DIGEST - rebel-builders-d

[Dale Fultz]

Hi Bill , What you have to remember is that measurement is from firewall
back not engine installed , My shop should have been bigger to assemble
without changing things again. The measurement MAM gives is kinda
deceiving. Best of luck Dale
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Davis" <mike.davis@dcsol.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2005 3:21 PM
Subject: Re: DIGEST - rebel-builders-d

Hi Bill, I don't thing you'll have any trouble building in that space...
of
course you'll have to take it out for final assembly. My shop's main
space
is 30' x 40', but all winter I have 2 cars in there, so I end up with a
work
space of about 30' x 15', and it's plenty for working on the individual
pieces. As far as hanging parts from the rafters, that shouldn't be a
problem as long as the rafters/trusses are designed for the load. The
trusses I used were designed only for sheet rock and insulation, so I
wouldn't do that myself, but it's easy enough to build them to support the
load.

As for a fast build being worth it... I suppose that's just a matter of
opinion. Personally, I want to drill/debur every hole, and pull every
rivet. It's all part of the experience for me. But I certainly don't
have
anything against the fast build if that's the way you wanted to go.

Good luck with your shop.

Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Wagner" <WagnerB@mjss.ca>
To: <rebel-builders-d@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2005 1:34 PM
Subject: RE: DIGEST - rebel-builders-d

I have been lurking on the digest list for months now, and I'm getting
ready to build the garage that I will eventually put the Moose kit into.

My problem: I live on a 25-foot wide lot here in Calgary, so the
biggest width I can go is about 23 feet. I gather the moose itself is
24-feet long overall when it's assembled, and of course you want to be
able to work around the thing.

The city will probably only let me build a garage that is 24 feet deep -
but these are outside dimensions.

My first question: can you build a moose in a space that is
approximately 22 feet wide by 23 feet deep? If so, will there be any
floor space left over for the air compressor, drill press, band saw, et
cetera?

One of the things I'm considering is putting in a "loft" above the main
garage floor. That would give me space to put the wings and other parts
while I work on the main fuselage. Would this be useful, or is it not
worth the thousands of dollars that I could otherwise be pouring into
the Moose? My current alternative is to put in a 12-foot ceiling
(instead of 10 feet) and hang the wings from the rafters. Bad idea?

I would appreciate any advice you people may have about this. I plan to
order the kit next summer, when finances permit, and take delivery as
soon as it's ready.

Does anyone think that the quickbuild/solid rivets is not the way to go
if you can afford to do it that way? 3000 hours seems like a long time
... and that's the advertized build time with the "slow build".

I like the idea of the M-14P engine, so it seems that I would be better
off spending the money on the quickbuild (built in Canada, not the
Phillipines!), and saving money on the engine. I heard that the M-14
can run on farm gas, which really makes the decision easier!

Thank-you in advance for you advice!


Bill in Calgary

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[jim wilson]

I think I would help Bush to take a little longer bath. See you in a few -
am just about to leave. Lofe you!!! Herkimer PA
----- Original Message -----
From: "rebel-builders-d digest" <rebel-builders-d@dcsol.com>
To: <rebel-builders-d@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2005 5:00 PM
Subject: DIGEST - rebel-builders-d

Digest of list: rebel-builders-d Total messages in digest: 10

1 Date : Sat, 18 Jun 2005 09:10:08 +0100
From : admin@airnig.co.uk
Subject: Elites and MAM 1800 floats

2 Date : Sat, 18 Jun 2005 09:34:03 +0100
From : admin@airnig.co.uk
Subject: Cable guides for no inner floor aircraft

3 Date : Sat, 18 Jun 2005 09:44:39 +0100
From : admin@airnig.co.uk
Subject: Skype

4 Date : Sat, 18 Jun 2005 06:36:18 -0700
From : walter.klatt@shaw.ca
Subject: RE: Skype

5 Date : Sat, 18 Jun 2005 07:24:27 -0700
From : walter.klatt@shaw.ca
Subject: RE: Float Ramble 2006 to Lake Temagami ??!!

6 Date : Thu, 16 Jun 2005 10:23:22 -0700 (PDT)
From : fdarnell@carolina.rr.com
Subject: Re: Re: Prop Extension

7 Date : Sat, 18 Jun 2005 10:36:31 -0400
From : jcole@rangroup.com
Subject: Re: Float Ramble 2006 to Lake Temagami ??!!

8 Date : Sat, 18 Jun 2005 11:27:28 -0700
From : paxhia2@comcast.net
Subject: Re: Skype

9 Date : Sat, 18 Jun 2005 14:55:24 -0400
From : lbpollock@sympatico.ca
Subject: Fuel Cap Locatoin

10 Date : Sat, 18 Jun 2005 13:29:20 -0600
From : sa@mwutah.com
Subject: RE: Fuel Cap Locatoin


---------- Digest Message #1 ----------
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 09:10:08 +0100
From: admin@airnig.co.uk
To: rebel-builders
Subject: Elites and MAM 1800 floats

Hi All

I've recently heard about a problem with fitting MAM 1800 floats to the
Elite, where the top float attach bracket on the rear float legs will not
meet the fuselage attach point at the correct angle since the rear attach
point on the Elite is slightly further forward than that on the Rebel.

I've heard from Robin this morning that there will be a different bracket
available for Elite installations, so you'll need to specify Elite or
Rebel
when ordering the float mounting kit.

Nigel
745E

(still working on the FUS but planning ahead :-) )





---------- Digest Message #2 ----------
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 09:34:03 +0100
From: admin@airnig.co.uk
To: rebel-builders
Subject: Cable guides for no inner floor aircraft

Hi All

I've just uploaded to Elite Control Systems a picture of some new cable
guides I've had made up by a friend who's into model engineering.

It's basically a 4" long piece of nylon with 1/2" spaced cable guide holes
in it, designed to fit over the 4" overlap in the floor rib joints on the
rear 3 ribs before the floor mounted pulleys. The slight cut-out in the
base
allows the inner 3 of the 5 top rivets in the joint to remain, and the
bracket is held in place by the outer two rivets in each rib overlap.

Since I am not installing the inner floor, the RG-1's supplied would hold
the elevator cables too far apart to feed correctly into the rear pulleys
if
mounted side by side on the ribs.

It may be useful for the Rebel/SR as well, but I'm not sure what these
designs are like.

He will make up some more if anyone is interested, let me know direct (
admin@airnig.co.uk ).

Nigel
745E


---------- Digest Message #3 ----------
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 09:44:39 +0100
From: admin@airnig.co.uk
To: rebel-builders
Subject: Skype

Hi All

Don't know if anyone on the group uses the Skype internet phone, but if
anyone fancies a chat some time about their project I'm registered as
airnig
if you do a search.

It will also allow conference calls if set-up correctly so a group chat is
possible.

It's speech only so should work with dial up connections (I think ! )

www.skype.com


Nigel
745E


---------- Digest Message #4 ----------
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 06:36:18 -0700
From: walter.klatt@shaw.ca
To: rebel-builders
Subject: RE: Skype

I'm on this Skype, too, and have just chatted with Nigel as well.
There is a one or two second delay, and you have to learn to
pause and not both talk at the same time, similar to conference
calling. And you need a good microphone on your computer. But it
works just fine otherwise and is simple enough to use.

