rudder pedals

steve whitenect · Post by **steve whitenect** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:37 pm

Ya, Am planning to pick up a can of that spray Wayne recommends and will
leave it at that. I was quite satisfied with the end result of the rudder
install but of course will have a better idea when on the first taxi. Thanks

Steve

From: Ken <klehman@albedo.net>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Rudder pedals
Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 09:45:31 -0500

As long as you can apply full rudder and full brake at the same time in
the same direction. Some folks found that their foot hit the firewall
first or that they couldn't tilt their foot far enough forward with the
factory set up. A gentleman who had ground looped brought this to my
attention and said his foot was tilted so far forward that he couldn't
apply any brake pressure.

For the delrin torque tube bearings, you can always try "Crown" silicone
lubricant as recommended by Wayne in the archives. He cautions not to
use another brand.

Ken

steve whitenect wrote:

Al
Is there really a problem with the position of the bottom mount on the
peddles? I used the setup that came with the kit except I used a very
short
threaded end on the piston rod. I've tried it dry of course and my
little
size 11 foots don't have any interference with the upper bar thru full
travel of the rudder.

Steve W. #637Rl

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://www.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Subscription services located at:
https://www.dcsol.com/public/code/html-subscribe.htm
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

steve whitenect · Post by **steve whitenect** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:37 pm

Mike, I have mine mounted to the lower attach brackets that are welded on
the tube. I had to use the shorter fork end so the top of the brake peddle
would not tip forward. What ever they send was too long.

Steve W. #637R

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Mike Betti · Post by **Mike Betti** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:37 pm

I think I have the pedals worked out. I see now why the master cylinders
need to mounted to the floor. I also uploaded some pics to E-controls. I
think the pedals are do-able, it's just the manual lacks too much on this
subject. There is no way to install those pedals with the cylinders mounted
as instructed and still get the pedals to line up. Next I need to beef up
the floor.
Mike Betti
771E
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ralph Baker" <rebaker@sc.rr.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2005 8:37 AM
Subject: rudder pedals

Mike, the rudder pedal location is one of the most frustrating build items
I've found. I do recommend mounting the lower master cylinder attachment
to the floor. What you are trying to achieve is a linkage arrangement so
that the brake pedals move with the rudder pedals as they move fore and
aft so that you can apply the brake when needed but not inadvertantly. If
they are not, the brake pedals move fore and aft with respect to the
rudder pedals as the rudder is operated.

I also found that the MAM supplied dimensions for the motor mount / floor
doubler where the pedals mount is not sufficiently large to mount the
delrin blocks where I needed them and accommodate the lower brake cylinder
mounts. The new doublers and brake cylinder mounts are still in
fabrication so can't supply dimensions. One thing I am considering is a
complete secondary floor with the pedals and brakes mounted on the bench
and then the assembly with stiffeners installed as a unit. This would
have the advantages of stiffening the flimsy floor as well as easier
assembly on the bench.

Do measure carefully as the rework is a real pain!
Ralph Baker

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://www.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Subscription services located at:
https://www.dcsol.com/public/code/html-subscribe.htm
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Bob Patterson · Post by **Bob Patterson** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:37 pm

Hi Mike !

Maybe it's just the pics, but your brake pedals seem to be sloped
very far forward ... I like to have the vertical tubes on the rudder
pedals and brakes in line vertically, with that line sloping forward
slightly. This gives a good comfortable range ...

But - whatever position suits you -- and works well through
the full range of travel ... is your best bet ! :-)

For the floor - a doubled floor works well. Run a couple of extra
small square tubes from the cross tubes to the firewall, and run a
sheet of .032+ right across, to pick up the edges of the corner wraps.
You can mount everything to the doubled floor if you are ambitious ! ;-)

.....bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Sunday 01 January 2006 08:41 pm, Mike Betti wrote:

I think I have the pedals worked out. I see now why the master cylinders
need to mounted to the floor. I also uploaded some pics to E-controls. I
think the pedals are do-able, it's just the manual lacks too much on this
subject. There is no way to install those pedals with the cylinders

mounted

as instructed and still get the pedals to line up. Next I need to beef up
the floor.
Mike Betti
771E
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ralph Baker" <rebaker@sc.rr.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2005 8:37 AM
Subject: rudder pedals

Mike, the rudder pedal location is one of the most frustrating build

items

I've found. I do recommend mounting the lower master cylinder

attachment

to the floor. What you are trying to achieve is a linkage arrangement

so

that the brake pedals move with the rudder pedals as they move fore and
aft so that you can apply the brake when needed but not inadvertantly.

