Delivery failures

[Wayne G. O'Shea]

Anyone else getting these when sending to the list??
............................................................
This message was addressed to a user that does not exist at this address.
Please verify the name and domain in the original message that follows.

The message was addressed to: sfvlfxuoqs@dcsol.com

.....................................
Hi. This is the qmail-send program at mail01.vargonen.net.
I'm afraid I wasn't able to deliver your message to the following addresses.
This is a permanent error; I've given up. Sorry it didn't work out.

<trent@sistemmaket.com>:
Sorry, no mailbox here by that name. vpopmail (#5.1.1)






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[Ken]

Yes I got at least 3 today. Looks like they come sporadically whenever I
post a msg.
I try not to take it personally ;)
Ken

Wayne G. O'Shea wrote:

Anyone else getting these when sending to the list??
............................................................
This message was addressed to a user that does not exist at this address.
Please verify the name and domain in the original message that follows.

The message was addressed to: sfvlfxuoqs@dcsol.com

.....................................
Hi. This is the qmail-send program at mail01.vargonen.net.
I'm afraid I wasn't able to deliver your message to the following addresses.
This is a permanent error; I've given up. Sorry it didn't work out.

<trent@sistemmaket.com>:
Sorry, no mailbox here by that name. vpopmail (#5.1.1)

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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

I've got them before and I know Walter was getting them as well. The one
address looks like someone went on and made up a bogus sfvlfxuoqs address.
No big deal..compared to the 200 spams a day!

I'm more concerned right now for friends we have in Grenada.....and thank
god I didn't buy the property down there I've been looking at for three
years! 90% of the island is gone as are 70%+ of the boats that where moored
in the bays/marinas. Looting with weapons, all 400 prison inmates on the
loose and it isn't looking pretty for the near future. All schools and
churches destroyed and about the only government building left standing,
thank god, is the hospital!

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken" <klehman@albedo.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2004 8:55 PM
Subject: Re: Delivery failures

Yes I got at least 3 today. Looks like they come sporadically whenever I
post a msg.
I try not to take it personally ;)
Ken

Wayne G. O'Shea wrote:

Anyone else getting these when sending to the list??
............................................................
This message was addressed to a user that does not exist at this address.
Please verify the name and domain in the original message that follows.

The message was addressed to: sfvlfxuoqs@dcsol.com

.....................................
Hi. This is the qmail-send program at mail01.vargonen.net.
I'm afraid I wasn't able to deliver your message to the following

addresses.

This is a permanent error; I've given up. Sorry it didn't work out.

<trent@sistemmaket.com>:
Sorry, no mailbox here by that name. vpopmail (#5.1.1)

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[Jerry Purdom]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jerry Purdom" <jerrygoneflying@shaw.ca>
To: <rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2004 8:59 PM
Subject: Fw: Delivery failures

Yup having the same problem,hope this goes through ,it seems like some
message are let through

THANKS
jerry
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jerry Purdom" <jerrygoneflying@shaw.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2004 6:15 PM
Subject: Re: Delivery failures

Hi Wayne

Yup, almost the same message????
----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2004 2:21 PM
Subject: Delivery failures

Anyone else getting these when sending to the list??
............................................................
This message was addressed to a user that does not exist at this

address.

Please verify the name and domain in the original message that

follows.

The message was addressed to: sfvlfxuoqs@dcsol.com

.....................................
Hi. This is the qmail-send program at mail01.vargonen.net.
I'm afraid I wasn't able to deliver your message to the following

addresses.

This is a permanent error; I've given up. Sorry it didn't work out.

<trent@sistemmaket.com>:
Sorry, no mailbox here by that name. vpopmail (#5.1.1)






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[Mike Davis]

Not sure what caused that one, but I have been having a lot of problems with
Shaw cable... and since there are 5 list members from shaw.ca, it crops up a
lot. I put quite a bit of time into tracking down the problem with Shaw,
and after contacting them they said, "yeah, that sounds about right... can't
you just configure your system to accept any and all mail from shaw.ca?"
Well yes, but that kind of defeats the point in filtering spam!

