Rebel weight and balance

Ken · Post by **Ken** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:01 pm

I have been doing the weight and balance and note that both weight and
balance bulletins and my builder's manual show the fuel at 18" arm. The
Pilot Operating Manual shows it at 23" which is more in line with what I
measure it to be.

From what I can see there is no structural bagage weight limit anywhere
in the Rebel documentation??

The subaru came in a tad heavy but subtracting the lower fuel required
compared to an 0-320 it is still in the ball park.
With oil, glycol, leading edge STOL kit, die spring gear, dual ignition,
dual fuel injection, dual electric systems, vacuum system, paint, steel
tailspring, tail ground handle, 6 pack of instruments, com radio, ELT,
strobes and interior lighting, warp drive prop, spinner, muffler,
upholstered doors, rad and large duct under the fuselage with moveable
exit door, and moved back firewall - she's at 1040 lb and 9.06 c.of g.
If I get serious I can certainly take some weight out of the engine
later but it wasn't worth the effort at this point until I know I'm
happy with the installation.

That is accurate as it is from the 3 electronic scales that RAA members
(Canada) can borrow for $25. The scales were a bright spot of the build
process and much appreciated. They are boxed up (100 lbs) for shipping
around the country.

Ken

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Walter Klatt · Post by **Walter Klatt** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:01 pm

Congrats, Ken, that is a big step. I use 23" for my fuel. Can't
remember if you cut back your firewall, but with mine, I moved
the pax and pilot weights to 19" based on my rudder pedal and
seat positions. Not sure what you mean by "structural" baggage
weight limit, but mine was just based on gross weight and aft c
of g limits. That will vary with every airplane.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of Ken
Sent: Friday, October 21, 2005 6:10 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Rebel weight and balance

I have been doing the weight and balance and note that
both weight and
balance bulletins and my builder's manual show the
fuel at 18" arm. The
Pilot Operating Manual shows it at 23" which is more
in line with what I
measure it to be.

From what I can see there is no structural bagage
weight limit anywhere
in the Rebel documentation??

The subaru came in a tad heavy but subtracting the
lower fuel required
compared to an 0-320 it is still in the ball park.
With oil, glycol, leading edge STOL kit, die spring
gear, dual ignition,
dual fuel injection, dual electric systems, vacuum
system, paint, steel
tailspring, tail ground handle, 6 pack of instruments,
com radio, ELT,
strobes and interior lighting, warp drive prop,
spinner, muffler,
upholstered doors, rad and large duct under the
fuselage with moveable
exit door, and moved back firewall - she's at 1040 lb
and 9.06 c.of g.
If I get serious I can certainly take some weight out
of the engine
later but it wasn't worth the effort at this point
until I know I'm
happy with the installation.

That is accurate as it is from the 3 electronic scales
that RAA members
(Canada) can borrow for $25. The scales were a bright
spot of the build
process and much appreciated. They are boxed up (100
lbs) for shipping
around the country.

Ken

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Wayne G. O'Shea · Post by **Wayne G. O'Shea** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:01 pm

I just picked 43" as a datum for baggage calcs. Once you've placarded the
thing Ken and done the "typical use" calcs for your paperwork...you'll never
look at it again with that 9.06" empty location. Will take you more than 400
lbs of baggage and down to running out of fuel to go out the rear C of G
limit!

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Walter Klatt" <Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, October 21, 2005 10:10 AM
Subject: RE: Rebel weight and balance

Congrats, Ken, that is a big step. I use 23" for my fuel. Can't
remember if you cut back your firewall, but with mine, I moved
the pax and pilot weights to 19" based on my rudder pedal and
seat positions. Not sure what you mean by "structural" baggage
weight limit, but mine was just based on gross weight and aft c
of g limits. That will vary with every airplane.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of Ken
Sent: Friday, October 21, 2005 6:10 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Rebel weight and balance

I have been doing the weight and balance and note that
both weight and
balance bulletins and my builder's manual show the
fuel at 18" arm. The
Pilot Operating Manual shows it at 23" which is more
in line with what I
measure it to be.

