I am working on Rebel 300. The fuselage was done when I got it and the
right wing was started. I am just about ready to Proseal the tank. I
remember a couple people suggesting that an 8:1 mix was better than 10:1
- any strong opinions about that? I plan to use a cake decorating bag
to hold the mix and squeeze it out as I go. I'll use tongue depressors
to fillet it into the corners and dip each tank rivet. I plan to keep
the temperature about 75 degrees F in the garage. Any other thoughts or
comments are appreciated. Gosh, I can't wait to fly this thing.
--
Best Regards,
Scott Hibbs
hibbs@pacifier.com
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Just an update and small question on Proseal
-
Charles Bailey
Just an update and small question on Proseal
Scott,
I used a small sandwich bag or Ziploc and cut the corner after pitting the
proseal in, use a rubber band to tie the top off. worked for me.
Chuck Bailey 176R
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Hibbs" <hibbs@pacifier.com>
To: "Murphy Rebel Builders List" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, March 13, 2000 6:54 AM
Subject: Just an update and small question on Proseal
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I used a small sandwich bag or Ziploc and cut the corner after pitting the
proseal in, use a rubber band to tie the top off. worked for me.
Chuck Bailey 176R
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Hibbs" <hibbs@pacifier.com>
To: "Murphy Rebel Builders List" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, March 13, 2000 6:54 AM
Subject: Just an update and small question on Proseal
*----------------------------------------------------*I am working on Rebel 300. The fuselage was done when I got it and the
right wing was started. I am just about ready to Proseal the tank. I
remember a couple people suggesting that an 8:1 mix was better than 10:1
- any strong opinions about that? I plan to use a cake decorating bag
to hold the mix and squeeze it out as I go. I'll use tongue depressors
to fillet it into the corners and dip each tank rivet. I plan to keep
the temperature about 75 degrees F in the garage. Any other thoughts or
comments are appreciated. Gosh, I can't wait to fly this thing.
--
Best Regards,
Scott Hibbs
hibbs@pacifier.com
*----------------------------------------------------*
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between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/lists/default.htm
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-
Wayne G. O'Shea
Just an update and small question on Proseal
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your following message has been delivered to the 149 members of
the list murphy-rebel@dcsol.com at 12:48:25 on 13 Mar 2000.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Scott, do yourself a favour and follow the instructions on the Proseal
information! Mixed 10 to 1 by WEIGHT!
(8.?? to 1 by volume). It is impossible to do by volume so use a digital
scale and do by weight. Do not guess mix Proseal or it will harden before
you can use it OR will not harden at all.
Buy boxes of 100 or so latex gloves (around $11CDN) and wear two pairs to
start. Then when they are too messed up to work with peel the top glove off
and put on another one. This way your hands stay clean, as Proseal can take
weeks to get off your hands!
As for application. The best way to mix (in my opinion for what it's worth),
is to place a small 5" x 7" rectangular piece of .020 aluminum on your scale
and "tare" out so scale reads zero. Then scoop say 100 grams of Proseal out
of the can with a putty knife and 10 grams of catalyst with a Popsicle
stick. Using another 1' wide putty knife (so you don't contaminate your
scooper) mix in a swirling motion at first and then scrape and mix until it
is a consistent Grey/black colour with no streaks!
As for application I just use the putty knife to "butter" the ribs, rear
spar and the tank skin both sides at the main spar seam. Prior to placing or
prosealing the tank skin put clecos at each rib flanges end holes. These
will help you locate the skin and also hold the skin up off the ribs until
you find the holes.(therefore the proseal doesn't get smeared out of place).
Cleco down, dip and place rivets, pull them and get the wing flipped over to
fillet all the seams with the ooozz out before it hardens (using a popscicle
stick, I found tongue depressors are too wide/ too large a radius!). Don't
worry about getting everything sealed up, just make sure you smooth out what
is there first. You can add a layer overtop around the seams later, when you
are installing the stringer fillers.
Using the aluminum sheet lets you scrape up the last drop of Proseal!!!
Using a bag, can or any other item wastes good, EXPENSIVE Proseal!
The worst part is thinking about mixing Proseal up, it still bothers me
after 11 wings!! Once you have it mixed, you don't have time to let it
bother you and oh yah, if you have people that just drop by from time to
time and want to talk! This is not the time!!!! Lock the shop door and don't
let them in. Make sure you have good ventalation or a fresh air hood on when
using the stuff and the cooler the shop is, the longer you will have to get
the job done before it starts to get tacky.