What I've done for now is configure the filter to accept all mail addressed
to the list... then the list server will have to bounce the bogus addresses.
This may sound like a real good solution, but the list gets several thousand
e-mails a day from bogus addresses, and having the filter in place means my
server never has to process those messages... by turning that filter off,
every message will be imported into the e-mail database, then when the list
server finds that the address is not valid, it will generate a bounce
message that must then be sent out. Most likely the bounce message will be
addressed to an invalid address meaning that I'll get a bounce message back
in return. You can see how this can put a much bigger load in the system.
But until shaw.ca finds a better way to deal with their spam problems then
just turning their inbound mail servers off, I'm not sure what else to do.

By the way, that's what's happening Jerry when your mail gets bounced with a
550 error code... that means my mail server was not able to connect to
shaw.ca inbound servers and verify that your address is valid. I hope
you're sending copies of all the error messages to shaw too, because it's
not my problem to fix.

Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jerry Purdom" <jerrygoneflying@shaw.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Cc: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, September 10, 2004 6:37 AM
Subject: Fw: Delivery failures

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jerry Purdom" <jerrygoneflying@shaw.ca>
To: <rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2004 8:59 PM
Subject: Fw: Delivery failures

Yup having the same problem,hope this goes through ,it seems like some
message are let through

THANKS
jerry
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jerry Purdom" <jerrygoneflying@shaw.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2004 6:15 PM
Subject: Re: Delivery failures

Hi Wayne

Yup, almost the same message????
----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2004 2:21 PM
Subject: Delivery failures

address.

follows.

addresses.

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[Jerry Purdom]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Davis" <mike.davis@dcsol.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, September 10, 2004 3:03 PM
Subject: Re: Delivery failures

Not sure what caused that one, but I have been having a lot of problems

with

Shaw cable... and since there are 5 list members from shaw.ca, it crops up

a

lot. I put quite a bit of time into tracking down the problem with Shaw,
and after contacting them they said, "yeah, that sounds about right...

can't

you just configure your system to accept any and all mail from shaw.ca?"
Well yes, but that kind of defeats the point in filtering spam!

What I've done for now is configure the filter to accept all mail

addressed

to the list... then the list server will have to bounce the bogus

addresses.

This may sound like a real good solution, but the list gets several

thousand

e-mails a day from bogus addresses, and having the filter in place means

my

server never has to process those messages... by turning that filter off,
every message will be imported into the e-mail database, then when the

list

server finds that the address is not valid, it will generate a bounce
message that must then be sent out. Most likely the bounce message will

be

addressed to an invalid address meaning that I'll get a bounce message

back

in return. You can see how this can put a much bigger load in the system.
But until shaw.ca finds a better way to deal with their spam problems then
just turning their inbound mail servers off, I'm not sure what else to do.

By the way, that's what's happening Jerry when your mail gets bounced with

a

550 error code... that means my mail server was not able to connect to
shaw.ca inbound servers and verify that your address is valid. I hope
you're sending copies of all the error messages to shaw too, because it's
not my problem to fix.

Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jerry Purdom" <jerrygoneflying@shaw.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Cc: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, September 10, 2004 6:37 AM
Subject: Fw: Delivery failures

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jerry Purdom" <jerrygoneflying@shaw.ca>
To: <rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2004 8:59 PM
Subject: Fw: Delivery failures

Yup having the same problem,hope this goes through ,it seems like some
message are let through

THANKS
jerry
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jerry Purdom" <jerrygoneflying@shaw.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2004 6:15 PM
Subject: Re: Delivery failures

address.

follows.

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[Jerry Purdom]

Hi Mike just talk to shaw,the usual they passed the buck back to you.Hope we
can do something??

THANKS
jerry
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Davis" <mike.davis@dcsol.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, September 10, 2004 3:03 PM
Subject: Re: Delivery failures

Not sure what caused that one, but I have been having a lot of problems

with

Shaw cable... and since there are 5 list members from shaw.ca, it crops up

a

lot. I put quite a bit of time into tracking down the problem with Shaw,
and after contacting them they said, "yeah, that sounds about right...

can't

you just configure your system to accept any and all mail from shaw.ca?"
Well yes, but that kind of defeats the point in filtering spam!

What I've done for now is configure the filter to accept all mail

addressed

to the list... then the list server will have to bounce the bogus

addresses.

