engine break in 0-320

[Jones, Michael]

hi all

i am getting final quote for my 0-320 engine now and am wondering if i
should pay the extra it costs to have engine broke in, or run for about 8
hours on test stand to seat the rings, this is what supplier has told me
anyway, says i could glaze the cylinders if i don't do this right, is this
correct and should i pay the extra to have it done

mike#007

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[Al Paxhia]

IMHO, I would spend the extra bucks and have them do the break in. The taxi
tests and such that you will be doing are not good on a new engine. It needs
to pushed at 75% power or better for the first few hours. If your not able
to follow the prescribed break in, you may have trouble long term.
Al
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jones, Michael" <MJones@hatch.ca>
To: "Rebel-Builders EMIAL (E-mail)" <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, April 11, 2005 7:22 AM
Subject: engine break in 0-320

hi all

i am getting final quote for my 0-320 engine now and am wondering if i
should pay the extra it costs to have engine broke in, or run for about 8
hours on test stand to seat the rings, this is what supplier has told me
anyway, says i could glaze the cylinders if i don't do this right, is this
correct and should i pay the extra to have it done

mike#007

----------------------------------------------------------------------

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[Ted Waltman]

I realize we're talking about an O-320 vs an M-14, but here's what Carl
Hays recently told me about recommended break in procedures:
-----
Carl recommends babying the engine for the first few hours. Carl
indicates it is an [invalid] old-wives tale that to break an engine in,
one should run the heck out of it for the first few hours to seat the
rings. This may have been appropriate before WW-II with the less
sophisticated metallurgy, but is not appropriate today. Carl has seen
rings ruined on the M-14 by folks who did run it too hard initially.
The Russians, with tons of time and labor, would break one in by running
it on the ground at a very low power setting for 10 min. Then shut it
off and let it sit until it cooled down [for an hour?]. Then they would
run it for 15 min adding 100 more rpm and let it sit again. They did
this, increasing the time by 5 min and the rpm by 100 until they had
perhaps 8 hours on the engine. Carl says while optimal, this approach
is excessive.

So, just don't run the engine at high temps for more than a very short
period of time [e.g. < 30 sec] during break-in.
-----
Much different engine break-in philosophy...

Ted Waltman

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Al
Paxhia
Sent: Monday, April 11, 2005 10:59 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: engine break in 0-320


IMHO, I would spend the extra bucks and have them do the break in. The
taxi
tests and such that you will be doing are not good on a new engine. It
needs
to pushed at 75% power or better for the first few hours. If your not
able
to follow the prescribed break in, you may have trouble long term. Al
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jones, Michael" <MJones@hatch.ca>
To: "Rebel-Builders EMIAL (E-mail)" <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, April 11, 2005 7:22 AM
Subject: engine break in 0-320

hi all

i am getting final quote for my 0-320 engine now and am wondering if i

should pay the extra it costs to have engine broke in, or run for
about 8 hours on test stand to seat the rings, this is what supplier
has told me anyway, says i could glaze the cylinders if i don't do
this right, is this correct and should i pay the extra to have it done

mike#007

----------------------------------------------------------------------

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confidential and/or privileged. If you are not the intended recipient

of this message you are hereby notified that you must not disseminate,

copy or take any action with respect to it.

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[tlmcclary@juno.com]

Michael,

If it helps you decide, Mattituck has an article on engine break in on their website http://www.mattituck.com in the Tech Advice section. I was going to do a cut and paste but there is a copyright marking at the bottom of the page.

Terry
Rebel 666




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[Jones, Michael]

hi terry

rebel 666, eh, boy tthats not good number to have is it !!

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
tlmcclary@juno.com
Sent: Monday, April 11, 2005 1:53 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Cc: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: engine break in 0-320



Michael,

If it helps you decide, Mattituck has an article on engine break in on their
website http://www.mattituck.com in the Tech Advice section. I was going
to do a cut and paste but there is a copyright marking at the bottom of the
page.

Terry
Rebel 666




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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

Well Ted, Carl can stick with his breakin procedure..it may very well work
with the M14..but if you do that to a Lycoming/Continental you will have
nothing but glazed cylinders, low compression and be pulling the cylinders
for a rehone/cross hatch and a new set of $$ rings. If you don't keep the
power above 75% and enough Manifold pressure to keep the rings loaded
against the cylinder walls the rings will not seat...leading to glazed
cylinders, low compression and high oil consumption. It is even cautioned
for guys with Super Cubs flying with Borer Props to switch to a Cruise
Sensenich for engine breakin so they can keep enough load on the engine.
I've seen enough engines that were ground run too long, or babied in flight
(instead of running the shit out of it) that the local AME was pulling a
fresh engine back apart to spend some more money and down time on.

