Experimental operating limitations

Scott Aldrich · Post by **Scott Aldrich** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:18 pm

A few of has been talking off list about this, thought I would bring it on
list.

The FAR's (US) state something about experimental aircraft can't be flown
over densely populated areas. But we have also heard it depends on your
phase two operating limitation or something like that. For you guys already
flying what do your limitation read like? Is it consistent to NOT have the
restriction or does it depend on the examiner?

I've never heard of anyone not being able to fly anywhere a certified
aircraft does??

Thanks
Scott
Moose 174

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

George Coy · Post by **George Coy** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:18 pm

As A DAR that issues the limitations to homebuilt, the following is the
wording that the FAA handbook requires us to put in the limitations:
(2) Except for takeoffs and landings, this aircraft may not be operated over
densely populated areas or in congested airways.

(3) This aircraft is prohibited from operating in congested airways or over
densely populated areas unless directed by air traffic control, or unless
sufficient altitude is maintained to effect a safe emergency landing in the
event of a power unit failure, without hazard to persons or property on the
ground.

It is pretty self explanatory. The only Hiccup is that nowhere in the FAR's
is "densely populated areas" defined. From a practical point of view if you
are flying through a metropolitan area, get flight following and you are
probably covered. I am not aware of any enforcement actions on this clause
unless there was an accident and someone on the ground was hurt.

George Coy
President
Gesoco Industries Inc.
629 Airport Rd.
Swanton, VT 05488
TEL 802-868-5633
FAX 802-868-4465
Web Site www.gesoco.com
e-mail George@gesoco.com
Franklin County Airport (KFSO)

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Scott Aldrich
Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2005 12:10 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Experimental operating limitations

A few of has been talking off list about this, thought I would bring it on
list.

The FAR's (US) state something about experimental aircraft can't be flown
over densely populated areas. But we have also heard it depends on your
phase two operating limitation or something like that. For you guys already
flying what do your limitation read like? Is it consistent to NOT have the
restriction or does it depend on the examiner?

I've never heard of anyone not being able to fly anywhere a certified
aircraft does??

Thanks
Scott
Moose 174

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://www.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Subscription services located at:
https://www.dcsol.com/public/code/html-subscribe.htm
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Scott Aldrich · Post by **Scott Aldrich** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:18 pm

Answered my own question here:

http://www.eaa.org/communications/eaane ... built.html

The important part copied here below.

The revisions clearly state the guidelines for homebuilt flight over
populated areas:

"An aircraft is prohibited from operating in congested airways or over
densely populated areas unless directed by Air Traffic Control, or unless
sufficient altitude is maintained to affect a safe emergency landing in the
event of a power unit failure, without hazard to persons or property on the
surface."

So it seems just follow the part 91 rules like everyone else.

Scott

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Scott
Aldrich
Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2005 10:10 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Experimental operating limitations

A few of has been talking off list about this, thought I would bring it on
list.

The FAR's (US) state something about experimental aircraft can't be flown
over densely populated areas. But we have also heard it depends on your
phase two operating limitation or something like that. For you guys already
flying what do your limitation read like? Is it consistent to NOT have the
restriction or does it depend on the examiner?

I've never heard of anyone not being able to fly anywhere a certified
aircraft does??

Thanks
Scott
Moose 174

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://www.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Subscription services located at:
https://www.dcsol.com/public/code/html-subscribe.htm
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Scott Aldrich · Post by **Scott Aldrich** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:18 pm

Thanks George. I finally found similar at the EAA (must have hit send at
the same time), good to hear it from a DAR.

Scott

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of George
Coy
Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2005 10:27 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: Experimental operating limitations

As A DAR that issues the limitations to homebuilt, the following is the
wording that the FAA handbook requires us to put in the limitations:
(2) Except for takeoffs and landings, this aircraft may not be operated over
densely populated areas or in congested airways.

(3) This aircraft is prohibited from operating in congested airways or over
densely populated areas unless directed by air traffic control, or unless
sufficient altitude is maintained to effect a safe emergency landing in the
event of a power unit failure, without hazard to persons or property on the
ground.

It is pretty self explanatory. The only Hiccup is that nowhere in the FAR's
is "densely populated areas" defined. From a practical point of view if you
are flying through a metropolitan area, get flight following and you are
probably covered. I am not aware of any enforcement actions on this clause
unless there was an accident and someone on the ground was hurt.

George Coy
President
Gesoco Industries Inc.
629 Airport Rd.
Swanton, VT 05488
TEL 802-868-5633
FAX 802-868-4465
Web Site www.gesoco.com
e-mail George@gesoco.com
Franklin County Airport (KFSO)

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Scott Aldrich
Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2005 12:10 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Experimental operating limitations

A few of has been talking off list about this, thought I would bring it on
list.