This may sound like a real good solution, but the list gets several

thousand

e-mails a day from bogus addresses, and having the filter in place means

my

server never has to process those messages... by turning that filter off,
every message will be imported into the e-mail database, then when the

list

server finds that the address is not valid, it will generate a bounce
message that must then be sent out. Most likely the bounce message will

be

addressed to an invalid address meaning that I'll get a bounce message

back

in return. You can see how this can put a much bigger load in the system.
But until shaw.ca finds a better way to deal with their spam problems then
just turning their inbound mail servers off, I'm not sure what else to do.

By the way, that's what's happening Jerry when your mail gets bounced with

a

550 error code... that means my mail server was not able to connect to
shaw.ca inbound servers and verify that your address is valid. I hope
you're sending copies of all the error messages to shaw too, because it's
not my problem to fix.

Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jerry Purdom" <jerrygoneflying@shaw.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Cc: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, September 10, 2004 6:37 AM
Subject: Fw: Delivery failures

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jerry Purdom" <jerrygoneflying@shaw.ca>
To: <rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2004 8:59 PM
Subject: Fw: Delivery failures

Yup having the same problem,hope this goes through ,it seems like some
message are let through

THANKS
jerry
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jerry Purdom" <jerrygoneflying@shaw.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2004 6:15 PM
Subject: Re: Delivery failures

address.

follows.

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[Daryl C. W. O'Shea]

On Fri, 10 Sep 2004, Mike Davis wrote:

Not sure what caused that one, but I have been having a lot of problems with
Shaw cable... and since there are 5 list members from shaw.ca, it crops up a
lot. I put quite a bit of time into tracking down the problem with Shaw,
and after contacting them they said, "yeah, that sounds about right... can't
you just configure your system to accept any and all mail from shaw.ca?"
Well yes, but that kind of defeats the point in filtering spam!

Whitelisting all of the list member addresses on your border relay would
be just as effective as letting them through to the list and then bouncing
them. Unless you're getting a lot of spam from list member addresses, but
that's another issue.

What I've done for now is configure the filter to accept all mail addressed
to the list... then the list server will have to bounce the bogus addresses.
This may sound like a real good solution, but the list gets several thousand
e-mails a day from bogus addresses, and having the filter in place means my
server never has to process those messages... by turning that filter off,
every message will be imported into the e-mail database, then when the list
server finds that the address is not valid, it will generate a bounce
message that must then be sent out. Most likely the bounce message will be
addressed to an invalid address meaning that I'll get a bounce message back
in return. You can see how this can put a much bigger load in the system.

Just don't bounce invalid (non list member) email to the list. In the
event that someone legitimate tries to email the list but hasn't signed up
they're not going to be any worse off than if the message bounced (unless
you're including contact info in your bounce messages, in which case
you're going to get even more spam). Hopefully a legit person (who
hasn't subscribed) will have the common sense to email you directly or go
to your website after a few attempts at sending mail to the list.

But until shaw.ca finds a better way to deal with their spam problems then
just turning their inbound mail servers off, I'm not sure what else to do.

By the way, that's what's happening Jerry when your mail gets bounced with a
550 error code... that means my mail server was not able to connect to
shaw.ca inbound servers and verify that your address is valid. I hope
you're sending copies of all the error messages to shaw too, because it's
not my problem to fix.

You're asking Shaw to open their servers, and thus their users, to be more
vulnerable to spam (spam harvesters connect to SMTP servers and do brute
force attacks to find out a systems legitimate addressess) so that you
get less spam. You can see why they don't want to do it. What you're
asking them to do isn't even required by any RFCs.


Another way to prevent your gateway server from accepting spam is to do
xRBL and SBL lookups on each connection. Depending on your Windows mail
server, you may or may not be able to do that though. MDaemon
(www.altn.com) for Windows will do that.


Daryl




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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

What the @#&% was that in English my son!??!

----- Original Message -----
From: "Daryl C. W. O'Shea" <dos@dostech.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2004 9:42 PM
Subject: Re: Delivery failures

On Fri, 10 Sep 2004, Mike Davis wrote:

Not sure what caused that one, but I have been having a lot of problems

with

Shaw cable... and since there are 5 list members from shaw.ca, it crops

up a

lot. I put quite a bit of time into tracking down the problem with

Shaw,

and after contacting them they said, "yeah, that sounds about right...

can't

you just configure your system to accept any and all mail from shaw.ca?"
Well yes, but that kind of defeats the point in filtering spam!