Bob P, not sure if you guys have computer access where you have
your builders' meetings, but this would be a good way for us
remote guys to listen in. And if you have a webcam, even better,
for your show and tell stuff. Not sure how we can share your
doughnuts, though.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
N.Smith
Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2005 1:45 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Skype


Hi All

Don't know if anyone on the group uses the Skype
internet phone, but if
anyone fancies a chat some time about their project
I'm registered as airnig
if you do a search.

It will also allow conference calls if set-up
correctly so a group chat is
possible.

It's speech only so should work with dial up
connections (I think ! )

www.skype.com


Nigel
745E




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---------- Digest Message #5 ----------
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 07:24:27 -0700
From: walter.klatt@shaw.ca
To: rebel-builders
Subject: RE: Float Ramble 2006 to Lake Temagami ??!!

Just looking at the 2006 calendar, and here are some dates that
might work for me, and fit with Bob P's suggestion.

Arlington runs from Wed July 5 to Sun July 9 in 2006. So if you
guys from the East can time it to be here for that, we join up
with you there.

Then on Sun head north to BC and Chilliwack/Langley, and spend a
few days local flying around the South Coast. There are a lot of
neat little airports and spots to visit here and on the Island,
for those on wheels only. And with the floatplanes, I can show
you some of my favourite spots, including my place out at
Harrison Lake. And Al P., I'm quite sure that any place we can go
(and get out) with our Rebels, your Moose will be OK, too. Will
pass on Snow Cap lake for now...

Then, would like to head further north to the annual Nimpo Lake
floatplane fly-in on July 15th. It's only a 3 hour flight from
Vancouver, but we could plan to be there a day or two before, to
check out the sights there, and then head out for parts east on
Sun Jul 16. I have to miss Nimpo this year, because my son is
getting married then, but sure would like to do it again next
year. No problem for wheel airplanes either, as they have a grass
strip there, too. And if the wheel guys want friendlier terrain
to fly over, there are safer land routes to get there, too, but
it might take you an extra hour or so.

From Nimpo, we could then take the north route across BC, Alta,

Sask, and Manitoba as we head into Ont. If we take our time, that
would put us at Wayne's place around Sun Jul 22, and give us a
week or so there, before Osh, for those that want to do that.

Anyway, that's my suggestion. How does that sound to you guys? I
still have to figure out how to get away from work for that long,
but that's my problem.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of Bob
Patterson
Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2005 10:04 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Cc: rebel-ramble@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Float Ramble 2006 to Lake Temagami ??!!



FWIW, i would suggest coming out here about
the 2nd week
in July, then heading down to Oshkosh on the way back. August
here tends to get hot & steamy, with poor vis. - a lot
like flying in
a hot milk bottle ! :-( Weather across
the prairies is usually
good in early July ....

Unfortunately, I may STILL not have my amphibs
! :-( :-(

Maybe we can plan the Ramble to go west in
early July, and
all fly back together .......

.....bobp


-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Monday 13 June 2005 11:20 pm, Al Paxhia wrote:

It sounds like a great trip to me, lets start

planning. I was thinking a

stop in Oshkosh on the way going or returning.
Al
----- Original Message -----
From: "Daryl C. W. O'Shea" <dos@dostech.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 8:07 PM
Subject: Re: Float Ramble 2006 to Lake Temagami ??!!

degrees warmer.

this type of weather

go, we should talk this

Meanwhile, am looking forward to

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---------- Digest Message #6 ----------
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 10:23:22 -0700 (PDT)
From: fdarnell@carolina.rr.com
To: rebel-builders
Subject: Re: Re: Prop Extension

Thanks Al and Dale. I just got a confirmation from Murphy that a spacer is
intended for the 4 cyl / Elite installation.

When I mounted my spinner on the crank prop flange it seemed my starter
protruded too far forward and interfered with the lower cowl and I began
to
suspect an extension would be necessary. I think the ring-gear mounted
spinner I had was the problem. I've learned from several others that a
flange mounted spinner is best. Once I have one I'll try again.

Al, what spinner do you have?

Thanks for the help.

On Thu, 16 Jun 2005 08:33:50 -0700 Dale Fultz <dfultz17086@earthlink.net>

wrote.

Hi Al, in the instructions for the cowling it says to put a 2 inch
extension on to mount to. Dale SR 033
----- Original Message -----
From: "Al Paxhia" <paxhia2@comcast.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2005 6:25 AM
Subject: Re: Prop Extension

Fred,
I did not use a spacer with my IO540 with a Hartzell HC-C3YR-1RF/F8475R.
What manual are you referring to?
Al

----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred Darnell" <fdarnell@carolina.rr.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 8:27 PM
Subject: Prop Extension




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---------- Digest Message #7 ----------
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 10:36:31 -0400
From: jcole@rangroup.com
To: rebel-builders
Subject: Re: Float Ramble 2006 to Lake Temagami ??!!

I think I have to get a plane finished and cash in an RRSP - it sounds
that good!

Cheers
Jim
SR083Moose

Walter Klatt wrote:

Just looking at the 2006 calendar, and here are some dates that
might work for me, and fit with Bob P's suggestion.

Arlington runs from Wed July 5 to Sun July 9 in 2006. So if you
guys from the East can time it to be here for that, we join up
with you there.

Then on Sun head north to BC and Chilliwack/Langley, and spend a
few days local flying around the South Coast. There are a lot of
neat little airports and spots to visit here and on the Island,
for those on wheels only. And with the floatplanes, I can show
you some of my favourite spots, including my place out at
Harrison Lake. And Al P., I'm quite sure that any place we can go
(and get out) with our Rebels, your Moose will be OK, too. Will
pass on Snow Cap lake for now...

Then, would like to head further north to the annual Nimpo Lake
floatplane fly-in on July 15th. It's only a 3 hour flight from
Vancouver, but we could plan to be there a day or two before, to
check out the sights there, and then head out for parts east on
Sun Jul 16. I have to miss Nimpo this year, because my son is
getting married then, but sure would like to do it again next
year. No problem for wheel airplanes either, as they have a grass
strip there, too. And if the wheel guys want friendlier terrain
to fly over, there are safer land routes to get there, too, but
it might take you an extra hour or so.

From Nimpo, we could then take the north route across BC, Alta,

Sask, and Manitoba as we head into Ont. If we take our time, that
would put us at Wayne's place around Sun Jul 22, and give us a
week or so there, before Osh, for those that want to do that.

Anyway, that's my suggestion. How does that sound to you guys? I
still have to figure out how to get away from work for that long,
but that's my problem.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of Bob
Patterson
Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2005 10:04 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Cc: rebel-ramble@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Float Ramble 2006 to Lake Temagami ??!!



FWIW, i would suggest coming out here about
the 2nd week
in July, then heading down to Oshkosh on the way back. August
here tends to get hot & steamy, with poor vis. - a lot
like flying in
a hot milk bottle ! :-( Weather across
the prairies is usually
good in early July ....

Unfortunately, I may STILL not have my amphibs
! :-( :-(

Maybe we can plan the Ramble to go west in
early July, and
all fly back together .......

.....bobp


-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Monday 13 June 2005 11:20 pm, Al Paxhia wrote:

planning. I was thinking a

degrees warmer.

this type of weather

go, we should talk this

Meanwhile, am looking forward to

-------------------------------------------------------
----------

-------------------------------------------------------
----------


-------------------------------------------------------
----------

-------------------------------------------------------
----------



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---------- Digest Message #8 ----------
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 11:27:28 -0700
From: paxhia2@comcast.net
To: rebel-builders
Subject: Re: Skype

I use Skype, my user name is: amphibpilot
Al
----- Original Message -----
From: "N.Smith" <admin@airnig.co.uk>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2005 1:44 AM
Subject: Skype

Hi All

Don't know if anyone on the group uses the Skype internet phone, but if
anyone fancies a chat some time about their project I'm registered as
airnig
if you do a search.