From what I can see there is no structural bagage
weight limit anywhere
in the Rebel documentation??

The subaru came in a tad heavy but subtracting the
lower fuel required
compared to an 0-320 it is still in the ball park.
With oil, glycol, leading edge STOL kit, die spring
gear, dual ignition,
dual fuel injection, dual electric systems, vacuum
system, paint, steel
tailspring, tail ground handle, 6 pack of instruments,
com radio, ELT,
strobes and interior lighting, warp drive prop,
spinner, muffler,
upholstered doors, rad and large duct under the
fuselage with moveable
exit door, and moved back firewall - she's at 1040 lb
and 9.06 c.of g.
If I get serious I can certainly take some weight out
of the engine
later but it wasn't worth the effort at this point
until I know I'm
happy with the installation.

That is accurate as it is from the 3 electronic scales
that RAA members
(Canada) can borrow for $25. The scales were a bright
spot of the build
process and much appreciated. They are boxed up (100
lbs) for shipping
around the country.

Ken

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Bob Patterson · Post by **Bob Patterson** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:01 pm

Congrats Ken !

Getting close !! :-)

My fuel was calculated at 24". Sounds like you are very close to
where XWI was when it had the Subaru - think you're a bit lighter.
My C of G with the Lyc. is 8.1", so you should be ok at 9. Your Sub
weight sounds about right - I think they are usually in the 330 lb
range.

When you do come to fly it, I'd suggest just a bit over half tanks,
and about 50 - 80 lb. (maybe water softener salt, or just water), well
tied down in the baggage area, just to give you a middle range cg....

The baggage limit will be whatever the calcs show - there's no
limit structurally (she's pretty strong ! ) ;-) I think Tobey's
max. baggage placard read something like 370 lb !!

Hope to get down to Sebring, Florida next week, for the LSA Show,
but really watching the weather now ! Would have loved to go with an
LSA-legal 912 Rebel ..... maybe next year !
(Tampa with A/C this time!)

.......bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Friday 21 October 2005 09:09 am, Ken wrote:

I have been doing the weight and balance and note that both weight and
balance bulletins and my builder's manual show the fuel at 18" arm. The
Pilot Operating Manual shows it at 23" which is more in line with what I
measure it to be.

From what I can see there is no structural bagage weight limit anywhere
in the Rebel documentation??

The subaru came in a tad heavy but subtracting the lower fuel required
compared to an 0-320 it is still in the ball park.
With oil, glycol, leading edge STOL kit, die spring gear, dual ignition,
dual fuel injection, dual electric systems, vacuum system, paint, steel
tailspring, tail ground handle, 6 pack of instruments, com radio, ELT,
strobes and interior lighting, warp drive prop, spinner, muffler,
upholstered doors, rad and large duct under the fuselage with moveable
exit door, and moved back firewall - she's at 1040 lb and 9.06 c.of g.
If I get serious I can certainly take some weight out of the engine
later but it wasn't worth the effort at this point until I know I'm
happy with the installation.

That is accurate as it is from the 3 electronic scales that RAA members
(Canada) can borrow for $25. The scales were a bright spot of the build
process and much appreciated. They are boxed up (100 lbs) for shipping
around the country.

Ken

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Ken · Post by **Ken** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:02 pm

Hi Walter
Still a hundred things to do but it was a bonus to get the W&B done this
month. Yes I moved the firewall 3" and the seats 3" to get 18" for the
seats. Now that you mention it though my pedals are probably another
inch so I went out and did the teeter totter thing sitting on the seat
balanced on some boards. Should have taken a photo ;) Anyway 18" is
about right. The c of g of the seat with me sitting in it is farther
forward than I would have guessed.
thanks
Ken

Walter Klatt wrote:

Congrats, Ken, that is a big step. I use 23" for my fuel. Can't
remember if you cut back your firewall, but with mine, I moved
the pax and pilot weights to 19" based on my rudder pedal and
seat positions. Not sure what you mean by "structural" baggage
weight limit, but mine was just based on gross weight and aft c
of g limits. That will vary with every airplane.