Whitelisting all of the list member addresses on your border relay would
be just as effective as letting them through to the list and then bouncing
them. Unless you're getting a lot of spam from list member addresses, but
that's another issue.

What I've done for now is configure the filter to accept all mail

addressed

to the list... then the list server will have to bounce the bogus

addresses.

This may sound like a real good solution, but the list gets several

thousand

e-mails a day from bogus addresses, and having the filter in place means

my

server never has to process those messages... by turning that filter

off,

every message will be imported into the e-mail database, then when the

list

server finds that the address is not valid, it will generate a bounce
message that must then be sent out. Most likely the bounce message will

be

addressed to an invalid address meaning that I'll get a bounce message

back

in return. You can see how this can put a much bigger load in the

system.

Just don't bounce invalid (non list member) email to the list. In the
event that someone legitimate tries to email the list but hasn't signed up
they're not going to be any worse off than if the message bounced (unless
you're including contact info in your bounce messages, in which case
you're going to get even more spam). Hopefully a legit person (who
hasn't subscribed) will have the common sense to email you directly or go
to your website after a few attempts at sending mail to the list.

But until shaw.ca finds a better way to deal with their spam problems

then

just turning their inbound mail servers off, I'm not sure what else to

do.

By the way, that's what's happening Jerry when your mail gets bounced

with a

550 error code... that means my mail server was not able to connect to
shaw.ca inbound servers and verify that your address is valid. I hope
you're sending copies of all the error messages to shaw too, because

it's

not my problem to fix.

You're asking Shaw to open their servers, and thus their users, to be more
vulnerable to spam (spam harvesters connect to SMTP servers and do brute
force attacks to find out a systems legitimate addressess) so that you
get less spam. You can see why they don't want to do it. What you're
asking them to do isn't even required by any RFCs.


Another way to prevent your gateway server from accepting spam is to do
xRBL and SBL lookups on each connection. Depending on your Windows mail
server, you may or may not be able to do that though. MDaemon
(www.altn.com) for Windows will do that.


Daryl




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[Daryl C. W. O'Shea]

On Sun, 12 Sep 2004, Wayne G. O'Shea wrote:

What the @#&% was that in English my son!??!

It's not Shaw's fault.




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[Mike Davis]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Daryl C. W. O'Shea" <dos@dostech.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2004 5:42 PM
Subject: Re: Delivery failures

On Fri, 10 Sep 2004, Mike Davis wrote:

Not sure what caused that one, but I have been having a lot of problems
with
Shaw cable... and since there are 5 list members from shaw.ca, it crops
up a
lot. I put quite a bit of time into tracking down the problem with Shaw,
and after contacting them they said, "yeah, that sounds about right...
can't
you just configure your system to accept any and all mail from shaw.ca?"
Well yes, but that kind of defeats the point in filtering spam!

Whitelisting all of the list member addresses on your border relay would
be just as effective as letting them through to the list and then bouncing
them. Unless you're getting a lot of spam from list member addresses, but
that's another issue.

The problem with listing each member individually is that there are 200 plus
members and the membership is very dynamic, adds and deletes on a daily
basis... this would be an absolute nightmare to keep on top of. What I've
done is white list messages addressed to the list, regardless of who sent
them... the list server then has the burdon of verifying whether they are a
valid member and able to post.

What I've done for now is configure the filter to accept all mail
addressed
to the list... then the list server will have to bounce the bogus
addresses.
This may sound like a real good solution, but the list gets several
thousand
e-mails a day from bogus addresses, and having the filter in place means
my
server never has to process those messages... by turning that filter off,
every message will be imported into the e-mail database, then when the
list
server finds that the address is not valid, it will generate a bounce
message that must then be sent out. Most likely the bounce message will
be
addressed to an invalid address meaning that I'll get a bounce message
back
in return. You can see how this can put a much bigger load in the
system.

Just don't bounce invalid (non list member) email to the list. In the
event that someone legitimate tries to email the list but hasn't signed up
they're not going to be any worse off than if the message bounced (unless
you're including contact info in your bounce messages, in which case
you're going to get even more spam). Hopefully a legit person (who
hasn't subscribed) will have the common sense to email you directly or go
to your website after a few attempts at sending mail to the list.

