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murphy-rebel@dcsol.com at 22:47:24 on 3 Dec 1999.
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All, you must remember that a lot of the older Rebels fuel tanks where also
done with RV1410 rivets and not the tank rivets, that some of us older
builders pushed the factory to supply. This is a source of a lot of the tank
leaks. The solid tank rivets can also be a small problem as you will usually
get 2 or 3 in a tank that crack and leak out through the mandrel holes, so
pressure check your tanks before painting your plane or installing the
wings. You can either drill these out and install new ones, or if you don't
want to leave drilled out rivets in the tank, do the dremel and proseal fix
I previously explained. And yes you should all thank Brian Cross for the
tank first, skin later method of building as it guarentees access to leaks
prior to closing the wing(even though I still do the top tank skin last)
I've just done it this way so many times and you can't teach an old dog new
tricks! To pressure test my tanks, I plug all the outlets with plugs, except
one. In this one I install a snifter valve(threaded fitting with air valve,
used for well pressure tanks). Over the fuel filler cap, I elastic band a
Condom. Simply pressurize the tank at snifter valve until Condom looks like
a water tower! It will stay this way for hours if no leaks. Even one rivet
mandrel leak and the condom will immediately start to deflate! If you tank
is tight, the condom, due to atmospheric pressure changes will be out one
day and then inflated inside the tank the next and will stay this way for
weeks.(provided no one has "pin holed" your condoms!) I also fill my tanks
with fuel, prior to placing the top tank skins. This guarentees no leaks in
the bottoms, sides etc., so if the top skin does spring a leak, you can
still fly 1/2 tanks+ untill you get a good day to fix the leak.
Wayne
-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Patterson <
bob.patterson@canrem.com>
To: Murphy Rebel Builders List <
murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Date: Friday, December 03, 1999 10:12 PM
Subject: RE: Rebel "652"-Wing tanks
Thanks for the success story, Tim !
Just one small clarification ....
The group here has found the best results with a slightly different
sequence of metal prep -
Clean with MEK, wipe, THEN scuff with ScotchBrite, and immediately
apply ProSeal. You can use a blast of air, but DO NOT WIPE after scuffing,
as you want clean, bare metal for best adhesion, and there might be a tiny
bit of oil on the cloth ...
Another thought - use a separate set of clecoes for areas to be
ProSealed - these are to be stored in MEK or Metal-Sol. Oil on the clecoes
has been the source of some leaks around rivets !
I think most of the stories of leaky tanks date back to before the
factory changed to Brian Cross' method of finishing the tanks, and before
we started using lengths of drill rod to align the tank top when dropping
it into place on top of the ProSeal. There have been many successful
completions lately !
Certainly, the addition of oval inspection holes, either on top, or
on the bottom, is not a bad idea, 'just in case' you might want access
in the future. The factory can give advice on how to install doublers
to make this a safe & effective solution. More than a few Rebel builders
have done this ...
.......bobp
-----------------------------orig.---------------------------------------
At 11:21 PM 12/1/99 -0800, you wrote:
OK,
All...I need to give my .02...since this thread is going on for a while...
I did all these mental gymnastics too over the wet wing. I went with the
wet wing, suffered through all the proseal mess, and even got an approved
mod from MAM to cut inspection holes in each of the three bays on the
underside of the wing tank.
Since these inspection hole covers were the last to be sealed, with the
wing
upside-down, I was able to paint the proseal around all of the top tank
skin
feying surfaces and rivets as well after the top tank skin was installed.
I pressure tested the first wing to 2 psi with a manometer, and even put
freon gas in it and tested all joints with a freon tester, and no leaks.
Now, when the weather changes from cold to hot or vice-versa, and I can
still pull the flush Usher non-vented caps off, I get a satisfying whoosh
of
air (the vent-pipe bosses are still sealed with plugs). No leaks. The
tanks are eventually to be vented with a cross-ships vent tube, and on the
RH wing there is is a vent from the outboard solid rib to a vent pipe that
exits behind the strut (a-la Cessna). I used SealPak polysulfide sealant
B
grade (spatula consistency) for the feying surfaces, and A grade
(paintable
consistency) for the topcoat of rivets, etc.
