0-360 in rebel

[Jones, Michael]

hi all

just got isometrics of elite tail from Murphy, holly cow there is allot of
metal in the tail compared to a rebel, based on this i would think its a
really bad idea of putting an 0-360 into a rebel, as example the rudder has
6 brackets to hold it on, in pairs of 2's, and attach points to fuselage are
allot bigger than the rebel as well

mike#007

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[WALTER KLATT]

Aren't there some Rebels already using the 0360? Yes, from what I understand, too, the tail area may be the weak point on the Rebel. And I also understand the tail may be overbuilt for the Elite. But what exactly does more hp do to the tail? If there is a problem, wouldn't it show up with some cracking somewhere. I know we've had a few mods to the tail now, so it should be stronger than we've had before. Of course, I would not want to risk sudden failure of the rudder coming off or something like that, but is that likely?

In my case, I only want the 0360 to get more hp at high altitude lakes (5000 feet+), and to climb over some higher mountains. I can tell you from experience, my 0320 is not producing a lot of climb anymore at 8000 feet. If I was on wheels only, I'd be happy with a 912S or 0235.

I guess another option would be to turbocharge the 0320, but as I understand it, that would weigh more and cost more than an 0360, so what's the point.

Walter

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jones, Michael" <MJones@hatch.ca>
Date: Thursday, June 9, 2005 10:25 am
Subject: 0-360 in rebel

hi all

just got isometrics of elite tail from Murphy, holly cow there is
allot of
metal in the tail compared to a rebel, based on this i would think
its a
really bad idea of putting an 0-360 into a rebel, as example the
rudder has
6 brackets to hold it on, in pairs of 2's, and attach points to
fuselage are
allot bigger than the rebel as well

mike#007

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[Rick Harper]

G'day Walter

Have you looked at the performance increase you get from fitting an
electronic ignition - such as L.S.E. or a P-Mag ........ ?

Bigger / fatter spark gives a noticeable boost to performance ! (and
better fuel consumption as well

Rick Harper
541R
----- Original Message -----
From: WALTER KLATT
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Sent: Friday, June 10, 2005 5:51 AM
Subject: Re: 0-360 in rebel


Aren't there some Rebels already using the 0360? Yes, from what I
understand, too, the tail area may be the weak point on the Rebel. And I
also understand the tail may be overbuilt for the Elite. But what
exactly does more hp do to the tail? If there is a problem, wouldn't it
show up with some cracking somewhere. I know we've had a few mods to the
tail now, so it should be stronger than we've had before. Of course, I
would not want to risk sudden failure of the rudder coming off or
something like that, but is that likely?

In my case, I only want the 0360 to get more hp at high altitude lakes
(5000 feet+), and to climb over some higher mountains. I can tell you
from experience, my 0320 is not producing a lot of climb anymore at 8000
feet. If I was on wheels only, I'd be happy with a 912S or 0235.

I guess another option would be to turbocharge the 0320, but as I
understand it, that would weigh more and cost more than an 0360, so
what's the point.

Walter

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jones, Michael" <MJones@hatch.ca>
Date: Thursday, June 9, 2005 10:25 am
Subject: 0-360 in rebel

hi all

just got isometrics of elite tail from Murphy, holly cow there is
allot of
metal in the tail compared to a rebel, based on this i would think
its a
really bad idea of putting an 0-360 into a rebel, as example the
rudder has
6 brackets to hold it on, in pairs of 2's, and attach points to
fuselage are
allot bigger than the rebel as well

mike#007

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HATCH immediately via MailAdmin@hatch.ca.



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[WALTER KLATT]

I've talked to different people about these, but if I'm going to make a change, I would be looking for a 30+ hp increase, not 5 or 10. But if I were installing an 0320 now, yes, that would definitely be a consideration.

And as I said earlier, I have a perfectly running 0320 now, so not planning to do anything at this time. But for those thinking now which engine to put in their Rebel, this is all good food for thought.

Again, my 150 hp Rebel works pretty good as is on the amphibs when down at the lower altitudes. It's only up high and in hot weather, that I want more hp.