Invalid mail will be returned to the sending address... it will not get
bounced to the list.

But until shaw.ca finds a better way to deal with their spam problems
then
just turning their inbound mail servers off, I'm not sure what else to
do.

By the way, that's what's happening Jerry when your mail gets bounced
with a
550 error code... that means my mail server was not able to connect to
shaw.ca inbound servers and verify that your address is valid. I hope
you're sending copies of all the error messages to shaw too, because it's
not my problem to fix.

You're asking Shaw to open their servers, and thus their users, to be more
vulnerable to spam (spam harvesters connect to SMTP servers and do brute
force attacks to find out a systems legitimate addressess) so that you
get less spam. You can see why they don't want to do it. What you're
asking them to do isn't even required by any RFCs.

You're mis-understanding what it is that Shaw is doing... when they are
under attach, they simply take their servers down... this means that the
published MX records for shaw.ca are invalid during this period. When my
system attempts to perform it's sender authentication it can't connect to
shaw.ca servers, and refuses to accept mail from them since it can't verify
that the sending address is valid. I don't expect Shaw to "open" up their
servers, but when their published inbound mail servers don't respond to
connection request, how can you verify addresses from shaw.ca. Shaw told me
that they would white list my mail server, but I still got a number of
failed connection request after the fact. Over the course of 10 days I
tried to connect manually to both of their inbound mail servers and 9 out of
10 times, one of those servers failed. There are simply more problems here
then Shaw simply trying to protect themselves.

Another way to prevent your gateway server from accepting spam is to do
xRBL and SBL lookups on each connection. Depending on your Windows mail
server, you may or may not be able to do that though. MDaemon
(www.altn.com) for Windows will do that.

Already do this...

Mike

Daryl




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[Daryl C. W. O'Shea]

On Mon, 13 Sep 2004, Mike Davis wrote:

The problem with listing each member individually is that there are 200 plus
members and the membership is very dynamic, adds and deletes on a daily
basis... this would be an absolute nightmare to keep on top of. What I've
done is white list messages addressed to the list, regardless of who sent
them... the list server then has the burdon of verifying whether they are a
valid member and able to post.

Just a suggestion to stop the message sooner since you expressed concern
about the extra processing overhead letting them through. A _small_ Perl
script run as a cron job (err, Task Scheduler task) could automate this
for you. Probably not worth the effort though since you probably don't
have any major processor utilization problems.

Just don't bounce invalid (non list member) email to the list. In the
event that someone legitimate tries to email the list but hasn't signed up
they're not going to be any worse off than if the message bounced (unless
you're including contact info in your bounce messages, in which case
you're going to get even more spam). Hopefully a legit person (who
hasn't subscribed) will have the common sense to email you directly or go
to your website after a few attempts at sending mail to the list.

Invalid mail will be returned to the sending address... it will not get
bounced to the list.

I didn't mean that you were sending bounce messages to all the list
recipients. I meant that any invalid mail addressed to the list could be
simply dropped on the floor. Don't even bounce it back to the _apparent_
sender listed in the From: header. The vast majority of spam has forged
From: headers anyway.

The odd legit person who tries to send mail to the list without
subscribing (who would normal get a bounce message, but the bounce has
been dropped) should clue in that they're not doing something correct.

This would solve your returned bounce message problem.

But until shaw.ca finds a better way to deal with their spam problems
then
just turning their inbound mail servers off, I'm not sure what else to
do.

I thought you were being sarcastic. Although I don't doubt it (or you), I
find it hard to believe that their customers aren't screaming at them for
stopping all mail, even legit mail, from being received.

Simply amazing.

You're asking Shaw to open their servers, and thus their users, to be more
vulnerable to spam (spam harvesters connect to SMTP servers and do brute
force attacks to find out a systems legitimate addressess) so that you
get less spam. You can see why they don't want to do it. What you're
asking them to do isn't even required by any RFCs.

You're mis-understanding what it is that Shaw is doing... when they are
under attach, they simply take their servers down... this means that the
published MX records for shaw.ca are invalid during this period.

Got it. Still sounds crazy though. They're not just blocking spam and
you from verifying accounts, they're blocking everything.

Does anybody with a Shaw account ever notice significant delays in
receiving their email?

