gear

that came with my

kit. My scales showed a 35 pound difference, in

just component

weight. When you add in the required

reinforcements the weight is

more than significant.

The fancier wheels and brakes certainly were nicer

and the spring

gear prettier to my eye, each piece was

considerably heavier than the

original equivalents. Once I get her standing I'm

planning on

Wayne's spring mod, I've already ordered Fife

tips, but doubt my

weight limitations will allow for Angus' cuff's.

If I was building

to full gross with a fat motor I'd have them for

sure. I'm very

carefully picking through the Ontario Mods as I

can't afford them

all, for a light plane some seem more important

than others.

I was fortunate that Robin agreed to accept the

return. I get the

feeling that doesn't often happen.

I have learned to first search the archive, then

ask, then listen to

Wayne, Bob, Walt and the others who give so freely

of their

considerable knowledge. Without this resource I'm

certain far fewer

Rebels would ever fly.

John...369R

At 06:23 PM 01/17/06, you wrote:

How much heavier is the Rebel spring gear,

compared to the bungee?

Ron

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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

Figured so..saves me some time in the morning...THANK for speaking up Jeff.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff McMurrer" <westcoastkitplanes@shaw.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 9:29 PM
Subject: Re: Rebel spring gear weight

Ben,

The spring gear for the Elite is the same for the Rebel upgrade.

Jeff


----- Original Message -----
From: bransom@dcsol.com
Date: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 3:57 pm
Subject: Re: Rebel spring gear weight

Does the Elite use the same spring gear legs as the Rebel? Or
anyone know if
any other kits use these things? They are roughly Grove look
alike.
Originally I thought I'd find someone wanting to buy these
"upgraded" gear,
but obviously that isn't likely.
-Ben/ 496R



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[bransom]

I recall estimates that the spring gear does add 5-10mph cruise -- probably
depends on how well the spring gear, etc is fared for the comparison point.
Gotta say I like the looks of the spring gear too. But, I've always hoped I
could finish less than 950 lbs (and 150hp).
-Ben

I'm trying to follow this thread but been having some
computer glitches. So, you are saying that the end
result, if two planes are built identical-one with
spring gear and one with the bungee gear, the spring
gear plane will be approx. 35 pounds heavier. Am I
reading this correctly?

I bought the spring gear when I ordered my kit on the
advice of MAM.:(

I am no where near that stage of completion though.
Keith
R661

--- Bob Patterson <beep@sympatico.ca> wrote:

Hi John !

Thanks for the kind words - and the numbers !
Now we have a
definite number - 35 lb. just for component
difference....
should make the choice clear for anyone wanting to
fit ELSA !

The McKenzie STOL kit, cuffs & fences only
added about 13 lb.
total - it does help low-speed performance. The
current Fife
wing tips have a setup for lightweight landing
lights - IF you
want them for improved visibility. Otherwise, just
go with
the nav/strobe combos - I saw the GS-air LED units
at Sebring -
very impressive, and only $327 USD for complete
package !

https://ssl.perfora.net/gs-

air.com/sess/utn;jsessionid=1543b2bd350d65c/shopdata/index.shopscript

or:
http://www.gs-air.com

Let us know which mods you are considering
skipping - depending
on engine choice, most are essential ! Definitely
need the FUS-30
doubler, and I would recommend Wayne's firewall
plates, even if you
choose a 912 - the Rebel needs that extra weight up
front ! Also,
that 1 1/2" or 2" channel along the full width of
the bottom of
the instrument panel will strengthen the whole
structure, and help
prevent throttle variations/fluctuation when taxiing
on rough ground.

.....bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------

On Tuesday 17 January 2006 11:11 pm, John Kramer
wrote:

Ron,

Before I learned enough: to find this list, and

then to ask the right

questions, and then listen to the right people;

someone at MAM

convinced me the spring gear would be better in

crosswind landings,

that it was stronger, and offered no weight, or

other penalty (I'm

trying to build for 1320 gross and maximum

utility) MAM shipped out

the spring gear and I weighed all components

(legs, wheels, brakes,

&c.) against all components for the bungee gear

that came with my

kit. My scales showed a 35 pound difference, in

just component

weight. When you add in the required

reinforcements the weight is

more than significant.

