FUEL ECONOMY

[Jones, Michael]

HI ALL

so since I still have no engine and can change my mind I am wondering what
engine out there gets best fuel economy any body have comments, considering
world price record of 58 barrel yesterday I see huge jumps in price of avgas
and auto gas, guessing auto conversion is best choice and most likely a
Subaru, like rotary but don't think 13b can match sub, perhaps the new
rotary renesis

mike#007

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[Walter Klatt]

Mike, unless you go diesel, most of the aircraft engines have
similar pounds per hp per hour of fuel burns. And from what I've
seen the auto engines aren't much different, including the soobs.
If some of those seem lower, it is more likely they aren't
producing the power.

You save a lot of money with mogas, though, especially if it can
handle regular octane. Also, I use a fuel flow monitor, which
allows me to lean more accurately which I believe has paid for
itself a couple times, too, in my airplane, plus it gives me all
the other benefits of accurate fuel management.

With my 0320 Rebel on amphibs, I will often give rides in the
summer to friends at the lake, and if I throttle back to 2000
rpm, and leaned right, it's only burning 5 gph at 80 mph. They
don't know the difference and get the same thrill with sight
seeing around the lake as if I would be going faster.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Jones, Michael
Sent: Friday, March 18, 2005 6:39 AM
To: Rebel-Builders EMIAL (E-mail)
Subject: FUEL ECONOMY


HI ALL

so since I still have no engine and can change my mind
I am wondering what
engine out there gets best fuel economy any body have
comments, considering
world price record of 58 barrel yesterday I see huge
jumps in price of avgas
and auto gas, guessing auto conversion is best choice
and most likely a
Subaru, like rotary but don't think 13b can match sub,
perhaps the new
rotary renesis

mike#007

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HATCH immediately via mailto:MailAdmin@hatch.ca.



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[Ken]

1. diesel
2. rotax (especially a 912) and automotive that is setup for economy
2a. renesis wankel (I'm guessing)
3. Lycoming
3a. older wankel (some say as good as #3)

Don't lose sight of the annual fuel cost difference though and total
ownership cost. Few private aircraft fly more than 50 hours per year and
the annual fuel savings best to worst are likely less than $1500 with
$3. per liter fuel in N.America. I'd still guess that over 5 to 10
years a used 0-235 or 912 is going to be near the bottom of the total
cost equation. I'd still guess that an 0-320 will give maximum resale
value over the next few years.

If world oil production is close to peaking, and rationing follows as
demand keeps rising (my opinion) or if world production simply can't be
raised as fast as demand (also likely IMO), then getting it in the air
sooner, with an off the shelf powerplant, may bring more total enjoyment
than delaying for possible future fuel savings. How's that for
depressing... ;(

Ken

Jones, Michael wrote:

HI ALL

so since I still have no engine and can change my mind I am wondering what
engine out there gets best fuel economy any body have comments, considering
world price record of 58 barrel yesterday I see huge jumps in price of avgas
and auto gas, guessing auto conversion is best choice and most likely a
Subaru, like rotary but don't think 13b can match sub, perhaps the new
rotary renesis

mike#007

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[Jones, Michael]

good one ken, think you better sit down and have a pint

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of Ken
Sent: Friday, March 18, 2005 11:05 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: FUEL ECONOMY


1. diesel
2. rotax (especially a 912) and automotive that is setup for economy
2a. renesis wankel (I'm guessing)
3. Lycoming
3a. older wankel (some say as good as #3)

Don't lose sight of the annual fuel cost difference though and total
ownership cost. Few private aircraft fly more than 50 hours per year and
the annual fuel savings best to worst are likely less than $1500 with
$3. per liter fuel in N.America. I'd still guess that over 5 to 10
years a used 0-235 or 912 is going to be near the bottom of the total
cost equation. I'd still guess that an 0-320 will give maximum resale
value over the next few years.