Walter

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Ken · Post by **Ken** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:02 pm

Thanks for the input Bob and Wayne

Honest I did beef up the baggage floor back there with extra channels ;)

Interestingly on wheels the only way to get the weight up to the gross
that I'd like to ask for seems to be to show an overweight passenger.
Don't know if they will accept that. I'm using the 170 lb person number
from AC43.13 now. Someone mentioned that the 80 kg number converts to
175 lb and that's the one to use but so far I haven't found any mention
of that in the CARS or even where the 80kg number comes from.

thanks
Ken

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Wayne G. O'Shea · Post by **Wayne G. O'Shea** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:02 pm

How many 170 lb pilots do you know anymore. When you are doing your typical
use calculations they are just that. If you weight 200 and your wife 160
those are the numbers to use..or if your flying buddy is 225..fill it in.
Then you know where you are at in the real world.

You gettin close Ken!! Keep plugging away!

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken" <klehman@albedo.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2005 8:37 AM
Subject: Re: Rebel weight and balance

Thanks for the input Bob and Wayne

Honest I did beef up the baggage floor back there with extra channels ;)

Interestingly on wheels the only way to get the weight up to the gross
that I'd like to ask for seems to be to show an overweight passenger.
Don't know if they will accept that. I'm using the 170 lb person number
from AC43.13 now. Someone mentioned that the 80 kg number converts to
175 lb and that's the one to use but so far I haven't found any mention
of that in the CARS or even where the 80kg number comes from.

thanks
Ken

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pequeajim · Post by **pequeajim** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:02 pm

I haven't been 170 pounds since I was 15!

At 6'-3", my W&B is a little different than the "standard" FAA pilot!

Heaven help me if I take my 6'-7" son up with me!

On 10/22/2005 7:33 AM, oifa@irishfield.on.ca wrote to rebel-builders:

-> How many 170 lb pilots do you know anymore. When you are doing your typical
-> use calculations they are just that. If you weight 200 and your wife 160
-> those are the numbers to use..or if your flying buddy is 225..fill it in.
-> Then you know where you are at in the real world.
->
-> You gettin close Ken!! Keep plugging away!
->
-> Wayne
->

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Ken · Post by **Ken** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:02 pm

OK "typical use" (Wayne's term) implies that some common sense is
acceptable. I often find that somewhat lacking in government desk jockeys.

One more question if I may. I plan to just list the equipment included
as per the example in the RAA builders manual. I'll include a weight and
arm for easilly removed item like the fire extinguisher and ELT. They
aren't really going to insist on listing the weight and arm for each
instrument and piece of equipment listed as per the MD-RA forms are
they? I'm obviously not planning to take it apart and weigh each item
individually as the MD-RA form seems to want.

Sorry guys but I've obviously never seen a copy of a real weight and
balance for a homebuilt.

thanks
Ken

Wayne G. O'Shea wrote:

How many 170 lb pilots do you know anymore. When you are doing your

typical

use calculations they are just that. If you weight 200 and your wife 160
those are the numbers to use..or if your flying buddy is 225..fill

it in.

Then you know where you are at in the real world.

You gettin close Ken!! Keep plugging away!

Wayne

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Drew Dalgleish · Post by **Drew Dalgleish** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:02 pm

Hi Ken All I did was an empty weight and balance with a list of installed
equipment. You also need to do samples showing a most forward and most aft
configuration.

At 09:28 AM 10/23/2005 -0400, you wrote:

OK "typical use" (Wayne's term) implies that some common sense is
acceptable. I often find that somewhat lacking in government desk jockeys.

One more question if I may. I plan to just list the equipment included
as per the example in the RAA builders manual. I'll include a weight and
arm for easilly removed item like the fire extinguisher and ELT. They
aren't really going to insist on listing the weight and arm for each
instrument and piece of equipment listed as per the MD-RA forms are
they? I'm obviously not planning to take it apart and weigh each item
individually as the MD-RA form seems to want.

