Moose/SR level flight attitude

[Scott Aldrich]

Have any of you that are flying measured or noted your pitch attitude in
level cruise flight? Flaps reflex, faired?



Thanks,

Scott

Moose 174





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[Dick Shotwell]

Hi Scott,
I don't know the pitch angle but I have noted that our pitot tube is pitched
up slightly. I became aware of this when our AS indicator was reading low.
The pitot tube was installed parallel to the chord so if it is pitched up,
so is the wing. (This is in level, cruise attitude at cruise speeds). When
I realized that it was pitched up slightly I began to wonder if the error in
the AS indicator was being caused by the pitch-up. So far I have done
nothing to correct this. Any ideas?
Dick Shotwell
Moose 096
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Aldrich" <sa@mwutah.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 15:30 PM
Subject: Moose/SR level flight attitude

Have any of you that are flying measured or noted your pitch attitude in
level cruise flight? Flaps reflex, faired?



Thanks,

Scott

Moose 174





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[Scott Aldrich]

I am not sure what the incidence of the wing is? I think I heard 3 degrees
so if your pitot is level with chord it would up in relation to the floor.
Everyone seems to have a different pitot/static setup so it is hard to get
any comparisons.

If all Moose tend to cruise nose high, I am wondering if some more down
thrust (shims) on the engine would be a good idea (before I fit my cowl)??

Scott
Moose 174

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Dick
Shotwell
Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 5:28 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Moose/SR level flight attitude

Hi Scott,
I don't know the pitch angle but I have noted that our pitot tube is pitched
up slightly. I became aware of this when our AS indicator was reading low.
The pitot tube was installed parallel to the chord so if it is pitched up,
so is the wing. (This is in level, cruise attitude at cruise speeds). When
I realized that it was pitched up slightly I began to wonder if the error in
the AS indicator was being caused by the pitch-up. So far I have done
nothing to correct this. Any ideas?
Dick Shotwell
Moose 096
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Aldrich" <sa@mwutah.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 15:30 PM
Subject: Moose/SR level flight attitude

Have any of you that are flying measured or noted your pitch attitude in
level cruise flight? Flaps reflex, faired?



Thanks,

Scott

Moose 174





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[Bob Patterson]

Hi Scott !

It can be challenging to get accurate airspeed indications - the Rebels
have had that problem since the beginning. Partly because of the huge range
of angles they can fly at - one solution has been to go to a larger dameter
tube for the pitot (I used 5/16" tubing on 2 Rebels - helped considerably)

Maybe we need a tilting head on the pitot, with vanes to keep it aligned
with the relative wind, like the flight testing setup on new
aircraft !! ;-) :-)

Good thought on the shims - I've heard several people say that the DH
Beaver has problems, especially on floats, unless you change the thrust
line a bit ..... You might want to talk to some folks with lots of Beaver
mod experience - and let us know what they have to say !

......bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Tuesday 24 August 2004 09:33 pm, Scott Aldrich wrote:

I am not sure what the incidence of the wing is? I think I heard 3 degrees
so if your pitot is level with chord it would up in relation to the floor.
Everyone seems to have a different pitot/static setup so it is hard to get
any comparisons.

If all Moose tend to cruise nose high, I am wondering if some more down
thrust (shims) on the engine would be a good idea (before I fit my cowl)??

Scott
Moose 174

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Dick
Shotwell
Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 5:28 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Moose/SR level flight attitude

Hi Scott,
I don't know the pitch angle but I have noted that our pitot tube is
pitched up slightly. I became aware of this when our AS indicator was
reading low. The pitot tube was installed parallel to the chord so if it is
pitched up, so is the wing. (This is in level, cruise attitude at cruise
speeds). When I realized that it was pitched up slightly I began to wonder
if the error in the AS indicator was being caused by the pitch-up. So far
I have done nothing to correct this. Any ideas?
Dick Shotwell
Moose 096
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Aldrich" <sa@mwutah.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 15:30 PM
Subject: Moose/SR level flight attitude

Have any of you that are flying measured or noted your pitch attitude in
level cruise flight? Flaps reflex, faired?



Thanks,

Scott

Moose 174





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[Ted Waltman]

I too have wondered the same (re engine shims) as even with qutie high
power settings it seems as if I'm flying slightly nose high. Not to
poke fun at you Scott, but I'm not sure what "...level cruise flight..."
means in a Moose <grin>.

This being said, I'm not sure what engineering analysis one would have
to go through to find the optimal angle to mount the engine. Seems like
that study, while very interesting, could be an expensive science
project involving a whole bunch of aerodynamics, wind tunnel tests and
computer time.