If world oil production is close to peaking, and rationing follows as
demand keeps rising (my opinion) or if world production simply can't be
raised as fast as demand (also likely IMO), then getting it in the air
sooner, with an off the shelf powerplant, may bring more total enjoyment
than delaying for possible future fuel savings. How's that for
depressing... ;(

Ken

Jones, Michael wrote:

HI ALL

so since I still have no engine and can change my mind I am wondering what
engine out there gets best fuel economy any body have comments, considering
world price record of 58 barrel yesterday I see huge jumps in price of

avgas

and auto gas, guessing auto conversion is best choice and most likely a
Subaru, like rotary but don't think 13b can match sub, perhaps the new
rotary renesis

mike#007

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[Reed Britt Civ OO-ALC/MAD]

Mike - If I remember you were looking at the NSI 6 cyl Subaru - seems like
it would be good to stay away from a motor that is out of production. The
wrx sure puts it out but might be wrapped a little tight - Good for a Rebel
or a light Super Rebel.

The Genesis is really interesting but I haven't noticed much reference to
them. Any good sites out there with info??

The GM LS2 seems to have a lot of info out there -

Britt - SR194

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Jones,
Michael
Sent: Friday, March 18, 2005 7:39 AM
To: Rebel-Builders EMIAL (E-mail)
Subject: FUEL ECONOMY

HI ALL

so since I still have no engine and can change my mind I am wondering what
engine out there gets best fuel economy any body have comments, considering
world price record of 58 barrel yesterday I see huge jumps in price of avgas
and auto gas, guessing auto conversion is best choice and most likely a
Subaru, like rotary but don't think 13b can match sub, perhaps the new
rotary renesis

mike#007

----------------------------------------------------------------------

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confidential and/or privileged. If you are not the intended recipient
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[Bob Patterson]

Hi Mike !

Well, you know where MY vote goes - right back where you started
from !! The Rotax 912 is almost impossible to beat for fuel economy -
we had 10 years of happy flying, with 3 gallons/hr. as the MAX consumption !

Not only was the 912 great on fuel, but the regular maintenance was
limited to new spark plugs every 200 - 300 hours, and a couple of new
air filters - just a GREAT engine !! Today, I would go to the 912-S, as
a few extra horses never hurts, and a bit more fuel is bearable, since
it's mogas ... My NEXT Rebel WILL have a 912-S !

Next choice would be a Subaru 2.5 or 2.2, with a Marcotte re-drive.
My experience flying Subaru-powered Rebels has shown fuel burns in
the 5-6 gph range - considerably less than the Lycosaurus, and again,
more reasonable maintenance costs. This would involve a fair bit of
extra work to put together, though, if you want to keep costs low.
If you buy a complete FWF package - from Crossflow, for example,
it will cost at least as much, or more, than a new Lycoming !
I would hope there's nobody left who would even <consider> dealing
with NSI , given their record !!

I totally agree with Ken - if you want to get flying quickly, and have
the highest resale value, just put in an overhauled O-320 from Leavens,
and GO FLYING !!! He's right on regarding the average flying hours -
after the thrill of the first year is gone, many people look at the costs,
and decide not to go flying - unfortunate in several ways, but reality ! :-(

.......bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Friday 18 March 2005 09:38 am, Jones, Michael wrote:

HI ALL

so since I still have no engine and can change my mind I am wondering what
engine out there gets best fuel economy any body have comments, considering
world price record of 58 barrel yesterday I see huge jumps in price of avgas
and auto gas, guessing auto conversion is best choice and most likely a
Subaru, like rotary but don't think 13b can match sub, perhaps the new
rotary renesis

mike#007

----------------------------------------------------------------------

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confidential and/or privileged. If you are not the intended recipient
of this message you are hereby notified that you must not disseminate,
copy or take any action with respect to it.

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[Ken]

Yeah my homebrew ran dry and I've been slow celebrating St. Patrick's
day ;)
Ken

Jones, Michael wrote:

good one ken, think you better sit down and have a pint

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[Reed Britt Civ OO-ALC/MAD]

Mike - Aren't you a Super Rebel?

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Bob
Patterson
Sent: Friday, March 18, 2005 10:12 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: FUEL ECONOMY


Hi Mike !