The FAR's (US) state something about experimental aircraft can't be flown
over densely populated areas. But we have also heard it depends on your
phase two operating limitation or something like that. For you guys already
flying what do your limitation read like? Is it consistent to NOT have the
restriction or does it depend on the examiner?

I've never heard of anyone not being able to fly anywhere a certified
aircraft does??

Thanks
Scott
Moose 174

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://www.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Subscription services located at:
https://www.dcsol.com/public/code/html-subscribe.htm
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://www.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Subscription services located at:
https://www.dcsol.com/public/code/html-subscribe.htm
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

pequeajim · Post by **pequeajim** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:18 pm

It agctualy reads like this:

FAR 91.319(c) states, "Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator in
special operating limitations, no person may operate an aircraft that has an
experimental certificate over a densely populated area or in a congested
airway. The Administrator may issue special operating limitations for a
particular aircraft to permit takeoffs and landings to be conducted over a
densely populated area or in a congested airway, in accordance with terms and
conditions specified in the authorization in the interest of safety in air
commerce."

I interpret this as the Administrator having the authority to allow you to do
this. Probably because some airports are so close to these areas that you
would not be able to get out of or land at the airport if the ammendment was
not issued??

On 11/8/2005 8:10 AM, sa@mwutah.com wrote to rebel-builders:

-> A few of has been talking off list about this, thought I would bring it on
-> list.
->
-> The FAR's (US) state something about experimental aircraft can't be flown
-> over densely populated areas. But we have also heard it depends on your
-> phase two operating limitation or something like that. For you guys
already
-> flying what do your limitation read like? Is it consistent to NOT have the
-> restriction or does it depend on the examiner?
->
-> I've never heard of anyone not being able to fly anywhere a certified
-> aircraft does??
->
-> Thanks
-> Scott
-> Moose 174
->

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

pequeajim · Post by **pequeajim** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:18 pm

THanks for the clarification George.

On 11/8/2005 8:26 AM, george@gesoco.com wrote to rebel-builders:

-> As A DAR that issues the limitations to homebuilt, the following is the
-> wording that the FAA handbook requires us to put in the limitations:
-> (2) Except for takeoffs and landings, this aircraft may not be operated
over
-> densely populated areas or in congested airways.
->
-> (3) This aircraft is prohibited from operating in congested airways or over
-> densely populated areas unless directed by air traffic control, or unless
-> sufficient altitude is maintained to effect a safe emergency landing in the
-> event of a power unit failure, without hazard to persons or property on the
-> ground.
->
-> It is pretty self explanatory. The only Hiccup is that nowhere in the FAR's
-> is "densely populated areas" defined. From a practical point of view if you
-> are flying through a metropolitan area, get flight following and you are
-> probably covered. I am not aware of any enforcement actions on this clause
-> unless there was an accident and someone on the ground was hurt.
->
-> George Coy
-> President
-> Gesoco Industries Inc.
-> 629 Airport Rd.
-> Swanton, VT 05488
-> TEL 802-868-5633
-> FAX 802-868-4465
-> Web Site www.gesoco.com
-> e-mail George@gesoco.com
-> Franklin County Airport (KFSO)
->
-> -----Original Message-----
-> From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
-> Scott Aldrich
-> Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2005 12:10 PM
-> To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
-> Subject: Experimental operating limitations
->
->
-> A few of has been talking off list about this, thought I would bring it on
-> list.
->
-> The FAR's (US) state something about experimental aircraft can't be flown
-> over densely populated areas. But we have also heard it depends on your
-> phase two operating limitation or something like that. For you guys
already
-> flying what do your limitation read like? Is it consistent to NOT have the
-> restriction or does it depend on the examiner?
->
-> I've never heard of anyone not being able to fly anywhere a certified
-> aircraft does??
->
-> Thanks
-> Scott
-> Moose 174
->
->
->
->
-> -----------------------------------------------------------------
-> List archives located at: https://www.dcsol.com/login
-> username "rebel" password "builder"
-> Subscription services located at:
-> https://www.dcsol.com/public/code/html-subscribe.htm
-> List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-> -----------------------------------------------------------------
->
->
->
->
->

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

George Coy · Post by **George Coy** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:18 pm

As a DAR's, we are acting as a representative of the administrator. The
following letter from a FAA official that I know ought to set it straight:

Mr. Coy,

As a representative of the administrator, or sometimes when authorized, to
act as the administrator, a comprehensive investigation must be conducted by
a team or teams of one person or several persons from this or several other
agencys to ensure that you or several other pilots or person or persons have
tried or attempted to try to comprehend or understand any or all, in whole
or in part of one or more that one of the many Federal Aviation Regulations.
It is my duty as a representative of the administrator, or sometimes when
authorized, to act as the administrator, to ensure that any one pilot or
pilots or one person or persons that have or have appeared to have read any
one, or more than one of the Federal Aviation Regulations and understood any
one or more than one of the Federal Aviation Regulations, to initiate
appropriate action, which may include but not limited to an immediate
rewrite of the specific or multiple Federal Aviation Regulations, or require
you, pilots or person or persons to attend remedial instruction, which may
include classroom instruction, of the Federal Aviation Regulations until
you, the pilots or person or persons have any understanding of how to
function so that this agency or other agencys will never receive such a
letter or letters from anyone.

