Brake Master Cylinders - 2 pair

gargus · Post by **gargus** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:01 pm

Does anyone know how to plumb two sets of master brake cylinders so that either one can operate the brakes indeppendently of the other?

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Wayne G. O'Shea · Post by **Wayne G. O'Shea** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:01 pm

Just hook then in series...ie reservoir into one set, out the bottom of
those to the top of the second set and out the bottom of that set to the
wheel calipers. That simple!

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: <gargus@adelphia.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2005 8:31 AM
Subject: Brake Master Cylinders - 2 pair

Does anyone know how to plumb two sets of master brake cylinders so that

either one can operate the brakes indeppendently of the other?

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George Coy · Post by **George Coy** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:01 pm

Wayne, They will not be independent that way. The second set will block the
first set if they are actuated. If you want true independence they need to
be in parallel.

George Coy
President
Gesoco Industries Inc.
629 Airport Rd.
Swanton, VT 05488
TEL 802-868-5633
FAX 802-868-4465
Web Site www.gesoco.com
e-mail George@gesoco.com
Franklin County Airport (KFSO)

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Wayne G. O'Shea
Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2005 10:16 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Brake Master Cylinders - 2 pair

Just hook then in series...ie reservoir into one set, out the bottom of
those to the top of the second set and out the bottom of that set to the
wheel calipers. That simple!

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: <gargus@adelphia.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2005 8:31 AM
Subject: Brake Master Cylinders - 2 pair

Does anyone know how to plumb two sets of master brake cylinders so that

either one can operate the brakes indeppendently of the other?

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Fred Messinger \(fredm\) · Post by **Fred Messinger \(fredm\)** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:01 pm

Right....Parallel with check valves.

Fred

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
George Coy
Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2005 11:49 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: Brake Master Cylinders - 2 pair

Wayne, They will not be independent that way. The second set will block
the first set if they are actuated. If you want true independence they
need to be in parallel.

George Coy
President
Gesoco Industries Inc.
629 Airport Rd.
Swanton, VT 05488
TEL 802-868-5633
FAX 802-868-4465
Web Site www.gesoco.com
e-mail George@gesoco.com
Franklin County Airport (KFSO)

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Wayne G. O'Shea
Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2005 10:16 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Brake Master Cylinders - 2 pair

Just hook then in series...ie reservoir into one set, out the bottom of
those to the top of the second set and out the bottom of that set to the
wheel calipers. That simple!

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: <gargus@adelphia.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2005 8:31 AM
Subject: Brake Master Cylinders - 2 pair

Does anyone know how to plumb two sets of master brake cylinders so
that

either one can operate the brakes indeppendently of the other?

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Wayne G. O'Shea · Post by **Wayne G. O'Shea** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:01 pm

Yes if the guy that is >NOT< supposed to be flying has the set of pedals
before the wheel calipers depressed even slightly he will lock out the guy
on the other set of pedals. Other than that the Matco's will work in series
as when fully extended they open a needle valve that allows them to be kept
full of fluid, unlike some certified stuff out there that need to be topped
constantly to keep full brake pressure (Like PA-18's). This needle being
open will allow the pressure from the first set of pedals to pass thru the
second set and put the brakes on, but not if someone pushes the other set of
pedals. Guess it could catch an instructor by surprise when he thinks he has
taken over control!

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "George Coy" <george@gesoco.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2005 11:49 AM
Subject: RE: Brake Master Cylinders - 2 pair

Wayne, They will not be independent that way. The second set will block

the

first set if they are actuated. If you want true independence they need to
be in parallel.

George Coy
President
Gesoco Industries Inc.
629 Airport Rd.
Swanton, VT 05488
TEL 802-868-5633
FAX 802-868-4465
Web Site www.gesoco.com
e-mail George@gesoco.com
Franklin County Airport (KFSO)

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Wayne G. O'Shea
Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2005 10:16 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Brake Master Cylinders - 2 pair

Just hook then in series...ie reservoir into one set, out the bottom of
those to the top of the second set and out the bottom of that set to the
wheel calipers. That simple!

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: <gargus@adelphia.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2005 8:31 AM
Subject: Brake Master Cylinders - 2 pair

Does anyone know how to plumb two sets of master brake cylinders so that
either one can operate the brakes indeppendently of the other?

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gargus · Post by **gargus** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:01 pm

Simple. elegant. Easy. I say "Ah, dat's right." and slap my forehead.
Now I am starting to have another problem - my forhead is indented.

I tried them in parallel not thinking about a check valve and sure enough
they do not work. Did not know where to get check valves, so I like
your solution (one person should be flying the plane at a time) and
in my situation will work perfectly fine. For the other comments I
appreciate the information.

---- "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca> wrote:

Just hook then in series...ie reservoir into one set, out the bottom of
those to the top of the second set and out the bottom of that set to the
wheel calipers. That simple!