Sorry guys but I've obviously never seen a copy of a real weight and
balance for a homebuilt.

thanks
Ken

Drew

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Wayne G. O'Shea · Post by **Wayne G. O'Shea** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:02 pm

Ken...I'll dig up the paperwork and equipement list the way I used it doing
the engine change on my airplane and that TC was happy with. Give me a
bit...Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken" <klehman@albedo.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2005 9:28 AM
Subject: Re: Rebel weight and balance

OK "typical use" (Wayne's term) implies that some common sense is
acceptable. I often find that somewhat lacking in government desk jockeys.

One more question if I may. I plan to just list the equipment included
as per the example in the RAA builders manual. I'll include a weight and
arm for easilly removed item like the fire extinguisher and ELT. They
aren't really going to insist on listing the weight and arm for each
instrument and piece of equipment listed as per the MD-RA forms are
they? I'm obviously not planning to take it apart and weigh each item
individually as the MD-RA form seems to want.

Sorry guys but I've obviously never seen a copy of a real weight and
balance for a homebuilt.

thanks
Ken

Wayne G. O'Shea wrote:

How many 170 lb pilots do you know anymore. When you are doing your
typical
use calculations they are just that. If you weight 200 and your wife

160

those are the numbers to use..or if your flying buddy is 225..fill
it in.
Then you know where you are at in the real world.

You gettin close Ken!! Keep plugging away!

Wayne

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Ken · Post by **Ken** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:02 pm

Thanks Drew
Ken

Drew Dalgleish wrote:

Hi Ken All I did was an empty weight and balance with a list of installed
equipment. You also need to do samples showing a most forward and most aft
configuration.

At 09:28 AM 10/23/2005 -0400, you wrote:

OK "typical use" (Wayne's term) implies that some common sense is
acceptable. I often find that somewhat lacking in government desk jockeys.

One more question if I may. I plan to just list the equipment included
as per the example in the RAA builders manual. I'll include a weight and
arm for easilly removed item like the fire extinguisher and ELT. They
aren't really going to insist on listing the weight and arm for each
instrument and piece of equipment listed as per the MD-RA forms are
they? I'm obviously not planning to take it apart and weigh each item
individually as the MD-RA form seems to want.

Sorry guys but I've obviously never seen a copy of a real weight and
balance for a homebuilt.

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ray.mason · Post by **ray.mason** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:02 pm

Hi Ken

Sounds like you are almost in the air. Can you post some pics of your engine
install. Which Subie did you put in and did you do it yourseld or buy a FWF
package. Also what prop did you bolt on. Are you planning on floats in the
future.

Ray
Subie powered Rebel

On 10/21/2005 5:09 AM, klehman@albedo.net wrote to rebel-builders:

-> I have been doing the weight and balance and note that both weight and
-> balance bulletins and my builder's manual show the fuel at 18" arm. The
-> Pilot Operating Manual shows it at 23" which is more in line with what I
-> measure it to be.
->
-> From what I can see there is no structural bagage weight limit anywhere
-> in the Rebel documentation??
->
-> The subaru came in a tad heavy but subtracting the lower fuel required
-> compared to an 0-320 it is still in the ball park.
-> With oil, glycol, leading edge STOL kit, die spring gear, dual ignition,
-> dual fuel injection, dual electric systems, vacuum system, paint, steel
-> tailspring, tail ground handle, 6 pack of instruments, com radio, ELT,
-> strobes and interior lighting, warp drive prop, spinner, muffler,
-> upholstered doors, rad and large duct under the fuselage with moveable
-> exit door, and moved back firewall - she's at 1040 lb and 9.06 c.of g.
-> If I get serious I can certainly take some weight out of the engine
-> later but it wasn't worth the effort at this point until I know I'm
-> happy with the installation.
->
-> That is accurate as it is from the 3 electronic scales that RAA members
-> (Canada) can borrow for $25. The scales were a bright spot of the build
-> process and much appreciated. They are boxed up (100 lbs) for shipping
-> around the country.
->
-> Ken
->
->

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Bruce Georgen · Post by **Bruce Georgen** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:02 pm

Ken

Measure frome the wing leading edge (if this is your datum point? Some may use the axle center) to the center of the tank and use that number for W&B calculations.

Bruce G

________________________________________
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