At this time , appropriations are being requested to conduct a full
investigation in this matter and you will be notified by this representative
of the administrator, or sometimes when authorized, to act as the
administrator. Ensure that you, the pilots, or person or persons are
available for an interview.

We are here to help you,

Acting Administrator

By the way, next time you see a FAA Ops or Maintenance person, ask him or
her "HOW IS IT GOING ON YOUR JOURNEY TO EXCELLENCE?"

George Coy
President
Gesoco Industries Inc.
629 Airport Rd.
Swanton, VT 05488
TEL 802-868-5633
FAX 802-868-4465
Web Site www.gesoco.com
e-mail George@gesoco.com
Franklin County Airport (KFSO)

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
pequeajim@dcsol.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2005 2:04 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: Experimental operating limitations

It agctualy reads like this:

FAR 91.319(c) states, "Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator in
special operating limitations, no person may operate an aircraft that has an
experimental certificate over a densely populated area or in a congested
airway. The Administrator may issue special operating limitations for a
particular aircraft to permit takeoffs and landings to be conducted over a
densely populated area or in a congested airway, in accordance with terms
and
conditions specified in the authorization in the interest of safety in air
commerce."

I interpret this as the Administrator having the authority to allow you to
do
this. Probably because some airports are so close to these areas that you
would not be able to get out of or land at the airport if the ammendment was
not issued??

On 11/8/2005 8:10 AM, sa@mwutah.com wrote to rebel-builders:

-> A few of has been talking off list about this, thought I would bring it
on
-> list.
->
-> The FAR's (US) state something about experimental aircraft can't be flown
-> over densely populated areas. But we have also heard it depends on your
-> phase two operating limitation or something like that. For you guys
already
-> flying what do your limitation read like? Is it consistent to NOT have
the
-> restriction or does it depend on the examiner?
->
-> I've never heard of anyone not being able to fly anywhere a certified
-> aircraft does??
->
-> Thanks
-> Scott
-> Moose 174
->

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://www.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Subscription services located at:
https://www.dcsol.com/public/code/html-subscribe.htm
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Ted Waltman · Post by **Ted Waltman** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:18 pm

The only thing I was able to understand in that letter was the "We are
here to help you" end of it. <grin>

Ted

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
George Coy
Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2005 12:21 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: Experimental operating limitations

As a DAR's, we are acting as a representative of the administrator. The
following letter from a FAA official that I know ought to set it
straight:

Mr. Coy,

As a representative of the administrator, or sometimes when authorized,
to act as the administrator, a comprehensive investigation must be
conducted by a team or teams of one person or several persons from this
or several other agencys to ensure that you or several other pilots or
person or persons have tried or attempted to try to comprehend or
understand any or all, in whole or in part of one or more that one of
the many Federal Aviation Regulations. It is my duty as a representative
of the administrator, or sometimes when authorized, to act as the
administrator, to ensure that any one pilot or pilots or one person or
persons that have or have appeared to have read any one, or more than
one of the Federal Aviation Regulations and understood any one or more
than one of the Federal Aviation Regulations, to initiate appropriate
action, which may include but not limited to an immediate rewrite of the
specific or multiple Federal Aviation Regulations, or require you,
pilots or person or persons to attend remedial instruction, which may
include classroom instruction, of the Federal Aviation Regulations until
you, the pilots or person or persons have any understanding of how to
function so that this agency or other agencys will never receive such a
letter or letters from anyone.

At this time , appropriations are being requested to conduct a full
investigation in this matter and you will be notified by this
representative of the administrator, or sometimes when authorized, to
act as the administrator. Ensure that you, the pilots, or person or
persons are available for an interview.

We are here to help you,

Acting Administrator

By the way, next time you see a FAA Ops or Maintenance person, ask him
or her "HOW IS IT GOING ON YOUR JOURNEY TO EXCELLENCE?"

George Coy
President
Gesoco Industries Inc.
629 Airport Rd.
Swanton, VT 05488
TEL 802-868-5633
FAX 802-868-4465
Web Site www.gesoco.com
e-mail George@gesoco.com
Franklin County Airport (KFSO)

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
pequeajim@dcsol.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2005 2:04 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: Experimental operating limitations

It agctualy reads like this:

FAR 91.319(c) states, "Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator
in special operating limitations, no person may operate an aircraft that
has an experimental certificate over a densely populated area or in a
congested airway. The Administrator may issue special operating
limitations for a particular aircraft to permit takeoffs and landings to
be conducted over a densely populated area or in a congested airway, in
accordance with terms and conditions specified in the authorization in
the interest of safety in air commerce."

