Hello All,
I suspect it's because my kit has been crated for so long, but on some pieces the plastic covering on
the aluminum is not so easy to remove and once removed , it leaves a layer of glue on the piece. I
have been using lighter fluid to remove it and am wondering if there is something anyone knows
about that would remove it more expediently. Is lighter fluid a bad thing to use on aluminum?
Thanks ahead of time to all who reply. J. Alan Thompson
-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Do you want this big green box to go away? Well here's how...
Click here for full update
Wildcat! photo archives restored.
Click here for full update
Donors can now disable ads.
Click here for instructions
Add yourself to the user map.
Click here for instructions
Click here for full update
Wildcat! photo archives restored.
Click here for full update
Donors can now disable ads.
Click here for instructions
Add yourself to the user map.
Click here for instructions
Glue residue on plastic coating
Glue residue on plastic coating
One of the things I know too much about...
Use Goof-Off (google: goof valspar or goof solvent)
Soaking is required. I leave parts in a disposable (reusable) turkey pan,
with the aluminum foil cover over the top to minimize evaporation. Parts
need not be covered with goofoff, but at least spread it on the part and
leave more on the bottom of the pan so the fumes do their magic. 24 hours
later and the plastic and residue will practically fall off. Re-use the
solvent. For larger sheets, I paint the solvent on the sheet and lay
aluminum foil on top, again to minimize evaporation.
Goof-off is available in quart, or at Home Depot in gallon containers.
-Ben/ 496R
-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Use Goof-Off (google: goof valspar or goof solvent)
Soaking is required. I leave parts in a disposable (reusable) turkey pan,
with the aluminum foil cover over the top to minimize evaporation. Parts
need not be covered with goofoff, but at least spread it on the part and
leave more on the bottom of the pan so the fumes do their magic. 24 hours
later and the plastic and residue will practically fall off. Re-use the
solvent. For larger sheets, I paint the solvent on the sheet and lay
aluminum foil on top, again to minimize evaporation.
Goof-off is available in quart, or at Home Depot in gallon containers.
-Ben/ 496R
pieces the plastic covering onHello All,
I suspect it's because my kit has been crated for so long, but on some
layer of glue on the piece. Ithe aluminum is not so easy to remove and once removed , it leaves a
something anyone knowshave been using lighter fluid to remove it and am wondering if there is
to use on aluminum?about that would remove it more expediently. Is lighter fluid a bad thing
Thanks ahead of time to all who reply. J. Alan Thompson
-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Glue residue on plastic coating
you can use MEK or Acetone and the residue will wipe very easy, however
make sure you have lots of ventilation and or a mask as the fumes can be
quite noxious.
Del Schmucker
________________________________
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com on behalf of bransom@dcsol.com
Sent: Wed 7/6/2005 7:20 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: Glue residue on plastic coating
One of the things I know too much about...
Use Goof-Off (google: goof valspar or goof solvent)
Soaking is required. I leave parts in a disposable (reusable) turkey
pan,
with the aluminum foil cover over the top to minimize evaporation.
Parts
need not be covered with goofoff, but at least spread it on the part and
leave more on the bottom of the pan so the fumes do their magic. 24
hours
later and the plastic and residue will practically fall off. Re-use the
solvent. For larger sheets, I paint the solvent on the sheet and lay
aluminum foil on top, again to minimize evaporation.
Goof-off is available in quart, or at Home Depot in gallon containers.
-Ben/ 496R
pieces the plastic covering on
something anyone knows
to use on aluminum?
-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://www.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Subscription services located at:
https://www.dcsol.com/public/code/html-subscribe.htm
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------
make sure you have lots of ventilation and or a mask as the fumes can be
quite noxious.
Del Schmucker
________________________________
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com on behalf of bransom@dcsol.com
Sent: Wed 7/6/2005 7:20 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: Glue residue on plastic coating
One of the things I know too much about...
