Rebel engine choices

[Ralph Baker]

Jabiru USA has a firewall forward kit for the Rebel with a "short" and "long" engine mount listed for the Jabiru 3300 6 cylinder. The FWF package seems quite complete. My estimate is that an installed Jabiru would weigh between 5 and 25 pounds more than a Rotax 912S. That would still work for Light Sport. I don't have a dog in this fight but it is worth consideration. The Jab doesn't have the 100LL considerations the Rotax does. Sensenich has its excellent composite ground adjustable propellor for the 3300 as well.
Ralph Baker



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[Mike Kimball]

What are the 100LL considerations you are referring to? I ran MOGAS and
100LL back and forth regularly in my Rotax 912 powered Renegade with no
trouble at all. It was an older 75HP model. Is there something about the
912S that raises fuel issues?

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Ralph
Baker
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 11:41 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Rebel engine choices

Jabiru USA has a firewall forward kit for the Rebel with a "short" and
"long" engine mount listed for the Jabiru 3300 6 cylinder. The FWF package
seems quite complete. My estimate is that an installed Jabiru would weigh
between 5 and 25 pounds more than a Rotax 912S. That would still work for
Light Sport. I don't have a dog in this fight but it is worth
consideration. The Jab doesn't have the 100LL considerations the Rotax
does. Sensenich has its excellent composite ground adjustable propellor for
the 3300 as well.
Ralph Baker



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[Ralph Baker]

Phil Lockwood explained this in Sebring. Rotax recommends specific oils for the 912 series. They are Mobil1 synthetic motorcycle oil and an SG rated motorcycle petroleum based oil. Pennzoil being the preferred brand. The lead in 100LL disperses into the oil. In the case of the petroleum oil it leads to sticking valves and lead deposits. (I have also heard that it is not good for the gear box.) In the case of the preferred Mobil1 the lead forms a paste deposit as it reacts with the oil. Rotax recommends cutting the oil change intervals in half if 100LL is used. I believe I remember that less than 30% of the time with 100LL is much less a problem with the petroleum oils. Before some one asks, the aviation oils can absorb the lead without issue and of course there is no gear box consideration.

Everyone recognizes that cross country travel seldom allows use of mogas and you have to use what is available. More frequent oil changes are one response. Another suggestion from Phil is the use of Alchlor TCP gasoline additive to assist in lead scavenging. The 100LL caution is an attempt to prevent problems in an expensive flight component.

Phil Lockwood also reconfirmed the suitability of 97 octane mogas in the 80 hp 912 and the requirement for 91 octane minimum for the 100 hp. Also, avoid fuel containing alchohol if possible although they have not seen problems directly traceable to alchohol in the later engines.

If you have an interest in Rotax engines I strongly suggest attending any seminar Phil Lockwood does. He is not only knowlegeable but a good speaker.
Ralph Baker



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[bransom]

Regarding a LSA Rebel, has anyone considered a Soob engine from
http://www.ramengines.com/
Are they any good?
-Ben



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[Bob Patterson]

Hi Ben !

Here we go again !! The EA-81 is a great little engine -
about 80 hp. in the car. These guys claim 140 hp - that makes
them about 75 % smarter than the Japanese automotive engineers !
If you believe that, you might also believe their claim that
the whole engine installation will weigh less than about 240++ lb...

Don't know the company, and not knocking them specifically,
but several people have tried to squeeze more out of EA-81's.
I think Frank is still flying happily with his <STOCK> EA-81 Rebel,
but total weights would make LSA a real stretch !

Generally, for just a few pounds more, you are better off
with an EJ-22 or EJ-25 - a lot more power --- but not LSA !