The fancier wheels and brakes certainly were nicer

and the spring

gear prettier to my eye, each piece was

considerably heavier than the

original equivalents. Once I get her standing I'm

planning on

Wayne's spring mod, I've already ordered Fife

tips, but doubt my

weight limitations will allow for Angus' cuff's.

If I was building

to full gross with a fat motor I'd have them for

sure. I'm very

carefully picking through the Ontario Mods as I

can't afford them

all, for a light plane some seem more important

than others.

I was fortunate that Robin agreed to accept the

return. I get the

feeling that doesn't often happen.

I have learned to first search the archive, then

ask, then listen to

Wayne, Bob, Walt and the others who give so freely

of their

considerable knowledge. Without this resource I'm

certain far fewer

Rebels would ever fly.

John...369R

At 06:23 PM 01/17/06, you wrote:

compared to the bungee?

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[Bob Patterson]

Hi John !

I totally agree with your approach - as I understand the
US regs at the moment, building as EXPERIMENTAL, at the LSA
weight, gives you all the advantages of BOTH worlds - and,
as an EXPERIMENTAL, if you sell it to someone who wants to
install an O-320, they can just do that ! Can't fly with
an LSA licence, but gross can go up to 1650, no problem...

You can definitely reduce the size of the fuel tanks -
the stock Rebel has about 50 % more fuel than a C-172 !!
We flew our Rebel all over North America with 10 1/2 gal tank
capacity (and an 'auxiliary' tank in the baggage area on
trips .... ;-) ).

Most folks with 912s reduce to 2 bays per side, instead of 3,
and several have 1 bay on the left, and 2 on the right. At about
8 gallons/bay, this still gives LOTS of fuel, at about 4 - 5 gph !
And you can always use a red gas can in the baggage area for
an extra hour or so of range .... the 912 fuel pump can do this
with no problem !

Reducing the tank size saves weight, because you have a
smaller area of the thicker tank skin, as well as less fuel.
It makes no sense at all to carry 300 lb of fuel around that
you will never burn - 'way beyond bladder range !! And you
will get condensation, and fuel flow problems if you try to
run around with only a few gallons in the bottom of the
big tanks !!!!!

While the other engines are tempting, the 912 is a VERY
well proven, reliable, and low maintenance engine - there are
several now flying with over 4,000 hours without overhaul !
Ours took over 600 hours to break in !

The firewall plates help with strength and C of G -
if you are going Rotax, ask for a longer mount than the old MAM
standard - a good 4" farther forward would be really nice !
Also, you definitely can improve on the old radiator & oil cooler
setup - mount them to the engine mount, NOT the cowling !!
With the 912-ULS, go with the Rotax intake & exhaust - otherwise,
you lose over 5 hp ! (Another reason for an improved engine mount -
the old one might not accomodate the exhaust system ...)

Are the Matco wheels that you have SILVER coloured ???
If so, you are fine ! If they are GOLD, you are still ok with
a 912, but you will have VERY little braking -- not even enough
to hold the Rebel for full-power run-ups ! If you are going
with the die spring gear, you really shouls add Gord Mohr's
gear kit, with bushing inserts in the tops of the gear legs, as it
moves all the time with die springs. The gear is NOT supposed
to move with the bungees, except to prevent structural damage !
(NOT like Cubs ....) A good reason to use the fat DICO or
Carlyle tires ! :-)


......bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Wednesday 18 January 2006 09:18 pm, John Kramer wrote:

Thanks Bob,

13 lbs definitely puts the cuffs back on the consideration list. I'm
still studying and haven't made several firm decisions; that's why my
wings are still in clecos and I'm starting the fuselage until I'm
fully comfortable with final decisions. It has made me the cleco
king of Kansas City.

Your comments on Wayne's firewall mod are well taken, they are one's
I'd considered dropping because I'll be using a small engine
(probably a Rotax, though there's a light diesel that is tempting and
the Rotec is so pretty).

John...


At 01:35 PM 01/18/06, you wrote:

Hi John !

Thanks for the kind words - and the numbers ! Now we have a
definite number - 35 lb. just for component difference....
should make the choice clear for anyone wanting to fit ELSA !