If

they are not, the brake pedals move fore and aft with respect to the
rudder pedals as the rudder is operated.

I also found that the MAM supplied dimensions for the motor mount /

floor

doubler where the pedals mount is not sufficiently large to mount the
delrin blocks where I needed them and accommodate the lower brake

cylinder

mounts. The new doublers and brake cylinder mounts are still in
fabrication so can't supply dimensions. One thing I am considering is a
complete secondary floor with the pedals and brakes mounted on the bench
and then the assembly with stiffeners installed as a unit. This would
have the advantages of stiffening the flimsy floor as well as easier
assembly on the bench.

Do measure carefully as the rework is a real pain!
Ralph Baker

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://www.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Subscription services located at:
https://www.dcsol.com/public/code/html-subscribe.htm
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://www.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Subscription services located at:
https://www.dcsol.com/public/code/html-subscribe.htm
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Wayne G. O'Shea · Post by **Wayne G. O'Shea** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:37 pm

....just remember that this "double" floor becomes a PITA when you go to add
plumbing fittings for hydraulics to floats/skis and/or your brakes. Keep
this in mind when building and be sure it's easily removable.... or avoids
the areas for fittings all together. This area is going to be a nightmare on
the Elite I have here that is going to CLAMAR's in a couple months.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Patterson" <beep@sympatico.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2006 11:36 PM
Subject: Re: rudder pedals

Hi Mike !

Maybe it's just the pics, but your brake pedals seem to be sloped
very far forward ... I like to have the vertical tubes on the rudder
pedals and brakes in line vertically, with that line sloping forward
slightly. This gives a good comfortable range ...

But - whatever position suits you -- and works well through
the full range of travel ... is your best bet ! :-)

For the floor - a doubled floor works well. Run a couple of extra
small square tubes from the cross tubes to the firewall, and run a
sheet of .032+ right across, to pick up the edges of the corner wraps.
You can mount everything to the doubled floor if you are ambitious ! ;-)

.....bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Sunday 01 January 2006 08:41 pm, Mike Betti wrote:
I think I have the pedals worked out. I see now why the master cylinders
need to mounted to the floor. I also uploaded some pics to E-controls. I
think the pedals are do-able, it's just the manual lacks too much on

this

subject. There is no way to install those pedals with the cylinders
mounted
as instructed and still get the pedals to line up. Next I need to beef

up

the floor.
Mike Betti
771E
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ralph Baker" <rebaker@sc.rr.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2005 8:37 AM
Subject: rudder pedals

Mike, the rudder pedal location is one of the most frustrating build
items
I've found. I do recommend mounting the lower master cylinder
attachment
to the floor. What you are trying to achieve is a linkage arrangement
so
that the brake pedals move with the rudder pedals as they move fore

and

aft so that you can apply the brake when needed but not inadvertantly.
If
they are not, the brake pedals move fore and aft with respect to the
rudder pedals as the rudder is operated.

I also found that the MAM supplied dimensions for the motor mount /
floor
doubler where the pedals mount is not sufficiently large to mount the
delrin blocks where I needed them and accommodate the lower brake
cylinder
mounts. The new doublers and brake cylinder mounts are still in
fabrication so can't supply dimensions. One thing I am considering is

a

complete secondary floor with the pedals and brakes mounted on the

bench

and then the assembly with stiffeners installed as a unit. This would
have the advantages of stiffening the flimsy floor as well as easier
assembly on the bench.

Do measure carefully as the rework is a real pain!
Ralph Baker

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://www.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Subscription services located at:
https://www.dcsol.com/public/code/html-subscribe.htm
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://www.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Subscription services located at:
https://www.dcsol.com/public/code/html-subscribe.htm
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://www.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Subscription services located at:
https://www.dcsol.com/public/code/html-subscribe.htm
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Alan Hepburn · Post by **Alan Hepburn** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:37 pm

Mike:

I just looked at the pics on your website, and you appear to have things
wrong on the ruder pedals:
When installed and rigged, you are right, the tops of the left and right
pedals need to be in line. This means that one set of pedals slopes
backwards a little, and the other set slopes forward. However, the brake
part of the pedal is vertical in both cases. The brake pushrods need to
have the bend forwards - not backwards as seems to be the case in your pics.
By installing the pushrod in front of the pedal in one case and behind it in
the other, it's possible to get the axes of the pivot tubes closer together,
hence minimising the amount of tilt required on the pedals. I'll see if I
have some pics. They may be on Wildcat already.