Just my 2 cents and they are only Canadian!!!!
Yes you WILL love flying this thing!!
Blue skies,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca
-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Hibbs <hibbs@pacifier.com>
To: Murphy Rebel Builders List <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Date: Monday, March 13, 2000 9:52 AM
Subject: Just an update and small question on Proseal
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between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
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Your following message has been delivered to the 149 members of
the list murphy-rebel@dcsol.com at 12:48:25 on 13 Mar 2000.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Scott, do yourself a favour and follow the instructions on the Proseal
information! Mixed 10 to 1 by WEIGHT!
(8.?? to 1 by volume). It is impossible to do by volume so use a digital
scale and do by weight. Do not guess mix Proseal or it will harden before
you can use it OR will not harden at all.
Buy boxes of 100 or so latex gloves (around $11CDN) and wear two pairs to
start. Then when they are too messed up to work with peel the top glove off
and put on another one. This way your hands stay clean, as Proseal can take
weeks to get off your hands!
As for application. The best way to mix (in my opinion for what it's worth),
is to place a small 5" x 7" rectangular piece of .020 aluminum on your scale
and "tare" out so scale reads zero. Then scoop say 100 grams of Proseal out
of the can with a putty knife and 10 grams of catalyst with a Popsicle
stick. Using another 1' wide putty knife (so you don't contaminate your
scooper) mix in a swirling motion at first and then scrape and mix until it
is a consistent Grey/black colour with no streaks!
As for application I just use the putty knife to "butter" the ribs, rear
spar and the tank skin both sides at the main spar seam. Prior to placing or
prosealing the tank skin put clecos at each rib flanges end holes. These
will help you locate the skin and also hold the skin up off the ribs until
you find the holes.(therefore the proseal doesn't get smeared out of place).
Cleco down, dip and place rivets, pull them and get the wing flipped over to
fillet all the seams with the ooozz out before it hardens (using a popscicle
stick, I found tongue depressors are too wide/ too large a radius!). Don't
worry about getting everything sealed up, just make sure you smooth out what
is there first. You can add a layer overtop around the seams later, when you
are installing the stringer fillers.
Using the aluminum sheet lets you scrape up the last drop of Proseal!!!
Using a bag, can or any other item wastes good, EXPENSIVE Proseal!
The worst part is thinking about mixing Proseal up, it still bothers me
after 11 wings!! Once you have it mixed, you don't have time to let it
bother you and oh yah, if you have people that just drop by from time to
time and want to talk! This is not the time!!!! Lock the shop door and don't
let them in. Make sure you have good ventalation or a fresh air hood on when
using the stuff and the cooler the shop is, the longer you will have to get
the job done before it starts to get tacky.
Just my 2 cents and they are only Canadian!!!!
Yes you WILL love flying this thing!!
Blue skies,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca
-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Hibbs <hibbs@pacifier.com>
To: Murphy Rebel Builders List <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Date: Monday, March 13, 2000 9:52 AM
Subject: Just an update and small question on Proseal
*----------------------------------------------------*I am working on Rebel 300. The fuselage was done when I got it and the
right wing was started. I am just about ready to Proseal the tank. I
remember a couple people suggesting that an 8:1 mix was better than 10:1
- any strong opinions about that? I plan to use a cake decorating bag
to hold the mix and squeeze it out as I go. I'll use tongue depressors
to fillet it into the corners and dip each tank rivet. I plan to keep
the temperature about 75 degrees F in the garage. Any other thoughts or
comments are appreciated. Gosh, I can't wait to fly this thing.
--
Best Regards,
Scott Hibbs
hibbs@pacifier.com
*----------------------------------------------------*
The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/lists/default.htm
*----------------------------------------------------*
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between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
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-
klehman
Just an update and small question on Proseal
Scott
this is only 0.5 cents worth but I like low 60's (degrees F) for proseal work as
it seems to almost double the working time compared to upper 70's. Yes, stick to
10:1 by weight or you don't really know what the properties of the finished
product will be. Mix in small amounts and have fun. Pro-seal, it's part of the
adventure...
Ken
ps - Rebel 119 has just been inspected and cleared for closing. No problems
found. Thank-you to Bill, Bob, Anna, Wayne, Brian, Mike and everyone (there are
lots more of you) who have shared their knowledge and helped me along.