None the less, I've looked plenty of times (at my pitot tube and
wing/horizon attitude) in cruise...never, that I recall, has it been
level at any power setting...

Ted




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[Bill Delcambre]

Without doing too much thinking about it, might I suggest a different
question to point you to the engine offset solution; Does it require
significant rudder pressure / rudder tab to fly straight? If the engine is
angled up significantly, I'd expect some P-factor to be in play, causing a
need for left rudder or a significant tab. If not, it's probably not a big
deal.

Or, I could be full of bull about this....

Bill

----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Aldrich" <sa@mwutah.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 8:33 PM
Subject: RE: Moose/SR level flight attitude

I am not sure what the incidence of the wing is? I think I heard 3

degrees

so if your pitot is level with chord it would up in relation to the floor.
Everyone seems to have a different pitot/static setup so it is hard to get
any comparisons.

If all Moose tend to cruise nose high, I am wondering if some more down
thrust (shims) on the engine would be a good idea (before I fit my cowl)??

Scott
Moose 174

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Dick
Shotwell
Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 5:28 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Moose/SR level flight attitude

Hi Scott,
I don't know the pitch angle but I have noted that our pitot tube is

pitched

up slightly. I became aware of this when our AS indicator was reading

low.

The pitot tube was installed parallel to the chord so if it is pitched up,
so is the wing. (This is in level, cruise attitude at cruise speeds).

When

I realized that it was pitched up slightly I began to wonder if the error

in

the AS indicator was being caused by the pitch-up. So far I have done
nothing to correct this. Any ideas?
Dick Shotwell
Moose 096
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Aldrich" <sa@mwutah.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 15:30 PM
Subject: Moose/SR level flight attitude

Have any of you that are flying measured or noted your pitch attitude

in

level cruise flight? Flaps reflex, faired?



Thanks,

Scott

Moose 174





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[Walter Klatt]

The pitot tube on my Rebel is angled down slightly, even in level
flight. This allows it to still register on landings, even with a
high angle of attack. It does not seem to read low in cruise,
though. This did not happen entirely by design, but during one of
my fill-ups a long time ago.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of Bob
Patterson
Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 8:08 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Moose/SR level flight attitude



Hi Scott !

It can be challenging to get accurate airspeed
indications - the Rebels
have had that problem since the beginning. Partly
because of the huge range
of angles they can fly at - one solution has been to
go to a larger dameter
tube for the pitot (I used 5/16" tubing on 2 Rebels -
helped considerably)

Maybe we need a tilting head on the pitot, with vanes
to keep it aligned
with the relative wind, like the flight testing setup on new
aircraft !! ;-) :-)

Good thought on the shims - I've heard several people
say that the DH
Beaver has problems, especially on floats, unless you
change the thrust
line a bit ..... You might want to talk to some
folks with lots of Beaver
mod experience - and let us know what they have to say !

......bobp


-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Tuesday 24 August 2004 09:33 pm, Scott Aldrich wrote:

I am not sure what the incidence of the wing is? I

think I heard 3 degrees

so if your pitot is level with chord it would up in

relation to the floor.

Everyone seems to have a different pitot/static

setup so it is hard to get

any comparisons.

If all Moose tend to cruise nose high, I am

wondering if some more down

thrust (shims) on the engine would be a good idea

(before I fit my cowl)??

Scott
Moose 174

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com

[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Dick

Shotwell
Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 5:28 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Moose/SR level flight attitude

Hi Scott,
I don't know the pitch angle but I have noted that

our pitot tube is

pitched up slightly. I became aware of this when

our AS indicator was

reading low. The pitot tube was installed parallel

to the chord so if it is

pitched up, so is the wing. (This is in level,

cruise attitude at cruise

speeds). When I realized that it was pitched up

slightly I began to wonder

if the error in the AS indicator was being caused by

the pitch-up. So far

I have done nothing to correct this. Any ideas?
Dick Shotwell
Moose 096
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Aldrich" <sa@mwutah.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 15:30 PM
Subject: Moose/SR level flight attitude

Have any of you that are flying measured or noted

your pitch attitude in

level cruise flight? Flaps reflex, faired?



Thanks,

Scott

Moose 174





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[Ted Waltman]

Sounds like there's a story there Walter <grin>.

Bob's point about noting what rudder force (if any) is req'd in "level"
flight is a good one. The problem with that, though, is that on my
Moose, for instance, my vert stab is offset slightly to the right to
compensate for P-factor. On the other hand, I saw at least one Moose at
Oshkosh where the vert stab was aligned straight with the fuselage. So,
how does one objectively compare rudder force notes with folks?