When my
system attempts to perform it's sender authentication it can't connect to
shaw.ca servers, and refuses to accept mail from them since it can't verify
that the sending address is valid. I don't expect Shaw to "open" up their
servers, but when their published inbound mail servers don't respond to
connection request, how can you verify addresses from shaw.ca.

You can't, and you can't expect to even if their inbound MXs are up.
You can verify they'll accept mail for the account, but you can't
verify the account actually exists. Many domains will accept all mail
and drop mail to non-existent accounts on the floor to prevent address
harvesting. Of course if they do this it'll satisfy your check to see if
they'll accept mail for that account.

I don't agree with this method (there are far better ways to prevent
harvesting), but it's a common method nonetheless.

A similar situation is a boundary MX server with no directory service.
It'll accept all mail too.

Worst of all, and luckily not so commmon, but certainly existent
(especially with users of vanity domains), are domains using DomainPOP.
I'm not sure what the issue is with your software, but it seems to try and
query the sending server, and not the proper MX (why I don't know, but it
did it too me when I was using DomainPOP this summer -- yes, my MXs are
correct).


In any case, it's a fairly flawed method which doesn't give you reliable
info. At best you get the account doesn't exist or that the account might
exist. It also puts you in great risk of getting tarpitted or blacklisted
(see below).

Shaw told me
that they would white list my mail server, but I still got a number of
failed connection request after the fact. Over the course of 10 days I
tried to connect manually to both of their inbound mail servers and 9 out of
10 times, one of those servers failed. There are simply more problems here
then Shaw simply trying to protect themselves.

It _really_ sounds like you (or your server) were checking to see if too
many (possibly as few as one, two, or three) non-existent shaw.ca accounts
existed and were being tarpitted by their inbound MXs.

That makes much more sense then them shutting down their mail service and
matches the symptoms exactly.

Have you tried connecting to their MX servers from a _different network_
at the same time you can't connect via your own?

As for them whitelisting you... I doubt they actually did it. Especially
if you only talked to first or second tier support at Shaw. Those folks
don't even get to touch server configs. Maybe you talked to someone
higher though?

Another way to prevent your gateway server from accepting spam is to do
xRBL and SBL lookups on each connection. Depending on your Windows mail
server, you may or may not be able to do that though. MDaemon
(www.altn.com) for Windows will do that.

Already do this...

You probably already do reverse, then forward lookups, but it's worth
mentioning just incase. It's actually not required by any RFCs either,
but anyone who doesn't do it is an idiot (and they're going to get their
mail rejected from most major providers).


Anyway, tell me to shut up if you want. :) I probably should anyway
before I bore everyone even more.


Daryl




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[rebel]

I tried to post this message yesterday with my regular email, but it still
hasn't gone through. I don't get the bounce message anymore, though, and it
seems that they are just blocked So I am resending the message using the
DCSOL common ID and my newsreader.

Walter

-----Original Message-----

From: Walter Klatt [mailto:Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca]

Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 5:34 PM

To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com

Subject: RE: Delivery failures



I am one of the lucky Shaw users. Daryl, you asked if any Shaw account
holders sometimes experience significant delays. That's hard to say with
regular emails, as I have not noticed that, but can't say for certain that
it never happens. However, because of my bounced messages problem with the
list, I have started using the Newsreader to look at and post messages, and
I definitely noticed that the messages sometimes appear on the Newsreader
faster (could be many hours) than I receive them in my regular email
account. Not sure if that is because of Shaw or because of some difficulty
between Mike's server and Shaw receiving them. This is the first message I
am posting the old email method, so will see if and when it gets through to
the list.

Is it just Shaw users that have the problem? I got the impression from
Wayne's message on the subject that it might be other users as well.

Walter

-----Original Message-----

From: mike.davis@dcsol.com

[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of

Daryl C. W. O'Shea

Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 4:31 PM

To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com

Subject: Re: Delivery failures

On Mon, 13 Sep 2004, Mike Davis wrote:

The problem with listing each member individually is

that there are 200 plus

members and the membership is very dynamic, adds and

deletes on a daily

basis... this would be an absolute nightmare to keep

on top of. What I've

done is white list messages addressed to the list,

regardless of who sent

them... the list server then has the burdon of

verifying whether they are a

valid member and able to post.