The McKenzie STOL kit, cuffs & fences only added about 13 lb.
total - it does help low-speed performance. The current Fife
wing tips have a setup for lightweight landing lights - IF you
want them for improved visibility. Otherwise, just go with
the nav/strobe combos - I saw the GS-air LED units at Sebring -
very impressive, and only $327 USD for complete package !

https://ssl.perfora.net/gs-air.com/sess ... shopscript

or:
http://www.gs-air.com

Let us know which mods you are considering skipping - depending
on engine choice, most are essential ! Definitely need the FUS-30
doubler, and I would recommend Wayne's firewall plates, even if you
choose a 912 - the Rebel needs that extra weight up front ! Also,
that 1 1/2" or 2" channel along the full width of the bottom of
the instrument panel will strengthen the whole structure, and help
prevent throttle variations/fluctuation when taxiing on rough ground.

.....bobp

================== SNIP ! ==================================



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[John Kramer]

Thanks Bob,

More excellent information I can use. I do have the gold wheels and
the Matco lady at Oshkosh has told me there are ways to improve the
brakes; though I've considered new wheels and brakes as the previous
kit owner let corrosion steal the pretty. The Rotax has jumped way
up in my considerations as the Jabiru owners at my local EAA chapter
have had to open theirs up and fix the insides too often, on low time
engines, to suit me. But just like with women, beautiful still turns
my head so I keep drooling on the Rotec pictures; they ran me off at
Oshkosh -- said I was going to make it all rusty.

John...


At 10:16 PM 01/18/06, you wrote:

Hi John !

I totally agree with your approach - as I understand the
US regs at the moment, building as EXPERIMENTAL, at the LSA
weight, gives you all the advantages of BOTH worlds - and,
as an EXPERIMENTAL, if you sell it to someone who wants to
install an O-320, they can just do that ! Can't fly with
an LSA licence, but gross can go up to 1650, no problem...

You can definitely reduce the size of the fuel tanks -
the stock Rebel has about 50 % more fuel than a C-172 !!
We flew our Rebel all over North America with 10 1/2 gal tank
capacity (and an 'auxiliary' tank in the baggage area on
trips .... ;-) ).

Most folks with 912s reduce to 2 bays per side, instead of 3,
and several have 1 bay on the left, and 2 on the right. At about
8 gallons/bay, this still gives LOTS of fuel, at about 4 - 5 gph !
And you can always use a red gas can in the baggage area for
an extra hour or so of range .... the 912 fuel pump can do this
with no problem !

Reducing the tank size saves weight, because you have a
smaller area of the thicker tank skin, as well as less fuel.
It makes no sense at all to carry 300 lb of fuel around that
you will never burn - 'way beyond bladder range !! And you
will get condensation, and fuel flow problems if you try to
run around with only a few gallons in the bottom of the
big tanks !!!!!

While the other engines are tempting, the 912 is a VERY
well proven, reliable, and low maintenance engine - there are
several now flying with over 4,000 hours without overhaul !
Ours took over 600 hours to break in !

The firewall plates help with strength and C of G -
if you are going Rotax, ask for a longer mount than the old MAM
standard - a good 4" farther forward would be really nice !
Also, you definitely can improve on the old radiator & oil cooler
setup - mount them to the engine mount, NOT the cowling !!
With the 912-ULS, go with the Rotax intake & exhaust - otherwise,
you lose over 5 hp ! (Another reason for an improved engine mount -
the old one might not accomodate the exhaust system ...)

Are the Matco wheels that you have SILVER coloured ???
If so, you are fine ! If they are GOLD, you are still ok with
a 912, but you will have VERY little braking -- not even enough
to hold the Rebel for full-power run-ups ! If you are going
with the die spring gear, you really shouls add Gord Mohr's
gear kit, with bushing inserts in the tops of the gear legs, as it
moves all the time with die springs. The gear is NOT supposed
to move with the bungees, except to prevent structural damage !
(NOT like Cubs ....) A good reason to use the fat DICO or
Carlyle tires ! :-)


......bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Wednesday 18 January 2006 09:18 pm, John Kramer wrote:

Thanks Bob,

13 lbs definitely puts the cuffs back on the consideration list. I'm
still studying and haven't made several firm decisions; that's why my
wings are still in clecos and I'm starting the fuselage until I'm
fully comfortable with final decisions. It has made me the cleco
king of Kansas City.