I interpret this as the Administrator having the authority to allow you
to do this. Probably because some airports are so close to these areas
that you would not be able to get out of or land at the airport if the
ammendment was not issued??

On 11/8/2005 8:10 AM, sa@mwutah.com wrote to rebel-builders:

-> A few of has been talking off list about this, thought I would bring
-> it
on
-> list.
->
-> The FAR's (US) state something about experimental aircraft can't be
-> flown over densely populated areas. But we have also heard it
-> depends on your phase two operating limitation or something like
-> that. For you guys
already
-> flying what do your limitation read like? Is it consistent to NOT
-> have
the
-> restriction or does it depend on the examiner?
->
-> I've never heard of anyone not being able to fly anywhere a certified

-> aircraft does??
->
-> Thanks
-> Scott
-> Moose 174
->

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://www.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Subscription services located at:
https://www.dcsol.com/public/code/html-subscribe.htm
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://www.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Subscription services located at:
https://www.dcsol.com/public/code/html-subscribe.htm
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Jim Cole · Post by **Jim Cole** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:18 pm

Now I believe the rumour that there are more lawyers in the US on a per
capita basis than anywhere else in the world! What a mouthful!

Cheers
Jim

George Coy wrote:

As a DAR's, we are acting as a representative of the administrator. The
following letter from a FAA official that I know ought to set it straight:

Mr. Coy,

As a representative of the administrator, or sometimes when authorized, to
act as the administrator, a comprehensive investigation must be conducted by
a team or teams of one person or several persons from this or several other
agencys to ensure that you or several other pilots or person or persons have
tried or attempted to try to comprehend or understand any or all, in whole
or in part of one or more that one of the many Federal Aviation Regulations.
It is my duty as a representative of the administrator, or sometimes when
authorized, to act as the administrator, to ensure that any one pilot or
pilots or one person or persons that have or have appeared to have read any
one, or more than one of the Federal Aviation Regulations and understood any
one or more than one of the Federal Aviation Regulations, to initiate
appropriate action, which may include but not limited to an immediate
rewrite of the specific or multiple Federal Aviation Regulations, or require
you, pilots or person or persons to attend remedial instruction, which may
include classroom instruction, of the Federal Aviation Regulations until
you, the pilots or person or persons have any understanding of how to
function so that this agency or other agencys will never receive such a
letter or letters from anyone.

At this time , appropriations are being requested to conduct a full
investigation in this matter and you will be notified by this representative
of the administrator, or sometimes when authorized, to act as the
administrator. Ensure that you, the pilots, or person or persons are
available for an interview.

We are here to help you,

Acting Administrator

By the way, next time you see a FAA Ops or Maintenance person, ask him or
her "HOW IS IT GOING ON YOUR JOURNEY TO EXCELLENCE?"

George Coy
President
Gesoco Industries Inc.
629 Airport Rd.
Swanton, VT 05488
TEL 802-868-5633
FAX 802-868-4465
Web Site www.gesoco.com
e-mail George@gesoco.com
Franklin County Airport (KFSO)

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
pequeajim@dcsol.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2005 2:04 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: Experimental operating limitations

It agctualy reads like this:

FAR 91.319(c) states, "Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator in
special operating limitations, no person may operate an aircraft that has an
experimental certificate over a densely populated area or in a congested
airway. The Administrator may issue special operating limitations for a
particular aircraft to permit takeoffs and landings to be conducted over a
densely populated area or in a congested airway, in accordance with terms
and
conditions specified in the authorization in the interest of safety in air
commerce."

I interpret this as the Administrator having the authority to allow you to
do
this. Probably because some airports are so close to these areas that you
would not be able to get out of or land at the airport if the ammendment was
not issued??

On 11/8/2005 8:10 AM, sa@mwutah.com wrote to rebel-builders:

-> A few of has been talking off list about this, thought I would bring it
on
-> list.
->
-> The FAR's (US) state something about experimental aircraft can't be flown
-> over densely populated areas. But we have also heard it depends on your
-> phase two operating limitation or something like that. For you guys
already
-> flying what do your limitation read like? Is it consistent to NOT have
the
-> restriction or does it depend on the examiner?
->
-> I've never heard of anyone not being able to fly anywhere a certified
-> aircraft does??
->
-> Thanks
-> Scott
-> Moose 174
->

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://www.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Subscription services located at:
https://www.dcsol.com/public/code/html-subscribe.htm
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://www.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Subscription services located at:
https://www.dcsol.com/public/code/html-subscribe.htm
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Al Paxhia · Post by **Al Paxhia** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:18 pm

Please tell me this is really just humor!!!!!
Al
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ted Waltman" <tedwaltman@i1ci.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2005 12:05 PM
Subject: RE: Experimental operating limitations