- also if anyone is interested, those clipnuts from Wayne have a floating nut
and the clip part is only 0.015" thick. Real nice.
*----------------------------------------------------*
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this is only 0.5 cents worth but I like low 60's (degrees F) for proseal work as
it seems to almost double the working time compared to upper 70's. Yes, stick to
10:1 by weight or you don't really know what the properties of the finished
product will be. Mix in small amounts and have fun. Pro-seal, it's part of the
adventure...
Ken
ps - Rebel 119 has just been inspected and cleared for closing. No problems
found. Thank-you to Bill, Bob, Anna, Wayne, Brian, Mike and everyone (there are
lots more of you) who have shared their knowledge and helped me along.
- also if anyone is interested, those clipnuts from Wayne have a floating nut
and the clip part is only 0.015" thick. Real nice.
*----------------------------------------------------*
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between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
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-
Richard DeCiero
Just an update and small question on Proseal
Scott,
It seems that everyone has some comments about proseal. Here are what I
considered the most important issues when working with the proseal.
1. Mix accurately according to the manufacturers instructions. I used the
same mixing technique as recommended by Wayne in an earlier reply.
2. Keep the shop at around 60 F. For every 10 degrees F below 70, the cure
time doubles.
3. If your proseal is very old (expired shelf life ) I would test it by
mixing a small batch and seeing how it cures. Judging by your S/N the
proseal that you received with your kit is several years old and depending
upon how it was stored may affect it's adhesive qualities.
4. If you need (or want )new proseal it is available in a 4 hour cure time
(@ 70F). This will double to 8 hrs if you have the shop at 60F. It can be
purchased from SEALPAK Co. Inc. in Wichita, Kansas phone (316)
942-6211 Part number is CS-3204 B4.
The B4 is the 4 hour cure time a B2 would be 2 hhour cure.
5. I mixed about 220 grams at a time. The hand mixing process is tedious.
The mixed color will be a light to medium grey.
6. Have a total of at least 3 people available to help. No experience
necessary, they will help you move peices around and install cleco's etc. It
took me 6-8 hours to attach each skin and that was with 4 people!
7. Scotchbrite the heck out of every mating surface. I spent about 15 hours
scotchbiting every part. The result was a tank that did not leak when tested
with av gas.
8. Use plenty of ventilation and the latex glove technique works well. I
simply used a gloved finger to form fillets.
enough for now,
good luck
Rick D.
Scott Hibbs wrote:
The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
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It seems that everyone has some comments about proseal. Here are what I
considered the most important issues when working with the proseal.
1. Mix accurately according to the manufacturers instructions. I used the
same mixing technique as recommended by Wayne in an earlier reply.
2. Keep the shop at around 60 F. For every 10 degrees F below 70, the cure
time doubles.
3. If your proseal is very old (expired shelf life ) I would test it by
mixing a small batch and seeing how it cures. Judging by your S/N the
proseal that you received with your kit is several years old and depending
upon how it was stored may affect it's adhesive qualities.
4. If you need (or want )new proseal it is available in a 4 hour cure time
(@ 70F). This will double to 8 hrs if you have the shop at 60F. It can be
purchased from SEALPAK Co. Inc. in Wichita, Kansas phone (316)
942-6211 Part number is CS-3204 B4.
The B4 is the 4 hour cure time a B2 would be 2 hhour cure.
5. I mixed about 220 grams at a time. The hand mixing process is tedious.
The mixed color will be a light to medium grey.
6. Have a total of at least 3 people available to help. No experience
necessary, they will help you move peices around and install cleco's etc. It
took me 6-8 hours to attach each skin and that was with 4 people!
7. Scotchbrite the heck out of every mating surface. I spent about 15 hours
scotchbiting every part. The result was a tank that did not leak when tested
with av gas.
8. Use plenty of ventilation and the latex glove technique works well. I
simply used a gloved finger to form fillets.
enough for now,
good luck
Rick D.
Scott Hibbs wrote:
*----------------------------------------------------*I am working on Rebel 300. The fuselage was done when I got it and the
right wing was started. I am just about ready to Proseal the tank. I
remember a couple people suggesting that an 8:1 mix was better than 10:1
- any strong opinions about that? I plan to use a cake decorating bag
to hold the mix and squeeze it out as I go. I'll use tongue depressors
to fillet it into the corners and dip each tank rivet. I plan to keep
the temperature about 75 degrees F in the garage. Any other thoughts or
comments are appreciated. Gosh, I can't wait to fly this thing.