Well, you know where MY vote goes - right back where you started
from !! The Rotax 912 is almost impossible to beat for fuel economy -
we had 10 years of happy flying, with 3 gallons/hr. as the MAX consumption !

Not only was the 912 great on fuel, but the regular maintenance was
limited to new spark plugs every 200 - 300 hours, and a couple of new
air filters - just a GREAT engine !! Today, I would go to the 912-S, as
a few extra horses never hurts, and a bit more fuel is bearable, since
it's mogas ... My NEXT Rebel WILL have a 912-S !

Next choice would be a Subaru 2.5 or 2.2, with a Marcotte re-drive.
My experience flying Subaru-powered Rebels has shown fuel burns in
the 5-6 gph range - considerably less than the Lycosaurus, and again,
more reasonable maintenance costs. This would involve a fair bit of
extra work to put together, though, if you want to keep costs low.
If you buy a complete FWF package - from Crossflow, for example,
it will cost at least as much, or more, than a new Lycoming !
I would hope there's nobody left who would even <consider> dealing
with NSI , given their record !!

I totally agree with Ken - if you want to get flying quickly, and have
the highest resale value, just put in an overhauled O-320 from Leavens,
and GO FLYING !!! He's right on regarding the average flying hours -
after the thrill of the first year is gone, many people look at the costs,
and decide not to go flying - unfortunate in several ways, but reality !
:-(

.......bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Friday 18 March 2005 09:38 am, Jones, Michael wrote:

HI ALL

so since I still have no engine and can change my mind I am wondering what
engine out there gets best fuel economy any body have comments,

considering

world price record of 58 barrel yesterday I see huge jumps in price of

avgas

and auto gas, guessing auto conversion is best choice and most likely a
Subaru, like rotary but don't think 13b can match sub, perhaps the new
rotary renesis

mike#007

----------------------------------------------------------------------

NOTICE - This message is the property of HATCH. It may also be
confidential and/or privileged. If you are not the intended recipient
of this message you are hereby notified that you must not disseminate,
copy or take any action with respect to it.

If you have received this message in error please notify
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[Jones, Michael]

rebel not super rebel, rather have super rebel actually

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Reed Britt Civ OO-ALC/MADE
Sent: Friday, March 18, 2005 3:56 PM
To: 'rebel-builders@dcsol.com'
Subject: RE: FUEL ECONOMY


Mike - Aren't you a Super Rebel?

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Bob
Patterson
Sent: Friday, March 18, 2005 10:12 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: FUEL ECONOMY


Hi Mike !

Well, you know where MY vote goes - right back where you started
from !! The Rotax 912 is almost impossible to beat for fuel economy -
we had 10 years of happy flying, with 3 gallons/hr. as the MAX consumption !

Not only was the 912 great on fuel, but the regular maintenance was
limited to new spark plugs every 200 - 300 hours, and a couple of new
air filters - just a GREAT engine !! Today, I would go to the 912-S, as
a few extra horses never hurts, and a bit more fuel is bearable, since
it's mogas ... My NEXT Rebel WILL have a 912-S !

Next choice would be a Subaru 2.5 or 2.2, with a Marcotte re-drive.
My experience flying Subaru-powered Rebels has shown fuel burns in
the 5-6 gph range - considerably less than the Lycosaurus, and again,
more reasonable maintenance costs. This would involve a fair bit of
extra work to put together, though, if you want to keep costs low.
If you buy a complete FWF package - from Crossflow, for example,
it will cost at least as much, or more, than a new Lycoming !
I would hope there's nobody left who would even <consider> dealing
with NSI , given their record !!

I totally agree with Ken - if you want to get flying quickly, and have
the highest resale value, just put in an overhauled O-320 from Leavens,
and GO FLYING !!! He's right on regarding the average flying hours -
after the thrill of the first year is gone, many people look at the costs,
and decide not to go flying - unfortunate in several ways, but reality !
:-(

.......bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Friday 18 March 2005 09:38 am, Jones, Michael wrote:

HI ALL

so since I still have no engine and can change my mind I am wondering what
engine out there gets best fuel economy any body have comments,

considering

world price record of 58 barrel yesterday I see huge jumps in price of

avgas

and auto gas, guessing auto conversion is best choice and most likely a
Subaru, like rotary but don't think 13b can match sub, perhaps the new
rotary renesis

mike#007

----------------------------------------------------------------------

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confidential and/or privileged. If you are not the intended recipient
of this message you are hereby notified that you must not disseminate,
copy or take any action with respect to it.