Walter

----- Original Message -----
From: Rick Harper <rjwh@optusnet.com.au>
Date: Thursday, June 9, 2005 2:26 pm
Subject: Re: 0-360 in rebel

G'day Walter

Have you looked at the performance increase you get from
fitting an
electronic ignition - such as L.S.E. or a P-Mag ........ ?

Bigger / fatter spark gives a noticeable boost to performance !
(and
better fuel consumption as well

Rick Harper
541R
----- Original Message -----
From: WALTER KLATT
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Sent: Friday, June 10, 2005 5:51 AM
Subject: Re: 0-360 in rebel


Aren't there some Rebels already using the 0360? Yes, from what
I
understand, too, the tail area may be the weak point on the Rebel.
And I
also understand the tail may be overbuilt for the Elite. But what
exactly does more hp do to the tail? If there is a problem,
wouldn't it
show up with some cracking somewhere. I know we've had a few mods
to the
tail now, so it should be stronger than we've had before. Of
course, I
would not want to risk sudden failure of the rudder coming off or
something like that, but is that likely?

In my case, I only want the 0360 to get more hp at high altitude
lakes
(5000 feet+), and to climb over some higher mountains. I can tell
you
from experience, my 0320 is not producing a lot of climb anymore
at 8000
feet. If I was on wheels only, I'd be happy with a 912S or 0235.

I guess another option would be to turbocharge the 0320, but as
I
understand it, that would weigh more and cost more than an 0360,
so
what's the point.

Walter

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jones, Michael" <MJones@hatch.ca>
Date: Thursday, June 9, 2005 10:25 am
Subject: 0-360 in rebel

hi all

just got isometrics of elite tail from Murphy, holly cow there

is

allot of
metal in the tail compared to a rebel, based on this i would

think

its a
really bad idea of putting an 0-360 into a rebel, as example

the

rudder has
6 brackets to hold it on, in pairs of 2's, and attach points

to

fuselage are
allot bigger than the rebel as well

mike#007

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be

confidential and/or privileged. If you are not the intended
recipient
of this message you are hereby notified that you must not
disseminate,
copy or take any action with respect to it.

If you have received this message in error please notify
HATCH immediately via MailAdmin@hatch.ca.



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[bransom]

WRT tail strength as an issue, there is at least the general thing of more HP
translating to more overall work put on the airframe. Pilots will be tempted
to go faster, carry more weight, not just climb higher or fly at higher
altitude. Faster speeds especially at gross weight translates to more
structural loads, and the tail of course is what counters pitching moment.
OTOH, if one treats the greater HP with good sense, i.e., just greater climb,
and the weight is equal or less, and you aren't also needing to put in more
weight in fuel or counterweights in tail, then I can't see a problem. That
opinion is worth what you paid for it of course. :)

Walter -- you mention Snow Cap lake. I'm curious of anyone here what the
highest elevation lake anyone has taken off from in a Rebel (with whatever
weight stated approximately). Anyone >5 or 6k?
-Ben/ 496R

Aren't there some Rebels already using the 0360? Yes, from what I

understand, too, the tail area may be the weak point on the Rebel. And I also
understand the tail may be overbuilt for the Elite. But what exactly does
more hp do to the tail? If there is a problem, wouldn't it show up with some
cracking somewhere. I know we've had a few mods to the tail now, so it should
be stronger than we've had before. Of course, I would not want to risk sudden
failure of the rudder coming off or something like that, but is that likely?

In my case, I only want the 0360 to get more hp at high altitude lakes

(5000 feet+), and to climb over some higher mountains. I can tell you from
experience, my 0320 is not producing a lot of climb anymore at 8000 feet. If
I was on wheels only, I'd be happy with a 912S or 0235.

I guess another option would be to turbocharge the 0320, but as I

understand it, that would weigh more and cost more than an 0360, so what's
the point.

Walter

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[Drew Dalgleish]

At 12:51 PM 6/9/2005 -0700, you wrote:

Aren't there some Rebels already using the 0360? Yes, from what I

understand, too, the tail area may be the weak point on the Rebel. And I
also understand the tail may be overbuilt for the Elite. But what exactly
does more hp do to the tail? If there is a problem, wouldn't it show up
with some cracking somewhere. I know we've had a few mods to the tail now,
so it should be stronger than we've had before. Of course, I would not want
to risk sudden failure of the rudder coming off or something like that, but
is that likely?