I'll stick with my one short engine run to check for leaks and then take off
and under no circumstances (other than fire or flutter) land for a minimum
of 2 hours on the first flight of a new engine. I have used this high power
(nothing under 2475 RPM changing every 10 minutes or so by 50 or 75 rpm with
most of the flight at 2550 to 2600rpm) for 2 hours to over 6 x O-320's in
the last 7 or 8 years. I can almost set my watch by the time that the oil
temp/cyl head temps drop after take off....indictating that the rings have
seated Every engine saw about a 50*F cylinder and a 20*F oil temp drop
within a few minutes of 1hr & 45 minutes of flight time. Didn't matter
whether they were steel, cermichrome or chrome cylinders. On my personal
chrome cylinders I get at least 10 hours / quart of oil which is almost
unheard of with chrome. Howard's Cermichrome's go about 12 hours / quart.
Garry might be able to pipe in and tell use how far FOKM is going on a quart
these days with it's steel cylinders. Did the same routine with my O-470 in
my C182 as well. O-470's are notorious for 1qt every 4 hours...mine went 9.

Cheers,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ted Waltman" <tedwaltman@i1ci.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, April 11, 2005 1:04 PM
Subject: RE: engine break in 0-320

I realize we're talking about an O-320 vs an M-14, but here's what Carl
Hays recently told me about recommended break in procedures:
-----
Carl recommends babying the engine for the first few hours. Carl
indicates it is an [invalid] old-wives tale that to break an engine in,
one should run the heck out of it for the first few hours to seat the
rings. This may have been appropriate before WW-II with the less
sophisticated metallurgy, but is not appropriate today. Carl has seen
rings ruined on the M-14 by folks who did run it too hard initially.
The Russians, with tons of time and labor, would break one in by running
it on the ground at a very low power setting for 10 min. Then shut it
off and let it sit until it cooled down [for an hour?]. Then they would
run it for 15 min adding 100 more rpm and let it sit again. They did
this, increasing the time by 5 min and the rpm by 100 until they had
perhaps 8 hours on the engine. Carl says while optimal, this approach
is excessive.

So, just don't run the engine at high temps for more than a very short
period of time [e.g. < 30 sec] during break-in.
-----
Much different engine break-in philosophy...

Ted Waltman

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Al
Paxhia
Sent: Monday, April 11, 2005 10:59 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: engine break in 0-320


IMHO, I would spend the extra bucks and have them do the break in. The
taxi
tests and such that you will be doing are not good on a new engine. It
needs
to pushed at 75% power or better for the first few hours. If your not
able
to follow the prescribed break in, you may have trouble long term. Al
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jones, Michael" <MJones@hatch.ca>
To: "Rebel-Builders EMIAL (E-mail)" <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, April 11, 2005 7:22 AM
Subject: engine break in 0-320

hi all

i am getting final quote for my 0-320 engine now and am wondering if i

should pay the extra it costs to have engine broke in, or run for
about 8 hours on test stand to seat the rings, this is what supplier
has told me anyway, says i could glaze the cylinders if i don't do
this right, is this correct and should i pay the extra to have it done

mike#007

----------------------------------------------------------------------

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confidential and/or privileged. If you are not the intended recipient

of this message you are hereby notified that you must not disseminate,

copy or take any action with respect to it.

If you have received this message in error please notify HATCH
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[carol and murray cherkas]

Mike:

I had my mechanic come down and fly my plane the first time. Two fold, Dave
wanted to fly the plane and I wanted him to break the engine in.
Prior to first flight we started the engine and ran it for 5
minutes.1200-1500 rpm. stoped checked for leaks. Started again for 5 min.
again 1200-1500 rpm. next weekend Dave came down. Started the engine, got
oil temp up to 75*, taxied to threshold, let temp get to 100* and firewalled
it, got to cruising altitude, leveled out, backed off a little to 2600rpm,
flew for half hour, adjusted rpm between 2450 -2700. Flew around the patch
for 1.8 hrs. 110 hrs later, doesn't use any oil, runs like brand new.
Wayne is exactly right.