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: <gargus@adelphia.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2005 8:31 AM
Subject: Brake Master Cylinders - 2 pair

Does anyone know how to plumb two sets of master brake cylinders so that
either one can operate the brakes indeppendently of the other?

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Wayne G. O'Shea · Post by **Wayne G. O'Shea** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:01 pm

Like I said....not probably great in an instructional environment! Make sure
the set of cylinders before the wheel caliper is the set that is used 99% of
the time. Not sure how long the shaft O-ring lasts with constant use of the
upstream set....and as always proceed at your own risk...

----- Original Message -----
From: <gargus@adelphia.net>
To: <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
Cc: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, October 14, 2005 8:22 AM
Subject: Re: Brake Master Cylinders - 2 pair

Simple. elegant. Easy. I say "Ah, dat's right." and slap my forehead.
Now I am starting to have another problem - my forhead is indented.

I tried them in parallel not thinking about a check valve and sure enough
they do not work. Did not know where to get check valves, so I like
your solution (one person should be flying the plane at a time) and
in my situation will work perfectly fine. For the other comments I
appreciate the information.

---- "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca> wrote:
Just hook then in series...ie reservoir into one set, out the bottom of
those to the top of the second set and out the bottom of that set to the
wheel calipers. That simple!

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: <gargus@adelphia.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2005 8:31 AM
Subject: Brake Master Cylinders - 2 pair

Does anyone know how to plumb two sets of master brake cylinders so

that

either one can operate the brakes indeppendently of the other?

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Ken · Post by **Ken** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:01 pm

Some cylinders like the ones in Spruce for a Pitts are advertised as
suitable for series operation. Presumably they have no problem with the
shaft O-ring although I also doubt that is really much of an issue
anyway. I believe I have a set of those and it looks like even those
still lock out the other side immediately when depressed.

I don't think there is a perfect solution to this as sometimes it is
nice to be able to lock out the other set of brakes and sometimes not.
But another concern can be trying to get the other person to release the
brakes (and quickly). That would take some kind of left/right selector
valve. Or a hand brake where you could slap the student's hand away. But
it's difficult to apply say left brake only with a hand brake. Hmmm
maybe a taser wired to the other brake pedals would do it ... ;)

Ken

Wayne G. O'Shea wrote:

Like I said....not probably great in an instructional environment! Make sure
the set of cylinders before the wheel caliper is the set that is used 99% of
the time. Not sure how long the shaft O-ring lasts with constant use of the
upstream set....and as always proceed at your own risk...

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lawsondj · Post by **lawsondj** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:01 pm

I really would like to consider operating the brake cylinders in parallel for student/insructor purposes. Does anyone know where to get the required check valves. These valves (4 req'd) have to hold off several hundred psi.

Thanks for a reply
Jack Joos, SR193

-------------- Original message --------------

Like I said....not probably great in an instructional environment! Make sure
the set of cylinders before the wheel caliper is the set that is used 99% of
the time. Not sure how long the shaft O-ring lasts with constant use of the
upstream set....and as always proceed at your own risk...

----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Cc:
Sent: Friday, October 14, 2005 8:22 AM
Subject: Re: Brake Master Cylinders - 2 pair

Simple. elegant. Easy. I say "Ah, dat's right." and slap my forehead.
Now I am starting to have another problem - my forhead is indented.

I tried them in parallel not thinking about a check valve and sure enough
they do not work. Did not know where to get check valves, so I like
your solution (one person should be flying the plane at a time) and
in my situation will work perfectly fine. For the other comments I
appreciate the information.

---- "Wayne G. O'Shea" wrote:
Just hook then in series...ie reservoir into one set, out the bottom of
those to the top of the second set and out the bottom of that set to the
wheel calipers. That simple!

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2005 8:31 AM
Subject: Brake Master Cylinders - 2 pair

that
either one can operate the brakes indeppendently of the other?

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Ken · Post by **Ken** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:01 pm

Hi Jack
No I don't but out of curiosity how would you plumb them. Off the top of
my head I don't see how 4 check valves will work. Maybe on the inlets to
the cylinder if they will open under very little pressure but then it
will be difficult to bleed the system. Most guys seem to use a
mechanical system to link the brake pedals to one cylinder on the Rebel.
Ken

lawsondj@comcast.net wrote:

I really would like to consider operating the brake cylinders in parallel for student/insructor purposes. Does anyone know where to get the required check valves. These valves (4 req'd) have to hold off several hundred psi.

Thanks for a reply
Jack Joos, SR193

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Gary Gustafson · Post by **Gary Gustafson** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:01 pm

I gave up trying to figure out where to put them and how to use them,
let alone find a supplier. I assume one set of brake pads.
If they are on the output side, once the brakes are set the brakes
will stay locked.
If they are on the intake side, both pedals become slower acting, but
this has the best chance for success.
If the brakes are in series, the down stream set dominates, and the up
stream pedals are useless. This is my approach.
After asking around I was not able to find check valves.
I was able to see a Rebel that had a mechanical system but plane is in
Maine now.