IMHO...do not mess around with the wing structure in order to put solid
tanks in. If you prepare the feying surfaces properly (and it is a LOT of
work...scuff, MEK, wipe, proseal) you will get a good finished product.
I kept having this dream of the wing collapsing and folding at the
root...and I have a six-year-old daughter...
Keep the structure sound.
Tim
#438R
-----
Original Message-----
From: Brian Cross [mailto:
rebelair@idirect.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 1999 7:13 PM
To: Murphy Rebel Builders List
Subject: RE: Rebel "652"-Wing tanks
Hi Bob
I also gave the fuel tanks a great deal of thought while building the
wing
& like yourself, looked at a number of different ways to build a fuel tank
into each wing. However, after much thought, I redesigned how the fuel
tanks were constructed, had it approved by MAM, and, finally went ahead
with
wet wings. The factory has adopted some but not all of the
recommendations.
I am not saying this to pat myself on the back, as there are alot of
talented builders out there from whom I have learned a great deal, but, to
reinforce the fact that in the final analysis, the wet wing is the best
option. When done properly, following the plans and doing some
improvements
which will not compromise the original strength built into the wing, the
wet
wings can be completed with no leaks and give trouble free performance
from
the beginning.
There is no way that I would accept adding a total of 40 lbs. into the
aircraft just because I was uncertain about the integrity of the wet wing
design. That is one of the reasons that the popular Glastar is so heavy.
I
have extra instruments etc. etc. which makes my airplane heavier than
others
but, I can take them out when the all glass cockpit arrives, (in my
dreams),
but you would be stuck with the manufactured fuel tanks stuffed into the
wing cavities. In my opinion, you could never take the wing apart and put
wet wing in later and not compromise on the original strength of the wing.
Nobody would ever do this. With an 0320 installed, you do not have the
option of adding 40 unnecessary pounds. Take the plunge, don't worry
about
it and go ahead with it. If you do the tanks as I did and I am sure as
more
people are doing now, you can test the tanks before closing the wing
completely.
The completed job is worth the effort. If you want to have the most fun
in your Rebel and blow away all the SuperCubs at your strip, keep the
airplane light & close to the plans. Not that I have an opinion!
Best Regards
Brian #328R
-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Johnson [mailto:
bjohnson@wsd.wabco-rail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 1999 12:46 PM
To: Murphy Rebel Builders List
Subject: Rebel "652"-Wing tanks
Hi again-After listening to various builders experiencing tank sealing
problems, I would like opinions on the following. I have a source that
could
manufacture welded .050 alum. tanks. They would fit in the (3) bay area
between the existing stringers (top & bottom) enabling use of the existing
wing skin arrangement. The only structural change would be the removal of
the center area of ribs # 2 & 3. The tank would support the remaining rib
sections via riveted angles. The tanks would weigh approx. 20 lb each
which
would only replace the fuel weight reduced due to the smaller tank
capacity.
Has anyone gone this route or is everyone satisfied with the "pro-seal"
tank
arrangement.-Comments appreciated soon as I am 70% along with the R. H.
wing. Note :I will be powered by an 0320-160 HP.
