Moose -Alaska crash ...

[Bob Patterson]

Hi All !

This subject came up at the Builders Meeting. I reported that
I had heard from someone who spoke to the people who were on the scene and
involved - not exactly first-hand info, but I believe it to be accurate ....

Don't want to spread even more rumours than we've already
heard, but this info might save someone from misfortune ! Please,
if there's anyone out there with experience with this problem,
please speak up !!

What they said was " It seems the M-T 3 blade prop went into
full Beta pitch (reverse !!) at 500 feet on approach -- AND, this
is not the first time this problem has been observed with the M-T
3 blade on the M-14P engine. Seems there's something to do with
the power pulses of the M-14 that messes up the prop controls."

I know there are thousands of these props out there, many
on M-14's -- but how many have Beta capability ?? From the pictures,
it sure looked like that Moose hit hard - and that would explain it !
About the only thing you could do would be to cut the engine and push
the nose down - IF you figured out what was happening quickly enough,
AND you had some extra altitude ! Full Beta would take airspeed, and
give tremendous drag, preventing acceleration, even lowering the nose.
Fortunately, the airframe did what it was designed to do, and crumpled
progressively, and everyone walked away without a scratch !

Again, I'm not passing this on to stir things up - but I'm sure
anyone with an M-T with Beta would really like to hear from any others who
might have had any kind of difficulty like this ! I hope there's some
easy fix !

......bobp




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[N.Smith]

Hi Bob

Thanks for the heads up.

I'm planning on fitting a 3 blade MTV-6 prop on my Elite.

As far as I'm aware, all MT props are Beta capable - but you must fit the
reverser governor that MT provide to enable this feature.

To get reverse you need an electric circuit to be activated, and the
governor will then only go into beta when the throttle is in a low idle
position.

Details and diagrams at :
http://www.mt-propeller.com/en/reverse.htm

I would presume that a governor failure would BETA all blades, and a single
blade BETA would be the result of a prop failure ?

Either way..glad no one was hurt.

Nigel
745E

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of Bob
Patterson
Sent: 19 September 2005 19:36
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Moose -Alaska crash ...



Hi All !

This subject came up at the Builders Meeting. I reported that
I had heard from someone who spoke to the people who were on the scene and
involved - not exactly first-hand info, but I believe it to be accurate ....

Don't want to spread even more rumours than we've already
heard, but this info might save someone from misfortune ! Please,
if there's anyone out there with experience with this problem,
please speak up !!

What they said was " It seems the M-T 3 blade prop went into
full Beta pitch (reverse !!) at 500 feet on approach -- AND, this
is not the first time this problem has been observed with the M-T
3 blade on the M-14P engine. Seems there's something to do with
the power pulses of the M-14 that messes up the prop controls."

I know there are thousands of these props out there, many
on M-14's -- but how many have Beta capability ?? From the pictures,
it sure looked like that Moose hit hard - and that would explain it !
About the only thing you could do would be to cut the engine and push
the nose down - IF you figured out what was happening quickly enough,
AND you had some extra altitude ! Full Beta would take airspeed, and
give tremendous drag, preventing acceleration, even lowering the nose.
Fortunately, the airframe did what it was designed to do, and crumpled
progressively, and everyone walked away without a scratch !

Again, I'm not passing this on to stir things up - but I'm sure
anyone with an M-T with Beta would really like to hear from any others who
might have had any kind of difficulty like this ! I hope there's some
easy fix !

......bobp




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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

It's not rumour Bob. I talked with Stewart B...(Steve Rhodes used Stewarts
paint booth for his near complete Moose) and YES the MT went into full beta.
They figured it out on approach and pulled the power...but couldnt' make the
field.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Patterson" <beep@sympatico.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 2:36 PM
Subject: Moose -Alaska crash ...

Hi All !

This subject came up at the Builders Meeting. I reported that
I had heard from someone who spoke to the people who were on the scene and
involved - not exactly first-hand info, but I believe it to be accurate

....

Don't want to spread even more rumours than we've already
heard, but this info might save someone from misfortune ! Please,
if there's anyone out there with experience with this problem,
please speak up !!

What they said was " It seems the M-T 3 blade prop went into
full Beta pitch (reverse !!) at 500 feet on approach -- AND, this
is not the first time this problem has been observed with the M-T
3 blade on the M-14P engine. Seems there's something to do with
the power pulses of the M-14 that messes up the prop controls."

I know there are thousands of these props out there, many
on M-14's -- but how many have Beta capability ?? From the pictures,
it sure looked like that Moose hit hard - and that would explain it !
About the only thing you could do would be to cut the engine and push
the nose down - IF you figured out what was happening quickly enough,
AND you had some extra altitude ! Full Beta would take airspeed, and
give tremendous drag, preventing acceleration, even lowering the nose.
Fortunately, the airframe did what it was designed to do, and crumpled
progressively, and everyone walked away without a scratch !

Again, I'm not passing this on to stir things up - but I'm sure
anyone with an M-T with Beta would really like to hear from any others who
might have had any kind of difficulty like this ! I hope there's some
easy fix !

