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Rebel #637 Mods - leading edge

Converted from Wildcat! database. (read only)
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Bob Patterson

Rebel #637 Mods - leading edge

Post by Bob Patterson » Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:58 am

Hi Steve !

I certainly hope not, or I wouldn't have been able to fly all my
Rebels all these years !!! ;-) :-)

Seriously, according to several Globe Swift modifiers, who produce
some beautiful restoration/modification aircraft, flush rivetting makes
"No significant difference unless you are flying above 300 mph. !" - an
exact quote ! In as much as some of these guys had spent over $300K
on rebuilding their Swifts, I have to believe their experiences !!
Certainly, there are some airfoils that NEED a bit of surface roughness
to maintain flow adhesion - I once owned a glider that, if you polished the
top surface of the wings, it would increase the stall speed, and decrease
the handling & gliding performance !!! I didn't believe the other builders -
until I polished mine .... once !

This effect has been noted on the Rebel/Moose airfoil - at least some
examples actually cruised slower with a countersunk & filled leading edge !!

A turbulent airflow, from VG's, will actually adhere tighter to the
wing than a smooth airflow, in many cases. There is always a boundary
layer - With some aircraft with laminar flow airfoils - some Cherokees,
the Yankee, and others, if you raise the nose too early on the takeoff
roll, the laminar flow will separate from the back of the wing, and you can
roll for MILES without climbing !!! (It is effectively stalled !)

.........bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Sunday 09 January 2005 01:15 pm, steve whitenect wrote:
Hi Bob
Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought a clean leading edge from the top of
the large spar around to a foot or so under the front of the wing was
desireable for undestirbed air flow. If trying to create an air flow tight
to the wing with generators ahead of the large spar, haven't you already
stalled!?

Steve
From: Bob Patterson <beep@sympatico.ca>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Subject: Re: Rebel #637 Mods
Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 13:34:35 -0500

Hi Steve !

For anyone who doesn't want to do all this work, you <could> just order
a set of Elite leading edge skins (they are .032, and pre-formed &
punched, ready to install). Apparently, the only reason for making
them .032 was so they couldn't be as easily dented while refuelling !!!
Never had that problem with a Rebel, but .....

As for the countersinking - to each his own, but I've always contended
that the raised rivet heads are built-in vortex generators... ;-^)

:-)

(The turbulator tape applied to glider wings (& propellor leading edges)
has
bumps that are less than 1/8" high, and that seems to work for some !)

............bobp

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Wayne G. O'Shea

Rebel #637 Mods - leading edge

Post by Wayne G. O'Shea » Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:58 am

Same thing goes for props...I never clean mine as bug splattered ones spins
faster thru the air! :o)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Patterson" <beep@sympatico.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 8:38 PM
Subject: Re: Rebel #637 Mods - leading edge

Hi Steve !

I certainly hope not, or I wouldn't have been able to fly all my
Rebels all these years !!! ;-) :-)

Seriously, according to several Globe Swift modifiers, who produce
some beautiful restoration/modification aircraft, flush rivetting makes
"No significant difference unless you are flying above 300 mph. !" - an
exact quote ! In as much as some of these guys had spent over $300K
on rebuilding their Swifts, I have to believe their experiences !!
Certainly, there are some airfoils that NEED a bit of surface roughness
to maintain flow adhesion - I once owned a glider that, if you polished
the
top surface of the wings, it would increase the stall speed, and decrease
the handling & gliding performance !!! I didn't believe the other
builders -
until I polished mine .... once !

This effect has been noted on the Rebel/Moose airfoil - at least some
examples actually cruised slower with a countersunk & filled leading edge
!!
A turbulent airflow, from VG's, will actually adhere tighter to the
wing than a smooth airflow, in many cases. There is always a boundary
layer - With some aircraft with laminar flow airfoils - some Cherokees,
the Yankee, and others, if you raise the nose too early on the takeoff
roll, the laminar flow will separate from the back of the wing, and you
can
roll for MILES without climbing !!! (It is effectively stalled !)