It's really deplorable how deficient the instructions are in this key area.

Al

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

N.Smith · Post by **N.Smith** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:37 pm

Hi Mike and Al

I've just had a look at the website and I agree with Al, mine do look
different, and I think I used the exploded 3D diagram at the start of the
section to figure how it went together as the instructions on the page were
too vague.

That would also account for why Mike has had to reduce the pushrod bolt
centres, again mine needed no modification.

I'll post some pic's to the archive if you need Mike !

Nigel
745E

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Alan Hepburn
Sent: 02 January 2006 14:09
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: rudder pedals

Mike:

I just looked at the pics on your website, and you appear to have things
wrong on the ruder pedals:
When installed and rigged, you are right, the tops of the left and right
pedals need to be in line. This means that one set of pedals slopes
backwards a little, and the other set slopes forward. However, the brake
part of the pedal is vertical in both cases. The brake pushrods need to
have the bend forwards - not backwards as seems to be the case in your pics.
By installing the pushrod in front of the pedal in one case and behind it in
the other, it's possible to get the axes of the pivot tubes closer together,
hence minimising the amount of tilt required on the pedals. I'll see if I
have some pics. They may be on Wildcat already.

It's really deplorable how deficient the instructions are in this key area.

Al

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://www.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Subscription services located at:
https://www.dcsol.com/public/code/html-subscribe.htm
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Mike Betti · Post by **Mike Betti** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:37 pm

Thanks for the pics Al. I looked at your setup and will try it on mine to
see what happens. This is definately different than what that manual shows
us.
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan Hepburn" <ahepburn@renc.igs.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006 8:09 AM
Subject: Re: rudder pedals

Mike:

I just looked at the pics on your website, and you appear to have things
wrong on the ruder pedals:
When installed and rigged, you are right, the tops of the left and right
pedals need to be in line. This means that one set of pedals slopes
backwards a little, and the other set slopes forward. However, the brake
part of the pedal is vertical in both cases. The brake pushrods need to
have the bend forwards - not backwards as seems to be the case in your
pics.
By installing the pushrod in front of the pedal in one case and behind it
in
the other, it's possible to get the axes of the pivot tubes closer
together,
hence minimising the amount of tilt required on the pedals. I'll see if I
have some pics. They may be on Wildcat already.

It's really deplorable how deficient the instructions are in this key
area.

Al

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://www.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Subscription services located at:
https://www.dcsol.com/public/code/html-subscribe.htm
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Mike Betti · Post by **Mike Betti** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:37 pm

Thanks,
Al sent me some photos. I had some pics from an elite not far from here and
he had what I did.
The instructions say build the first assembly and then make the second one
the same except for where the cable attaches to the opposite side.
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: "N.Smith" <admin@airnig.co.uk>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006 10:32 AM
Subject: RE: rudder pedals

Hi Mike and Al

I've just had a look at the website and I agree with Al, mine do look
different, and I think I used the exploded 3D diagram at the start of the
section to figure how it went together as the instructions on the page
were
too vague.

That would also account for why Mike has had to reduce the pushrod bolt
centres, again mine needed no modification.

I'll post some pic's to the archive if you need Mike !

Nigel
745E

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Alan Hepburn
Sent: 02 January 2006 14:09
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: rudder pedals

Mike:

I just looked at the pics on your website, and you appear to have things
wrong on the ruder pedals:
When installed and rigged, you are right, the tops of the left and right
pedals need to be in line. This means that one set of pedals slopes
backwards a little, and the other set slopes forward. However, the brake
part of the pedal is vertical in both cases. The brake pushrods need to
have the bend forwards - not backwards as seems to be the case in your
pics.
By installing the pushrod in front of the pedal in one case and behind it
in
the other, it's possible to get the axes of the pivot tubes closer
together,
hence minimising the amount of tilt required on the pedals. I'll see if I
have some pics. They may be on Wildcat already.