......bobp




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[Scott Aldrich]

I am curious how "they" came up with the conclusion that power pulses from
the M14 is causing MT props to go into reverse? What are they basing this
on? Who else has had one go into reverse? What were the results of the
"other M14's" that went into reverse? Are they just generalizing or do they
have some facts? I know nothing is factual on Les's yet but the prelim NTSB
is posted.

I know Don and Randy wanted to talk to Les but he seems to have gone
underground, both email and phone are no longer valid.

Scott
Moose 174
M14P V-530

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Bob
Patterson
Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 12:36 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Moose -Alaska crash ...


Hi All !

This subject came up at the Builders Meeting. I reported that
I had heard from someone who spoke to the people who were on the scene and
involved - not exactly first-hand info, but I believe it to be accurate ....

Don't want to spread even more rumours than we've already
heard, but this info might save someone from misfortune ! Please,
if there's anyone out there with experience with this problem,
please speak up !!

What they said was " It seems the M-T 3 blade prop went into
full Beta pitch (reverse !!) at 500 feet on approach -- AND, this
is not the first time this problem has been observed with the M-T
3 blade on the M-14P engine. Seems there's something to do with
the power pulses of the M-14 that messes up the prop controls."

I know there are thousands of these props out there, many
on M-14's -- but how many have Beta capability ?? From the pictures,
it sure looked like that Moose hit hard - and that would explain it !
About the only thing you could do would be to cut the engine and push
the nose down - IF you figured out what was happening quickly enough,
AND you had some extra altitude ! Full Beta would take airspeed, and
give tremendous drag, preventing acceleration, even lowering the nose.
Fortunately, the airframe did what it was designed to do, and crumpled
progressively, and everyone walked away without a scratch !

Again, I'm not passing this on to stir things up - but I'm sure
anyone with an M-T with Beta would really like to hear from any others who
might have had any kind of difficulty like this ! I hope there's some
easy fix !

......bobp




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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

I don't know about the "power pulses" Scott...but here is what I got 2nd
hand from my contact in Anchorage.
.......
An airline pilot crashed his Moose a few weeks ago on final into Merrill
Field here in Anchorage. I'll try to forward the newspaper link so you can
read the story. According to my friends, the MT reversing prop went into
beta uncommanded. The guy added power instinctively when it happened, and
had the good sense to pull power when power made the problem worse. They hit
hard, and survived in very good shape. Paul was at Merrill when it happened,
and was on-scene very quickly. The only scary thing that happened was the
fuel tanks ruptured, and gas was pouing out. Apparently he had it insured
for $200K. If insurance pays it off, he'll have Paul build him another one.
These guys are pretty darn good builders. If you ever get the urge to visit
Anchorage, give a shout. I can scrounge up some room and some entertainment
plans, and you can hang with some dyed-in-the-wool Murphy guys. And these
boys can fly, too.

Pictures when I can get them.
....

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Aldrich" <sa@mwutah.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Cc: "Kevin Kimball" <KJKimball@aol.com>
Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 7:52 PM
Subject: RE: Moose -Alaska crash ...

I am curious how "they" came up with the conclusion that power pulses from
the M14 is causing MT props to go into reverse? What are they basing this
on? Who else has had one go into reverse? What were the results of the
"other M14's" that went into reverse? Are they just generalizing or do

they

have some facts? I know nothing is factual on Les's yet but the prelim

NTSB

is posted.

I know Don and Randy wanted to talk to Les but he seems to have gone
underground, both email and phone are no longer valid.

Scott
Moose 174
M14P V-530

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Bob
Patterson
Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 12:36 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Moose -Alaska crash ...


Hi All !

This subject came up at the Builders Meeting. I reported that
I had heard from someone who spoke to the people who were on the scene and
involved - not exactly first-hand info, but I believe it to be accurate

....

Don't want to spread even more rumours than we've already
heard, but this info might save someone from misfortune ! Please,
if there's anyone out there with experience with this problem,
please speak up !!

What they said was " It seems the M-T 3 blade prop went into
full Beta pitch (reverse !!) at 500 feet on approach -- AND, this
is not the first time this problem has been observed with the M-T
3 blade on the M-14P engine. Seems there's something to do with
the power pulses of the M-14 that messes up the prop controls."

I know there are thousands of these props out there, many
on M-14's -- but how many have Beta capability ?? From the pictures,
it sure looked like that Moose hit hard - and that would explain it !
About the only thing you could do would be to cut the engine and push
the nose down - IF you figured out what was happening quickly enough,
AND you had some extra altitude ! Full Beta would take airspeed, and
give tremendous drag, preventing acceleration, even lowering the nose.
Fortunately, the airframe did what it was designed to do, and crumpled
progressively, and everyone walked away without a scratch !

Again, I'm not passing this on to stir things up - but I'm sure
anyone with an M-T with Beta would really like to hear from any others who
might have had any kind of difficulty like this ! I hope there's some
easy fix !