--
Best Regards,
Scott Hibbs
hibbs@pacifier.com
*----------------------------------------------------*
The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/lists/default.htm
*----------------------------------------------------*
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Archives located at:
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-
C&P Kucera
Just an update and small question on Proseal
Hi Scott.
You got a lot of good tips already but here is something I observed this
weekend after spending 20+ hrs sealing up my tank. ScotchBrite ALL flanges
on top AND under and apply ProSeal to both sides of the flanges, continuous
bead on top and a good dab on each hole under. That way the rivets get
driven into ProSeal and when pulled they completely self seal. (I also
coated the end of each rivet before driving in).
Avoid reusing clecos washed in MEK, or make sure that they are absolutely
dry. If they have MEK within the body they will drain into the seams and
screw up the ProSeal.
I riveted a piece of angle to each of the solid tank ribs to keep them
straight during construction.
I also noticed that the tank rivets have a small radius under the heads and
will not sit flush with the skin when first planted in the No. 30 holes even
when the holes are slightly chamfered from deburring. Pulling action then
seems to drive them in flush, but one must pull very straight. I guess the
rad is supposed to make them seal better?
It's a MESS! "Enjoy"!
Paul Kucera 453R
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Hibbs" <hibbs@pacifier.com>
To: "Murphy Rebel Builders List" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, March 13, 2000 9:54 AM
Subject: Just an update and small question on Proseal
The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
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*----------------------------------------------------*
-----------------------------------------------------------------
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-----------------------------------------------------------------
You got a lot of good tips already but here is something I observed this
weekend after spending 20+ hrs sealing up my tank. ScotchBrite ALL flanges
on top AND under and apply ProSeal to both sides of the flanges, continuous
bead on top and a good dab on each hole under. That way the rivets get
driven into ProSeal and when pulled they completely self seal. (I also
coated the end of each rivet before driving in).
Avoid reusing clecos washed in MEK, or make sure that they are absolutely
dry. If they have MEK within the body they will drain into the seams and
screw up the ProSeal.
I riveted a piece of angle to each of the solid tank ribs to keep them
straight during construction.
I also noticed that the tank rivets have a small radius under the heads and
will not sit flush with the skin when first planted in the No. 30 holes even
when the holes are slightly chamfered from deburring. Pulling action then
seems to drive them in flush, but one must pull very straight. I guess the
rad is supposed to make them seal better?
It's a MESS! "Enjoy"!
Paul Kucera 453R
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Hibbs" <hibbs@pacifier.com>
To: "Murphy Rebel Builders List" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, March 13, 2000 9:54 AM
Subject: Just an update and small question on Proseal
*----------------------------------------------------*I am working on Rebel 300. The fuselage was done when I got it and the
right wing was started. I am just about ready to Proseal the tank. I
remember a couple people suggesting that an 8:1 mix was better than 10:1
- any strong opinions about that? I plan to use a cake decorating bag
to hold the mix and squeeze it out as I go. I'll use tongue depressors
to fillet it into the corners and dip each tank rivet. I plan to keep
the temperature about 75 degrees F in the garage. Any other thoughts or
comments are appreciated. Gosh, I can't wait to fly this thing.
--
Best Regards,
Scott Hibbs
hibbs@pacifier.com
*----------------------------------------------------*
The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/lists/default.htm
*----------------------------------------------------*
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Archives located at:
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*----------------------------------------------------*
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-
Bob Patterson
Just an update and small question on Proseal
Just one more suggestion .... as discussed at the Builders Meeting
yesterday -
try using ACETONE instead of MEK. It is MUCH less toxic,
REALLY cleans up water, and flashes off quickly. Of course, you should
already be using VERY GOOD VENTILATION with all of these products.
Beware of cleaning cloths that might contain fabric softener or soap,
as well as oil - all will mess up the joint. Some folks use paper towels.
One suggestion on ventilation - mount your fan & motor OUTSIDE the
building, blowing INWARD. This will keep the motor out of the fumes,
greatly reducing fire hazard, and the positive pressure inside will
tend to keep dust out, assuming you have a good filter before the fan.
Have fun !!