It will also allow conference calls if set-up correctly so a group chat
is
possible.

It's speech only so should work with dial up connections (I think ! )

www.skype.com


Nigel
745E




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---------- Digest Message #9 ----------
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 14:55:24 -0400
From: lbpollock@sympatico.ca
To: rebel-builders
Subject: Fuel Cap Locatoin

Hi all, I am working on my 50 gallon fuel tank,that's 5 bays out and was
wondering were the best location for the filler neck.I was thinking does
it have to go way out bay 5 on the wing or can I put it closer in?

Thanks

Bill
Moose 244

---------- Digest Message #10 ----------
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 13:29:20 -0600
From: sa@mwutah.com
To: rebel-builders
Subject: RE: Fuel Cap Locatoin

Bill,

Are you installing flush caps or ones with a filler neck? I think they
put
the flush caps out at the high point, but if you have a filler neck you
can
go at least into the outboard corner of bay three and still get the tank
basically full.

We have the 60 gallon per side and the MAM installed flush caps are in bay
5
(they didn't use bay 6 because the strut is at the high point on the
camber). I installed additional caps with filler necks in bay three and
have steps and handles on the fuselage so I can fill without a ladder if
needed. Ron K's is this way and it seems to fill almost to the top with
the
inboard caps.

Here is my ACS non vented cap (picture is before riveting on with proseal)

http://www.goflyamoose.com/images/Wings/Wings-18.jpg


Scott
Moose 174

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
pollock
Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2005 12:55 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Fuel Cap Locatoin

Hi all, I am working on my 50 gallon fuel tank,that's 5 bays out and was
wondering were the best location for the filler neck.I was thinking does
it have to go way out bay 5 on the wing or can I put it closer in?

Thanks

Bill
Moose 244



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[Gilles St-Pierre]

Al
congratulation. Im anxious to do the same
good luck
gilles e717





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[Brent Blue]

At 04:00 PM 8/10/2005 -0800, you wrote:

But following the posts here I was wondering if we put up a group effort
calling or e-mailing MAM that something might get done to resolve this issue?

I suggest everyone give Daryl a call.

Brent
088 Moose



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[Brent Blue]

At 04:00 PM 10/19/2005 -0800, you wrote:

---------- Digest Message #16 ----------
Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 15:36:10 -0400
From: dfultz17086@earthlink.net
To: rebel-builders
Subject: Re: Problems with MAM/Moose--Open Letter to Darryl

Hi Brent, Could you please fill me and the others in that are not aware of
a problem with this FUS- 309 & 310 and what the problems are with it and the
problems of the fuselage at the windscreen area. We certainly would
apreciate it if it is a saftey issue. Thanks Dale SR-033

Dale:

The 310 was left out of most of the last quick builds and MAM did nothing
to notify the owners.

In addition, there is a significant upgrade in the "new" 310s which require
about 40-60 hours to retrofit but significantly beef up the
gear. This was in response to the gear failure in Washington. Also,
nothing from MAM about this to the owners.

Brent






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[rickhm]

Has anyone posted pictures of these upgrades? Have other builder's received them yet or are they a plan?

Rick Muller
SR70

-------------- Original message --------------

At 04:00 PM 10/19/2005 -0800, you wrote:

---------- Digest Message #16 ----------
Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 15:36:10 -0400
From: dfultz17086@earthlink.net
To: rebel-builders
Subject: Re: Problems with MAM/Moose--Open Letter to Darryl

Hi Brent, Could you please fill me and the others in that are not aware of
a problem with this FUS- 309 & 310 and what the problems are with it and the
problems of the fuselage at the windscreen area. We certainly would
apreciate it if it is a saftey issue. Thanks Dale SR-033

Dale:

The 310 was left out of most of the last quick builds and MAM did nothing
to notify the owners.

In addition, there is a significant upgrade in the "new" 310s which require
about 40-60 hours to retrofit but significantly beef up the
gear. This was in response to the gear failure in Washington. Also,
nothing from MAM about this to the owners.

Brent






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[Randy Straeten]

I have a rebel tail kit, toolkit along with a few extra tools for sale.
The kit was purchased in 2000 and so far only the flaperons have been
completed. Unfortunately business demands and now the need to finish my
basement means I don't think I will have time to complete this kit for a
long time. I still have the crate and everything that came with it from
Murphy. If anyone is interested they can call me at 705-426-9635 or
e-mail randy@nanllc.com. I have an $800.00 credit with Murphy that I
believe may still be also good. I am open to offers.

Thanks
Randy


-----Original Message-----
From: rebel-builders-d digest [mailto:rebel-builders-d@dcsol.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 7:00 PM
To: rebel-builders-d@dcsol.com
Subject: DIGEST - rebel-builders-d

Digest of list: rebel-builders-d Total messages in digest: 16

1 Date : Wed, 07 Dec 2005 20:27:32 -0400
From : daricker@chebucto.ns.ca
Subject: Re: Aileron Controls

2 Date : Wed, 07 Dec 2005 17:10:20 -0800
From : jessejenks@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: Rebel Wing Tips

3 Date : Wed, 07 Dec 2005 21:02:10 -0500
From : klehman@albedo.net
Subject: Re: Rebel Wing Tips

4 Date : Wed, 7 Dec 2005 23:40:30 EST
From : normisler@aol.com
Subject: Re: Elite cable routing

5 Date : Wed, 7 Dec 2005 22:19:08 -0700
From : sa@mwutah.com
Subject: Moose tail wheel pivot angle

6 Date : Thu, 8 Dec 2005 07:54:10 -0500
From : ahepburn@renc.igs.net
Subject: Re: Control sticks

7 Date : Thu, 8 Dec 2005 07:57:18 -0500
From : ahepburn@renc.igs.net
Subject: Re: intercoms

8 Date : Thu, 8 Dec 2005 10:32:14 -0500
From : mbetti@up.net
Subject: Re: Control sticks

9 Date : Thu, 08 Dec 2005 17:49:28 +0000
From : srwhitenect@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: intercoms

10 Date : Thu, 08 Dec 2005 12:57:09 -0500
From : klehman@albedo.net
Subject: Re: Moose tail wheel pivot angle

11 Date : Thu, 8 Dec 2005 13:28:28 -0600
From : jtpackard@usfamily.net
Subject: SR/Moose Rudder deflection

12 Date : Thu, 8 Dec 2005 12:29:27 -0700
From : sa@mwutah.com
Subject: RE: Moose tail wheel pivot angle

13 Date : Thu, 08 Dec 2005 10:51:56 -0900
From : mkimball@gci.net
Subject: RE: SR/Moose Rudder deflection

14 Date : Thu, 8 Dec 2005 13:00:19 -0700
From : sa@mwutah.com
Subject: RE: SR/Moose Rudder deflection

15 Date : Thu, 8 Dec 2005 12:12:29 -0800 (PST)
From : aircrafttips@yahoo.com
Subject: Wing tips, Rebel,Elite & Moose

16 Date : Thu, 08 Dec 2005 12:14:20 -0800
From : westcoastkitplanes@shaw.ca
Subject: Re: Rebel Wing Tips


---------- Digest Message #1 ----------
Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 20:27:32 -0400
From: daricker@chebucto.ns.ca
To: rebel-builders
Subject: Re: Aileron Controls

It wouldn't be the first time.....& we're not that far yet.

