Calls to factory

[Bob Patterson]

Oh, Good Grief !! While we're at it, why don't we call the
Government and ask them to do something about the weather !!!!

Come on, Guys ! This is homebuilding !! We have the talent
and the experience to develop our <own> "solutions" !!! NO airplane
is perfect ! We went through the same stages with the Rebel ....
Through experience in the field, problem areas were discovered.
Different solutions were developed & tested by different builders.
We shared the results at Builders Meetings - in the days before
we had Mike & the internet, and spread the word by snail mail
newsletters, and Builder Visits. The "Ontario Mods" are there
in the archives for anyone now building a Rebel. Some of the
changes we came up with were embraced by the factory, and
incorporated into the manual and parts list (a biggie was the
current fuel tank/wing skin method - much easier than the
original way !) Others were not - they are running a business,
and some of the things we do, for <our conditions and operations>,
were things that they might suggest for <our> type of flying,
but didn't feel were necessary for all customers.

Give poor Darryl a break !! He has been very responsive in
the past - you wouldn't even HAVE a "Moose", if he hadn't responded
to a bunch of builders who were insisting on stuffing a heavy 400 hp
engine into the Super Rebel, which was designed for 180 - 250 hp MAX !!
Not only did he beef up the airframe, but he spent the money & time
to bring in outside engineers to re-check the stress analysis,
AND build a test stand to sandbag the structure to prove it !
All of that because he didn't want anyone to get hurt doing things
with his original design that it was never intended for, just
because some thought that "It looks like a Beaver, so we can stuff
that big engine in and be OK..."

........bobp
(having another bad day ! ;-) )

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Thursday 11 August 2005 10:12 am, Brent Blue wrote:

At 04:00 PM 8/10/2005 -0800, you wrote:

But following the posts here I was wondering if we put up a group effort
calling or e-mailing MAM that something might get done to resolve this

issue?

I suggest everyone give Daryl a call.

Brent
088 Moose

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[Dale Fultz]

Having another bad day BOB, Oh Good Grief------Come on ,
Guys ------------Give poor Daryl a break, I didn't get a break when I
started the Super Rebel bought an IO-360 engine as was advertised for in it,
and phoned the factory and wanted to buy a mount and they asked what I
wanted it for and told them my Super Rebel you would of thought I committed
a crime. They proceeded to tell me it wasn't an approved power plant and
would be foolish to try it. So I still keep their brochure to laugh at when
I think of the money I lost on my experimental field assembly . What do you
believe and what don't ya Bob surely you can see my point. When it is
advertised as a bush plane a paved runway doesn't really come to mind or at
least for me but I don't expect people to fly them off a rock cliff either.
When stress is showing up on normal use something needs to be done. I am
trying to help free of charge and not make a profit, I think it is easier to
correct now than down the road when damage is done to my aircraft. Hope
your day gets better BoB. Later Dale 033




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[rickhm]

Bob,

Imagine you are interested in building a Moose. You hear about this list. You take an hour and read all this about the tail stinger, the tail wheel and your email. It would certainly give a prospective builder reason to consider other alternitives. Yes it is a homebuilt. But as Dale points out it is advertised as a bush plane with a gross weight 3000/3500 lbs for the SR2500/Moose. Yes Cessna had their problems, but that is a certificated plane and change comes hard there because of the certification process. You would hope that the designer would have learned from Cessna's problems. I do not see it as inappropriate for Murphy to address this, I see it as very appropriate.

Rick Muller
SR70

-------------- Original message --------------

Having another bad day BOB, Oh Good Grief------Come on ,
Guys ------------Give poor Daryl a break, I didn't get a break when I
started the Super Rebel bought an IO-360 engine as was advertised for in it,
and phoned the factory and wanted to buy a mount and they asked what I
wanted it for and told them my Super Rebel you would of thought I committed
a crime. They proceeded to tell me it wasn't an approved power plant and
would be foolish to try it. So I still keep their brochure to laugh at when
I think of the money I lost on my experimental field assembly . What do you
believe and what don't ya Bob surely you can see my point. When it is
advertised as a bush plane a paved runway doesn't really come to mind or at
least for me but I don't expect people to fly them off a rock cliff either.
When stress is showing up on normal use something needs to be done. I am
trying to help free of charge and not make a profit, I think it is easier to
correct now than down the road when damage is done to my aircraft. Hope
your day gets better BoB. Later Dale 033




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[Bob Patterson]

Hi Scott !

I'm sure Darryl, and everyone else at the factory, and, by now,
everyone in the aviation WORLD (!), is aware of the problems and
concerns about the Moose gear.

All I was saying is that "a bunch of harrassing phone calls
to the factory" is neither a mature solution, nor an approach that is
likely to speed up a resolution to the problems.

I'm glad to hear that a group of Moose builders are working on
designing and testing alternative solutions --- just as a bunch of us
did with the early Rebel kits. I'm sure something good will come out
of their efforts, and it will be shared here, for the benefit of
future builders, just as the Rebel 'fixes' are.