Your comments on Wayne's firewall mod are well taken, they are one's
I'd considered dropping because I'll be using a small engine
(probably a Rotax, though there's a light diesel that is tempting and
the Rotec is so pretty).

John...


At 01:35 PM 01/18/06, you wrote:

Hi John !

Thanks for the kind words - and the numbers ! Now we have a
definite number - 35 lb. just for component difference....
should make the choice clear for anyone wanting to fit ELSA !

The McKenzie STOL kit, cuffs & fences only added about 13 lb.
total - it does help low-speed performance. The current Fife
wing tips have a setup for lightweight landing lights - IF you
want them for improved visibility. Otherwise, just go with
the nav/strobe combos - I saw the GS-air LED units at Sebring -
very impressive, and only $327 USD for complete package !

https://ssl.perfora.net/gs-air.com/sess ... 43b2bd350d

65c/shopdata/index.shopscript

or:
http://www.gs-air.com

Let us know which mods you are considering skipping - depending
on engine choice, most are essential ! Definitely need the FUS-30
doubler, and I would recommend Wayne's firewall plates, even if you
choose a 912 - the Rebel needs that extra weight up front ! Also,
that 1 1/2" or 2" channel along the full width of the bottom of
the instrument panel will strengthen the whole structure, and help
prevent throttle variations/fluctuation when taxiing on rough ground.

.....bobp

================== SNIP ! ==================================



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[Bob Patterson]

Hi John !

Matco make a silver wheel that has much better braking - only
a bit heavier..... or maybe the silver wheel brakes could be
fitted....

The Rotec engines do look good, especially on a Renegade,
BUT - they are a LOT heavier -- in the 220 - 240 lb range,
vs about 158 for a complete installed 912, with oil & coolant...
I'm with you on the Jabirus - still old air-cooled technology,
and they are also heavier than the 912, for less power...

.....bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Thursday 19 January 2006 12:40 pm, John Kramer wrote:

Thanks Bob,

More excellent information I can use. I do have the gold wheels and
the Matco lady at Oshkosh has told me there are ways to improve the
brakes; though I've considered new wheels and brakes as the previous
kit owner let corrosion steal the pretty. The Rotax has jumped way
up in my considerations as the Jabiru owners at my local EAA chapter
have had to open theirs up and fix the insides too often, on low time
engines, to suit me. But just like with women, beautiful still turns
my head so I keep drooling on the Rotec pictures; they ran me off at
Oshkosh -- said I was going to make it all rusty.

John...


At 10:16 PM 01/18/06, you wrote:

Hi John !

I totally agree with your approach - as I understand the
US regs at the moment, building as EXPERIMENTAL, at the LSA
weight, gives you all the advantages of BOTH worlds - and,
as an EXPERIMENTAL, if you sell it to someone who wants to
install an O-320, they can just do that ! Can't fly with
an LSA licence, but gross can go up to 1650, no problem...

You can definitely reduce the size of the fuel tanks -
the stock Rebel has about 50 % more fuel than a C-172 !!
We flew our Rebel all over North America with 10 1/2 gal tank
capacity (and an 'auxiliary' tank in the baggage area on
trips .... ;-) ).

Most folks with 912s reduce to 2 bays per side, instead of 3,
and several have 1 bay on the left, and 2 on the right. At about
8 gallons/bay, this still gives LOTS of fuel, at about 4 - 5 gph !
And you can always use a red gas can in the baggage area for
an extra hour or so of range .... the 912 fuel pump can do this
with no problem !

Reducing the tank size saves weight, because you have a
smaller area of the thicker tank skin, as well as less fuel.
It makes no sense at all to carry 300 lb of fuel around that
you will never burn - 'way beyond bladder range !! And you
will get condensation, and fuel flow problems if you try to
run around with only a few gallons in the bottom of the
big tanks !!!!!

While the other engines are tempting, the 912 is a VERY
well proven, reliable, and low maintenance engine - there are
several now flying with over 4,000 hours without overhaul !
Ours took over 600 hours to break in !

The firewall plates help with strength and C of G -
if you are going Rotax, ask for a longer mount than the old MAM
standard - a good 4" farther forward would be really nice !
Also, you definitely can improve on the old radiator & oil cooler
setup - mount them to the engine mount, NOT the cowling !!
With the 912-ULS, go with the Rotax intake & exhaust - otherwise,
you lose over 5 hp ! (Another reason for an improved engine mount -
the old one might not accomodate the exhaust system ...)