If you have received this message in error please notify
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[Reed Britt Civ OO-ALC/MAD]

I thought a 912 in a Super Rebel would be a little under - Seems like there
are some cool diesels out there that might be appropriate (specially
considering fuel economy) - Local guy is putting one in an RV7 -

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Jones,
Michael
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 5:35 AM
To: 'rebel-builders@dcsol.com'
Subject: RE: FUEL ECONOMY

rebel not super rebel, rather have super rebel actually

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Reed Britt Civ OO-ALC/MADE
Sent: Friday, March 18, 2005 3:56 PM
To: 'rebel-builders@dcsol.com'
Subject: RE: FUEL ECONOMY


Mike - Aren't you a Super Rebel?

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Bob
Patterson
Sent: Friday, March 18, 2005 10:12 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: FUEL ECONOMY


Hi Mike !

Well, you know where MY vote goes - right back where you started
from !! The Rotax 912 is almost impossible to beat for fuel economy -
we had 10 years of happy flying, with 3 gallons/hr. as the MAX consumption !

Not only was the 912 great on fuel, but the regular maintenance was
limited to new spark plugs every 200 - 300 hours, and a couple of new
air filters - just a GREAT engine !! Today, I would go to the 912-S, as
a few extra horses never hurts, and a bit more fuel is bearable, since
it's mogas ... My NEXT Rebel WILL have a 912-S !

Next choice would be a Subaru 2.5 or 2.2, with a Marcotte re-drive.
My experience flying Subaru-powered Rebels has shown fuel burns in
the 5-6 gph range - considerably less than the Lycosaurus, and again,
more reasonable maintenance costs. This would involve a fair bit of
extra work to put together, though, if you want to keep costs low.
If you buy a complete FWF package - from Crossflow, for example,
it will cost at least as much, or more, than a new Lycoming !
I would hope there's nobody left who would even <consider> dealing
with NSI , given their record !!

I totally agree with Ken - if you want to get flying quickly, and have
the highest resale value, just put in an overhauled O-320 from Leavens,
and GO FLYING !!! He's right on regarding the average flying hours -
after the thrill of the first year is gone, many people look at the costs,
and decide not to go flying - unfortunate in several ways, but reality !
:-(

.......bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Friday 18 March 2005 09:38 am, Jones, Michael wrote:

HI ALL

so since I still have no engine and can change my mind I am wondering what
engine out there gets best fuel economy any body have comments,

considering

world price record of 58 barrel yesterday I see huge jumps in price of

avgas

and auto gas, guessing auto conversion is best choice and most likely a
Subaru, like rotary but don't think 13b can match sub, perhaps the new
rotary renesis

mike#007

----------------------------------------------------------------------

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confidential and/or privileged. If you are not the intended recipient
of this message you are hereby notified that you must not disseminate,
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[John Kramer]

Bob P., etal,

Though I am interested in fuel economy; for me every decision revolves more
around weight.

I am trying to build a standard Rebel to fly under the 1320 lb USA Sport
Pilot rules. I've heard a lot of pro and con for the 912uls and almost
nothing about the 914. Why? Don't they use the same mount and only have
about a 20 lb difference?

I've also been investigating Jabiru, Subaru, Fat VW's, Hirth, HCI, Wankel,
Rotec, Corvair, and more. All the diesels seem too heavy
for consideration. W. Wynne claims his Corvair installations end up
lighter than a 1.8 Subaru and for the life of me I can't figure how.

At present I am leaning toward the Rotax with Subaru as first alternative,
but I haven't spent any FF money yet and can't quit wondering why the 914
doesn't get much mention.

I would like the power of an 0-320 but..... reality (and the FAA) rules.