Dave

"Wayne G. O'Shea" wrote:

Guess we've (You've) discoverd late that there's another spot in the
Elite assembly manual that is VERY lacking Mike!

Anyone keeping track?....... making a (manual discrepancy) list and
checking it twice.....gonna send MAM an email that's not nice.......

----- Original Message -----
From: <mbetti@up.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2005 11:52 AM
Subject: Re: Aileron Controls

Not in my electronic manual, seat rail installation is in group 16.
and no

measurements there. Groupl 12 is the stab.

Mike

On Wed, 7 Dec 2005 10:04:12 -0500, rebel-builders@dcsol.com said:

Yep...always been there as Ken has pointed out. Look at the
measurements

and

the note under it.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken" <klehman@albedo.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2005 8:49 AM
Subject: Re: Aileron Controls

person builds until you start fitting controls.

said:

than

finding

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--
David A. Ricker
Fall River, Nova Scotia
Canada




---------- Digest Message #2 ----------
Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 17:10:20 -0800
From: jessejenks@hotmail.com
To: rebel-builders
Subject: Re: Rebel Wing Tips

Thanks Jeff,
It looks like quite a bit of work. It looks like you put some inspection
holes out there. Are those just for accessing the flaperon hinge bolts
and attach bolts? Do you have wing strobes, and if so do you have the
power pack out there? I was just getting ready to install nutplates for
attaching the wing tips, whichever ones I use, but I see from your
pictures that the droop tip becomes a semi-permanent part of the wing,
so nutplates along the rib flange won't do any good. Maybe I'll just go
with a single fuselage mounted strobe and forget about it.
Jesse

From: Jeff McMurrer <westcoastkitplanes@shaw.ca>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Rebel Wing Tips
Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 00:21:37 -0800

Jesse,

I've uploaded some more pics of the Droop Tip install on the Rebel.
This is all I could find in the midst of the hundreds of photos of the

build.

The Droop Tips are MAM approved for the Rebel, as the MAM Rebel
demonstrator does have these droop tips installed.

As far as technical questions, such as loading, etc. THOSE QUESTIONS
would be better answered by MAM.

Jeff


----- Original Message -----
From: Jesse Jenks <jessejenks@hotmail.com>
Date: Monday, December 5, 2005 8:46 am
Subject: Re: Rebel Wing Tips

Jeff,
I would like to see more pictures. Thank you. Your plane looks great

by the way. Maybe you could give us some performance numbers to
compare with Rebels using Fife tips.
I have planned to put the strobe power packs in the wings with
access through the tip for maintenance or replacement. I might have
to rethink that if I use the droop tips.
I have done a little google searching on wing tip design, and there
are definitely differing opinions on what works best. Some sources
say tip design makes little difference on low speed aircraft. An
example given is the Mooney. They are supposedly the most efficient
light aircraft (not including experimentals I'm sure) and they have
squared off wing tips. I know some of you swear by the Fife tips,
but I would bet the performance increases are mainly due to a bit
more wing area over the standard MAM tips so if the MAM droop tips
add still more area they could be the best yet.
On the structural issue, if MAM is producing and selling these tips
for the Rebel then they must approve their use right?
Jesse

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---------- Digest Message #3 ----------
Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 21:02:10 -0500
From: klehman@albedo.net
To: rebel-builders
Subject: Re: Rebel Wing Tips

Jesse
Off topic, but if you install those nutplates now, do you have someway
of aligning and drilling the holes in the tips later? Usually you want
the tips on first, then drill, then nutplates.
Ken

Jesse Jenks wrote:

Thanks Jeff,
It looks like quite a bit of work. It looks like you put some
inspection holes out there. Are those just for accessing the flaperon
hinge bolts and attach bolts? Do you have wing strobes, and if so do
you have the power pack out there? I was just getting ready to install
nutplates for attaching the wing tips, whichever ones I use, but I see
from your pictures that the droop tip becomes a semi-permanent part of
the wing, so nutplates along the rib flange won't do any good. Maybe
I'll just go with a single fuselage mounted strobe and forget about it.
Jesse

---------- Digest Message #4 ----------
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 23:40:30 EST
From: normisler@aol.com
To: rebel-builders
Subject: Re: Elite cable routing

I realize this thread is pretty well exhausted, but a thought came
to mind after reading the lexan template idea. Once a clear template is
in place, why not use a small, hand held laser pointer. Hold it against
the rudder horn (start point of the cable route) and aim at the point
inside the fuse where you plan to place the first pulley or fairlead.
The point where the laser illuminates the template is where you make the
hole. You could sight in reverse from inside the fuse to verify the
location.

Am I missing something, or is this just too simple?

Norm


---------- Digest Message #5 ----------
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 22:19:08 -0700
From: sa@mwutah.com
To: rebel-builders
Subject: Moose tail wheel pivot angle

Here are two more articles on tail wheel caster angle. If you can
decipher these you are doing pretty good.



Caster angle definition - http://vaa15.org/tips/2004-7.html

Tire wear and shimmy - http://vaa15.org/tips/2004-10.html





The tail wheel manufactures are not much help either. Matco did respond
and they say it should be set up so the pivot plane is horizontal when
loaded.



The reason the concern on the pivot angle started with the design of the
new aftermarket stingers Dale is working on (since MAM can't seem to
make it happen). If I understand Dale's new forward bracket correctly
it is not adjustable up and down so there is now way to change the angle
of the stinger so he wants to get it right from the get go. If the
stinger has the
9.5 bend at the tail wheel attach end like the only prototype stinger
that is on Ted's you will be starting with a pivot angle already fairly
negative (as defined in this diagram
http://merlin.alleg.edu/group/eaa1194/graphics/tws.jpg ) which is not
ideal (from most peoples perspective, but not all).



I see some guys prefer a slightly negative angle but I suspect it is
just a degree or so and not a noticeable visual angle like on Ted's
current set up
http://www.i1ci.com/Flying/Moose/Tail/I ... pTailW.jpg



So far no one that I have personally talked to (all guys with thousands
of TW time) likes to set it up with the negative angle and I couldn't
find any at the airport set obviously negative but a lot obviously
positive. A search of the Super Cub forum found most (but not all)
agreeing that when the tail leaf spring gets old or flattened out and
the tail wheel goes negative shimmy gets worse.



So what is the ideal pivot angle? - I guess what ever works.



FWIW.



Scott

Moose 174









---------- Digest Message #6 ----------
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 07:54:10 -0500
From: ahepburn@renc.igs.net
To: rebel-builders
Subject: Re: Control sticks

Mike:

The stick can now does not touch the panel, or the headphone jack
brackets, or the central console, at any point in its travel. The
closest it comes to the lower edge of the panel on its way forward is
1/8", and that is between the housing for the PTT switch and the panel.
I used the RAC G101 grip from ACS.

Al



---------- Digest Message #7 ----------
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 07:57:18 -0500
From: ahepburn@renc.igs.net
To: rebel-builders
Subject: Re: intercoms

The replacement intercom I got after ditching the Sigtronics one was
from NAT. It is not the cheapest, but it works great and has lots of
volume. It cured all my radio and intercom problems at once. It does
not come with jacks.

