What is the %of builders using solid rivets vs pulled rivets and what are the pros and cons?are the pros and cons?
Kevin
are the pros and cons?
Kevin
are the pros and cons?
Kevin
Ben thanks . I am located in Michigan and have not yet started to build. I am trying to asses all the great information on this forum. I hope to purchase a kit soon. Still have not made up my mind as to what type. All the great people on this forum is making me lean toward the Murphy kit.
bransom@dcsol.com wrote: Kevin,
I have the impression that % is only a handful. General sentiment seems to
be there is no practical reason, so don't mess with this idea and build the
plane. As I think I've mentioned before, "practical" isn't why I'm here
anyway, and I really thought it would be just nice aesthetically to try to do
solid flush on the leading edge, so I did. I made some simple dimpling tools
that greatly aided the process, and of course the riveting is "back
riveting". I was able to do the stringers on the bottom skin as well (up to
the point of the tank skin). Did not do the top main skin at all to ease the
final assembly sequence of top skin, stringers, and top tank skin. My
dimpling tools (and the back riveting) produced excellent results and took
only a few hours more per wing than if I had done pulled rivets. (Maybe I'm
slow at pull rivets.) For a few pics see:
http://mae.ucdavis.edu/ransom/Murphy/SolidFlushRivet/
BTW, MAM provided me a little worksheet to determine whether AN3 or AN4
rivets were required for replacement of the pull rivets. On the Rebel it
works out that the AN3's are appropriate (for wing stringers). Riveting the
small 3's is a breeze.
-Ben/ 496R
Davis, Calif
BTW Kevin, where are you located? (i have the same ISP)
are the pros and cons?Kevin
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am trying to asses all the great information on this forum. I hope toBen thanks . I am located in Michigan and have not yet started to build. I
dobransom@dcsol.com wrote: Kevin,
I have the impression that % is only a handful. General sentiment seems to
be there is no practical reason, so don't mess with this idea and build the
plane. As I think I've mentioned before, "practical" isn't why I'm here
anyway, and I really thought it would be just nice aesthetically to try to
toolssolid flush on the leading edge, so I did. I made some simple dimpling
thethat greatly aided the process, and of course the riveting is "back
riveting". I was able to do the stringers on the bottom skin as well (up to
the point of the tank skin). Did not do the top main skin at all to ease
final assembly sequence of top skin, stringers, and top tank skin. My
dimpling tools (and the back riveting) produced excellent results and took
only a few hours more per wing than if I had done pulled rivets. (Maybe I'm
slow at pull rivets.) For a few pics see:
http://mae.ucdavis.edu/ransom/Murphy/SolidFlushRivet/
BTW, MAM provided me a little worksheet to determine whether AN3 or AN4
rivets were required for replacement of the pull rivets. On the Rebel it
works out that the AN3's are appropriate (for wing stringers). Riveting the
small 3's is a breeze.
-Ben/ 496R
Davis, Calif
BTW Kevin, where are you located? (i have the same ISP)
are the pros and cons?Kevin
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Ben thanks . I am located in Michigan and have not yet started to build. I am trying to asses all the great information on this forum. I hope to purchase a kit soon. Still have not made up my mind as to what type. All the great people on this forum is making me lean toward the Murphy kit.
bransom@dcsol.com wrote: Kevin,
I have the impression that % is only a handful. General sentiment seems to
be there is no practical reason, so don't mess with this idea and build the
plane. As I think I've mentioned before, "practical" isn't why I'm here
anyway, and I really thought it would be just nice aesthetically to try to do
solid flush on the leading edge, so I did. I made some simple dimpling tools
that greatly aided the process, and of course the riveting is "back
riveting". I was able to do the stringers on the bottom skin as well (up to
the point of the tank skin). Did not do the top main skin at all to ease the
final assembly sequence of top skin, stringers, and top tank skin. My
dimpling tools (and the back riveting) produced excellent results and took
only a few hours more per wing than if I had done pulled rivets. (Maybe I'm
slow at pull rivets.) For a few pics see:
http://mae.ucdavis.edu/ransom/Murphy/SolidFlushRivet/
BTW, MAM provided me a little worksheet to determine whether AN3 or AN4
rivets were required for replacement of the pull rivets. On the Rebel it
works out that the AN3's are appropriate (for wing stringers). Riveting the
small 3's is a breeze.
-Ben/ 496R
Davis, Calif
BTW Kevin, where are you located? (i have the same ISP)
are the pros and cons?Kevin
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This is quite rare.
Once you deviate significantly from the kit, the resale value may vary
substantially should it have to be sold.
For example -3 solid rivets might or might not be equivalent or better
but the average purchaser is more likely to just know that it is not
like the other Rebels that he has seen. Even I would be concerned
whether they were used in inappropriate areas as builders who should
know better (due to professional qualifications) have done some strange
things. I guess I'm saying that this is more likely to reduce the
projects value rather than enhance it. I wouldn't question -4 solids
but nor would they add value for the extra work in my mind and you will
still need some pulled rivets in blind areas so you'd end up with a
mixture which might lead to even further work as you fill the pulled
rivets to make them all look the same... The archives mention that flush
riveted machines don't seem to go any faster ;(
Ken
are the pros and cons?
Kevin
whatI would agree as Ken points out, that deviations are generally not a good
idea. But, in spite of that, here is my thinking on this one...
The structural difference between solids and pull rivets is a straight
forward engineering comparison, so the only thing left for uncertainty is
riveting technique, i.e., did I hammer the rivets too far and work harden
them, or not enf leaving them vulnerable to working loose. I had an expert
(teaches A&P and especially metal work) show me and check samples, plus
crosschecked the FAA Advisory Circulars on riveting procedures. Plus, MAM's
support of the idea (so long as following the rivet substitution table they
provided) also made me feel it was a reasonable choice. I don't mean to
sound too defensive on this, but just wanting to point out that good care
went into this decision as well as build technique.
-Ben
This is quite rare.
Once you deviate significantly from the kit, the resale value may vary
substantially should it have to be sold.
For example -3 solid rivets might or might not be equivalent or better
but the average purchaser is more likely to just know that it is not
like the other Rebels that he has seen. Even I would be concerned
whether they were used in inappropriate areas as builders who should
know better (due to professional qualifications) have done some strange
things. I guess I'm saying that this is more likely to reduce the
projects value rather than enhance it. I wouldn't question -4 solids
but nor would they add value for the extra work in my mind and you will
still need some pulled rivets in blind areas so you'd end up with a
mixture which might lead to even further work as you fill the pulled
rivets to make them all look the same... The archives mention that flush
riveted machines don't seem to go any faster ;(
Ken
are the pros and cons?
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Hi Ben !
I'm sure Ken was not even suggesting that there was any problem
with your work !
He WAS pointing out one of the factors that (most) new buyers
would consider when buying a homebuilt. Sad as it is, there are
builders out there who are nowhere near as careful as those on this
list ..... See the recent Kitplanes article on "The RV-4 from Hell" !
I was shocked at the things found on this airplane - double, overlapping
holes for the rear spar bolts, etc. !!!!
The reality is that a partly finished kit is almost always sold for
LESS than the original kit cost -- mostly because of questions about
workmanship (valid or not), and ANY variation from the plans,
or most examples out there, will raise questions.
Certainly, the choice of rivet types on the Rebel & Moose is up
to the builder - there are advantages to both, and the factory has
approved both. Some believe solids will produce a stronger airplane -
others believe that Avex pulled rivets will be easier to repair later.
It's really a matter of choice - and a buyer will decide on his own.
.......bobp