.....bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Friday 20 January 2006 12:30 pm, bransom@dcsol.com wrote:

Regarding a LSA Rebel, has anyone considered a Soob engine from
http://www.ramengines.com/
Are they any good?
-Ben

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[John Kramer]

Ben,

I don't know about ramengines, but one of our club members has been
trying to get an NSI installation completed -- for years on a
gorgeous Glastar. If it had an operating engine its ready to
fly. He finally got a second redrive that maybe should work a few
months ago, but, the computer for the fuel and ignition systems still
has a flawed 2.5 software setup and he still needs a 2.2 plus some
other incidental parts. He gave an excellent presentation on the
really extensive software controlling all aspects of engine operation
at our last club meeting. The software has really deep menu
structures with unlimited options, its just for the wrong engine. He
won't say how many thousands his cheap conversion has cost to date;
but by my calculations a brand new Lycoming at full retail would
probably have been cheaper; certainly less frustrating and still
worried IF all the parts will ever show up.

I don't want anything half so confusing going on when I'm about to
leap into the sky. I am not about to trust anything so critical to
M$ or even Open source derived software. Mags and Carbs seem way
better to me. Other simple ignition and fuel systems are appealing.
Too many opportunity points of failure in the system he described. I
think the builder enjoys the challenge more than any other concerns.

I quit looking at all the Soob's for weight and plumbing issues early
on; in my ongoing (until I have to have FWF) search for the perfect
match (if I was buying today it would be a 912s). But then there's a
light British diesel, that'll run on french fry grease, that's just
not quite ready for prime time --- yet.

John...369R


At 11:30 AM 01/20/06, you wrote:

Regarding a LSA Rebel, has anyone considered a Soob engine from
http://www.ramengines.com/
Are they any good?
-Ben



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[Bob Patterson]

Amazing, John !!

He's only the third person I've heard of who ACTUALLY <GOT> an
engine from NSI !! I didn't think there was anyone left who would
CONSIDER dealing with those guys !!!!!! They have TAKEN deposits
from people all over the world ! Of course, as you said,
it might be years before it runs .... if ever ... :-(

I can't think of anyone doing Sub conversions that I could
recommend today .... there were a few, but they've all gone !
Crossflow have about 25 Rebels flying with their engines, but
they only work with the old 2.0 liter Subs, and I'm not comfortable
with that idea. The whole advantage was to be able to get parts
at your local auto parts store, or a dealer, in a pinch - not
possible with the 2 liter engines - they were for Japan only !
Eggenfellner have a few sold for Rebels, but I don't know of
any flying, and I don't like their re-drive ...

The WAM diesel looks promissing, but a bit low on power for
the weight .... I can't imagine trying to hand-start a diesel
in a pinch, though. ;-) Fairly complex fuel setup there too.

The 912 still looks real good ! The search continues !!! :-)

......bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Friday 20 January 2006 05:14 pm, John Kramer wrote:

Ben,

I don't know about ramengines, but one of our club members has been
trying to get an NSI installation completed -- for years on a
gorgeous Glastar. If it had an operating engine its ready to
fly. He finally got a second redrive that maybe should work a few
months ago, but, the computer for the fuel and ignition systems still
has a flawed 2.5 software setup and he still needs a 2.2 plus some
other incidental parts. He gave an excellent presentation on the
really extensive software controlling all aspects of engine operation
at our last club meeting. The software has really deep menu
structures with unlimited options, its just for the wrong engine. He
won't say how many thousands his cheap conversion has cost to date;
but by my calculations a brand new Lycoming at full retail would
probably have been cheaper; certainly less frustrating and still
worried IF all the parts will ever show up.

I don't want anything half so confusing going on when I'm about to
leap into the sky. I am not about to trust anything so critical to
M$ or even Open source derived software. Mags and Carbs seem way
better to me. Other simple ignition and fuel systems are appealing.
Too many opportunity points of failure in the system he described. I
think the builder enjoys the challenge more than any other concerns.

I quit looking at all the Soob's for weight and plumbing issues early
on; in my ongoing (until I have to have FWF) search for the perfect
match (if I was buying today it would be a 912s). But then there's a
light British diesel, that'll run on french fry grease, that's just
not quite ready for prime time --- yet.