Are the Matco wheels that you have SILVER coloured ???
If so, you are fine ! If they are GOLD, you are still ok with
a 912, but you will have VERY little braking -- not even enough
to hold the Rebel for full-power run-ups ! If you are going
with the die spring gear, you really shouls add Gord Mohr's
gear kit, with bushing inserts in the tops of the gear legs, as it
moves all the time with die springs. The gear is NOT supposed
to move with the bungees, except to prevent structural damage !
(NOT like Cubs ....) A good reason to use the fat DICO or
Carlyle tires ! :-)


......bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Wednesday 18 January 2006 09:18 pm, John Kramer wrote:

Thanks Bob,

13 lbs definitely puts the cuffs back on the consideration list. I'm
still studying and haven't made several firm decisions; that's why my
wings are still in clecos and I'm starting the fuselage until I'm
fully comfortable with final decisions. It has made me the cleco
king of Kansas City.

Your comments on Wayne's firewall mod are well taken, they are one's
I'd considered dropping because I'll be using a small engine
(probably a Rotax, though there's a light diesel that is tempting and
the Rotec is so pretty).

John...


At 01:35 PM 01/18/06, you wrote:
https://ssl.perfora.net/gs-air.com/sess ... 43b2bd350d

65c/shopdata/index.shopscript

================== SNIP ! ==================================



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-----------------------------------------------------------------

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fly too low or too slow and the ground will rise up and smite thee.





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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

Nothing wrong with them gold Matco's John...no matter what folks say! I
still have them on my airplane, albiet with reinforcing plates on each side
of the hub and Garry still has them on FOKM with penny washers for load
spread at each bolt. Neither set has been a service issue and remember they
are roller bearings...not taper bearings so only snug the nut and no
more...otherwise you will take the sides out of the bearing races in a few
hours. My second set of bearings is now past 10 years..first set was 2
hours.

As for the brakes....just how much brake do you want in a taildragger
anyhow???? I can hold place on grass at 2100 RPM (150HP Lyco) and
considering 1700/1800 is all you should be doing for a runup what more do
you need. With the AULA I had the Rotax in I could hold the brakes..give her
full power...lift the tail to flying position...release brakes and drop the
tail and fly less than 100 feet later solo!!

Cheers,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Kramer" <369R@kramers.org>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2006 12:40 PM
Subject: Re: Rebel spring gear weight

Thanks Bob,

More excellent information I can use. I do have the gold wheels and
the Matco lady at Oshkosh has told me there are ways to improve the
brakes; though I've considered new wheels and brakes as the previous
kit owner let corrosion steal the pretty. The Rotax has jumped way
up in my considerations as the Jabiru owners at my local EAA chapter
have had to open theirs up and fix the insides too often, on low time
engines, to suit me. But just like with women, beautiful still turns
my head so I keep drooling on the Rotec pictures; they ran me off at
Oshkosh -- said I was going to make it all rusty.

John...


At 10:16 PM 01/18/06, you wrote:

Hi John !

I totally agree with your approach - as I understand the
US regs at the moment, building as EXPERIMENTAL, at the LSA
weight, gives you all the advantages of BOTH worlds - and,
as an EXPERIMENTAL, if you sell it to someone who wants to
install an O-320, they can just do that ! Can't fly with
an LSA licence, but gross can go up to 1650, no problem...

You can definitely reduce the size of the fuel tanks -
the stock Rebel has about 50 % more fuel than a C-172 !!
We flew our Rebel all over North America with 10 1/2 gal tank
capacity (and an 'auxiliary' tank in the baggage area on
trips .... ;-) ).

Most folks with 912s reduce to 2 bays per side, instead of 3,
and several have 1 bay on the left, and 2 on the right. At about
8 gallons/bay, this still gives LOTS of fuel, at about 4 - 5 gph !
And you can always use a red gas can in the baggage area for
an extra hour or so of range .... the 912 fuel pump can do this
with no problem !

Reducing the tank size saves weight, because you have a
smaller area of the thicker tank skin, as well as less fuel.
It makes no sense at all to carry 300 lb of fuel around that
you will never burn - 'way beyond bladder range !! And you
will get condensation, and fuel flow problems if you try to
run around with only a few gallons in the bottom of the
big tanks !!!!!