The only thing I was able to understand in that letter was the "We are
here to help you" end of it. <grin>

Ted

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
George Coy
Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2005 12:21 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: Experimental operating limitations

As a DAR's, we are acting as a representative of the administrator. The
following letter from a FAA official that I know ought to set it
straight:

Mr. Coy,

As a representative of the administrator, or sometimes when authorized,
to act as the administrator, a comprehensive investigation must be
conducted by a team or teams of one person or several persons from this
or several other agencys to ensure that you or several other pilots or
person or persons have tried or attempted to try to comprehend or
understand any or all, in whole or in part of one or more that one of
the many Federal Aviation Regulations. It is my duty as a representative
of the administrator, or sometimes when authorized, to act as the
administrator, to ensure that any one pilot or pilots or one person or
persons that have or have appeared to have read any one, or more than
one of the Federal Aviation Regulations and understood any one or more
than one of the Federal Aviation Regulations, to initiate appropriate
action, which may include but not limited to an immediate rewrite of the
specific or multiple Federal Aviation Regulations, or require you,
pilots or person or persons to attend remedial instruction, which may
include classroom instruction, of the Federal Aviation Regulations until
you, the pilots or person or persons have any understanding of how to
function so that this agency or other agencys will never receive such a
letter or letters from anyone.

At this time , appropriations are being requested to conduct a full
investigation in this matter and you will be notified by this
representative of the administrator, or sometimes when authorized, to
act as the administrator. Ensure that you, the pilots, or person or
persons are available for an interview.

We are here to help you,

Acting Administrator

By the way, next time you see a FAA Ops or Maintenance person, ask him
or her "HOW IS IT GOING ON YOUR JOURNEY TO EXCELLENCE?"

George Coy
President
Gesoco Industries Inc.
629 Airport Rd.
Swanton, VT 05488
TEL 802-868-5633
FAX 802-868-4465
Web Site www.gesoco.com
e-mail George@gesoco.com
Franklin County Airport (KFSO)

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
pequeajim@dcsol.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2005 2:04 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: Experimental operating limitations

It agctualy reads like this:

FAR 91.319(c) states, "Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator
in special operating limitations, no person may operate an aircraft that
has an experimental certificate over a densely populated area or in a
congested airway. The Administrator may issue special operating
limitations for a particular aircraft to permit takeoffs and landings to
be conducted over a densely populated area or in a congested airway, in
accordance with terms and conditions specified in the authorization in
the interest of safety in air commerce."

I interpret this as the Administrator having the authority to allow you
to do this. Probably because some airports are so close to these areas
that you would not be able to get out of or land at the airport if the
ammendment was not issued??

On 11/8/2005 8:10 AM, sa@mwutah.com wrote to rebel-builders:

-> A few of has been talking off list about this, thought I would bring
-> it
on
-> list.
->
-> The FAR's (US) state something about experimental aircraft can't be
-> flown over densely populated areas. But we have also heard it
-> depends on your phase two operating limitation or something like
-> that. For you guys
already
-> flying what do your limitation read like? Is it consistent to NOT
-> have
the
-> restriction or does it depend on the examiner?
->
-> I've never heard of anyone not being able to fly anywhere a certified

-> aircraft does??
->
-> Thanks
-> Scott
-> Moose 174
->

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://www.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Subscription services located at:
https://www.dcsol.com/public/code/html-subscribe.htm
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://www.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Subscription services located at:
https://www.dcsol.com/public/code/html-subscribe.htm
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://www.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Subscription services located at:
https://www.dcsol.com/public/code/html-subscribe.htm
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Fred Messinger \(fredm\) · Post by **Fred Messinger \(fredm\)** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:18 pm

I finally got it!!! What a hoot!! It took me a while, but it's a
great bit of toungue-in-cheek.

The trick is to pan thru FAA-speak quickly. And ignore the phrases
that begin with "or,..."

Good one, Geourge. :-)

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Jim Cole
Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2005 3:13 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Experimental operating limitations

Now I believe the rumour that there are more lawyers in the US on a per
capita basis than anywhere else in the world! What a mouthful!

Cheers
Jim

George Coy wrote:

As a DAR's, we are acting as a representative of the administrator. The

following letter from a FAA official that I know ought to set it

straight:

Mr. Coy,

As a representative of the administrator, or sometimes when authorized,

to act as the administrator, a comprehensive investigation must be
conducted by a team or teams of one person or several persons from this

or several other agencys to ensure that you or several other pilots or
person or persons have tried or attempted to try to comprehend or
understand any or all, in whole or in part of one or more that one of

the many Federal Aviation Regulations.