Good luck
Murray
Rebel 505



----- Original Message -----
From: "Jones, Michael" <MJones@hatch.ca>
To: "Rebel-Builders EMIAL (E-mail)" <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, April 11, 2005 8:22 AM
Subject: engine break in 0-320

hi all

i am getting final quote for my 0-320 engine now and am wondering if i
should pay the extra it costs to have engine broke in, or run for about 8
hours on test stand to seat the rings, this is what supplier has told me
anyway, says i could glaze the cylinders if i don't do this right, is this
correct and should i pay the extra to have it done

mike#007

----------------------------------------------------------------------

NOTICE - This message is the property of HATCH. It may also be
confidential and/or privileged. If you are not the intended recipient
of this message you are hereby notified that you must not disseminate,
copy or take any action with respect to it.

If you have received this message in error please notify
HATCH immediately via mailto:MailAdmin@hatch.ca.



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[Mike Kimball]

Here is what Michael Caldera, Manager of Product Support for Lycoming, said
in the April 2005 issue of Plane and Pilot Magazine about how to break in a
new engine.

"The first flight should be a two-hour flight. The first hour should be
accomplished with normal takeoff procedures. Limit your ground operational
time so that you don't hot-spot the cylinders. After takeoff operate the
engine at 75% power for the first hour. For the next 30 minutes for that
two-hour duration, alternate power settings between 65% and 75% power. Use
a five-minute interval for adjusting that power between 65% and 75%. For
the last half-hour duration of that two-hour flight, go back to 75% power.
After those two hours, land the aircraft and continue the break-in process.
Until the engine stabilizes, operate the engine between 65% and 75% power
until the oil consumption stabilizes or until the first 50 hours of
operation."

Apparently Lycoming's stand is still the old "operate at high power
settings" philosophy. Another interesting note in the interview was that
Lycoming is very much against "lean of peak" operation, and it says so in
Service Instruction 1094 in "big, bold letters".

Mike Kimball
044SR

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
carol and murray cherkas
Sent: Monday, April 11, 2005 4:03 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: engine break in 0-320


Mike:

I had my mechanic come down and fly my plane the first time. Two fold, Dave
wanted to fly the plane and I wanted him to break the engine in.
Prior to first flight we started the engine and ran it for 5
minutes.1200-1500 rpm. stoped checked for leaks. Started again for 5 min.
again 1200-1500 rpm. next weekend Dave came down. Started the engine, got
oil temp up to 75*, taxied to threshold, let temp get to 100* and firewalled
it, got to cruising altitude, leveled out, backed off a little to 2600rpm,
flew for half hour, adjusted rpm between 2450 -2700. Flew around the patch
for 1.8 hrs. 110 hrs later, doesn't use any oil, runs like brand new.
Wayne is exactly right.

Good luck
Murray
Rebel 505



----- Original Message -----
From: "Jones, Michael" <MJones@hatch.ca>
To: "Rebel-Builders EMIAL (E-mail)" <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, April 11, 2005 8:22 AM
Subject: engine break in 0-320

hi all

i am getting final quote for my 0-320 engine now and am wondering if i
should pay the extra it costs to have engine broke in, or run for about 8
hours on test stand to seat the rings, this is what supplier has told me
anyway, says i could glaze the cylinders if i don't do this right, is this
correct and should i pay the extra to have it done

mike#007

----------------------------------------------------------------------

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confidential and/or privileged. If you are not the intended recipient
of this message you are hereby notified that you must not disseminate,
copy or take any action with respect to it.

If you have received this message in error please notify
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[Ken]

Probably - that is another reason that a used engine is nice for the
first flight as you may have gathered from the other posts. I would
negotiate for at least two or three hours on the test stand anyway. The
test stand assures proper cooling at extended high power which can't be
done on the aircraft unless you are in flight and even then it is not
assured in a new aircraft as you may realize by reading some of the
posts on cooling...

New cylinders are honed somewhat rough so that the rings can wear in or
seat. With a large bore engine there is not enough ring tension to do
that unless the rings have additional "push" from high cylinder
pressures. Some sources even say wide open throttle for two hours! Any
way the explanation that I've always believed is that the cylinder gas
pressure pushes out on the backside of the piston ring and that
additional push is needed on a Lycosaur. Another informed source of
info is the Skyranch Engineering Manual. Note that all successful engine
builders recommend a high power break-in (and often a straight mineral
oil).