In my case, I only want the 0360 to get more hp at high altitude lakes

(5000 feet+), and to climb over some higher mountains. I can tell you from
experience, my 0320 is not producing a lot of climb anymore at 8000 feet.
If I was on wheels only, I'd be happy with a 912S or 0235.

I guess another option would be to turbocharge the 0320, but as I

understand it, that would weigh more and cost more than an 0360, so what's
the point.

Walter

Hi Walter if all you want is to get out of those high altitude lakes just
add a nitrous oxide system :)
Drew





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[Walter Klatt]

I've never really looked into the nitrous systems, but yes,
that's perhaps something for me to explore. I know Al P. has it
in his Moose. My 0320 is just a regular narrow deck variety, and
not sure if it could handle the extra boost. I would hate to blow
a jug or rod in hostile alpine terrain just after take-off. And
what revs would it drive my fixed pitch prop on take-off? Anyway,
more food for thought. Thanks Drew.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Drew Dalgleish
Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2005 6:54 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: 0-360 in rebel


At 12:51 PM 6/9/2005 -0700, you wrote:

Aren't there some Rebels already using the 0360? Yes,

from what I
understand, too, the tail area may be the weak point
on the Rebel. And I
also understand the tail may be overbuilt for the
Elite. But what exactly
does more hp do to the tail? If there is a problem,
wouldn't it show up
with some cracking somewhere. I know we've had a few
mods to the tail now,
so it should be stronger than we've had before. Of
course, I would not want
to risk sudden failure of the rudder coming off or
something like that, but
is that likely?

In my case, I only want the 0360 to get more hp at

high altitude lakes
(5000 feet+), and to climb over some higher mountains.
I can tell you from
experience, my 0320 is not producing a lot of climb
anymore at 8000 feet.
If I was on wheels only, I'd be happy with a 912S or 0235.

I guess another option would be to turbocharge the

0320, but as I
understand it, that would weigh more and cost more
than an 0360, so what's
the point.

Walter

Hi Walter if all you want is to get out of those high
altitude lakes just
add a nitrous oxide system :)
Drew





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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

Maybe a paxton blower off a '69 Mustang! That way you can keep the HP at
altitiude! What I like about the GSO-480's in the UTVA's...always 340HP no
matter the temp or altitude (to a point)

Al....have you punched that little red button yet???!!!! )

----- Original Message -----
From: "Walter Klatt" <Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2005 11:27 PM
Subject: RE: 0-360 in rebel

I've never really looked into the nitrous systems, but yes,
that's perhaps something for me to explore. I know Al P. has it
in his Moose. My 0320 is just a regular narrow deck variety, and
not sure if it could handle the extra boost. I would hate to blow
a jug or rod in hostile alpine terrain just after take-off. And
what revs would it drive my fixed pitch prop on take-off? Anyway,
more food for thought. Thanks Drew.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Drew Dalgleish
Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2005 6:54 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: 0-360 in rebel


At 12:51 PM 6/9/2005 -0700, you wrote:

Aren't there some Rebels already using the 0360? Yes,

from what I
understand, too, the tail area may be the weak point
on the Rebel. And I
also understand the tail may be overbuilt for the
Elite. But what exactly
does more hp do to the tail? If there is a problem,
wouldn't it show up
with some cracking somewhere. I know we've had a few
mods to the tail now,
so it should be stronger than we've had before. Of
course, I would not want
to risk sudden failure of the rudder coming off or
something like that, but
is that likely?

In my case, I only want the 0360 to get more hp at

high altitude lakes
(5000 feet+), and to climb over some higher mountains.
I can tell you from
experience, my 0320 is not producing a lot of climb
anymore at 8000 feet.
If I was on wheels only, I'd be happy with a 912S or 0235.

I guess another option would be to turbocharge the

0320, but as I
understand it, that would weigh more and cost more
than an 0360, so what's
the point.

Walter

Hi Walter if all you want is to get out of those high
altitude lakes just
add a nitrous oxide system :)
Drew





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[Walter Klatt]

The highest take-off from water on mine has been 3600 feet with
maybe 5000 density altitude.