John...369R
--------------------------------------------------------------
At 11:30 AM 01/20/06, you wrote:

Regarding a LSA Rebel, has anyone considered a Soob engine from
http://www.ramengines.com/
Are they any good?
-Ben

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[bransom]

Bob, John, any others on this one...
Yep I'm not surprised at your answer. The ramengines numbers do sound too
good to be true. Still, I have heard of people running EA81s in Rebels and
there seems to be a lot of EA81 conversion experience out there in general.
I'll assume that if done well it could compare with a 912S, perhaps put out a
bit more power, a bit heavier, a lot cheaper, and a lot more tinkering to make
it go reliably.
-Ben

Hi Ben !

Here we go again !! The EA-81 is a great little engine -
about 80 hp. in the car. These guys claim 140 hp - that makes
them about 75 % smarter than the Japanese automotive engineers !
If you believe that, you might also believe their claim that
the whole engine installation will weigh less than about 240++ lb...

Don't know the company, and not knocking them specifically,
but several people have tried to squeeze more out of EA-81's.
I think Frank is still flying happily with his <STOCK> EA-81 Rebel,
but total weights would make LSA a real stretch !

Generally, for just a few pounds more, you are better off
with an EJ-22 or EJ-25 - a lot more power --- but not LSA !

.....bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Friday 20 January 2006 12:30 pm, bransom@dcsol.com wrote:

Regarding a LSA Rebel, has anyone considered a Soob engine from
http://www.ramengines.com/
Are they any good?
-Ben

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[Tom Anderson]

In addition to building a Rebel - #259R - I also have a kitfox with an NSI
EA81 turbo charged Subaru - it came off the dyno @ 156 horse power. Today
it is performing very nicely but it was a real struggle to get it so -
If you were considering an EA81 I wouldn't add turbo charging - the cooling
is critical and it adds quite a bit of weight. But - there is a guy in Ohio
that builds EA81 engines and does a very nice job of modifying it for
aircraft use. It is a normally aspirated version that will develop ~ 140
HP.
Here is a link to his web site.
http://www.ramengines.com/

The EA81's benefit is cost. However it is an old - out of production
-engine. The EJ is new and still in production - so you'd probably be
buying a '0' time engine vs a hi-time, rebuilt engine.

In '98 I flew my kitfox to Alaska - a great adventure - but learned a
lesson. All the folks that looked at the airplane & engine smiled, were
quite polite, even raved about how nice it was. But - walked away if I
needed help, tools, etc. After all I had an automobile engine on an
airport. Aircraft mechanics won't work on it, don't have spare parts, and
because it's metric - didn't have the tools.

Although I still love my Kitfox - I'm putting a Lycoming O320E2D on my
Rebel.

Tom Anderson

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Bob
Patterson
Sent: Friday, January 20, 2006 1:24 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Rebel engine choices


Hi Ben !

Here we go again !! The EA-81 is a great little engine -
about 80 hp. in the car. These guys claim 140 hp - that makes
them about 75 % smarter than the Japanese automotive engineers !
If you believe that, you might also believe their claim that
the whole engine installation will weigh less than about 240++ lb...

Don't know the company, and not knocking them specifically,
but several people have tried to squeeze more out of EA-81's.
I think Frank is still flying happily with his <STOCK> EA-81 Rebel,
but total weights would make LSA a real stretch !

Generally, for just a few pounds more, you are better off
with an EJ-22 or EJ-25 - a lot more power --- but not LSA !