Ken


Jones, Michael wrote:

hi all

i am getting final quote for my 0-320 engine now and am wondering if i
should pay the extra it costs to have engine broke in, or run for about 8
hours on test stand to seat the rings, this is what supplier has told me
anyway, says i could glaze the cylinders if i don't do this right, is this
correct and should i pay the extra to have it done

mike#007

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[Garry Wright]

FOKM is running in excess of 10 hrs per quart. Its long enough that I
sort of lose track, due to so much checking and so little adding. Love
that.

On Mon, 2005-04-11 at 19:22 -0400, Wayne G. O'Shea wrote:

Well Ted, Carl can stick with his breakin procedure..it may very well work
with the M14..but if you do that to a Lycoming/Continental you will have
nothing but glazed cylinders, low compression and be pulling the cylinders
for a rehone/cross hatch and a new set of $$ rings. If you don't keep the
power above 75% and enough Manifold pressure to keep the rings loaded
against the cylinder walls the rings will not seat...leading to glazed
cylinders, low compression and high oil consumption. It is even cautioned
for guys with Super Cubs flying with Borer Props to switch to a Cruise
Sensenich for engine breakin so they can keep enough load on the engine.
I've seen enough engines that were ground run too long, or babied in flight
(instead of running the shit out of it) that the local AME was pulling a
fresh engine back apart to spend some more money and down time on.

I'll stick with my one short engine run to check for leaks and then take off
and under no circumstances (other than fire or flutter) land for a minimum
of 2 hours on the first flight of a new engine. I have used this high power
(nothing under 2475 RPM changing every 10 minutes or so by 50 or 75 rpm with
most of the flight at 2550 to 2600rpm) for 2 hours to over 6 x O-320's in
the last 7 or 8 years. I can almost set my watch by the time that the oil
temp/cyl head temps drop after take off....indictating that the rings have
seated Every engine saw about a 50*F cylinder and a 20*F oil temp drop
within a few minutes of 1hr & 45 minutes of flight time. Didn't matter
whether they were steel, cermichrome or chrome cylinders. On my personal
chrome cylinders I get at least 10 hours / quart of oil which is almost
unheard of with chrome. Howard's Cermichrome's go about 12 hours / quart.
Garry might be able to pipe in and tell use how far FOKM is going on a quart
these days with it's steel cylinders. Did the same routine with my O-470 in
my C182 as well. O-470's are notorious for 1qt every 4 hours...mine went 9.

Cheers,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ted Waltman" <tedwaltman@i1ci.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, April 11, 2005 1:04 PM
Subject: RE: engine break in 0-320

I realize we're talking about an O-320 vs an M-14, but here's what Carl
Hays recently told me about recommended break in procedures:
-----
Carl recommends babying the engine for the first few hours. Carl
indicates it is an [invalid] old-wives tale that to break an engine in,
one should run the heck out of it for the first few hours to seat the
rings. This may have been appropriate before WW-II with the less
sophisticated metallurgy, but is not appropriate today. Carl has seen
rings ruined on the M-14 by folks who did run it too hard initially.
The Russians, with tons of time and labor, would break one in by running
it on the ground at a very low power setting for 10 min. Then shut it
off and let it sit until it cooled down [for an hour?]. Then they would
run it for 15 min adding 100 more rpm and let it sit again. They did
this, increasing the time by 5 min and the rpm by 100 until they had
perhaps 8 hours on the engine. Carl says while optimal, this approach
is excessive.

So, just don't run the engine at high temps for more than a very short
period of time [e.g. < 30 sec] during break-in.
-----
Much different engine break-in philosophy...

Ted Waltman

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Al
Paxhia
Sent: Monday, April 11, 2005 10:59 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: engine break in 0-320


IMHO, I would spend the extra bucks and have them do the break in. The
taxi
tests and such that you will be doing are not good on a new engine. It
needs
to pushed at 75% power or better for the first few hours. If your not
able
to follow the prescribed break in, you may have trouble long term. Al
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jones, Michael" <MJones@hatch.ca>
To: "Rebel-Builders EMIAL (E-mail)" <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, April 11, 2005 7:22 AM
Subject: engine break in 0-320

hi all

i am getting final quote for my 0-320 engine now and am wondering if i

should pay the extra it costs to have engine broke in, or run for
about 8 hours on test stand to seat the rings, this is what supplier
has told me anyway, says i could glaze the cylinders if i don't do
this right, is this correct and should i pay the extra to have it done

mike#007

----------------------------------------------------------------------

NOTICE - This message is the property of HATCH. It may also be
confidential and/or privileged. If you are not the intended recipient

of this message you are hereby notified that you must not disseminate,

copy or take any action with respect to it.