John...

At 06:35 AM 03/21/05, you wrote:

Hi Mike !

Well, you know where MY vote goes - right back where you started
from !! The Rotax 912 is almost impossible to beat for fuel economy -
we had 10 years of happy flying, with 3 gallons/hr. as the MAX consumption !

Not only was the 912 great on fuel, but the regular maintenance was
limited to new spark plugs every 200 - 300 hours, and a couple of new
air filters - just a GREAT engine !! Today, I would go to the 912-S, as
a few extra horses never hurts, and a bit more fuel is bearable, since
it's mogas ... My NEXT Rebel WILL have a 912-S !

Next choice would be a Subaru 2.5 or 2.2, with a Marcotte re-drive.
My experience flying Subaru-powered Rebels has shown fuel burns in
the 5-6 gph range - considerably less than the Lycosaurus, and again,
more reasonable maintenance costs. This would involve a fair bit of
extra work to put together, though, if you want to keep costs low.
If you buy a complete FWF package - from Crossflow, for example,
it will cost at least as much, or more, than a new Lycoming !
I would hope there's nobody left who would even <consider> dealing
with NSI , given their record !!

I totally agree with Ken - if you want to get flying quickly, and have
the highest resale value, just put in an overhauled O-320 from Leavens,
and GO FLYING !!! He's right on regarding the average flying hours -
after the thrill of the first year is gone, many people look at the costs,
and decide not to go flying - unfortunate in several ways, but reality !
:-(

.......bobp

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[Jean Poirier]

Hello John

Iam building a Rebel too but under canadian homebuilt which will give me
1650# g.w. You should e:mail Ken Beansland at kbeanlan@ab.ca , he is
almost ready to fly if not flying a rebel with a jabiru 3300 (120 hp). I
will alose talk for more info with greatplains at the sun'fun about the
volks with liquid cylinder 100hp or 120hp with reduction. Cheap to
built,maintain and repait but reliability is my question at that output....
My only concern about Rotax, is complete installation cost .... To all
people who I have talked that run 912, this seem to be the guide line: a
Katana in a school with student use and 100LL fuel give a very bad
combination.... for a private owner who run it normally with mogas, very
good engine..... Anyway I don't know which engine will be mine
too.......

Jean
Rebel 747R
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Kramer" <369R@kramers.org>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 2:16 PM
Subject: RE: FUEL ECONOMY

Bob P., etal,

Though I am interested in fuel economy; for me every decision revolves
more
around weight.

I am trying to build a standard Rebel to fly under the 1320 lb USA Sport
Pilot rules. I've heard a lot of pro and con for the 912uls and almost
nothing about the 914. Why? Don't they use the same mount and only have
about a 20 lb difference?

I've also been investigating Jabiru, Subaru, Fat VW's, Hirth, HCI, Wankel,
Rotec, Corvair, and more. All the diesels seem too heavy
for consideration. W. Wynne claims his Corvair installations end up
lighter than a 1.8 Subaru and for the life of me I can't figure how.

At present I am leaning toward the Rotax with Subaru as first alternative,
but I haven't spent any FF money yet and can't quit wondering why the 914
doesn't get much mention.

I would like the power of an 0-320 but..... reality (and the FAA) rules.

John...

At 06:35 AM 03/21/05, you wrote:

Hi Mike !

Well, you know where MY vote goes - right back where you started
from !! The Rotax 912 is almost impossible to beat for fuel economy -
we had 10 years of happy flying, with 3 gallons/hr. as the MAX consumption
!

Not only was the 912 great on fuel, but the regular maintenance was
limited to new spark plugs every 200 - 300 hours, and a couple of new
air filters - just a GREAT engine !! Today, I would go to the 912-S, as
a few extra horses never hurts, and a bit more fuel is bearable, since
it's mogas ... My NEXT Rebel WILL have a 912-S !