Just a suggestion to stop the message sooner since you

expressed concern

about the extra processing overhead letting them

through. A _small_ Perl

script run as a cron job (err, Task Scheduler task)

could automate this

for you. Probably not worth the effort though since

you probably don't

have any major processor utilization problems.

Just don't bounce invalid (non list member) email

to the list. In the

event that someone legitimate tries to email the

list but hasn't signed up

they're not going to be any worse off than if the

message bounced (unless

you're including contact info in your bounce

messages, in which case

you're going to get even more spam). Hopefully a

legit person (who

hasn't subscribed) will have the common sense to

email you directly or go

to your website after a few attempts at sending

mail to the list.

Invalid mail will be returned to the sending

address... it will not get

bounced to the list.

I didn't mean that you were sending bounce messages to

all the list

recipients. I meant that any invalid mail addressed

to the list could be

simply dropped on the floor. Don't even bounce it

back to the _apparent_

sender listed in the From: header. The vast majority

of spam has forged

From: headers anyway.

The odd legit person who tries to send mail to the

list without

subscribing (who would normal get a bounce message,

but the bounce has

been dropped) should clue in that they're not doing

something correct.

This would solve your returned bounce message problem.

their spam problems

not sure what else to

I thought you were being sarcastic. Although I don't

doubt it (or you), I

find it hard to believe that their customers aren't

screaming at them for

stopping all mail, even legit mail, from being received.

Simply amazing.

You're asking Shaw to open their servers, and thus

their users, to be more

vulnerable to spam (spam harvesters connect to SMTP

servers and do brute

force attacks to find out a systems legitimate

addressess) so that you

get less spam. You can see why they don't want to

do it. What you're

asking them to do isn't even required by any RFCs.

You're mis-understanding what it is that Shaw is

doing... when they are

under attach, they simply take their servers down...

this means that the

published MX records for shaw.ca are invalid during

this period.

Got it. Still sounds crazy though. They're not just

blocking spam and

you from verifying accounts, they're blocking everything.

Does anybody with a Shaw account ever notice

significant delays in

receiving their email?

When my

system attempts to perform it's sender

authentication it can't connect to

shaw.ca servers, and refuses to accept mail from

them since it can't verify

that the sending address is valid. I don't expect

Shaw to "open" up their

servers, but when their published inbound mail

servers don't respond to

connection request, how can you verify addresses

from shaw.ca.

You can't, and you can't expect to even if their

inbound MXs are up.

You can verify they'll accept mail for the account,

but you can't

verify the account actually exists. Many domains will

accept all mail

and drop mail to non-existent accounts on the floor to

prevent address

harvesting. Of course if they do this it'll satisfy

your check to see if

they'll accept mail for that account.

I don't agree with this method (there are far better

ways to prevent

harvesting), but it's a common method nonetheless.

A similar situation is a boundary MX server with no

directory service.

It'll accept all mail too.

Worst of all, and luckily not so commmon, but

certainly existent

(especially with users of vanity domains), are domains

using DomainPOP.

I'm not sure what the issue is with your software, but

it seems to try and

query the sending server, and not the proper MX (why I

don't know, but it

did it too me when I was using DomainPOP this summer

-- yes, my MXs are

correct).

In any case, it's a fairly flawed method which doesn't

give you reliable

info. At best you get the account doesn't exist or

that the account might

exist. It also puts you in great risk of getting

tarpitted or blacklisted

(see below).

Shaw told me

that they would white list my mail server, but I

still got a number of

failed connection request after the fact. Over the

course of 10 days I

tried to connect manually to both of their inbound

mail servers and 9 out of

10 times, one of those servers failed. There are

simply more problems here

then Shaw simply trying to protect themselves.

It _really_ sounds like you (or your server) were

checking to see if too

many (possibly as few as one, two, or three)

non-existent shaw.ca accounts

existed and were being tarpitted by their inbound MXs.

That makes much more sense then them shutting down

their mail service and

matches the symptoms exactly.

Have you tried connecting to their MX servers from a

_different network_

at the same time you can't connect via your own?

As for them whitelisting you... I doubt they actually

did it. Especially

if you only talked to first or second tier support at

Shaw. Those folks

don't even get to touch server configs. Maybe you

talked to someone

higher though?