If you have received this message in error please notify HATCH
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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

Thanks Garry!! Glad I did another one properly! Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Garry Wright" <wrightdg@ca.inter.net>
To: "rebel builders" <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2005 9:26 AM
Subject: Re: engine break in 0-320

FOKM is running in excess of 10 hrs per quart. Its long enough that I
sort of lose track, due to so much checking and so little adding. Love
that.

On Mon, 2005-04-11 at 19:22 -0400, Wayne G. O'Shea wrote:

Well Ted, Carl can stick with his breakin procedure..it may very well

work

with the M14..but if you do that to a Lycoming/Continental you will have
nothing but glazed cylinders, low compression and be pulling the

cylinders

for a rehone/cross hatch and a new set of $$ rings. If you don't keep

the

power above 75% and enough Manifold pressure to keep the rings loaded
against the cylinder walls the rings will not seat...leading to glazed
cylinders, low compression and high oil consumption. It is even

cautioned

for guys with Super Cubs flying with Borer Props to switch to a Cruise
Sensenich for engine breakin so they can keep enough load on the engine.
I've seen enough engines that were ground run too long, or babied in

flight

(instead of running the shit out of it) that the local AME was pulling a
fresh engine back apart to spend some more money and down time on.

I'll stick with my one short engine run to check for leaks and then take

off

and under no circumstances (other than fire or flutter) land for a

minimum

of 2 hours on the first flight of a new engine. I have used this high

power

(nothing under 2475 RPM changing every 10 minutes or so by 50 or 75 rpm

with

most of the flight at 2550 to 2600rpm) for 2 hours to over 6 x O-320's

in

the last 7 or 8 years. I can almost set my watch by the time that the

oil

temp/cyl head temps drop after take off....indictating that the rings

have

seated Every engine saw about a 50*F cylinder and a 20*F oil temp drop
within a few minutes of 1hr & 45 minutes of flight time. Didn't matter
whether they were steel, cermichrome or chrome cylinders. On my personal
chrome cylinders I get at least 10 hours / quart of oil which is almost
unheard of with chrome. Howard's Cermichrome's go about 12 hours /

quart.

Garry might be able to pipe in and tell use how far FOKM is going on a

quart

these days with it's steel cylinders. Did the same routine with my O-470

in

my C182 as well. O-470's are notorious for 1qt every 4 hours...mine went

9.

Cheers,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ted Waltman" <tedwaltman@i1ci.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, April 11, 2005 1:04 PM
Subject: RE: engine break in 0-320

I realize we're talking about an O-320 vs an M-14, but here's what

Carl

Hays recently told me about recommended break in procedures:
-----
Carl recommends babying the engine for the first few hours. Carl
indicates it is an [invalid] old-wives tale that to break an engine

in,

one should run the heck out of it for the first few hours to seat the
rings. This may have been appropriate before WW-II with the less
sophisticated metallurgy, but is not appropriate today. Carl has seen
rings ruined on the M-14 by folks who did run it too hard initially.
The Russians, with tons of time and labor, would break one in by

running

it on the ground at a very low power setting for 10 min. Then shut it
off and let it sit until it cooled down [for an hour?]. Then they

would

run it for 15 min adding 100 more rpm and let it sit again. They did
this, increasing the time by 5 min and the rpm by 100 until they had
perhaps 8 hours on the engine. Carl says while optimal, this approach
is excessive.

So, just don't run the engine at high temps for more than a very short
period of time [e.g. < 30 sec] during break-in.
-----
Much different engine break-in philosophy...

Ted Waltman

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of

Al

Paxhia
Sent: Monday, April 11, 2005 10:59 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: engine break in 0-320


IMHO, I would spend the extra bucks and have them do the break in. The
taxi
tests and such that you will be doing are not good on a new engine. It
needs
to pushed at 75% power or better for the first few hours. If your not
able
to follow the prescribed break in, you may have trouble long term. Al
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jones, Michael" <MJones@hatch.ca>
To: "Rebel-Builders EMIAL (E-mail)" <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, April 11, 2005 7:22 AM
Subject: engine break in 0-320

i

done

----------------------------------------------------------------------

recipient

disseminate,

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