.........bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Sunday 09 January 2005 01:15 pm, steve whitenect wrote:
Hi Bob
Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought a clean leading edge from the top
of
the large spar around to a foot or so under the front of the wing was
desireable for undestirbed air flow. If trying to create an air flow
tight
to the wing with generators ahead of the large spar, haven't you already
stalled!?

Steve
From: Bob Patterson <beep@sympatico.ca>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Subject: Re: Rebel #637 Mods
Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 13:34:35 -0500

Hi Steve !

For anyone who doesn't want to do all this work, you <could> just
order
a set of Elite leading edge skins (they are .032, and pre-formed &
punched, ready to install). Apparently, the only reason for making
them .032 was so they couldn't be as easily dented while refuelling
!!!
Never had that problem with a Rebel, but .....

As for the countersinking - to each his own, but I've always
contended
that the raised rivet heads are built-in vortex generators... ;-^)

:-)

(The turbulator tape applied to glider wings (& propellor leading
edges)
has
bumps that are less than 1/8" high, and that seems to work for some !)

............bobp

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Rick Harper

Rebel #637 Mods - leading edge

Post by Rick Harper » Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:58 am

Seriously ?!?!?

Rick 541R


Same thing goes for props...I never clean mine as bug splattered ones
spins
faster thru the air! :o)




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steve whitenect

Rebel #637 Mods - leading edge

Post by steve whitenect » Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:58 am

Thanks Guys!

All I'm left with now is that it looks nice and clean!!! I've slipped down
to flying a C210 for a living and it's clean on the front leading edge and
under the first two feet of the wing but of course it has a laminar flow
design. Just thought I would bea bit creative. Take care


SteveW
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Subject: Re: Rebel #637 Mods - leading edge
Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 20:46:51 -0500

Same thing goes for props...I never clean mine as bug splattered ones spins
faster thru the air! :o)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Patterson" <beep@sympatico.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 8:38 PM
Subject: Re: Rebel #637 Mods - leading edge

Hi Steve !

I certainly hope not, or I wouldn't have been able to fly all my
Rebels all these years !!! ;-) :-)

Seriously, according to several Globe Swift modifiers, who produce
some beautiful restoration/modification aircraft, flush rivetting makes
"No significant difference unless you are flying above 300 mph. !" - an
exact quote ! In as much as some of these guys had spent over $300K
on rebuilding their Swifts, I have to believe their experiences !!
Certainly, there are some airfoils that NEED a bit of surface roughness
to maintain flow adhesion - I once owned a glider that, if you polished
the
top surface of the wings, it would increase the stall speed, and
decrease
the handling & gliding performance !!! I didn't believe the other
builders -
until I polished mine .... once !

This effect has been noted on the Rebel/Moose airfoil - at least some
examples actually cruised slower with a countersunk & filled leading
edge
!!
A turbulent airflow, from VG's, will actually adhere tighter to the
wing than a smooth airflow, in many cases. There is always a boundary
layer - With some aircraft with laminar flow airfoils - some Cherokees,
the Yankee, and others, if you raise the nose too early on the takeoff
roll, the laminar flow will separate from the back of the wing, and you
can
roll for MILES without climbing !!! (It is effectively stalled !)

.........bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Sunday 09 January 2005 01:15 pm, steve whitenect wrote:
Hi Bob
Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought a clean leading edge from the
top
of
the large spar around to a foot or so under the front of the wing was
desireable for undestirbed air flow. If trying to create an air flow
tight
to the wing with generators ahead of the large spar, haven't you
already
stalled!?

Steve
order
making
!!!
contended
;-^)
edges)
!)

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Wayne G. O'Shea

Rebel #637 Mods - leading edge

Post by Wayne G. O'Shea » Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:58 am

Yes Rick, SERIOUSLY, I never clean it! :0)

And I am told and have read that a dirty propellor will see a higher RPM
than a clean one and why turbulator tape is being put on blades as well. I'm
sure others read the article as well here in Canada, of Wayne Winters, where
they cleaned the prop on their 2 stroke training plane and if barely got off
the ground. They had to repitch it finer and then found after it mashed a
few thousand grass hoppers it was red lining and had to pitch it courser
again. Clean vs bug spattered it made something like 400 RPM difference at
full power.