Another way to prevent your gateway server from

accepting spam is to do

xRBL and SBL lookups on each connection. Depending

on your Windows mail

server, you may or may not be able to do that

though. MDaemon

(www.altn.com) for Windows will do that.

Already do this...

You probably already do reverse, then forward lookups,

but it's worth

mentioning just incase. It's actually not required by

any RFCs either,

but anyone who doesn't do it is an idiot (and they're

going to get their

mail rejected from most major providers).

Anyway, tell me to shut up if you want. :) I probably

should anyway

before I bore everyone even more.

Daryl

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[Daryl C. W. O'Shea]

-----Original Message-----
From: Walter Klatt [mailto:Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca]
Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 5:34 PM

I am one of the lucky Shaw users. Daryl, you asked if any Shaw account
holders sometimes experience significant delays. That's hard to say with
regular emails, as I have not noticed that, but can't say for certain that
it never happens.

If you ever suspect one is seriously delayed, by more than 10 to 15
minutes, you can look at the received headers of the message when you
finally get it. Each "Received:" block will have a date/time that it
passed through that server. If you read from the bottom up you'll be able
to see if there's a big gap in time between servers.

However, because of my bounced messages problem with the
list, I have started using the Newsreader to look at and post messages, and
I definitely noticed that the messages sometimes appear on the Newsreader
faster (could be many hours) than I receive them in my regular email
account. Not sure if that is because of Shaw or because of some difficulty
between Mike's server and Shaw receiving them. This is the first message I
am posting the old email method, so will see if and when it gets through to
the list.

Messages from Mike's server being delayed won't tell you anything useful
to identify the problem.

Is it just Shaw users that have the problem? I got the impression from
Wayne's message on the subject that it might be other users as well.

Mike corrected, well modified, the problem that Dad reported earlier. He
(and others) were getting (unwanted) SMTP error reports.

Mike thinks or was told that it's a problem all Shaw users are having when
receiving email from _anybody_, not just the this list. I still can't
fathom half of the highspeed users in western Canada not raising hell over
such an issue though.


When I get a bit of time to play I'll see if I can get myself tarpitted by
Shaw's MX servers.


Daryl




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[rebel]

No, I hate to say it, but I do not have any email problems with anyone else,
just this list. Since there are only about 5 Shaw users, Mike, why not just
whitelist us? I promise not to send any spam or viruses.;>))

At the moment, I think I am actually blacklisted, because not only do my
messages not go through, but I don't get any bounce message either. So for
now am using the newsreader to post to the list, which by the way is still
Shaw, but not my email account.

Walter
Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca

"Daryl C. W. O'Shea" <dos@dostech.ca> wrote in message
news:Pine.WNT.4.60.0409142149340.1908@latitude.dostech.net...

-----Original Message-----
From: Walter Klatt [mailto:Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca]
Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 5:34 PM

I am one of the lucky Shaw users. Daryl, you asked if any Shaw account
holders sometimes experience significant delays. That's hard to say with
regular emails, as I have not noticed that, but can't say for certain

that

it never happens.

If you ever suspect one is seriously delayed, by more than 10 to 15
minutes, you can look at the received headers of the message when you
finally get it. Each "Received:" block will have a date/time that it
passed through that server. If you read from the bottom up you'll be able
to see if there's a big gap in time between servers.

However, because of my bounced messages problem with the
list, I have started using the Newsreader to look at and post messages,

and

I definitely noticed that the messages sometimes appear on the

Newsreader

faster (could be many hours) than I receive them in my regular email
account. Not sure if that is because of Shaw or because of some

difficulty

between Mike's server and Shaw receiving them. This is the first message

I

am posting the old email method, so will see if and when it gets through

to

the list.

Messages from Mike's server being delayed won't tell you anything useful
to identify the problem.

Is it just Shaw users that have the problem? I got the impression from
Wayne's message on the subject that it might be other users as well.

Mike corrected, well modified, the problem that Dad reported earlier. He
(and others) were getting (unwanted) SMTP error reports.

Mike thinks or was told that it's a problem all Shaw users are having when
receiving email from _anybody_, not just the this list. I still can't
fathom half of the highspeed users in western Canada not raising hell over
such an issue though.


When I get a bit of time to play I'll see if I can get myself tarpitted by
Shaw's MX servers.


Daryl

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