Couldn't find any good links for Snow Cap Lake, but here is one.
Its the pic on the top right. Don't think the J3 would make it up
there if there were floats hanging from it.
http://airchris.com/MyPiperJ3.htm

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
bransom@dcsol.com
Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2005 4:13 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: 0-360 in rebel


WRT tail strength as an issue, there is at least the
general thing of more HP
translating to more overall work put on the airframe.
Pilots will be tempted
to go faster, carry more weight, not just climb higher
or fly at higher
altitude. Faster speeds especially at gross weight
translates to more
structural loads, and the tail of course is what
counters pitching moment.
OTOH, if one treats the greater HP with good sense,
i.e., just greater climb,
and the weight is equal or less, and you aren't also
needing to put in more
weight in fuel or counterweights in tail, then I can't
see a problem. That
opinion is worth what you paid for it of course. :)

Walter -- you mention Snow Cap lake. I'm curious of
anyone here what the
highest elevation lake anyone has taken off from in a
Rebel (with whatever
weight stated approximately). Anyone >5 or 6k?
-Ben/ 496R

Aren't there some Rebels already using the 0360?

Yes, from what I
understand, too, the tail area may be the weak point
on the Rebel. And I also
understand the tail may be overbuilt for the Elite.
But what exactly does
more hp do to the tail? If there is a problem,
wouldn't it show up with some
cracking somewhere. I know we've had a few mods to the
tail now, so it should
be stronger than we've had before. Of course, I would
not want to risk sudden
failure of the rudder coming off or something like
that, but is that likely?

In my case, I only want the 0360 to get more hp at

high altitude lakes
(5000 feet+), and to climb over some higher mountains.
I can tell you from
experience, my 0320 is not producing a lot of climb
anymore at 8000 feet. If
I was on wheels only, I'd be happy with a 912S or 0235.

I guess another option would be to turbocharge the

0320, but as I
understand it, that would weigh more and cost more
than an 0360, so what's
the point.

Walter

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[Al Paxhia]

I haven't had a need to punch the button yet. I plan to stay out of those
places.
I have several sets of nozzles that regulate the nitrous oxide volume. The
lowest volume set produces 25 HP. Here's my power formula, 1 pound of
nitrous produces 100 HP for 1 second or 25 HP for 4 seconds, I have a 10 lb
bottle.
Al
----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2005 8:32 PM
Subject: Re: 0-360 in rebel

Maybe a paxton blower off a '69 Mustang! That way you can keep the HP at
altitiude! What I like about the GSO-480's in the UTVA's...always 340HP no
matter the temp or altitude (to a point)

Al....have you punched that little red button yet???!!!! )

----- Original Message -----
From: "Walter Klatt" <Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2005 11:27 PM
Subject: RE: 0-360 in rebel

I've never really looked into the nitrous systems, but yes,
that's perhaps something for me to explore. I know Al P. has it
in his Moose. My 0320 is just a regular narrow deck variety, and
not sure if it could handle the extra boost. I would hate to blow
a jug or rod in hostile alpine terrain just after take-off. And
what revs would it drive my fixed pitch prop on take-off? Anyway,
more food for thought. Thanks Drew.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Drew Dalgleish
Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2005 6:54 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: 0-360 in rebel


At 12:51 PM 6/9/2005 -0700, you wrote: from what I
understand, too, the tail area may be the weak point
on the Rebel. And I
also understand the tail may be overbuilt for the
Elite. But what exactly
does more hp do to the tail? If there is a problem,
wouldn't it show up
with some cracking somewhere. I know we've had a few
mods to the tail now,
so it should be stronger than we've had before. Of
course, I would not want
to risk sudden failure of the rudder coming off or
something like that, but
is that likely? high altitude lakes
(5000 feet+), and to climb over some higher mountains.
I can tell you from
experience, my 0320 is not producing a lot of climb
anymore at 8000 feet.
If I was on wheels only, I'd be happy with a 912S or 0235. 0320, but as I
understand it, that would weigh more and cost more
than an 0360, so what's
the point. Hi Walter if all you want is to get out of those high
altitude lakes just
add a nitrous oxide system :)
Drew





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