.....bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Friday 20 January 2006 12:30 pm, bransom@dcsol.com wrote:

Regarding a LSA Rebel, has anyone considered a Soob engine from
http://www.ramengines.com/
Are they any good?
-Ben

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[Ken]

Sounds reasonable to me except I'd amend the last line to a LOT heavier
(as in 100 lbs more) and NOT cheaper if you want a reliable installation
worthy of being on a Rebel. "Reliable" probably precludes anything over
100 real or imaginary hp. A significant percentage of the problems with
engine conversions seem to stem directly from mods attempting to get
more hp. When one doesn't care about low end torque (driveability) you
can usually do a few things to get a bit higher peak power at high rpm
but then there is the question of durability. Internal engine forces
tend to be related to the rpm squared.

Ken

bransom@dcsol.com wrote:

Bob, John, any others on this one...
Yep I'm not surprised at your answer. The ramengines numbers do sound

too

good to be true. Still, I have heard of people running EA81s in

Rebels and

there seems to be a lot of EA81 conversion experience out there in

general.

I'll assume that if done well it could compare with a 912S, perhaps

put out a

bit more power, a bit heavier, a lot cheaper, and a lot more tinkering

to make

it go reliably.
-Ben

Hi Ben !

Here we go again !! The EA-81 is a great little engine -
about 80 hp. in the car. These guys claim 140 hp - that makes
them about 75 % smarter than the Japanese automotive engineers !
If you believe that, you might also believe their claim that
the whole engine installation will weigh less than about 240++ lb...

Don't know the company, and not knocking them specifically,
but several people have tried to squeeze more out of EA-81's.
I think Frank is still flying happily with his <STOCK> EA-81 Rebel,
but total weights would make LSA a real stretch !

Generally, for just a few pounds more, you are better off
with an EJ-22 or EJ-25 - a lot more power --- but not LSA !

.....bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Friday 20 January 2006 12:30 pm, bransom@dcsol.com wrote:

Regarding a LSA Rebel, has anyone considered a Soob engine from
http://www.ramengines.com/
Are they any good?
-Ben

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[Jesse Jenks]

Hey Nigel,
Maybe you could give us an update on your engine installation. If I remember
correctly you are using a new diesel engine design right?
Thanks
Jesse

From: Ken <klehman@albedo.net>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Rebel engine choices
Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 08:59:28 -0500

Sounds reasonable to me except I'd amend the last line to a LOT heavier
(as in 100 lbs more) and NOT cheaper if you want a reliable installation
worthy of being on a Rebel. "Reliable" probably precludes anything over
100 real or imaginary hp. A significant percentage of the problems with
engine conversions seem to stem directly from mods attempting to get
more hp. When one doesn't care about low end torque (driveability) you
can usually do a few things to get a bit higher peak power at high rpm
but then there is the question of durability. Internal engine forces
tend to be related to the rpm squared.

Ken

bransom@dcsol.com wrote:

Bob, John, any others on this one...
Yep I'm not surprised at your answer. The ramengines numbers do sound

too

good to be true. Still, I have heard of people running EA81s in

Rebels and

there seems to be a lot of EA81 conversion experience out there in

general.

I'll assume that if done well it could compare with a 912S, perhaps

put out a

bit more power, a bit heavier, a lot cheaper, and a lot more tinkering

to make

it go reliably.
-Ben

Hi Ben !

Here we go again !! The EA-81 is a great little engine -
about 80 hp. in the car. These guys claim 140 hp - that makes
them about 75 % smarter than the Japanese automotive engineers !
If you believe that, you might also believe their claim that
the whole engine installation will weigh less than about 240++ lb...

Don't know the company, and not knocking them specifically,
but several people have tried to squeeze more out of EA-81's.
I think Frank is still flying happily with his <STOCK> EA-81 Rebel,
but total weights would make LSA a real stretch !

Generally, for just a few pounds more, you are better off
with an EJ-22 or EJ-25 - a lot more power --- but not LSA !

.....bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Friday 20 January 2006 12:30 pm, bransom@dcsol.com wrote:

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[Bob Patterson]

My thoughts exactly, Ken ! Stretching from 80 to 100 hp is about
as much as anyone could hope for ... and reliability will suffer.