While the other engines are tempting, the 912 is a VERY
well proven, reliable, and low maintenance engine - there are
several now flying with over 4,000 hours without overhaul !
Ours took over 600 hours to break in !

The firewall plates help with strength and C of G -
if you are going Rotax, ask for a longer mount than the old MAM
standard - a good 4" farther forward would be really nice !
Also, you definitely can improve on the old radiator & oil cooler
setup - mount them to the engine mount, NOT the cowling !!
With the 912-ULS, go with the Rotax intake & exhaust - otherwise,
you lose over 5 hp ! (Another reason for an improved engine mount -
the old one might not accomodate the exhaust system ...)

Are the Matco wheels that you have SILVER coloured ???
If so, you are fine ! If they are GOLD, you are still ok with
a 912, but you will have VERY little braking -- not even enough
to hold the Rebel for full-power run-ups ! If you are going
with the die spring gear, you really shouls add Gord Mohr's
gear kit, with bushing inserts in the tops of the gear legs, as it
moves all the time with die springs. The gear is NOT supposed
to move with the bungees, except to prevent structural damage !
(NOT like Cubs ....) A good reason to use the fat DICO or
Carlyle tires ! :-)


......bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Wednesday 18 January 2006 09:18 pm, John Kramer wrote:

Thanks Bob,

13 lbs definitely puts the cuffs back on the consideration list. I'm
still studying and haven't made several firm decisions; that's why my
wings are still in clecos and I'm starting the fuselage until I'm
fully comfortable with final decisions. It has made me the cleco
king of Kansas City.

Your comments on Wayne's firewall mod are well taken, they are one's
I'd considered dropping because I'll be using a small engine
(probably a Rotax, though there's a light diesel that is tempting and
the Rotec is so pretty).

John...


At 01:35 PM 01/18/06, you wrote:
https://ssl.perfora.net/gs-air.com/sess ... 43b2bd350d

65c/shopdata/index.shopscript

================== SNIP ! ==================================



-----------------------------------------------------------------
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List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fly too low or too slow and the ground will rise up and smite thee.





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[John Kramer]

Thanks Wayne,

You as always make great good sense.

Mine won't clean-up that badly and it doesn't seem there is much lighter.

John...



At 05:26 PM 01/19/06, you wrote:

Nothing wrong with them gold Matco's John...no matter what folks say! I
still have them on my airplane, albiet with reinforcing plates on each side
of the hub and Garry still has them on FOKM with penny washers for load
spread at each bolt. Neither set has been a service issue and remember they
are roller bearings...not taper bearings so only snug the nut and no
more...otherwise you will take the sides out of the bearing races in a few
hours. My second set of bearings is now past 10 years..first set was 2
hours.

As for the brakes....just how much brake do you want in a taildragger
anyhow???? I can hold place on grass at 2100 RPM (150HP Lyco) and
considering 1700/1800 is all you should be doing for a runup what more do
you need. With the AULA I had the Rotax in I could hold the brakes..give her
full power...lift the tail to flying position...release brakes and drop the
tail and fly less than 100 feet later solo!!

Cheers,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Kramer" <369R@kramers.org>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2006 12:40 PM
Subject: Re: Rebel spring gear weight

Thanks Bob,

More excellent information I can use. I do have the gold wheels and
the Matco lady at Oshkosh has told me there are ways to improve the
brakes; though I've considered new wheels and brakes as the previous
kit owner let corrosion steal the pretty. The Rotax has jumped way
up in my considerations as the Jabiru owners at my local EAA chapter
have had to open theirs up and fix the insides too often, on low time
engines, to suit me. But just like with women, beautiful still turns
my head so I keep drooling on the Rotec pictures; they ran me off at
Oshkosh -- said I was going to make it all rusty.

John...


At 10:16 PM 01/18/06, you wrote:

Hi John !

I totally agree with your approach - as I understand the
US regs at the moment, building as EXPERIMENTAL, at the LSA
weight, gives you all the advantages of BOTH worlds - and,
as an EXPERIMENTAL, if you sell it to someone who wants to
install an O-320, they can just do that ! Can't fly with
an LSA licence, but gross can go up to 1650, no problem...