Al



---------- Digest Message #8 ----------
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 10:32:14 -0500
From: mbetti@up.net
To: rebel-builders
Subject: Re: Control sticks


Ok thanks,
I measured my sticks lastnight and they have a 6" offset in the bends,
this puts the end of the raw stick with no grip just clearing my
electrical switches directly in front of the stick but hitting the
angled part of panel.
Mike Betti
771E

On Thu, 8 Dec 2005 07:54:10 -0500, rebel-builders@dcsol.com said:

Mike:

The stick can now does not touch the panel, or the headphone jack
brackets, or the central console, at any point in its travel. The
closest it comes to the lower edge of the panel on its way forward is
1/8", and that is between the housing for the PTT switch and the panel.

I used the RAC G101 grip from ACS.

Al





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---------- Digest Message #9 ----------
Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 17:49:28 +0000
From: srwhitenect@hotmail.com
To: rebel-builders
Subject: Re: intercoms

I used the softcom on my last plane and it came with everything and I
think it's about the same price. Worked great. Just wired my dash on
Rebel #637and used the Garmin SL-40 radio and GTX320A transponder.
Thanks to a buddy, I returned my intercom as the Garmin has one built
in. Not specified in the feature listings in AS&S catalog. Seems to
work really well in the garage! Something else I didn't have to install
or pay for. Other than the headset/jack wiring, all it required was
another wire to a switch to ground to activate the intercom.

Steve W

From: "Alan Hepburn" <ahepburn@renc.igs.net>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Subject: Re: intercoms
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 07:57:18 -0500

The replacement intercom I got after ditching the Sigtronics one was
from NAT. It is not the cheapest, but it works great and has lots of

volume.

It
cured all my radio and intercom problems at once. It does not come
with jacks.

Al





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---------- Digest Message #10 ----------
Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 12:57:09 -0500
From: klehman@albedo.net
To: rebel-builders
Subject: Re: Moose tail wheel pivot angle

Hi Scott

So far I haven't seen an analysis that convinces me. The most extreme
negative angle that I've seen was on a Scott equipped Rebel with that
stiff aluminum spring and he said it never shimmied but was somewhat
difficult to turn. No surprise there. The pivot angle may be the easiest
thing to change but I don't believe it is the most important factor.

Did you notice in the two pics that you referenced how much more aft the
tailwheel axle is on the Scott? A yoke that keeps the wheel forward like
on the Moose pic is not likely to be very tolerant of positive castor
IMO. (ie. with a vertical pivot axis, the extended vertical pivot axis
passes much closer to the axle on the Moose) For a Scott or similar I
suspect Matco's advice to target zero is as good as you are likely to
get and some positive is probably also fine. However personally FWIW I'd
favour vertical or probably a bit of negative with that Moose tailwheel,
especially if it worked well for Ted.

Lots of ideas out there but I don't see much effort to quantify the
effect and there is lots of mud in the water. A nugget in the article
may be the reference to tailspring torsion. Something like a thin single
leaf steel spring that twists easily has got to be far more prone to
shimmy. When I measured them, even the old fibreglass Rebel spring was
stiffer in torsion than a one leaf steel spring. A multi leaf was
better. A thick aluminum spring should also be better than a single
thinner steel one. A round cross section stinger would probably be best
but of course there are other considerations.

Ken

Scott Aldrich wrote:

Here are two more articles on tail wheel caster angle. If you can
decipher these you are doing pretty good.



Caster angle definition - http://vaa15.org/tips/2004-7.html

Tire wear and shimmy - http://vaa15.org/tips/2004-10.html



The tail wheel manufactures are not much help either. Matco did
respond and they say it should be set up so the pivot plane is

horizontal when loaded.
snip


---------- Digest Message #11 ----------
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 13:28:28 -0600
From: jtpackard@usfamily.net
To: rebel-builders
Subject: SR/Moose Rudder deflection

Question for those flying a SR or Moose. I'm just about to rivet the
rudder deflection stops in place. Has everyone put the stops in for 25
deg max ? and would you recommend staying with that or increasing or
decreasing it some amount?
Thanks,
Tom Packard
SR043


--- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! --
http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! ---


---------- Digest Message #12 ----------
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 12:29:27 -0700
From: sa@mwutah.com
To: rebel-builders
Subject: RE: Moose tail wheel pivot angle

Thanks Ken,

Scott
-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Ken
Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 10:57 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Moose tail wheel pivot angle

Hi Scott

So far I haven't seen an analysis that convinces me. The most extreme
negative angle that I've seen was on a Scott equipped Rebel with that
stiff aluminum spring and he said it never shimmied but was somewhat
difficult to turn. No surprise there. The pivot angle may be the easiest
thing to change but I don't believe it is the most important factor.

Did you notice in the two pics that you referenced how much more aft the
tailwheel axle is on the Scott? A yoke that keeps the wheel forward like
on the Moose pic is not likely to be very tolerant of positive castor
IMO. (ie. with a vertical pivot axis, the extended vertical pivot axis
passes much closer to the axle on the Moose) For a Scott or similar I
suspect Matco's advice to target zero is as good as you are likely to
get and some positive is probably also fine. However personally FWIW I'd
favour vertical or probably a bit of negative with that Moose tailwheel,
especially if it worked well for Ted.

Lots of ideas out there but I don't see much effort to quantify the
effect and there is lots of mud in the water. A nugget in the article
may be the reference to tailspring torsion. Something like a thin single
leaf steel spring that twists easily has got to be far more prone to
shimmy. When I measured them, even the old fibreglass Rebel spring was
stiffer in torsion than a one leaf steel spring. A multi leaf was
better. A thick aluminum spring should also be better than a single
thinner steel one. A round cross section stinger would probably be best
but of course there are other considerations.

Ken

Scott Aldrich wrote:

Here are two more articles on tail wheel caster angle. If you can
decipher these you are doing pretty good.



Caster angle definition - http://vaa15.org/tips/2004-7.html

Tire wear and shimmy - http://vaa15.org/tips/2004-10.html



The tail wheel manufactures are not much help either. Matco did
respond

and

they say it should be set up so the pivot plane is horizontal when

loaded.
snip




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---------- Digest Message #13 ----------
Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 10:51:56 -0900
From: mkimball@gci.net
To: rebel-builders
Subject: RE: SR/Moose Rudder deflection

I don't have an opinion about whether 25 degrees is the right amount but
I do have a related comment. I put my rudder stops on for 25 degrees
using just the rudder. I made the mistake of just assuming the elevator
would have the proper clearance for 25 degrees since that is what MAM
recommends.
Wrong. I ended up moving the elevator ribs and cutting the elevator
skins a bit to open it up enough to get 25 degrees from the rudder
without hitting the elevator. Might want to check that. If you have a
clearance problem like I did then your decision will be whether to do
what I did or accept less than 25 degrees rudder deflection.

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
jtpackard@usfamily.net
Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 10:28 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: SR/Moose Rudder deflection

Question for those flying a SR or Moose. I'm just about to rivet the
rudder deflection stops in place. Has everyone put the stops in for 25
deg max ?
and would you recommend staying with that or increasing or decreasing it
some amount?
Thanks,
Tom Packard
SR043


--- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! --
http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! ---




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---------- Digest Message #14 ----------
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 13:00:19 -0700
From: sa@mwutah.com
To: rebel-builders
Subject: RE: SR/Moose Rudder deflection

I put the stops in after the elevator was on and just went with max
throw leaving clearance for the elevator. Don't really know what it is
in degrees.