To my knowledge, none of the early Rebel builders EVER accused
Darryl of deliberately doing less than his best when designing the
kits, or of deliberately "cheating" them when selling them, especially not
in a public forum like this ! We simply recognized that weaknesses
showed up in field use, and we came up with fixes. These were passed
back to the factory, and many were added to the production kits.

I'm not saying that the above applies to you, Scott ! It's just
that some of the comments I see really upset me - I would expect better,
and I hope that the majority of this group would agree that these
comments, from a few, are a bit beyond fairness !

Thanks for listening to me rant ! :-)

.....bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Saturday 13 August 2005 01:12 pm, Scott Aldrich wrote:

Darryl doesn't need a break, we have all given him plenty of kudos for the
great kits, he just needs to get his shit together on the crappy Moose gear
before his sales plummet or worse yet someone gets hurt when they fold up.

Scott
Moose 174

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Bob
Patterson
Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2005 9:48 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Calls to factory



Oh, Good Grief !! While we're at it, why don't we call the
Government and ask them to do something about the weather !!!!

Come on, Guys ! This is homebuilding !! We have the talent
and the experience to develop our <own> "solutions" !!! NO airplane
is perfect ! We went through the same stages with the Rebel ....
Through experience in the field, problem areas were discovered.
Different solutions were developed & tested by different builders.
We shared the results at Builders Meetings - in the days before
we had Mike & the internet, and spread the word by snail mail
newsletters, and Builder Visits. The "Ontario Mods" are there
in the archives for anyone now building a Rebel. Some of the
changes we came up with were embraced by the factory, and
incorporated into the manual and parts list (a biggie was the
current fuel tank/wing skin method - much easier than the
original way !) Others were not - they are running a business,
and some of the things we do, for <our conditions and operations>,
were things that they might suggest for <our> type of flying,
but didn't feel were necessary for all customers.

Give poor Darryl a break !! He has been very responsive in
the past - you wouldn't even HAVE a "Moose", if he hadn't responded
to a bunch of builders who were insisting on stuffing a heavy 400 hp
engine into the Super Rebel, which was designed for 180 - 250 hp MAX !!
Not only did he beef up the airframe, but he spent the money & time
to bring in outside engineers to re-check the stress analysis,
AND build a test stand to sandbag the structure to prove it !
All of that because he didn't want anyone to get hurt doing things
with his original design that it was never intended for, just
because some thought that "It looks like a Beaver, so we can stuff
that big engine in and be OK..."

........bobp
(having another bad day ! ;-) )

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Thursday 11 August 2005 10:12 am, Brent Blue wrote:

At 04:00 PM 8/10/2005 -0800, you wrote:

But following the posts here I was wondering if we put up a group effort
calling or e-mailing MAM that something might get done to resolve this

issue?

I suggest everyone give Daryl a call.

Brent
088 Moose

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[Scott Aldrich]

Darryl doesn't need a break, we have all given him plenty of kudos for the
great kits, he just needs to get his shit together on the crappy Moose gear
before his sales plummet or worse yet someone gets hurt when they fold up.

Scott
Moose 174

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Bob
Patterson
Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2005 9:48 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Calls to factory



Oh, Good Grief !! While we're at it, why don't we call the
Government and ask them to do something about the weather !!!!

Come on, Guys ! This is homebuilding !! We have the talent
and the experience to develop our <own> "solutions" !!! NO airplane
is perfect ! We went through the same stages with the Rebel ....
Through experience in the field, problem areas were discovered.
Different solutions were developed & tested by different builders.
We shared the results at Builders Meetings - in the days before
we had Mike & the internet, and spread the word by snail mail
newsletters, and Builder Visits. The "Ontario Mods" are there
in the archives for anyone now building a Rebel. Some of the
changes we came up with were embraced by the factory, and
incorporated into the manual and parts list (a biggie was the
current fuel tank/wing skin method - much easier than the
original way !) Others were not - they are running a business,
and some of the things we do, for <our conditions and operations>,
were things that they might suggest for <our> type of flying,
but didn't feel were necessary for all customers.

Give poor Darryl a break !! He has been very responsive in
the past - you wouldn't even HAVE a "Moose", if he hadn't responded
to a bunch of builders who were insisting on stuffing a heavy 400 hp
engine into the Super Rebel, which was designed for 180 - 250 hp MAX !!
Not only did he beef up the airframe, but he spent the money & time
to bring in outside engineers to re-check the stress analysis,
AND build a test stand to sandbag the structure to prove it !
All of that because he didn't want anyone to get hurt doing things
with his original design that it was never intended for, just
because some thought that "It looks like a Beaver, so we can stuff
that big engine in and be OK..."

........bobp
(having another bad day ! ;-) )

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Thursday 11 August 2005 10:12 am, Brent Blue wrote:

At 04:00 PM 8/10/2005 -0800, you wrote:

But following the posts here I was wondering if we put up a group effort
calling or e-mailing MAM that something might get done to resolve this

issue?

I suggest everyone give Daryl a call.

Brent
088 Moose

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