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Ken
Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2005 4:31 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Brake Master Cylinders - 2 pair

Hi Jack
No I don't but out of curiosity how would you plumb them. Off the top of
my head I don't see how 4 check valves will work. Maybe on the inlets to
the cylinder if they will open under very little pressure but then it
will be difficult to bleed the system. Most guys seem to use a
mechanical system to link the brake pedals to one cylinder on the Rebel.
Ken

lawsondj@comcast.net wrote:

I really would like to consider operating the brake cylinders in parallel

for student/insructor purposes. Does anyone know where to get the required
check valves. These valves (4 req'd) have to hold off several hundred psi.

Thanks for a reply
Jack Joos, SR193

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Drew Dalgleish · Post by **Drew Dalgleish** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:01 pm

At 05:30 PM 10/20/2005 +0000, you wrote:

I really would like to consider operating the brake cylinders in parallel

for student/insructor purposes. Does anyone know where to get the required
check valves. These valves (4 req'd) have to hold off several hundred psi.

Thanks for a reply
Jack Joos, SR193

I bought new check valves for my float pump at hose headquarters in london.
Any decent hydraulic supplier should have them in stock. Like others have
said I don't understand how it works. Maybe the easiest way would be to get
a complete setup from a wrecked cessna or have a good look at one to see
how it's plumbed.
Drew

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Dale Fultz · Post by **Dale Fultz** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:01 pm

You can't put a check valve in the line after the master cylinder (well you
can) but it won't work the check valve if working properly won't let the
pressure away from the brakes and will work like a parking brake. Yesterday
I posted a link showing the plumbing I guess I should have put it under this
heading instead. Dale SR-033

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Mike Rapoport · Post by **Mike Rapoport** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:01 pm

I have a Mitsubishi airplane that has a "mixer valve" downstream of the
master cylinders. Whichever master cylinder is producing higher pressure is
routed to the caliper. You could probably find one in a salvage yard. I
also have a H295 Helio Courier and the resevoir is plumbed to the co-pilot
master cylinders then the output of the copilot MCs goes to the inlet of the
pilots MCs then to the caliper. There are no check valves. I anticipate
that the brakes on the copilot side will be used less than 1% of the time so
I will use the standard setup. It works and I already have the parts!

Mike
Moose #241

----- Original Message -----
From: "Drew Dalgleish" <drewjan@cabletv.on.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, October 21, 2005 5:45 AM
Subject: Re: Brake Master Cylinders - 2 pair

At 05:30 PM 10/20/2005 +0000, you wrote:
I really would like to consider operating the brake cylinders in parallel
for student/insructor purposes. Does anyone know where to get the required
check valves. These valves (4 req'd) have to hold off several hundred psi.
Thanks for a reply
Jack Joos, SR193
I bought new check valves for my float pump at hose headquarters in
london.
Any decent hydraulic supplier should have them in stock. Like others have
said I don't understand how it works. Maybe the easiest way would be to
get
a complete setup from a wrecked cessna or have a good look at one to see
how it's plumbed.
Drew

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Mike Kimball · Post by **Mike Kimball** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:01 pm

I wonder if there is enough room to install the Super Rebel system in the
Rebel. One set of brake cylinders on the pilot side and the co-pilot side
mechanically connected to the pilot side. As a flight instructor, I have
only once had a problem with a student when I said, "I've got the airplane."
He wouldn't let go when the airplane entered a spin after mucking up an
approach to landing stall. Had to jab him in the ribs. All my students
except for that one time knew that "I've got the airplane" means hands and
feet off the controls.

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Gary
Gustafson
Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2005 2:10 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: Brake Master Cylinders - 2 pair

I gave up trying to figure out where to put them and how to use them,
let alone find a supplier. I assume one set of brake pads.
If they are on the output side, once the brakes are set the brakes
will stay locked.
If they are on the intake side, both pedals become slower acting, but
this has the best chance for success.
If the brakes are in series, the down stream set dominates, and the up
stream pedals are useless. This is my approach.
After asking around I was not able to find check valves.
I was able to see a Rebel that had a mechanical system but plane is in
Maine now.

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Ken
Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2005 4:31 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Brake Master Cylinders - 2 pair

Hi Jack
No I don't but out of curiosity how would you plumb them. Off the top of
my head I don't see how 4 check valves will work. Maybe on the inlets to
the cylinder if they will open under very little pressure but then it
will be difficult to bleed the system. Most guys seem to use a
mechanical system to link the brake pedals to one cylinder on the Rebel.
Ken

lawsondj@comcast.net wrote:

I really would like to consider operating the brake cylinders in parallel

for student/insructor purposes. Does anyone know where to get the required
check valves. These valves (4 req'd) have to hold off several hundred psi.

Thanks for a reply
Jack Joos, SR193

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