It is my duty as a representative of the administrator, or sometimes
when authorized, to act as the administrator, to ensure that any one
pilot or pilots or one person or persons that have or have appeared to
have read any one, or more than one of the Federal Aviation Regulations

and understood any one or more than one of the Federal Aviation
Regulations, to initiate appropriate action, which may include but not
limited to an immediate rewrite of the specific or multiple Federal
Aviation Regulations, or require you, pilots or person or persons to
attend remedial instruction, which may include classroom instruction,
of the Federal Aviation Re-gulations until you, the pilots or person or

persons have any understanding of how to function so that this agency
or other agencys will never receive such a letter or letters from

anyone.

At this time , appropriations are being requested to conduct a full
investigation in this matter and you will be notified by this
representative of the administrator, or sometimes when authorized, to
act as the administrator. Ensure that you, the pilots, or person or
persons are available for an interview.

We are here to help you,

Acting Administrator

By the way, next time you see a FAA Ops or Maintenance person, ask him
or her "HOW IS IT GOING ON YOUR JOURNEY TO EXCELLENCE?"

George Coy
President
Gesoco Industries Inc.
629 Airport Rd.
Swanton, VT 05488
TEL 802-868-5633
FAX 802-868-4465
Web Site www.gesoco.com
e-mail George@gesoco.com
Franklin County Airport (KFSO)

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
pequeajim@dcsol.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2005 2:04 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: Experimental operating limitations

It agctualy reads like this:

FAR 91.319(c) states, "Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator

in special operating limitations, no person may operate an aircraft
that has an experimental certificate over a densely populated area or
in a congested airway. The Administrator may issue special operating
limitations for a particular aircraft to permit takeoffs and landings
to be conducted over a densely populated area or in a congested airway,

in accordance with terms and conditions specified in the authorization
in the interest of safety in air commerce."

I interpret this as the Administrator having the authority to allow you

to do this. Probably because some airports are so close to these areas

that you would not be able to get out of or land at the airport if the
ammendment was not issued??

On 11/8/2005 8:10 AM, sa@mwutah.com wrote to rebel-builders:

-> A few of has been talking off list about this, thought I would bring

-> it
on
-> list.
->
-> The FAR's (US) state something about experimental aircraft can't be
-> flown over densely populated areas. But we have also heard it
-> depends on your phase two operating limitation or something like
-> that. For you guys
already
-> flying what do your limitation read like? Is it consistent to NOT
-> have
the
-> restriction or does it depend on the examiner?
->
-> I've never heard of anyone not being able to fly anywhere a
-> certified aircraft does??
->
-> Thanks
-> Scott
-> Moose 174
->

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://www.dcsol.com/login username
"rebel" password "builder"
Subscription services located at:
https://www.dcsol.com/public/code/html-subscribe.htm
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://www.dcsol.com/login username
"rebel" password "builder"
Subscription services located at:
https://www.dcsol.com/public/code/html-subscribe.htm
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://www.dcsol.com/login username "rebel"
password "builder"
Subscription services located at:
https://www.dcsol.com/public/code/html-subscribe.htm
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Fred Messinger \(fredm\) · Post by **Fred Messinger \(fredm\)** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:18 pm

George! Not Geourge.....sorry

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Fred Messinger (fredm)
Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2005 3:22 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: Experimental operating limitations

I finally got it!!! What a hoot!! It took me a while, but it's a
great bit of toungue-in-cheek.

The trick is to pan thru FAA-speak quickly. And ignore the phrases
that begin with "or,..."

Good one, Geourge. :-)

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Jim Cole
Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2005 3:13 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Experimental operating limitations

Now I believe the rumour that there are more lawyers in the US on a per
capita basis than anywhere else in the world! What a mouthful!

Cheers
Jim

George Coy wrote:

As a DAR's, we are acting as a representative of the administrator. The

following letter from a FAA official that I know ought to set it

straight:

Mr. Coy,

As a representative of the administrator, or sometimes when authorized,

to act as the administrator, a comprehensive investigation must be
conducted by a team or teams of one person or several persons from this

or several other agencys to ensure that you or several other pilots or
person or persons have tried or attempted to try to comprehend or
understand any or all, in whole or in part of one or more that one of

the many Federal Aviation Regulations.

It is my duty as a representative of the administrator, or sometimes
when authorized, to act as the administrator, to ensure that any one
pilot or pilots or one person or persons that have or have appeared to
have read any one, or more than one of the Federal Aviation Regulations

and understood any one or more than one of the Federal Aviation
Regulations, to initiate appropriate action, which may include but not
limited to an immediate rewrite of the specific or multiple Federal
Aviation Regulations, or require you, pilots or person or persons to
attend remedial instruction, which may include classroom instruction,
of the Federal Aviation Re-gulations until you, the pilots or person or

persons have any understanding of how to function so that this agency
or other agencys will never receive such a letter or letters from

anyone.

At this time , appropriations are being requested to conduct a full
investigation in this matter and you will be notified by this
representative of the administrator, or sometimes when authorized, to
act as the administrator. Ensure that you, the pilots, or person or
persons are available for an interview.