Scott

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
jtpackard@usfamily.net
Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 12:28 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: SR/Moose Rudder deflection

Question for those flying a SR or Moose. I'm just about to rivet the
rudder deflection stops in place. Has everyone put the stops in for 25
deg max ?
and would you recommend staying with that or increasing or decreasing it
some amount?
Thanks,
Tom Packard
SR043


--- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! --
http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! ---




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---------- Digest Message #15 ----------
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 12:12:29 -0800 (PST)
From: aircrafttips@yahoo.com
To: rebel-builders
Subject: Wing tips, Rebel,Elite & Moose

To all builders,

I am still around. I have been detained with family matters for the
past 2 months that took all of my time. With the passing of my Father
in Law and the care of my mother in law I have had no time for anything.
I do apologize to all of you. To those that have orders with me, I am
sorry for the delays. We all will go through this eventually.

It is now freezing cold in mid Michigan, USA. The Canadians have sent
a cold front that has froze everything. Winter has begun early.

I am now back into the shop, am still putting heat in and expect to
get down to making parts. Please be patient, I am not going anywhere
and the new shop will be more productive eventually.

Now on to the size of wing tips. Those that have the Moose and Elite,
I am still in the process of completing the molds. I will not make tips
the size of MAM's. I cannot supply a part that changes the length of
the wing that much. I am not sure of the exact size, have no test
results and will not ask MAM for those. My tips will be Hoerner style
and will extend past the aileron about 6 inches. I believe the standard
tip is about 2 inches past the aileron.
I do not know what the results will be as I have not had them tested.
I will report those when they happen.

Bob P stated it correctly that I was informed by Darryl to make the
Rebel parts as close to the factory size and it would not cause any
problems. There is the arm/moment and leverage concern. I am not an
engineer and do not claim to be. I will not speculate any further than
that. With all the e-mails lately their is lots of talk.

I think you all know that the wing on all 3 planes are the same in
cord and thickness, just longer and different aileron positions.

Finally, please do not send any deposits at this time. I do not want
to take your funds and not be able to supply the parts timely. I am
still in a back log as it is. It will get better.

Should anyone have photos of the Moose or Elite wing with or without
tips please sent those to me. I need to verify the exact differences in
the Rebel and the Moose/Elite wing. If you have a Moose or Elite with
any tips on them I would also be interested in those too.

Please respond directly to my e-mail on the photos, and do not post
them on the rebel-builder page.

Again, a special thanks to a lot of people and their support in my
products.

Let the talk continue, I love to read the e-mail.




David K. Fife
3D Composite Aircraft Parts Inc.
428 N. Linwood Beach Rd
Linwood, MI. 48634
989-697-3277
Long EZ in progress.
www.stormpages.com/3dcomposite/wingtip.html



---------------------------------
Yahoo! Shopping
Find Great Deals on Holiday Gifts at Yahoo! Shopping

---------- Digest Message #16 ----------
Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 12:14:20 -0800
From: westcoastkitplanes@shaw.ca
To: rebel-builders
Subject: Re: Rebel Wing Tips

Jesse,

Putting the Droop Tips on the Rebel took me a bit of time, ONLY because
there was no installation instructions at that time. My procedure in
putting the Droop Tips on the Rebel may vary from those of MAM.
Overall, I believe the extra time was well worth it.

Inspection holes are for putting the hinge bolts in. I have my bolt
holding the Tip TE rib secured to the hinge.

We only installed NAV lights on the tips. We put a single strobe on the
Rebels top side.

Jeff




----- Original Message -----
From: Jesse Jenks <jessejenks@hotmail.com>
Date: Wednesday, December 7, 2005 5:10 pm
Subject: Re: Rebel Wing Tips

Thanks Jeff,
It looks like quite a bit of work. It looks like you put some
inspection holes out there. Are those just for accessing the flaperon
hinge bolts and attach bolts? Do you have wing strobes, and if so do
you have the power pack out there? I was just getting ready to install

nutplates for attaching the wing tips, whichever ones I use, but I see

from your pictures that the droop tip becomes a semi-permanent part of

the wing, so nutplates along the rib flange won't do any good. Maybe
I'll just go with a single fuselage mounted strobe and forget about
it.
Jesse

----------




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[Bob Strate]

Please remove me from your list, thankyou..
Bob Strate
-----Original Message-----
From: rebel-builders-d@dcsol.com (rebel-builders-d digest)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 15:00:04
To:rebel-builders-d@dcsol.com
Subject: DIGEST - rebel-builders-d

Digest of list: rebel-builders-d Total messages in digest: 8

1 Date : Fri, 30 Dec 2005 17:16:12 -0900
From : mkimball@gci.net
Subject: Continuing V8 saga

2 Date : Fri, 30 Dec 2005 17:48:42 -0900
From : mkimball@gci.net
Subject: RE: Continuing V8 saga

3 Date : Fri, 30 Dec 2005 23:36:44 -0500
From : beep@sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: CG of Subaru Rebel ?

4 Date : Fri, 30 Dec 2005 20:22:19 -0900
From : pequeajim@dcsol.com
Subject: Jim's Glass panel concept

5 Date : Sat, 31 Dec 2005 09:08:46 -0500
From : klehman@albedo.net
Subject: Re: CG of Subaru Rebel ?

6 Date : Sat, 31 Dec 2005 08:28:52 -0900
From : bransom@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Fuel of Subaru Rebel ?

7 Date : Sat, 31 Dec 2005 12:34:51 -0500
From : beep@sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: CG of Subaru Rebel ?

8 Date : Sat, 31 Dec 2005 16:28:51 -0500
From : klehman@albedo.net
Subject: Re: Fuel of Subaru Rebel ?


---------- Digest Message #1 ----------
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 17:16:12 -0900
From: mkimball@gci.net
To: rebel-builders
Subject: Continuing V8 saga

I ran the engine a few more times yesterday and today. This time I had dye
in the oil. Here's what I discovered.

1. The head bolt oil leaks are gone. No sign of new oil on the head bolts.
One theory is that the preservative on the studs for corrosion resistance
for shipping and shelf life migrated up the studs and is now all gone.
Theory number two: I cranked down on the valve covers more than I would
normally do. Maybe the first time the source of the oil was indeed the
valve covers and I just didn't detect the oil path from there to the head
bolts. I am personally leaning towards theory number two. I also checked
everywhere else. Nothing else is leaking. Oil pan, front and rear oil
seals, etc., dry as a bone. Yay.

2. Ignition #1 on my dual MSD ignition is not working now. It was working
just fine the last time I ran the engine. I can't find anything simple like
a loose wire. Dangit!

3. I removed the thermostat for this test. Coolant ran out of the overflow
right away and then on and off while running the engine. The coolant
pressure never exceeded 5 psi. My cap is 16 psi. How is the coolant
getting to the overflow port past the cap seal? You guessed it.
Contamination on the cap seal. Whattaya suppose it was? Aluminum shavings,
of course. Must have gotten on the cap when I set it aside at some point.
Cleaned the cap and I didn't get another leak until the coolant pressure
reached 16 psi on my last run. My coolant temp was fluctuating all over the
place. I'm sure it was because I'm a bit low on coolant and the thermostat
housing is not a great place for the probe. I think the best solution is to
get an intake manifold with four point outlets. One on the "back" (front in
an airplane) to return coolant from there to the water pump and one for the
temp probe. Luckily, my water pump already has an extra return.

4. My mixture control doesn't seem to be working as expected except for the
idle cutoff position which will stop the engine. There is some thought that
it will respond more normally when the engine is under load, i.e., when the
prop is on.