......bobp




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[Scott Aldrich]

Thanks Wayne, I was in Anchorage that day hanging out with Steve Rhodes.
I wouldn't think Paul would toss out the impulse theory with nothing to back
it up. I know he was playing with the solenoid to see if it had a problem
and the NTSB took the prop governor. Les's setup was the type that required
the guarded switch to be flipped first and he did have the airspeed safety
switch installed.

I am mostly curious about what "others" had problems with their MT's or if
this is just hearsay.

Anybody else on the list have the MT with Beta other than Don and Randy?

Scott
Moose 174

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Wayne
G. O'Shea
Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 6:03 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Moose -Alaska crash ...

I don't know about the "power pulses" Scott...but here is what I got 2nd
hand from my contact in Anchorage.
.......
An airline pilot crashed his Moose a few weeks ago on final into Merrill
Field here in Anchorage. I'll try to forward the newspaper link so you can
read the story. According to my friends, the MT reversing prop went into
beta uncommanded. The guy added power instinctively when it happened, and
had the good sense to pull power when power made the problem worse. They hit
hard, and survived in very good shape. Paul was at Merrill when it happened,
and was on-scene very quickly. The only scary thing that happened was the
fuel tanks ruptured, and gas was pouing out. Apparently he had it insured
for $200K. If insurance pays it off, he'll have Paul build him another one.
These guys are pretty darn good builders. If you ever get the urge to visit
Anchorage, give a shout. I can scrounge up some room and some entertainment
plans, and you can hang with some dyed-in-the-wool Murphy guys. And these
boys can fly, too.

Pictures when I can get them.
....

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Aldrich" <sa@mwutah.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Cc: "Kevin Kimball" <KJKimball@aol.com>
Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 7:52 PM
Subject: RE: Moose -Alaska crash ...

I am curious how "they" came up with the conclusion that power pulses from
the M14 is causing MT props to go into reverse? What are they basing this
on? Who else has had one go into reverse? What were the results of the
"other M14's" that went into reverse? Are they just generalizing or do

they

have some facts? I know nothing is factual on Les's yet but the prelim

NTSB

is posted.

I know Don and Randy wanted to talk to Les but he seems to have gone
underground, both email and phone are no longer valid.

Scott
Moose 174
M14P V-530

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Bob
Patterson
Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 12:36 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Moose -Alaska crash ...


Hi All !

This subject came up at the Builders Meeting. I reported that
I had heard from someone who spoke to the people who were on the scene and
involved - not exactly first-hand info, but I believe it to be accurate

....

Don't want to spread even more rumours than we've already
heard, but this info might save someone from misfortune ! Please,
if there's anyone out there with experience with this problem,
please speak up !!

What they said was " It seems the M-T 3 blade prop went into
full Beta pitch (reverse !!) at 500 feet on approach -- AND, this
is not the first time this problem has been observed with the M-T
3 blade on the M-14P engine. Seems there's something to do with
the power pulses of the M-14 that messes up the prop controls."

I know there are thousands of these props out there, many
on M-14's -- but how many have Beta capability ?? From the pictures,
it sure looked like that Moose hit hard - and that would explain it !
About the only thing you could do would be to cut the engine and push
the nose down - IF you figured out what was happening quickly enough,
AND you had some extra altitude ! Full Beta would take airspeed, and
give tremendous drag, preventing acceleration, even lowering the nose.
Fortunately, the airframe did what it was designed to do, and crumpled
progressively, and everyone walked away without a scratch !

Again, I'm not passing this on to stir things up - but I'm sure
anyone with an M-T with Beta would really like to hear from any others who
might have had any kind of difficulty like this ! I hope there's some
easy fix !

......bobp




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[Bob Patterson]

Hi Nigel !

Thanks for the useful info ! Your conclusion seems very reasonable -
as you say, the problem would seem to be in the governor.

I recall Robin saying he had encountered similar problems with the
M-T governor on a Moose he was flying in - fortunately, it was on the water
at the time, and he got it back in for servicing....

It <was> just a heads up - glad you took it that way !
I'm certainly not 'knocking' the M-T or its governor --- it's just that
there might be something there to look at. I know one Moose builder
who specifically refused Beta for his Moose, as he "wanted to keep it
simple" - nothing wrong with that. :-)

As Dr. Robert Rohm, one of our seminar speakers, often says:
"You can't BEWARE of something you aren't AWARE of first !"
Just trying to help ! :-)

......bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Monday 19 September 2005 03:16 pm, N.Smith wrote:

Hi Bob

Thanks for the heads up.

I'm planning on fitting a 3 blade MTV-6 prop on my Elite.

As far as I'm aware, all MT props are Beta capable - but you must fit the
reverser governor that MT provide to enable this feature.

To get reverse you need an electric circuit to be activated, and the
governor will then only go into beta when the throttle is in a low idle
position.

Details and diagrams at :
http://www.mt-propeller.com/en/reverse.htm

I would presume that a governor failure would BETA all blades, and a

single

blade BETA would be the result of a prop failure ?

Either way..glad no one was hurt.

Nigel
745E

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