You can definitely reduce the size of the fuel tanks -
the stock Rebel has about 50 % more fuel than a C-172 !!
We flew our Rebel all over North America with 10 1/2 gal tank
capacity (and an 'auxiliary' tank in the baggage area on
trips .... ;-) ).

Most folks with 912s reduce to 2 bays per side, instead of 3,
and several have 1 bay on the left, and 2 on the right. At about
8 gallons/bay, this still gives LOTS of fuel, at about 4 - 5 gph !
And you can always use a red gas can in the baggage area for
an extra hour or so of range .... the 912 fuel pump can do this
with no problem !

Reducing the tank size saves weight, because you have a
smaller area of the thicker tank skin, as well as less fuel.
It makes no sense at all to carry 300 lb of fuel around that
you will never burn - 'way beyond bladder range !! And you
will get condensation, and fuel flow problems if you try to
run around with only a few gallons in the bottom of the
big tanks !!!!!

While the other engines are tempting, the 912 is a VERY
well proven, reliable, and low maintenance engine - there are
several now flying with over 4,000 hours without overhaul !
Ours took over 600 hours to break in !

The firewall plates help with strength and C of G -
if you are going Rotax, ask for a longer mount than the old MAM
standard - a good 4" farther forward would be really nice !
Also, you definitely can improve on the old radiator & oil cooler
setup - mount them to the engine mount, NOT the cowling !!
With the 912-ULS, go with the Rotax intake & exhaust - otherwise,
you lose over 5 hp ! (Another reason for an improved engine mount -
the old one might not accomodate the exhaust system ...)

Are the Matco wheels that you have SILVER coloured ???
If so, you are fine ! If they are GOLD, you are still ok with
a 912, but you will have VERY little braking -- not even enough
to hold the Rebel for full-power run-ups ! If you are going
with the die spring gear, you really shouls add Gord Mohr's
gear kit, with bushing inserts in the tops of the gear legs, as it
moves all the time with die springs. The gear is NOT supposed
to move with the bungees, except to prevent structural damage !
(NOT like Cubs ....) A good reason to use the fat DICO or
Carlyle tires ! :-)


......bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Wednesday 18 January 2006 09:18 pm, John Kramer wrote: 65c/shopdata/index.shopscript ================== SNIP ! ==================================



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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

They are as light as it gets John. I think I may just weigh up a set of them
vs the JDM's tomorrow... since we're already weighing everything it seems!
LOL

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Kramer" <369R@kramers.org>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2006 7:29 PM
Subject: Re: Rebel spring gear weight

Thanks Wayne,

You as always make great good sense.

Mine won't clean-up that badly and it doesn't seem there is much lighter.

John...



At 05:26 PM 01/19/06, you wrote:

Nothing wrong with them gold Matco's John...no matter what folks say! I
still have them on my airplane, albiet with reinforcing plates on each

side

of the hub and Garry still has them on FOKM with penny washers for load
spread at each bolt. Neither set has been a service issue and remember

they

are roller bearings...not taper bearings so only snug the nut and no
more...otherwise you will take the sides out of the bearing races in a

few

hours. My second set of bearings is now past 10 years..first set was 2
hours.

As for the brakes....just how much brake do you want in a taildragger
anyhow???? I can hold place on grass at 2100 RPM (150HP Lyco) and
considering 1700/1800 is all you should be doing for a runup what more do
you need. With the AULA I had the Rotax in I could hold the brakes..give

her

full power...lift the tail to flying position...release brakes and drop

the

tail and fly less than 100 feet later solo!!

Cheers,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Kramer" <369R@kramers.org>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2006 12:40 PM
Subject: Re: Rebel spring gear weight

Thanks Bob,

More excellent information I can use. I do have the gold wheels and
the Matco lady at Oshkosh has told me there are ways to improve the
brakes; though I've considered new wheels and brakes as the previous
kit owner let corrosion steal the pretty. The Rotax has jumped way
up in my considerations as the Jabiru owners at my local EAA chapter
have had to open theirs up and fix the insides too often, on low time
engines, to suit me. But just like with women, beautiful still turns
my head so I keep drooling on the Rotec pictures; they ran me off at
Oshkosh -- said I was going to make it all rusty.