Cheers,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Rick Harper" <rjwh@optusnet.com.au>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 6:25 AM
Subject: Re: Rebel #637 Mods - leading edge

Seriously ?!?!?

Rick 541R


Same thing goes for props...I never clean mine as bug splattered ones
spins
faster thru the air! :o)




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Jim Cole

Rebel #637 Mods - leading edge

Post by Jim Cole » Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:58 am

Now Wayne is that because they are heavier or because they are slippery?
Yuk!
I find that pledge on my wooden prop for the Chief works great.

Jim
SR083Moose

Wayne G. O'Shea wrote:
Yes Rick, SERIOUSLY, I never clean it! :0)

And I am told and have read that a dirty propellor will see a higher RPM
than a clean one and why turbulator tape is being put on blades as well. I'm
sure others read the article as well here in Canada, of Wayne Winters, where
they cleaned the prop on their 2 stroke training plane and if barely got off
the ground. They had to repitch it finer and then found after it mashed a
few thousand grass hoppers it was red lining and had to pitch it courser
again. Clean vs bug spattered it made something like 400 RPM difference at
full power.

Cheers,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Rick Harper" <rjwh@optusnet.com.au>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 6:25 AM
Subject: Re: Rebel #637 Mods - leading edge



Seriously ?!?!?

Rick 541R


Same thing goes for props...I never clean mine as bug splattered ones
spins
faster thru the air! :o)




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Wayne G. O'Shea

Rebel #637 Mods - leading edge

Post by Wayne G. O'Shea » Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:58 am

Here is input from Brent Galye at MAM..who has many years in the aviation
industry! Note that 99% of us are running "conventional blade" airfoils and
that a dirty prop may see 11% increase in efficiency. Wayne


Lot's of propellers don't use supercritical airfoils and can benefit from
some turbulent airflow aiding in keeping the airflow attached. I have heard
of studies that show an almost 11% increase in efficiency with a
contaminated blade as opposed to a clean blade on conventional propeller
airfoils. Newer props that do use a supercritical airfoil can see a
reduction in efficiency with surface contamination. Supercritical airfoils
will loose almost twice that amount of efficiency with the same amount of
contamination. Fan blades in the CFM56 that powers a lot of commercial
aircraft today has absolutely no tolerance to blade contamination. Routine
maintenance includes compressor washing etc. If not cleaned regularly the
engine I have been told can become a right fuel hog in comparison to clean
engines.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Cole" <jcole@rangroup.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 11:50 AM
Subject: Re: Rebel #637 Mods - leading edge

Now Wayne is that because they are heavier or because they are slippery?
Yuk!
I find that pledge on my wooden prop for the Chief works great.

Jim
SR083Moose

Wayne G. O'Shea wrote:
Yes Rick, SERIOUSLY, I never clean it! :0)

And I am told and have read that a dirty propellor will see a higher RPM
than a clean one and why turbulator tape is being put on blades as well.
I'm
sure others read the article as well here in Canada, of Wayne Winters,
where
they cleaned the prop on their 2 stroke training plane and if barely got
off
the ground. They had to repitch it finer and then found after it mashed a
few thousand grass hoppers it was red lining and had to pitch it courser
again. Clean vs bug spattered it made something like 400 RPM difference
at
full power.

Cheers,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Rick Harper" <rjwh@optusnet.com.au>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 6:25 AM
Subject: Re: Rebel #637 Mods - leading edge



Seriously ?!?!?

Rick 541R


Same thing goes for props...I never clean mine as bug splattered ones
spins
faster thru the air! :o)




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Walter Klatt

Rebel #637 Mods - leading edge

Post by Walter Klatt » Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:58 am

Hmmm, wonder if I should stop cleaning off the bugs from my wing
leading edge, too. So why do they say frost or icing on your
leading edge is dangerous??