Use Goof-Off (google: goof valspar or goof solvent)
Soaking is required. I leave parts in a disposable (reusable) turkey
pan,
with the aluminum foil cover over the top to minimize evaporation.
Parts
need not be covered with goofoff, but at least spread it on the part and
leave more on the bottom of the pan so the fumes do their magic. 24
hours
later and the plastic and residue will practically fall off. Re-use the
solvent. For larger sheets, I paint the solvent on the sheet and lay
aluminum foil on top, again to minimize evaporation.
Goof-off is available in quart, or at Home Depot in gallon containers.
-Ben/ 496R
someHello All,
I suspect it's because my kit has been crated for so long, but on
pieces the plastic covering on
layer of glue on the piece. Ithe aluminum is not so easy to remove and once removed , it leaves a
ishave been using lighter fluid to remove it and am wondering if there
something anyone knows
thingabout that would remove it more expediently. Is lighter fluid a bad
to use on aluminum?
Thanks ahead of time to all who reply. J. Alan Thompson
-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://www.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Subscription services located at:
https://www.dcsol.com/public/code/html-subscribe.htm
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Glue residue on plastic coating
J. Alan:
I'm not sure what type of adhesive is used on the plastic covering, so this
may or may not work. When I worked with 3M Aerospace installing and
removing a paint replacement film on aircraft, we removed the acrylic based
adhesive with standard isopropanol alcohol. It's best to use the 91% vs.
the 70 %, but either is worth trying . It's cheap and toxicity is not a big
issue. Apply any way you want, spray bottle, brush, etc. After applying as
much as the surface will hold, place saran or other plastic wrap over the
coated surface and come back 30-60 minutes later and scrape off the residue
with a plastic scraper. I don't know if it will work - it depends on the
base adhesive; but it's worth trying and reporting to us all if it works.
Good luck,
Tom Packard
SR 043
----- Original Message -----
From: <alan.thompson@dcsol.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 7:01 PM
Subject: Glue residue on plastic coating
--- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! ---
-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------
I'm not sure what type of adhesive is used on the plastic covering, so this
may or may not work. When I worked with 3M Aerospace installing and
removing a paint replacement film on aircraft, we removed the acrylic based
adhesive with standard isopropanol alcohol. It's best to use the 91% vs.
the 70 %, but either is worth trying . It's cheap and toxicity is not a big
issue. Apply any way you want, spray bottle, brush, etc. After applying as
much as the surface will hold, place saran or other plastic wrap over the
coated surface and come back 30-60 minutes later and scrape off the residue
with a plastic scraper. I don't know if it will work - it depends on the
base adhesive; but it's worth trying and reporting to us all if it works.
Good luck,
Tom Packard
SR 043
----- Original Message -----
From: <alan.thompson@dcsol.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 7:01 PM
Subject: Glue residue on plastic coating
pieces the plastic covering onHello All,
I suspect it's because my kit has been crated for so long, but on some
layer of glue on the piece. Ithe aluminum is not so easy to remove and once removed , it leaves a
something anyone knowshave been using lighter fluid to remove it and am wondering if there is
to use on aluminum?about that would remove it more expediently. Is lighter fluid a bad thing
Thanks ahead of time to all who reply. J. Alan Thompson
-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://www.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Subscription services located at:
https://www.dcsol.com/public/code/html-subscribe.htm
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------
--- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! ---
-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Glue residue on plastic coating
I've tried this "Goof Off" product and found it to work quite well. One rag dampened wiped on, and a
dry rag immediately afterwards to pick up residue. I didn't have much success with acetone, but
admittedly didn't try soaking it and covering with saran for 30 min....
Have yet to try the alcohol idea as this stuff seems to be doing the trick.
Thanks to all on the input.
Just have to rivet top sides of leading edges on two ailerons, and ailerons will be done.
Figuring total time on ailerons alone to be around 90 hrs. (without fabric!) . Is this ridiculously slow?