Next choice would be a Subaru 2.5 or 2.2, with a Marcotte re-drive.
My experience flying Subaru-powered Rebels has shown fuel burns in
the 5-6 gph range - considerably less than the Lycosaurus, and again,
more reasonable maintenance costs. This would involve a fair bit of
extra work to put together, though, if you want to keep costs low.
If you buy a complete FWF package - from Crossflow, for example,
it will cost at least as much, or more, than a new Lycoming !
I would hope there's nobody left who would even <consider> dealing
with NSI , given their record !!

I totally agree with Ken - if you want to get flying quickly, and have
the highest resale value, just put in an overhauled O-320 from Leavens,
and GO FLYING !!! He's right on regarding the average flying hours -
after the thrill of the first year is gone, many people look at the costs,
and decide not to go flying - unfortunate in several ways, but reality !
:-(

.......bobp

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[Jean Poirier]

Oups..

The 914? you say the 914? Cut the TBO of a 912S by 60%, add $10 000.00
usd and you have a 15 hp extra in a much more fragile engine! Until you
are in a very low pressure area (compare to sea level), it is expensive
per horsepower! my idea (a coin value)

Jean
Rebel 747R
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Kramer" <369R@kramers.org>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 2:16 PM
Subject: RE: FUEL ECONOMY

Bob P., etal,

Though I am interested in fuel economy; for me every decision revolves
more
around weight.

I am trying to build a standard Rebel to fly under the 1320 lb USA Sport
Pilot rules. I've heard a lot of pro and con for the 912uls and almost
nothing about the 914. Why? Don't they use the same mount and only have
about a 20 lb difference?

I've also been investigating Jabiru, Subaru, Fat VW's, Hirth, HCI, Wankel,
Rotec, Corvair, and more. All the diesels seem too heavy
for consideration. W. Wynne claims his Corvair installations end up
lighter than a 1.8 Subaru and for the life of me I can't figure how.

At present I am leaning toward the Rotax with Subaru as first alternative,
but I haven't spent any FF money yet and can't quit wondering why the 914
doesn't get much mention.

I would like the power of an 0-320 but..... reality (and the FAA) rules.

John...

At 06:35 AM 03/21/05, you wrote:

Hi Mike !

Well, you know where MY vote goes - right back where you started
from !! The Rotax 912 is almost impossible to beat for fuel economy -
we had 10 years of happy flying, with 3 gallons/hr. as the MAX consumption
!

Not only was the 912 great on fuel, but the regular maintenance was
limited to new spark plugs every 200 - 300 hours, and a couple of new
air filters - just a GREAT engine !! Today, I would go to the 912-S, as
a few extra horses never hurts, and a bit more fuel is bearable, since
it's mogas ... My NEXT Rebel WILL have a 912-S !

Next choice would be a Subaru 2.5 or 2.2, with a Marcotte re-drive.
My experience flying Subaru-powered Rebels has shown fuel burns in
the 5-6 gph range - considerably less than the Lycosaurus, and again,
more reasonable maintenance costs. This would involve a fair bit of
extra work to put together, though, if you want to keep costs low.
If you buy a complete FWF package - from Crossflow, for example,
it will cost at least as much, or more, than a new Lycoming !
I would hope there's nobody left who would even <consider> dealing
with NSI , given their record !!

I totally agree with Ken - if you want to get flying quickly, and have
the highest resale value, just put in an overhauled O-320 from Leavens,
and GO FLYING !!! He's right on regarding the average flying hours -
after the thrill of the first year is gone, many people look at the costs,
and decide not to go flying - unfortunate in several ways, but reality !
:-(

.......bobp

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[Rick Harper]

G'day Guys ('n'Gals)

Just got back from the AVALON Airshow in Melbourne .......
(nearly "bought the farm" as they say - TWICE, trying to get out of
Sydney (BAD weather, low clouds & HILLS :o( .... ended up on a kero
burner to get there .... considered a turbine / prop engine for the
Rebel for a while there ...... BAD fuel economy

The ROTEC guys were in our Sport Aircraft stand ...
http://www.rotecradialengines.com/

& now I'm REALLY interested in sticking one of these in our Rebel !!!
There is ONE model now .... but another coming

1) 7 Cylinder, 2800cc, geared engine - putting out 110 HP (but more like
140 HP due to gearing
and using 20 Lts / hr ..... at 108 Kgs

2) 9 Cylinder - coming, geared engine - putting out 150 HP (but will
probably be more like 180 -
200 HP at the prop !!!) ..... and at around 125 Kgs

Rick & Wendy
541R

Off to Narromine for the BIG Ultralight fly - in this coming weekend
(I'm on Hol's !
----- Original Message -----
From: Jean Poirier
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 7:20 AM
Subject: Re: FUEL ECONOMY


Oups..