Ken knows the path you are considering - he has done an EJ-22
installation in his Rebel - soon to fly !
.....bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Saturday 21 January 2006 08:59 am, Ken wrote:

Sounds reasonable to me except I'd amend the last line to a LOT heavier
(as in 100 lbs more) and NOT cheaper if you want a reliable installation
worthy of being on a Rebel. "Reliable" probably precludes anything over
100 real or imaginary hp. A significant percentage of the problems with
engine conversions seem to stem directly from mods attempting to get
more hp. When one doesn't care about low end torque (driveability) you
can usually do a few things to get a bit higher peak power at high rpm
but then there is the question of durability. Internal engine forces
tend to be related to the rpm squared.

Ken

bransom@dcsol.com wrote:

Bob, John, any others on this one...
Yep I'm not surprised at your answer. The ramengines numbers do sound

too good to be true. Still, I have heard of people running EA81s in
Rebels and there seems to be a lot of EA81 conversion experience out there
in general.

I'll assume that if done well it could compare with a 912S, perhaps

put out a bit more power, a bit heavier, a lot cheaper, and a lot more
tinkering to make it go reliably.

-Ben
---------------------------------------------------

Hi Ben !

Here we go again !! The EA-81 is a great little engine -
about 80 hp. in the car. These guys claim 140 hp - that makes
them about 75 % smarter than the Japanese automotive engineers !
If you believe that, you might also believe their claim that
the whole engine installation will weigh less than about 240++ lb...

Don't know the company, and not knocking them specifically,
but several people have tried to squeeze more out of EA-81's.
I think Frank is still flying happily with his <STOCK> EA-81 Rebel,
but total weights would make LSA a real stretch !

Generally, for just a few pounds more, you are better off
with an EJ-22 or EJ-25 - a lot more power --- but not LSA !

.....bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------

On Friday 20 January 2006 12:30 pm, bransom@dcsol.com wrote:

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[bransom]

It's cool to see that there are nifty, modern engine designs, some of them
just coming into production, or trying to. One of my other reactions though,
is that a mid time Lyc is starting to sound like a bargain. Granted, there will
be some part replacement costs, but for my choice, I could more easily
stomach that than an initial $25-30k engine cost. BTW if anyone is
interested, a couple of informed reviews of recent NSI/CAP issues (and
apparently their demise) have just been aired on the airsoob list
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/airsoob/messages ).
-Ben

Bob Patterson wrote:

Hi John !

The "WAM" I mentioned below IS the Wilksch - the weight & prices
came from their web site: www.wilksch.com You're right,
if it weren't for the weight considerations, it has possibilities.
The Delta Hawk is another diesel that we're watching for our
glider towplanes .... again, too much weight for LSA, though.

As for the 185 lb/150 hp. ..... I don't think YOU'RE the
one fantasizing !! ;-)

Keep searching, keep smiling, and KEEP RIVETTING ! :-)

It will all be worth it ! ;-)
......bobp

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[bransom]

In all the variety of engine choices mentioned recently, I was wondering if
anyone knows of a LOM powered Rebel. Or more generally if LOM works out
as good as they look on paper, and approx cost of their M332. (cockpit
operable supercharger for modest boost, light weight, air cooled, direct drive,
metered fuel injection, Mogas, great HP range for Rebel). Looks iffy putting
such a narrow engine on the front of a Rebel.
-Ben




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[Jones, Michael]

ben

i researched a lom but it to long and really messes up the c of g so did not
look further

mike#007

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
bransom@dcsol.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2006 1:59 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: Rebel engine choices


In all the variety of engine choices mentioned recently, I was wondering if
anyone knows of a LOM powered Rebel. Or more generally if LOM works out
as good as they look on paper, and approx cost of their M332. (cockpit
operable supercharger for modest boost, light weight, air cooled, direct
drive,
metered fuel injection, Mogas, great HP range for Rebel). Looks iffy
putting
such a narrow engine on the front of a Rebel.
-Ben




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