5. On one run I saw very cold EGT, about 500 degrees! I could not
reproduce this. On most runs the EGT was solid at 1450 degrees F. On one
run it was a bit over 1600 degrees but I was messing with the mixture so
that could explain that. I adjusted the advance to 35 degrees at 2000 rpm
and the EGT settled in at about 1300 degrees and stayed there.

6. I put a -6AN to -4AN reducer in the oil line that feeds the gearbox. I
am still getting too much oil there since oil leaked out the breather. I
installed an in-line oil filter in the return from the gearbox to the engine
but I am not satisfied with the simple metal mesh that comprises the filter
element. It is clearly only intended to catch big stuff. I will probably
modify it with a smaller mesh. I wonder how small is too small restricting
the oil return?

7. Oil pressure was about 60 psi and oil temp maxed out at 200 degrees. I
shut the engine down when coolant temp reached 220 degrees. As mentioned
earlier, coolant pressure never got over 5 psi. The most I saw on a
previous long run (about 12 minutes) was 10-11 psi. My longest run this
time was about 5 minutes.

8. Despite all of these things, the engine runs and sounds awesome! I'm
going to upload a sound file that I collected during this testing to the
archives. Right now it's about 3 Meg as a .wav file. When I try to export
it from the program I used as an .mp3 it is only about 40K but it doesn't
sound right at all. I'll keep trying to get a reasonably sized sound file
that sounds right. In the mean time, you folks with high speed internet can
listen to the big file I uploaded.

Mike




---------- Digest Message #2 ----------
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 17:48:42 -0900
From: mkimball@gci.net
To: rebel-builders
Subject: RE: Continuing V8 saga

I found a sound file converter trial version online and converted the sound
file. I uploaded two files to the archives. One is about 600K and is
pretty decent quality. The other is 300K with reduced quality but is OK.
Can you imaging the heads turning when I fire up at the airport?! Have fun
you gearheads.

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Mike
Kimball
Sent: Friday, December 30, 2005 5:16 PM
To: Rebel Builder's List
Subject: Continuing V8 saga

I ran the engine a few more times yesterday and today. This time I had dye
in the oil. Here's what I discovered.

1. The head bolt oil leaks are gone. No sign of new oil on the head bolts.
One theory is that the preservative on the studs for corrosion resistance
for shipping and shelf life migrated up the studs and is now all gone.
Theory number two: I cranked down on the valve covers more than I would
normally do. Maybe the first time the source of the oil was indeed the
valve covers and I just didn't detect the oil path from there to the head
bolts. I am personally leaning towards theory number two. I also checked
everywhere else. Nothing else is leaking. Oil pan, front and rear oil
seals, etc., dry as a bone. Yay.

2. Ignition #1 on my dual MSD ignition is not working now. It was working
just fine the last time I ran the engine. I can't find anything simple like
a loose wire. Dangit!

3. I removed the thermostat for this test. Coolant ran out of the overflow
right away and then on and off while running the engine. The coolant
pressure never exceeded 5 psi. My cap is 16 psi. How is the coolant
getting to the overflow port past the cap seal? You guessed it.
Contamination on the cap seal. Whattaya suppose it was? Aluminum shavings,
of course. Must have gotten on the cap when I set it aside at some point.
Cleaned the cap and I didn't get another leak until the coolant pressure
reached 16 psi on my last run. My coolant temp was fluctuating all over the
place. I'm sure it was because I'm a bit low on coolant and the thermostat
housing is not a great place for the probe. I think the best solution is to
get an intake manifold with four point outlets. One on the "back" (front in
an airplane) to return coolant from there to the water pump and one for the
temp probe. Luckily, my water pump already has an extra return.

4. My mixture control doesn't seem to be working as expected except for the
idle cutoff position which will stop the engine. There is some thought that
it will respond more normally when the engine is under load, i.e., when the
prop is on.

5. On one run I saw very cold EGT, about 500 degrees! I could not
reproduce this. On most runs the EGT was solid at 1450 degrees F. On one
run it was a bit over 1600 degrees but I was messing with the mixture so
that could explain that. I adjusted the advance to 35 degrees at 2000 rpm
and the EGT settled in at about 1300 degrees and stayed there.

6. I put a -6AN to -4AN reducer in the oil line that feeds the gearbox. I
am still getting too much oil there since oil leaked out the breather. I
installed an in-line oil filter in the return from the gearbox to the engine
but I am not satisfied with the simple metal mesh that comprises the filter
element. It is clearly only intended to catch big stuff. I will probably
modify it with a smaller mesh. I wonder how small is too small restricting
the oil return?

7. Oil pressure was about 60 psi and oil temp maxed out at 200 degrees. I
shut the engine down when coolant temp reached 220 degrees. As mentioned
earlier, coolant pressure never got over 5 psi. The most I saw on a
previous long run (about 12 minutes) was 10-11 psi. My longest run this
time was about 5 minutes.

8. Despite all of these things, the engine runs and sounds awesome! I'm
going to upload a sound file that I collected during this testing to the
archives. Right now it's about 3 Meg as a .wav file. When I try to export
it from the program I used as an .mp3 it is only about 40K but it doesn't
sound right at all. I'll keep trying to get a reasonably sized sound file
that sounds right. In the mean time, you folks with high speed internet can
listen to the big file I uploaded.

Mike






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---------- Digest Message #3 ----------
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 23:36:44 -0500
From: beep@sympatico.ca
To: rebel-builders
Subject: Re: CG of Subaru Rebel ?


Hi Ben !

Been away a couple of days ....

Unfortunately, Pierre's firewall WAS moved back - he bought a
partly built project, and the move was done even before final engine
choice ... :-( He does have a huge Odyssey battery right at
the end of the floor, AND a huge hydraulic pump for the floats
& skis, also at the rear ... probably well over 50 lb. back there !
And a light ( 9 lb. !) Prince prop up front. Not moving the
firewall gives you a full range of future engine choices, as well as
a better seating position, better visibility, and makes the panel
setup a lot easier for full-length avionics !

Most Rebels with EJ-22's have NOT had the firewall moved - and
the C of G's are usually in the 10.5 - 12 range -- mostly dependent
on battery position. Good to save securing the battery until you
can do a trial weight & balance, then just move it to the best spot !
Empty weights are usually in the 960 - 1060 range, when finished
and painted (The Sub & re-drive, with rad & coolant, is usually
only about 30 lb. or so more than a Lyc.) Of course, ALL of these
Rebels had the bungee gear, some with the die spring mod..
Most also had 3 blade or 4 blade Warp Drive props - the 4 blades
had a LOT of drag on approach - made for a steep approach, and
the engine windmilling up to 2500+ rpm !!

I've flown a few Sub Rebels, and even the stock EJ-22 works
very nicely - about 1,100 fpm climb, 105 - 110 mph cruise, on
about 5 - 6 gph mogas. The 180+ hp. modified ones are even more
exciting ! :-) And they're all SMOOOOOooooth ! ;-)
I do like the Marcotte redrive - compact & sturdy ! Most of
the early conversions used the Ross redrive - long, and some
gear problems - no longer available anyway ...