The 914? you say the 914? Cut the TBO of a 912S by 60%, add $10
000.00
usd and you have a 15 hp extra in a much more fragile engine! Until
you
are in a very low pressure area (compare to sea level), it is
expensive
per horsepower! my idea (a coin value)

Jean
Rebel 747R
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Kramer" <369R@kramers.org>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 2:16 PM
Subject: RE: FUEL ECONOMY

Bob P., etal,

Though I am interested in fuel economy; for me every decision

revolves

more
around weight.

I am trying to build a standard Rebel to fly under the 1320 lb USA

Sport

Pilot rules. I've heard a lot of pro and con for the 912uls and

almost

nothing about the 914. Why? Don't they use the same mount and only

have

about a 20 lb difference?

I've also been investigating Jabiru, Subaru, Fat VW's, Hirth, HCI,

Wankel,

Rotec, Corvair, and more. All the diesels seem too heavy
for consideration. W. Wynne claims his Corvair installations end

up

lighter than a 1.8 Subaru and for the life of me I can't figure how.

At present I am leaning toward the Rotax with Subaru as first

alternative,

but I haven't spent any FF money yet and can't quit wondering why

the 914

doesn't get much mention.

I would like the power of an 0-320 but..... reality (and the FAA)

rules.

John...

At 06:35 AM 03/21/05, you wrote:

Hi Mike !

Well, you know where MY vote goes - right back where you started
from !! The Rotax 912 is almost impossible to beat for fuel

economy -

we had 10 years of happy flying, with 3 gallons/hr. as the MAX

consumption

!

Not only was the 912 great on fuel, but the regular maintenance

was

limited to new spark plugs every 200 - 300 hours, and a couple of

new

air filters - just a GREAT engine !! Today, I would go to the

912-S, as

a few extra horses never hurts, and a bit more fuel is bearable,

since

it's mogas ... My NEXT Rebel WILL have a 912-S !

Next choice would be a Subaru 2.5 or 2.2, with a Marcotte

re-drive.

My experience flying Subaru-powered Rebels has shown fuel burns in
the 5-6 gph range - considerably less than the Lycosaurus, and

again,

more reasonable maintenance costs. This would involve a fair bit

of

extra work to put together, though, if you want to keep costs low.
If you buy a complete FWF package - from Crossflow, for example,
it will cost at least as much, or more, than a new Lycoming !
I would hope there's nobody left who would even <consider> dealing
with NSI , given their record !!

I totally agree with Ken - if you want to get flying quickly, and

have

the highest resale value, just put in an overhauled O-320 from

Leavens,

and GO FLYING !!! He's right on regarding the average flying hours

-

after the thrill of the first year is gone, many people look at the

costs,

and decide not to go flying - unfortunate in several ways, but

reality !

:-(

.......bobp

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[Bob Patterson]

Hi John !

You are not alone in building a Rebel for the Sport Plane category.
There should be absolutely NO PROBLEM doing this, and you will
have an excellent sportplane !!

Our Rebel (#001) weighed 716 lb., with upholstery, carpet, and paint,
and a standard 912 installation. If you take today's Rebel (1,650), and do
the standard Murphy 912 (or 912-S) installation, you should come in about
720 - 780 lb. - VERY attractive, compared to many kits and factory builts
in this class !!!

I would recommend using 2 bays of fuel on both sides, giving about
30 gallons total. You definitely do NOT want to haul around 300 lb. of fuel,
OR fly with half tanks and pick up condensation !! Our Rebel only held
about 11 gallons ... but we used a red gas can in the baggage area for
longer trips - worked great !!