We are here to help you,

Acting Administrator

By the way, next time you see a FAA Ops or Maintenance person, ask him
or her "HOW IS IT GOING ON YOUR JOURNEY TO EXCELLENCE?"

George Coy
President
Gesoco Industries Inc.
629 Airport Rd.
Swanton, VT 05488
TEL 802-868-5633
FAX 802-868-4465
Web Site www.gesoco.com
e-mail George@gesoco.com
Franklin County Airport (KFSO)

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
pequeajim@dcsol.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2005 2:04 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: Experimental operating limitations

It agctualy reads like this:

FAR 91.319(c) states, "Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator

in special operating limitations, no person may operate an aircraft
that has an experimental certificate over a densely populated area or
in a congested airway. The Administrator may issue special operating
limitations for a particular aircraft to permit takeoffs and landings
to be conducted over a densely populated area or in a congested airway,

in accordance with terms and conditions specified in the authorization
in the interest of safety in air commerce."

I interpret this as the Administrator having the authority to allow you

to do this. Probably because some airports are so close to these areas

that you would not be able to get out of or land at the airport if the
ammendment was not issued??

On 11/8/2005 8:10 AM, sa@mwutah.com wrote to rebel-builders:

-> A few of has been talking off list about this, thought I would bring

-> it
on
-> list.
->
-> The FAR's (US) state something about experimental aircraft can't be
-> flown over densely populated areas. But we have also heard it
-> depends on your phase two operating limitation or something like
-> that. For you guys
already
-> flying what do your limitation read like? Is it consistent to NOT
-> have
the
-> restriction or does it depend on the examiner?
->
-> I've never heard of anyone not being able to fly anywhere a
-> certified aircraft does??
->
-> Thanks
-> Scott
-> Moose 174
->

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://www.dcsol.com/login username
"rebel" password "builder"
Subscription services located at:
https://www.dcsol.com/public/code/html-subscribe.htm
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://www.dcsol.com/login username
"rebel" password "builder"
Subscription services located at:
https://www.dcsol.com/public/code/html-subscribe.htm
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://www.dcsol.com/login username "rebel"
password "builder"
Subscription services located at:
https://www.dcsol.com/public/code/html-subscribe.htm
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://www.dcsol.com/login username "rebel"
password "builder"
Subscription services located at:
https://www.dcsol.com/public/code/html-subscribe.htm
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Wayne G. O'Shea · Post by **Wayne G. O'Shea** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:18 pm

Might be the Sikaflex brain fart syndrome...but what did that say in English
George???

)))))))

Think tomorrow I better use the fresh air system! (or the FAA needs to quit
writing in rhymes so people can follow the regs)

----- Original Message -----
From: "George Coy" <george@gesoco.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2005 2:20 PM
Subject: RE: Experimental operating limitations

As a DAR's, we are acting as a representative of the administrator. The
following letter from a FAA official that I know ought to set it straight:

Mr. Coy,

As a representative of the administrator, or sometimes when authorized, to
act as the administrator, a comprehensive investigation must be conducted

by

a team or teams of one person or several persons from this or several

other

agencys to ensure that you or several other pilots or person or persons

have

tried or attempted to try to comprehend or understand any or all, in whole
or in part of one or more that one of the many Federal Aviation

Regulations.

It is my duty as a representative of the administrator, or sometimes when
authorized, to act as the administrator, to ensure that any one pilot or
pilots or one person or persons that have or have appeared to have read

any

one, or more than one of the Federal Aviation Regulations and understood

any

one or more than one of the Federal Aviation Regulations, to initiate
appropriate action, which may include but not limited to an immediate
rewrite of the specific or multiple Federal Aviation Regulations, or

require

you, pilots or person or persons to attend remedial instruction, which may
include classroom instruction, of the Federal Aviation Regulations until
you, the pilots or person or persons have any understanding of how to
function so that this agency or other agencys will never receive such a
letter or letters from anyone.

At this time , appropriations are being requested to conduct a full
investigation in this matter and you will be notified by this

representative

of the administrator, or sometimes when authorized, to act as the
administrator. Ensure that you, the pilots, or person or persons are
available for an interview.

We are here to help you,

Acting Administrator

By the way, next time you see a FAA Ops or Maintenance person, ask him or
her "HOW IS IT GOING ON YOUR JOURNEY TO EXCELLENCE?"