.....bobp
----------------------------orig.----------------------------------------
At 08:11 PM 3/13/00 -0500, you wrote:
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between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
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*----------------------------------------------------*
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-----------------------------------------------------------------
yesterday -
try using ACETONE instead of MEK. It is MUCH less toxic,
REALLY cleans up water, and flashes off quickly. Of course, you should
already be using VERY GOOD VENTILATION with all of these products.
Beware of cleaning cloths that might contain fabric softener or soap,
as well as oil - all will mess up the joint. Some folks use paper towels.
One suggestion on ventilation - mount your fan & motor OUTSIDE the
building, blowing INWARD. This will keep the motor out of the fumes,
greatly reducing fire hazard, and the positive pressure inside will
tend to keep dust out, assuming you have a good filter before the fan.
Have fun !!
.....bobp
----------------------------orig.----------------------------------------
At 08:11 PM 3/13/00 -0500, you wrote:
*----------------------------------------------------*Hi Scott.
You got a lot of good tips already but here is something I observed this
weekend after spending 20+ hrs sealing up my tank. ScotchBrite ALL flanges
on top AND under and apply ProSeal to both sides of the flanges, continuous
bead on top and a good dab on each hole under. That way the rivets get
driven into ProSeal and when pulled they completely self seal. (I also
coated the end of each rivet before driving in).
Avoid reusing clecos washed in MEK, or make sure that they are absolutely
dry. If they have MEK within the body they will drain into the seams and
screw up the ProSeal.
I riveted a piece of angle to each of the solid tank ribs to keep them
straight during construction.
I also noticed that the tank rivets have a small radius under the heads and
will not sit flush with the skin when first planted in the No. 30 holes even
when the holes are slightly chamfered from deburring. Pulling action then
seems to drive them in flush, but one must pull very straight. I guess the
rad is supposed to make them seal better?
It's a MESS! "Enjoy"!
Paul Kucera 453R
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Hibbs" <hibbs@pacifier.com>
To: "Murphy Rebel Builders List" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, March 13, 2000 9:54 AM
Subject: Just an update and small question on Proseal
*----------------------------------------------------*I am working on Rebel 300. The fuselage was done when I got it and the
right wing was started. I am just about ready to Proseal the tank. I
remember a couple people suggesting that an 8:1 mix was better than 10:1
- any strong opinions about that? I plan to use a cake decorating bag
to hold the mix and squeeze it out as I go. I'll use tongue depressors
to fillet it into the corners and dip each tank rivet. I plan to keep
the temperature about 75 degrees F in the garage. Any other thoughts or
comments are appreciated. Gosh, I can't wait to fly this thing.
--
Best Regards,
Scott Hibbs
hibbs@pacifier.com
*----------------------------------------------------*
The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/lists/default.htm
*----------------------------------------------------*
The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
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The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
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francesco.simioni
Just an update and small question on Proseal
Hi Scott,
my own personal opinion is :
1) keep the 10 to 1 ratio and make sure of the proportions by the use of a
inexpensive scale that is used for mails and letters
2) mix only small amounts at the time . I did the tanks by mixing between 30 to
40 grams at the time, in this way the waisted proseal due to the relentless
passing of the 120 minutes will be kept at minimum ( I found out that when you
work with proseal time accelerates past the Einstein theory)
3) be energetic with Scotchbrite to have the best results
4) I used a small aluminum hand made putty knife ( we have a lot of scrap 6061
dont we ) the size that suits the need.
Last but not the least do not be afraid of getting started, the more you plan
and think the less proseal sticks to the tank.
Happy building
Francesco Simioni
Rebel 562
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my own personal opinion is :
1) keep the 10 to 1 ratio and make sure of the proportions by the use of a
inexpensive scale that is used for mails and letters
2) mix only small amounts at the time . I did the tanks by mixing between 30 to
40 grams at the time, in this way the waisted proseal due to the relentless
passing of the 120 minutes will be kept at minimum ( I found out that when you
work with proseal time accelerates past the Einstein theory)
3) be energetic with Scotchbrite to have the best results
4) I used a small aluminum hand made putty knife ( we have a lot of scrap 6061
dont we ) the size that suits the need.
Last but not the least do not be afraid of getting started, the more you plan
and think the less proseal sticks to the tank.
Happy building
Francesco Simioni
Rebel 562
*----------------------------------------------------*
The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/lists/default.htm
*----------------------------------------------------*
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username "rebel" password "builder"
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