I would go with the 912-S, as the extra hp. over a regular 912, for
little extra cost and only a pound or 2 of weight, is a good trade !

The 914 is not a good choice - MUCH more expensive, harder
to install, with all the extra plumbing, heavier, and not NEARLY
as reliable. Several nearby with broken cranks at 300 hr. !

My experience here with VW's and Corvairs is that the reliability
isn't there (especially the corvairs!), and they rev too high, so require
a short prop, with limited thrust, and are not a good choice for the Rebel.
The Subaru EA-81, 1.8 L is 'WAY too heavy for the power, and you
would have to do all the design & engineering yourself - don't even THINK
about NSI !! The EA-82 has not proven as reliable as the EA-81 - in any
case, both are out of production.

While other engines sound attractive, we've learned that any change
from an off-the-shelf, factory-supported solution will add AT LEAST
6 months to your build time !!
Just get it flying and enjoy your Rebel !! ;-)

At the moment, the Rotax 912 is THE lightest, most cost-effective,
reliable choice for the Rebel, particularly for the Sport Class. We flew
our 912 Rebel over 1,000 hours, all over North America, and the
total maintenance was 5 or 6 sets of spark plugs, and a couple of
air filters. Regular oil changes every 50 hr., with filters readily available
at auto shops, and fuel burns in the 3 gph range, premium unleaded.

With the 912-S, if you can get a good variable pitch prop, you
should see 110 mph + cruise. The 912 gave us 97 mph, with a ground
adjustable wood prop (GSC), and about 1,100 fpm climb solo, and
700 fpm at gross - a really great all-around fun airplane !! Takeoffs
took under 200 ft., as did landings !

.......bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Monday 21 March 2005 02:16 pm, John Kramer wrote:

Bob P., etal,

Though I am interested in fuel economy; for me every decision revolves more
around weight.

I am trying to build a standard Rebel to fly under the 1320 lb USA Sport
Pilot rules. I've heard a lot of pro and con for the 912uls and almost
nothing about the 914. Why? Don't they use the same mount and only have
about a 20 lb difference?

I've also been investigating Jabiru, Subaru, Fat VW's, Hirth, HCI, Wankel,
Rotec, Corvair, and more. All the diesels seem too heavy
for consideration. W. Wynne claims his Corvair installations end up
lighter than a 1.8 Subaru and for the life of me I can't figure how.

At present I am leaning toward the Rotax with Subaru as first alternative,
but I haven't spent any FF money yet and can't quit wondering why the 914
doesn't get much mention.

I would like the power of an 0-320 but..... reality (and the FAA) rules.

John...

At 06:35 AM 03/21/05, you wrote:

Hi Mike !

Well, you know where MY vote goes - right back where you started
from !! The Rotax 912 is almost impossible to beat for fuel economy -
we had 10 years of happy flying, with 3 gallons/hr. as the MAX

consumption !

Not only was the 912 great on fuel, but the regular maintenance was
limited to new spark plugs every 200 - 300 hours, and a couple of new
air filters - just a GREAT engine !! Today, I would go to the 912-S, as
a few extra horses never hurts, and a bit more fuel is bearable, since
it's mogas ... My NEXT Rebel WILL have a 912-S !

Next choice would be a Subaru 2.5 or 2.2, with a Marcotte re-drive.
My experience flying Subaru-powered Rebels has shown fuel burns in
the 5-6 gph range - considerably less than the Lycosaurus, and again,
more reasonable maintenance costs. This would involve a fair bit of
extra work to put together, though, if you want to keep costs low.
If you buy a complete FWF package - from Crossflow, for example,
it will cost at least as much, or more, than a new Lycoming !
I would hope there's nobody left who would even <consider> dealing
with NSI , given their record !!

I totally agree with Ken - if you want to get flying quickly, and have
the highest resale value, just put in an overhauled O-320 from Leavens,
and GO FLYING !!! He's right on regarding the average flying hours -
after the thrill of the first year is gone, many people look at the costs,
and decide not to go flying - unfortunate in several ways, but reality !
:-(

.......bobp

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