One had the stock Sub fuel pumps mounted in the bottom of
the wing tanks, on removeable plates - worked great ! The
return line came up to the roof, with a valve to direct return
flow to left or right tank, to aid in load balancing. Ideally,
the return line is not at the top of the tank, so the fuel
doesn't fall, picking up air & static .... One nice thing
about this is there were no fuel valves needed - just turn on
the pump on the tank you wanted to feed from ! ;-)
(Actually, it's still a good idea to install the valves -
for maintenance, etc. - also in the return line - just in case... )
Small valves at the bottom of the sight guages are also a
good idea - makes changing the tubes very fast & easy, and
adds a bit of safety.... (The 1/4" ones from the Renegage
work nicely ..)

The Murphy Rotax 912 cowling, with mods for easy opening,
worked very well, as the radiator mounting position was already
proven .... and it didn't look bad either !

.......bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Friday 30 December 2005 01:34 am, bransom@dcsol.com wrote:

Reading over some back posts, and thinking about engines, I've got a

couple

new questions...

Pierre's Rebel with XP-360 has a CG of ~13, empty wt of 1060.
Ken's Rebel with Sub EJ22 (and dual electrics, etc) has a CG of ~9, and

that

is with firewall moved back. Empty 1040.

Is Pierre's firewall moved back?
I had always guessed that a Subaru would tuck pretty close to the firewall
and present less of a concern for forward CG than Lycomings (unless the
redrive negates this?). How have other Subaru Rebels come out for CG, and
any with original firewall position?
Thanks,
-Ben/ 496R

---------- Digest Message #4 ----------
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 20:22:19 -0900
From: pequeajim@dcsol.com
To: rebel-builders
Subject: Jim's Glass panel concept

I have a pic in the Rebel Instrument panels file area. It is my concept of
what I would like to put in my airplane. I also want to keep the minimal of
standard gagues in case of a glass panel failure.

Any suggestions or comments are appreciated.

Jim!

---------- Digest Message #5 ----------
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 09:08:46 -0500
From: klehman@albedo.net
To: rebel-builders
Subject: Re: CG of Subaru Rebel ?

That still requires active fuel management though which is still a
frequent cause of "incidents".

If you can find a place to put it, I really like the use of a header
tank with fuel returning to it. No management required and no concern
about injesting air when low on fuel!

I also like returnless EFI which has been on a number of cars such as
the Neon for about 10 years now. Such systems seem more common every
year and don't seem to have any hot start issues. Not sure but I think
the 40 ish psi rail pressure is enough to prevent fuel boiling when the
engine is shutdown.

Ken

One had the stock Sub fuel pumps mounted in the bottom of
the wing tanks, on removeable plates - worked great ! The
return line came up to the roof, with a valve to direct return
flow to left or right tank, to aid in load balancing. Ideally,
the return line is not at the top of the tank, so the fuel
doesn't fall, picking up air & static .... One nice thing
about this is there were no fuel valves needed - just turn on
the pump on the tank you wanted to feed from ! ;-)

---------- Digest Message #6 ----------
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 08:28:52 -0900
From: bransom@dcsol.com
To: rebel-builders
Subject: Re: Fuel of Subaru Rebel ?

I recall from past Soob reading some concerns about vapor lock by returning
warm fuel to the header, as opposed to the main tanks (giving it distance and
volume to cool). What's your take on that Ken? Also, when you said that on
further consideration you might just use after-market external pumps, do you
mean that and no header?
-Ben

On 12/31/2005 5:08 AM, klehman@albedo.net wrote to rebel-builders:

That still requires active fuel management though which is still a
frequent cause of "incidents".

If you can find a place to put it, I really like the use of a header
tank with fuel returning to it. No management required and no concern
about injesting air when low on fuel!

I also like returnless EFI which has been on a number of cars such as
the Neon for about 10 years now. Such systems seem more common every
year and don't seem to have any hot start issues. Not sure but I think
the 40 ish psi rail pressure is enough to prevent fuel boiling when the
engine is shutdown.

Ken

One had the stock Sub fuel pumps mounted in the bottom of
the wing tanks, on removeable plates - worked great ! The
return line came up to the roof, with a valve to direct return
flow to left or right tank, to aid in load balancing. Ideally,
the return line is not at the top of the tank, so the fuel
doesn't fall, picking up air & static .... One nice thing
about this is there were no fuel valves needed - just turn on
the pump on the tank you wanted to feed from ! ;-)

---------- Digest Message #7 ----------
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 12:34:51 -0500
From: beep@sympatico.ca
To: rebel-builders
Subject: Re: CG of Subaru Rebel ?


To each his own .... I've always disliked header tanks, ever
since I lost a good friend who was burned in a Super Cub crash
because the header tank split & sprayed gas all over him & the
burning engine ...

I know you did a lot of work to crash-proof yours, and I think
it's mounted in back, instead of on the firewall like the Cub,
but to me it's still extra work, & an added hazard, and besides,
I'm all in favour of "active fuel management" ;-) --- often
the lack of attention to the fuel status is what causes a lot
of silence, and an instant glider, at inconvenient times ! ;-) :-)

"Returnless EFI" - now THAT sounds like the ideal answer !!
It would be great if Subaru went that way !

......bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Saturday 31 December 2005 09:08 am, Ken wrote:

That still requires active fuel management though which is still a
frequent cause of "incidents".

If you can find a place to put it, I really like the use of a header
tank with fuel returning to it. No management required and no concern
about injesting air when low on fuel!

I also like returnless EFI which has been on a number of cars such as
the Neon for about 10 years now. Such systems seem more common every
year and don't seem to have any hot start issues. Not sure but I think
the 40 ish psi rail pressure is enough to prevent fuel boiling when the
engine is shutdown.

Ken

One had the stock Sub fuel pumps mounted in the bottom of
the wing tanks, on removeable plates - worked great ! The
return line came up to the roof, with a valve to direct return
flow to left or right tank, to aid in load balancing. Ideally,
the return line is not at the top of the tank, so the fuel
doesn't fall, picking up air & static .... One nice thing
about this is there were no fuel valves needed - just turn on
the pump on the tank you wanted to feed from ! ;-)

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---------- Digest Message #8 ----------
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 16:28:51 -0500
From: klehman@albedo.net
To: rebel-builders
Subject: Re: Fuel of Subaru Rebel ?

I'd keep the header tank but guys have run headers as small as a liter
(quart) and even put them forward of the firewall with a little heat
shielding without problems. I would run an upsloping vent line back to a
tank or the tank crossvent with any header regardless of size or
location. I don't agree with everything on the SDS efi site but I
believe he documents such an installation there and still uses it. Think
he made the tank out of a 3 or 4" section of aluminum tube. A vertical
oriented tank might even allow some thermosyphoning back to the main
tanks after shutdown, as will any rising vapour bubbles. A small header
is much easier to locate and with external pumps it's light enough that
it is easy to mount securely.

To be honest I don't recall anyone having vapour problems who used a
header. The Eg...... boys had problems when they tried to use a little
cooler on the return and recycle the fuel without a header but I'm sure
I'm not the only one who cautioned against flying that way...

Ken

bransom@dcsol.com wrote:

I recall from past Soob reading some concerns about vapor lock by returning
warm fuel to the header, as opposed to the main tanks (giving it distance and
volume to cool). What's your take on that Ken? Also, when you said that on
further consideration you might just use after-market external pumps, do you
mean that and no header?
-Ben

----------




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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

Bob...you can unsubscribe yourself at the link on the bottom of this email.
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Strate" <bstrate@deltairrigation.ca>
To: <rebel-builders-d@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2006 10:41 PM
Subject: Re: DIGEST - rebel-builders-d

Please remove me from your list, thankyou..
Bob Strate

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