John...


At 10:16 PM 01/18/06, you wrote:

I'm

my

one's

and

a

lb.

depending

FUS-30

you

Also,

help

ground.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fly too low or too slow and the ground will rise up and smite thee.





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[wrightdg]

I'm not entirely sure more braking is wise. FOKM has the old Matco gold
colored wheels with the small brakes and I can lift the tail up with
hard braking on pavement. How much more would one really want? Why?

On Thu, 2006-19-01 at 14:44 -0500, Bob Patterson wrote:

Hi John !

Matco make a silver wheel that has much better braking - only
a bit heavier..... or maybe the silver wheel brakes could be
fitted....

The Rotec engines do look good, especially on a Renegade,
BUT - they are a LOT heavier -- in the 220 - 240 lb range,
vs about 158 for a complete installed 912, with oil & coolant...
I'm with you on the Jabirus - still old air-cooled technology,
and they are also heavier than the 912, for less power...

.....bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Thursday 19 January 2006 12:40 pm, John Kramer wrote:

Thanks Bob,

More excellent information I can use. I do have the gold wheels and
the Matco lady at Oshkosh has told me there are ways to improve the
brakes; though I've considered new wheels and brakes as the previous
kit owner let corrosion steal the pretty. The Rotax has jumped way
up in my considerations as the Jabiru owners at my local EAA chapter
have had to open theirs up and fix the insides too often, on low time
engines, to suit me. But just like with women, beautiful still turns
my head so I keep drooling on the Rotec pictures; they ran me off at
Oshkosh -- said I was going to make it all rusty.

John...


At 10:16 PM 01/18/06, you wrote:

Hi John !

I totally agree with your approach - as I understand the
US regs at the moment, building as EXPERIMENTAL, at the LSA
weight, gives you all the advantages of BOTH worlds - and,
as an EXPERIMENTAL, if you sell it to someone who wants to
install an O-320, they can just do that ! Can't fly with
an LSA licence, but gross can go up to 1650, no problem...

You can definitely reduce the size of the fuel tanks -
the stock Rebel has about 50 % more fuel than a C-172 !!
We flew our Rebel all over North America with 10 1/2 gal tank
capacity (and an 'auxiliary' tank in the baggage area on
trips .... ;-) ).

Most folks with 912s reduce to 2 bays per side, instead of 3,
and several have 1 bay on the left, and 2 on the right. At about
8 gallons/bay, this still gives LOTS of fuel, at about 4 - 5 gph !
And you can always use a red gas can in the baggage area for
an extra hour or so of range .... the 912 fuel pump can do this
with no problem !

Reducing the tank size saves weight, because you have a
smaller area of the thicker tank skin, as well as less fuel.
It makes no sense at all to carry 300 lb of fuel around that
you will never burn - 'way beyond bladder range !! And you
will get condensation, and fuel flow problems if you try to
run around with only a few gallons in the bottom of the
big tanks !!!!!

While the other engines are tempting, the 912 is a VERY
well proven, reliable, and low maintenance engine - there are
several now flying with over 4,000 hours without overhaul !
Ours took over 600 hours to break in !

The firewall plates help with strength and C of G -
if you are going Rotax, ask for a longer mount than the old MAM
standard - a good 4" farther forward would be really nice !
Also, you definitely can improve on the old radiator & oil cooler
setup - mount them to the engine mount, NOT the cowling !!
With the 912-ULS, go with the Rotax intake & exhaust - otherwise,
you lose over 5 hp ! (Another reason for an improved engine mount -
the old one might not accomodate the exhaust system ...)

Are the Matco wheels that you have SILVER coloured ???
If so, you are fine ! If they are GOLD, you are still ok with
a 912, but you will have VERY little braking -- not even enough
to hold the Rebel for full-power run-ups ! If you are going
with the die spring gear, you really shouls add Gord Mohr's
gear kit, with bushing inserts in the tops of the gear legs, as it
moves all the time with die springs. The gear is NOT supposed
to move with the bungees, except to prevent structural damage !
(NOT like Cubs ....) A good reason to use the fat DICO or
Carlyle tires ! :-)


......bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Wednesday 18 January 2006 09:18 pm, John Kramer wrote: 65c/shopdata/index.shopscript ================== SNIP ! ==================================



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