It's really deplorable how deficient the instructions are in this key
area.

Al

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://www.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Subscription services located at:
https://www.dcsol.com/public/code/html-subscribe.htm
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://www.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Subscription services located at:
https://www.dcsol.com/public/code/html-subscribe.htm
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Mike Betti · Post by **Mike Betti** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:37 pm

Bob,
Does your double floor example just go up to the pedals?
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Patterson" <beep@sympatico.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2006 10:36 PM
Subject: Re: rudder pedals

Hi Mike !

Maybe it's just the pics, but your brake pedals seem to be sloped
very far forward ... I like to have the vertical tubes on the rudder
pedals and brakes in line vertically, with that line sloping forward
slightly. This gives a good comfortable range ...

But - whatever position suits you -- and works well through
the full range of travel ... is your best bet ! :-)

For the floor - a doubled floor works well. Run a couple of extra
small square tubes from the cross tubes to the firewall, and run a
sheet of .032+ right across, to pick up the edges of the corner wraps.
You can mount everything to the doubled floor if you are ambitious ! ;-)

.....bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Sunday 01 January 2006 08:41 pm, Mike Betti wrote:
I think I have the pedals worked out. I see now why the master cylinders
need to mounted to the floor. I also uploaded some pics to E-controls. I
think the pedals are do-able, it's just the manual lacks too much on this
subject. There is no way to install those pedals with the cylinders
mounted
as instructed and still get the pedals to line up. Next I need to beef up
the floor.
Mike Betti
771E
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ralph Baker" <rebaker@sc.rr.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2005 8:37 AM
Subject: rudder pedals

Mike, the rudder pedal location is one of the most frustrating build
items
I've found. I do recommend mounting the lower master cylinder
attachment
to the floor. What you are trying to achieve is a linkage arrangement
so
that the brake pedals move with the rudder pedals as they move fore
and
aft so that you can apply the brake when needed but not inadvertantly.
If
they are not, the brake pedals move fore and aft with respect to the
rudder pedals as the rudder is operated.

I also found that the MAM supplied dimensions for the motor mount /
floor
doubler where the pedals mount is not sufficiently large to mount the
delrin blocks where I needed them and accommodate the lower brake
cylinder
mounts. The new doublers and brake cylinder mounts are still in
fabrication so can't supply dimensions. One thing I am considering is
a
complete secondary floor with the pedals and brakes mounted on the
bench
and then the assembly with stiffeners installed as a unit. This would
have the advantages of stiffening the flimsy floor as well as easier
assembly on the bench.

Do measure carefully as the rework is a real pain!
Ralph Baker

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://www.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Subscription services located at:
https://www.dcsol.com/public/code/html-subscribe.htm
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://www.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Subscription services located at:
https://www.dcsol.com/public/code/html-subscribe.htm
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://www.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Subscription services located at:
https://www.dcsol.com/public/code/html-subscribe.htm
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Ralph Baker · Post by **Ralph Baker** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:20 pm

I went through multiple (think weight saving!) drilling to mount the MAM rudder pedals and brake square tubes. Finally decided there had to be a better way to avoid all the monkey linkage and possible over center lockup. Note we had the bent tubes and mounted the brake tube to the floor and still no joy.

Final result was a bunch of 4130 from ACS and fabricated a knockoff of the rudder pedal setup as used on the Just Aircraft and the Bearhawk. Much neater and confidence inspiring as there is only one cross tube and brake lockup can't occur. The only downside is an additional set of master cylinders is required in addition to much hacksaw and file work, and welding. This is one mod I would do again.
Ralph Baker

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Ralph Baker · Post by **Ralph Baker** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:20 pm

Ted,
They are welded but I am still cleaning them up and painting. Not yet installed. I am not sure a picture will convey enough information as I had to study the real thing for a good while to understand how they worked and the dimensional relationships. Actually not that complicated to build once I figured it out. A Joint Jigger would have made it a snap by replacing a great deal of hand filing. Once they are installed and operating properly I will attempt to convey the information in a usable form. Meanwhile, if you go to any airshows do look at the Bearhawk and Just aiplanes. One look is worth a thousand of my words at least.
Ralph
Or, if anyone gets to Sumter, South Carolina (SMS) I will be glad to show you what I have done and maybe the Just that is being built here

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------