Walter
-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Wayne G. O'Shea
Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 10:12 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Rebel #637 Mods - leading edge


Here is input from Brent Galye at MAM..who has many
years in the aviation
industry! Note that 99% of us are running
"conventional blade" airfoils and
that a dirty prop may see 11% increase in efficiency. Wayne


Lot's of propellers don't use supercritical airfoils
and can benefit from
some turbulent airflow aiding in keeping the airflow
attached. I have heard
of studies that show an almost 11% increase in
efficiency with a
contaminated blade as opposed to a clean blade on
conventional propeller
airfoils. Newer props that do use a supercritical
airfoil can see a
reduction in efficiency with surface contamination.
Supercritical airfoils
will loose almost twice that amount of efficiency with
the same amount of
contamination. Fan blades in the CFM56 that powers a
lot of commercial
aircraft today has absolutely no tolerance to blade
contamination. Routine
maintenance includes compressor washing etc. If not
cleaned regularly the
engine I have been told can become a right fuel hog in
comparison to clean
engines.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Cole" <jcole@rangroup.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 11:50 AM
Subject: Re: Rebel #637 Mods - leading edge

Now Wayne is that because they are heavier or
because they are slippery?
Yuk!
I find that pledge on my wooden prop for the Chief
works great.
Jim
SR083Moose

Wayne G. O'Shea wrote:
Yes Rick, SERIOUSLY, I never clean it! :0)

And I am told and have read that a dirty propellor
will see a higher RPM
than a clean one and why turbulator tape is being
put on blades as well.
I'm
sure others read the article as well here in
Canada, of Wayne Winters,
where
they cleaned the prop on their 2 stroke training
plane and if barely got
off
the ground. They had to repitch it finer and then
found after it mashed a
few thousand grass hoppers it was red lining and
had to pitch it courser
again. Clean vs bug spattered it made something
like 400 RPM difference
at
full power.

Cheers,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Rick Harper" <rjwh@optusnet.com.au>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 6:25 AM
Subject: Re: Rebel #637 Mods - leading edge



as bug splattered ones
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Wayne G. O'Shea

Rebel #637 Mods - leading edge

Post by Wayne G. O'Shea » Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:58 am

You guys have way too much spare time...if I don't wash my prop do you think
I actually climb a ladder and wash the wings? :O)

Frost/ice is a whole different ball game. Ice especially is a combo of
changing the wing profile and addition of the weight it adds to the
airplane. Nice smooth ice isn't generally as much of an airflow problem as
it is a weight problem for most certified stuff operating at or near gross
weight. Bumpy rim ice is a disaster to both. A smooth coat of frost on the
other hand?? Anybody got a really good reason it hinders lift on the wing.

Cheers,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Walter Klatt" <Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 3:43 PM
Subject: RE: Rebel #637 Mods - leading edge

Hmmm, wonder if I should stop cleaning off the bugs from my wing
leading edge, too. So why do they say frost or icing on your
leading edge is dangerous??

Walter
-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Wayne G. O'Shea
Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 10:12 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Rebel #637 Mods - leading edge


Here is input from Brent Galye at MAM..who has many
years in the aviation
industry! Note that 99% of us are running
"conventional blade" airfoils and
that a dirty prop may see 11% increase in efficiency. Wayne


Lot's of propellers don't use supercritical airfoils
and can benefit from
some turbulent airflow aiding in keeping the airflow
attached. I have heard
of studies that show an almost 11% increase in
efficiency with a
contaminated blade as opposed to a clean blade on
conventional propeller
airfoils. Newer props that do use a supercritical
airfoil can see a
reduction in efficiency with surface contamination.
Supercritical airfoils
will loose almost twice that amount of efficiency with
the same amount of
contamination. Fan blades in the CFM56 that powers a
lot of commercial
aircraft today has absolutely no tolerance to blade
contamination. Routine
maintenance includes compressor washing etc. If not
cleaned regularly the
engine I have been told can become a right fuel hog in
comparison to clean
engines.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Cole" <jcole@rangroup.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 11:50 AM
Subject: Re: Rebel #637 Mods - leading edge

Now Wayne is that because they are heavier or
because they are slippery?
Yuk!
I find that pledge on my wooden prop for the Chief
works great.
Jim
SR083Moose

Wayne G. O'Shea wrote:
will see a higher RPM
put on blades as well.
I'm
Canada, of Wayne Winters,
where
plane and if barely got
off
found after it mashed a
had to pitch it courser
like 400 RPM difference
at
as bug splattered ones
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