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<META content="MSHTML 5.00.2614.3401" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=910000407-02121999>OK,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=910000407-02121999></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=910000407-02121999>All...I need to give my .02...since this thread
is
going on for a while...</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=910000407-02121999></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=910000407-02121999>I
did
all these mental gymnastics too over the wet wing. I went with the
wet
wing, suffered through all the proseal mess, and even got an approved mod
from
MAM to cut inspection holes in each of the three bays on the underside of
the
wing tank.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=910000407-02121999></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=910000407-02121999>Since
these inspection hole covers were the last to be sealed, with the wing
upside-down, I was able to paint the proseal around all of the top tank
skin
feying surfaces and rivets as well after the top tank skin was
installed.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=910000407-02121999></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=910000407-02121999>I
pressure tested the first wing to 2 psi with a manometer, and even put
freon gas
in it and tested all joints with a freon tester, and no
leaks.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=910000407-02121999></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=910000407-02121999>Now,
when the weather changes from cold to hot or vice-versa, and I can still
pull
the flush Usher non-vented caps off, I get a satisfying whoosh of air
(the
vent-pipe bosses are still sealed with plugs). No leaks. The
tanks
are eventually to be vented with a cross-ships vent tube, and on the RH
wing
there is is a vent from the outboard solid rib to a vent pipe that exits
behind
the strut (a-la Cessna). I used SealPak polysulfide sealant B grade
(spatula consistency) for the feying surfaces, and A grade (paintable
consistency) for the topcoat of rivets, etc.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=910000407-02121999></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=910000407-02121999>IMHO...do not mess around with the wing structure
in
order to put solid tanks in. If you prepare the feying surfaces
properly
(and it is a LOT of work...scuff, MEK, wipe, proseal) you will get a good
finished product.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=910000407-02121999>I kept having this dream of the wing
collapsing
and folding at the root...and I have a six-year-old
daughter...</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=910000407-02121999></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=910000407-02121999>Keep
the structure sound.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=910000407-02121999></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=910000407-02121999>Tim</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=910000407-02121999>#438R </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=910000407-02121999> </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT
size=2>-----<SPAN class=910000407-02121999><FONT color=#0000ff
face=Arial> </FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT
size=2><SPAN class=910000407-02121999> </SPAN>Original
Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Brian Cross
[mailto:
rebelair@idirect.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, December 01,
1999
7:13 PM<BR><B>To:</B> Murphy Rebel Builders List<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE:
Rebel
"652"-Wing tanks<BR><BR></DIV></FONT></FONT>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=770565202-02121999>Hi
Bob</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=770565202-02121999></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=770565202-02121999>I
also gave the fuel tanks a great deal of thought while building the wing
&
like yourself, looked at a number of different ways to build a fuel tank
into
each wing. However, after much thought, I redesigned how the
fuel
tanks were constructed, had it approved by MAM, and, finally went ahead
with
wet wings. The factory has adopted some but not all of the
recommendations. I am not saying this to pat myself on the back,
as
there are alot of talented builders out there from whom I have learned a
great
deal, but, to reinforce the fact that in the final analysis, the wet
wing is
the best option. When done properly, following the plans and doing
some
improvements which will not compromise the original strength built into
the
wing, the wet wings can be completed with no leaks and give trouble free
performance from the beginning. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=770565202-02121999></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=770565202-02121999>There is no way that I would accept adding a
total of
40 lbs. into the aircraft just because I was uncertain about the
integrity of
the wet wing design. That is one of the reasons that the popular
Glastar
is so heavy. I have extra instruments etc. etc. which makes my
airplane
heavier than others but, I can take them out when the all glass cockpit
arrives, (in my dreams), but you would be stuck with the manufactured
fuel
tanks stuffed into the wing cavities. In my opinion, you could
never
take the wing apart and put wet wing in later and not compromise on the
original strength of the wing. Nobody would ever do this.
With an
0320 installed, you do not have the option of adding 40 unnecessary
pounds. Take the plunge, don't worry about it and go ahead with
it. If you do the tanks as I did and I am sure as more people are
doing
now, you can test the tanks before closing the wing completely.
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=770565202-02121999></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=770565202-02121999>The
completed job is worth the effort. If you want to have the most
fun in
your Rebel and blow away all the SuperCubs at your strip, keep the
airplane
light & close to the plans. Not that I have an
opinion!</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=770565202-02121999></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=770565202-02121999>Best
Regards</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=770565202-02121999></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=770565202-02121999>Brian #328R</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV align=left class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Bob Johnson
[mailto:
bjohnson@wsd.wabco-rail.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, November
30,
1999 12:46 PM<BR><B>To:</B> Murphy Rebel Builders
List<BR><B>Subject:</B>
Rebel "652"-Wing tanks<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=2>Hi again-After listening to various
builders
experiencing tank sealing problems, I would like opinions on the
following.
I have a source that could manufacture welded .050 alum. tanks. They
would
fit in the (3) bay area between the existing stringers (top &
bottom)
enabling use of the existing wing skin arrangement. The only
structural
change would be the removal of the center area of ribs # 2 & 3.
The
tank
would support the remaining rib sections via riveted angles. The tanks
would
weigh approx. 20 lb each which would only replace the fuel weight
reduced
due to the smaller tank capacity. Has anyone gone this route or is
everyone
satisfied with the "pro-seal" tank arrangement.-Comments appreciated
soon as
I am 70% along with the R. H. wing. Note :I will be powered by an
0320-160
HP.</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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