Should I be insulted when the manual says 5 Hrs. per aileron?
I realize that as you go you become faster and more proficient, but 5 hrs/aileron???
Any discussion on build times for components are sure welcome.
J. Alan Thompson R537
On 7/7/2005 1:52 PM, JTPACKARD@USFAMILY.NET wrote to REBEL-BUILDERS:
-> Received: by dcsol.com (Wildcat! SMTP Router v6.1.451.4)
-> for rebel-builders@dcsol.com; Thu, 07 Jul 2005 13:53:10 -0800
-> Received: from smtp.usfamily.net ([67.104.219.34]) HELO=smtp.usfamily.net
-> by dcsol.com (Wildcat! SMTP v6.1.451.4) with SMTP
-> id 2403970406; Thu, 07 Jul 2005 13:53:07 -0800
-> Received: from [63.238.115.95] by usfamily.net
-> (USFamily MTA v2.1.0)
-> with SMTP id com for <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>;
-> Thu, 07 Jul 2005 16:52:52 -0500 (CDT)
-> (envelope-from jtpackard@usfamily.net, authenticated user jtpackard@usfamily.net)
-> Message-ID: <008701c5833e$39bfa880$5f73ee3f@PackardHome>
-> From: <jtpackard@usfamily.net>
-> To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
-> References: <1120694461@dcsol.com>
-> Subject: Re: Glue residue on plastic coating
-> Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 16:52:50 -0500
-> X-Orig-MIME-Version: 1.0
-> X-Orig-Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
-> X-Orig-Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
-> X-Priority: 3
-> X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
-> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158
-> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165
-> X-Virus-Assassin: Message filtered with wsAV v3.0.0 Build 001
->
-> J. Alan:
-> I'm not sure what type of adhesive is used on the plastic covering, so this
-> may or may not work. When I worked with 3M Aerospace installing and
-> removing a paint replacement film on aircraft, we removed the acrylic based
-> adhesive with standard isopropanol alcohol. It's best to use the 91% vs.
-> the 70 %, but either is worth trying . It's cheap and toxicity is not a big
-> issue. Apply any way you want, spray bottle, brush, etc. After applying as
-> much as the surface will hold, place saran or other plastic wrap over the
-> coated surface and come back 30-60 minutes later and scrape off the residue
-> with a plastic scraper. I don't know if it will work - it depends on the
-> base adhesive; but it's worth trying and reporting to us all if it works.
->
-> Good luck,
-> Tom Packard
-> SR 043
-> ----- Original Message -----
-> From: <alan.thompson@dcsol.com>
-> To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
-> Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 7:01 PM
-> Subject: Glue residue on plastic coating
->
->
-> > Hello All,
-> > I suspect it's because my kit has been crated for so long, but on some
-> pieces the plastic covering on
-> > the aluminum is not so easy to remove and once removed , it leaves a
-> layer of glue on the piece. I
-> > have been using lighter fluid to remove it and am wondering if there is
-> something anyone knows
-> > about that would remove it more expediently. Is lighter fluid a bad thing
-> to use on aluminum?
-> > Thanks ahead of time to all who reply. J. Alan Thompson
-> >
-> >
-> >
-> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
-> > List archives located at: https://www.dcsol.com/login
-> > username "rebel" password "builder"
-> > Subscription services located at:
-> > https://www.dcsol.com/public/code/html-subscribe.htm
-> > List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
-> >
-> >
-> >
->
->
->
-> --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/
mo! ---
->
-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------
dry rag immediately afterwards to pick up residue. I didn't have much success with acetone, but
admittedly didn't try soaking it and covering with saran for 30 min....
Have yet to try the alcohol idea as this stuff seems to be doing the trick.
Thanks to all on the input.
Just have to rivet top sides of leading edges on two ailerons, and ailerons will be done.
Figuring total time on ailerons alone to be around 90 hrs. (without fabric!) . Is this ridiculously slow?