George Coy
President
Gesoco Industries Inc.
629 Airport Rd.
Swanton, VT 05488
TEL 802-868-5633
FAX 802-868-4465
Web Site www.gesoco.com
e-mail George@gesoco.com
Franklin County Airport (KFSO)

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Mike Davis · Post by **Mike Davis** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:18 pm

I'm constantly amazed that this type of writing is supposed to make the
issure more clear... what a bunch of non-sense! I'd be surprised if we
didn't have at least 1 lawyer in a group of this many pilots, so to your
lawyers, I just want to say thanks... for making things so easy to read and
understand! ;-)

Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: "George Coy" <george@gesoco.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2005 10:20 AM
Subject: RE: Experimental operating limitations

As a DAR's, we are acting as a representative of the administrator. The
following letter from a FAA official that I know ought to set it straight:

Mr. Coy,

As a representative of the administrator, or sometimes when authorized, to
act as the administrator, a comprehensive investigation must be conducted
by
a team or teams of one person or several persons from this or several
other
agencys to ensure that you or several other pilots or person or persons
have
tried or attempted to try to comprehend or understand any or all, in whole
or in part of one or more that one of the many Federal Aviation
Regulations.
It is my duty as a representative of the administrator, or sometimes when
authorized, to act as the administrator, to ensure that any one pilot or
pilots or one person or persons that have or have appeared to have read
any
one, or more than one of the Federal Aviation Regulations and understood
any
one or more than one of the Federal Aviation Regulations, to initiate
appropriate action, which may include but not limited to an immediate
rewrite of the specific or multiple Federal Aviation Regulations, or
require
you, pilots or person or persons to attend remedial instruction, which may
include classroom instruction, of the Federal Aviation Regulations until
you, the pilots or person or persons have any understanding of how to
function so that this agency or other agencys will never receive such a
letter or letters from anyone.

At this time , appropriations are being requested to conduct a full
investigation in this matter and you will be notified by this
representative
of the administrator, or sometimes when authorized, to act as the
administrator. Ensure that you, the pilots, or person or persons are
available for an interview.

We are here to help you,

Acting Administrator

By the way, next time you see a FAA Ops or Maintenance person, ask him or
her "HOW IS IT GOING ON YOUR JOURNEY TO EXCELLENCE?"

George Coy
President
Gesoco Industries Inc.
629 Airport Rd.
Swanton, VT 05488
TEL 802-868-5633
FAX 802-868-4465
Web Site www.gesoco.com
e-mail George@gesoco.com
Franklin County Airport (KFSO)

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
pequeajim@dcsol.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2005 2:04 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: Experimental operating limitations

It agctualy reads like this:

FAR 91.319(c) states, "Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator in
special operating limitations, no person may operate an aircraft that has
an
experimental certificate over a densely populated area or in a congested
airway. The Administrator may issue special operating limitations for a
particular aircraft to permit takeoffs and landings to be conducted over a
densely populated area or in a congested airway, in accordance with terms
and
conditions specified in the authorization in the interest of safety in air
commerce."

I interpret this as the Administrator having the authority to allow you to
do
this. Probably because some airports are so close to these areas that you
would not be able to get out of or land at the airport if the ammendment
was
not issued??

On 11/8/2005 8:10 AM, sa@mwutah.com wrote to rebel-builders:

-> A few of has been talking off list about this, thought I would bring it
on
-> list.
->
-> The FAR's (US) state something about experimental aircraft can't be
flown
-> over densely populated areas. But we have also heard it depends on
your
-> phase two operating limitation or something like that. For you guys
already
-> flying what do your limitation read like? Is it consistent to NOT have
the
-> restriction or does it depend on the examiner?
->
-> I've never heard of anyone not being able to fly anywhere a certified
-> aircraft does??
->
-> Thanks
-> Scott
-> Moose 174
->

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://www.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Subscription services located at:
https://www.dcsol.com/public/code/html-subscribe.htm
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://www.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Subscription services located at:
https://www.dcsol.com/public/code/html-subscribe.htm
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

__________ NOD32 1.1280 (20051108) Information __________

This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
http://www.eset.com

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Bill Delcambre · Post by **Bill Delcambre** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:18 pm

When I began flying experimentals, I had a couple of conversations about
this with the folks in our control tower (LFT). They were very clear in that
they would take great efforts to allow me whatever departure or arrival
routes that I requested, but they would prefer that I accept prevailing
traffic routing. When I stressed this regulation, the reply was that these
folks aren't policemen of the airways and that they only want the safest ops
that they can provide. Put another way: if I went down in a ball of flames,
in a neighborhood, it would be my butt. Which makes a lot of sense.
Basically, you gotta fly where you gotta fly. Don't spend too much time
buzzing downtown Salt Lake City, though... :)
Bill

On 11/8/05, Scott Aldrich <sa@mwutah.com> wrote:

A few of has been talking off list about this, thought I would bring it on
list.

The FAR's (US) state something about experimental aircraft can't be flown
over densely populated areas. But we have also heard it depends on your
phase two operating limitation or something like that. For you guys
already
flying what do your limitation read like? Is it consistent to NOT have the
restriction or does it depend on the examiner?

I've never heard of anyone not being able to fly anywhere a certified
aircraft does??

Thanks
Scott
Moose 174

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://www.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Subscription services located at:
https://www.dcsol.com/public/code/html-subscribe.htm
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------