Should I be insulted when the manual says 5 Hrs. per aileron?
I realize that as you go you become faster and more proficient, but 5 hrs/aileron???
Any discussion on build times for components are sure welcome.
J. Alan Thompson R537
On 7/7/2005 1:52 PM, JTPACKARD@USFAMILY.NET wrote to REBEL-BUILDERS:
-> Received: by dcsol.com (Wildcat! SMTP Router v6.1.451.4)
-> for rebel-builders@dcsol.com; Thu, 07 Jul 2005 13:53:10 -0800
-> Received: from smtp.usfamily.net ([67.104.219.34]) HELO=smtp.usfamily.net
-> by dcsol.com (Wildcat! SMTP v6.1.451.4) with SMTP
-> id 2403970406; Thu, 07 Jul 2005 13:53:07 -0800
-> Received: from [63.238.115.95] by usfamily.net
-> (USFamily MTA v2.1.0)
-> with SMTP id com for <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>;
-> Thu, 07 Jul 2005 16:52:52 -0500 (CDT)
-> (envelope-from jtpackard@usfamily.net, authenticated user jtpackard@usfamily.net)
-> Message-ID: <008701c5833e$39bfa880$5f73ee3f@PackardHome>
-> From: <jtpackard@usfamily.net>
-> To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
-> References: <1120694461@dcsol.com>
-> Subject: Re: Glue residue on plastic coating
-> Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 16:52:50 -0500
-> X-Orig-MIME-Version: 1.0
-> X-Orig-Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
-> X-Orig-Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
-> X-Priority: 3
-> X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
-> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158
-> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165
-> X-Virus-Assassin: Message filtered with wsAV v3.0.0 Build 001
->
-> J. Alan:
-> I'm not sure what type of adhesive is used on the plastic covering, so this
-> may or may not work. When I worked with 3M Aerospace installing and
-> removing a paint replacement film on aircraft, we removed the acrylic based
-> adhesive with standard isopropanol alcohol. It's best to use the 91% vs.
-> the 70 %, but either is worth trying . It's cheap and toxicity is not a big
-> issue. Apply any way you want, spray bottle, brush, etc. After applying as
-> much as the surface will hold, place saran or other plastic wrap over the
-> coated surface and come back 30-60 minutes later and scrape off the residue
-> with a plastic scraper. I don't know if it will work - it depends on the
-> base adhesive; but it's worth trying and reporting to us all if it works.
->
-> Good luck,
-> Tom Packard
-> SR 043
-> ----- Original Message -----
-> From: <alan.thompson@dcsol.com>
-> To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
-> Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 7:01 PM
-> Subject: Glue residue on plastic coating
->
->
-> > Hello All,
-> > I suspect it's because my kit has been crated for so long, but on some
-> pieces the plastic covering on
-> > the aluminum is not so easy to remove and once removed , it leaves a
-> layer of glue on the piece. I
-> > have been using lighter fluid to remove it and am wondering if there is
-> something anyone knows
-> > about that would remove it more expediently. Is lighter fluid a bad thing
-> to use on aluminum?
-> > Thanks ahead of time to all who reply. J. Alan Thompson
-> >
-> >
-> >
-> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
-> > List archives located at: https://www.dcsol.com/login
-> > username "rebel" password "builder"
-> > Subscription services located at:
-> > https://www.dcsol.com/public/code/html-subscribe.htm
-> > List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
-> >
-> >
-> >
->
->
->
-> --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/
mo! ---
->
-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Glue residue on plastic coating
I laugh at the estimated build hours too. Way way off.
Jesse
-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Jesse
From: alan.thompson@dcsol.com
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Glue residue on plastic coating
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 10:02:04 -0800
I've tried this "Goof Off" product and found it to work quite well. One rag
dampened wiped on, and a
dry rag immediately afterwards to pick up residue. I didn't have much
success with acetone, but
admittedly didn't try soaking it and covering with saran for 30 min....
Have yet to try the alcohol idea as this stuff seems to be doing the
trick.
Thanks to all on the input.
Just have to rivet top sides of leading edges on two ailerons, and
ailerons will be done.
Figuring total time on ailerons alone to be around 90 hrs. (without
fabric!) . Is this ridiculously slow?
Should I be insulted when the manual says 5 Hrs. per aileron?
I realize that as you go you become faster and more proficient, but 5
hrs/aileron???
Any discussion on build times for components are sure welcome.
J. Alan Thompson R537
On 7/7/2005 1:52 PM, JTPACKARD@USFAMILY.NET wrote to REBEL-BUILDERS:
-> Received: by dcsol.com (Wildcat! SMTP Router v6.1.451.4)
-> for rebel-builders@dcsol.com; Thu, 07 Jul 2005 13:53:10 -0800
-> Received: from smtp.usfamily.net ([67.104.219.34])
HELO=smtp.usfamily.net
-> by dcsol.com (Wildcat! SMTP v6.1.451.4) with SMTP
-> id 2403970406; Thu, 07 Jul 2005 13:53:07 -0800
-> Received: from [63.238.115.95] by usfamily.net
-> (USFamily MTA v2.1.0)
-> with SMTP id com for <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>;
-> Thu, 07 Jul 2005 16:52:52 -0500 (CDT)
-> (envelope-from jtpackard@usfamily.net, authenticated user
jtpackard@usfamily.net)
-> Message-ID: <008701c5833e$39bfa880$5f73ee3f@PackardHome>
-> From: <jtpackard@usfamily.net>
-> To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
-> References: <1120694461@dcsol.com>
-> Subject: Re: Glue residue on plastic coating
-> Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 16:52:50 -0500
-> X-Orig-MIME-Version: 1.0
-> X-Orig-Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
-> X-Orig-Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
-> X-Priority: 3
-> X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
-> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158
-> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165
-> X-Virus-Assassin: Message filtered with wsAV v3.0.0 Build 001
->
-> J. Alan:
-> I'm not sure what type of adhesive is used on the plastic covering, so
this
-> may or may not work. When I worked with 3M Aerospace installing and
-> removing a paint replacement film on aircraft, we removed the acrylic
based
-> adhesive with standard isopropanol alcohol. It's best to use the 91%
vs.
-> the 70 %, but either is worth trying . It's cheap and toxicity is not a
big
-> issue. Apply any way you want, spray bottle, brush, etc. After
applying as
-> much as the surface will hold, place saran or other plastic wrap over
the
-> coated surface and come back 30-60 minutes later and scrape off the
residue
-> with a plastic scraper. I don't know if it will work - it depends on
the
-> base adhesive; but it's worth trying and reporting to us all if it
works.
->
-> Good luck,
-> Tom Packard
-> SR 043
-> ----- Original Message -----
-> From: <alan.thompson@dcsol.com>
-> To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
-> Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 7:01 PM
-> Subject: Glue residue on plastic coating
->
->
-> > Hello All,
-> > I suspect it's because my kit has been crated for so long, but on
some
-> pieces the plastic covering on
-> > the aluminum is not so easy to remove and once removed , it leaves a
-> layer of glue on the piece. I
-> > have been using lighter fluid to remove it and am wondering if there
is
-> something anyone knows
-> > about that would remove it more expediently. Is lighter fluid a bad
thing
-> to use on aluminum?
-> > Thanks ahead of time to all who reply. J. Alan Thompson
-> >
-> >
-> >
-> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
-> > List archives located at: https://www.dcsol.com/login
-> > username "rebel" password "builder"
-> > Subscription services located at:
-> > https://www.dcsol.com/public/code/html-subscribe.htm
-> > List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
-> >
-> >
-> >
->
->
->
-> --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! --
http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/
mo! ---
->
-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://www.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Subscription services located at:
https://www.dcsol.com/public/code/html-subscribe.htm
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------