Anyway, it seems that the airspeed is relative anyway. We all fly a
flight attitude on takeoff and landings, noting, over time, what seems
to be a good Vx, Vy and approach speed. In cruise, it's relative too;
we get "there" when we get "there." ...or so it seems to me.

I do know that I'm no where even remotely close to the speeds posted on
the MAM site for the Moose. Heck, I'd have to have a JATO rocket on the
side to get to those speeds <grin>.

Ted

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Walter Klatt
Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2004 7:33 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: Moose/SR level flight attitude


The pitot tube on my Rebel is angled down slightly, even in level
flight. This allows it to still register on landings, even with a high
angle of attack. It does not seem to read low in cruise, though. This
did not happen entirely by design, but during one of my fill-ups a long
time ago.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of Bob
Patterson
Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 8:08 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Moose/SR level flight attitude



Hi Scott !

It can be challenging to get accurate airspeed
indications - the Rebels
have had that problem since the beginning. Partly
because of the huge range
of angles they can fly at - one solution has been to
go to a larger dameter
tube for the pitot (I used 5/16" tubing on 2 Rebels -
helped considerably)

Maybe we need a tilting head on the pitot, with vanes
to keep it aligned
with the relative wind, like the flight testing setup on new
aircraft !! ;-) :-)

Good thought on the shims - I've heard several people
say that the DH
Beaver has problems, especially on floats, unless you
change the thrust
line a bit ..... You might want to talk to some
folks with lots of Beaver
mod experience - and let us know what they have to say !

......bobp


-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Tuesday 24 August 2004 09:33 pm, Scott Aldrich wrote:

I am not sure what the incidence of the wing is? I

think I heard 3 degrees

so if your pitot is level with chord it would up in

relation to the floor.

Everyone seems to have a different pitot/static

setup so it is hard to get

any comparisons.

If all Moose tend to cruise nose high, I am

wondering if some more down

thrust (shims) on the engine would be a good idea

(before I fit my cowl)??

Scott
Moose 174

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com

[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Dick

Shotwell
Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 5:28 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Moose/SR level flight attitude

Hi Scott,
I don't know the pitch angle but I have noted that

our pitot tube is

pitched up slightly. I became aware of this when

our AS indicator was

reading low. The pitot tube was installed parallel

to the chord so if it is

pitched up, so is the wing. (This is in level,

cruise attitude at cruise

speeds). When I realized that it was pitched up

slightly I began to wonder

if the error in the AS indicator was being caused by

the pitch-up. So far

I have done nothing to correct this. Any ideas?
Dick Shotwell
Moose 096
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Aldrich" <sa@mwutah.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 15:30 PM
Subject: Moose/SR level flight attitude

Have any of you that are flying measured or noted

your pitch attitude in

level cruise flight? Flaps reflex, faired?



Thanks,

Scott

Moose 174





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[Walter Klatt]

Nothing major, but on mine, it is easy to bump the pitot tube
when fuelling on that side if you're not careful. I bent it back
up, but it still has a slight downward slant, which as it turned
out, made for more accurate readings on landings.

Yes, airspeeds are just relative indicators. With mine, when I
did my GPS checks, it reads about 5 mph high (cruising speeds)
near sea level but low when up high. However, it is most accurate
at normal cruising altitudes (about 3500 if I remember
correctly).

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of Ted
Waltman
Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2004 6:56 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: Moose/SR level flight attitude


Sounds like there's a story there Walter <grin>.

Bob's point about noting what rudder force (if any) is
req'd in "level"
flight is a good one. The problem with that, though,
is that on my
Moose, for instance, my vert stab is offset slightly
to the right to
compensate for P-factor. On the other hand, I saw at
least one Moose at
Oshkosh where the vert stab was aligned straight with
the fuselage. So,
how does one objectively compare rudder force notes with folks?

Anyway, it seems that the airspeed is relative anyway.
We all fly a
flight attitude on takeoff and landings, noting, over
time, what seems
to be a good Vx, Vy and approach speed. In cruise,
it's relative too;
we get "there" when we get "there." ...or so it seems to me.

I do know that I'm no where even remotely close to the
speeds posted on
the MAM site for the Moose. Heck, I'd have to have a
JATO rocket on the
side to get to those speeds <grin>.

Ted

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Walter Klatt
Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2004 7:33 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: Moose/SR level flight attitude


The pitot tube on my Rebel is angled down slightly,
even in level
flight. This allows it to still register on landings,
even with a high
angle of attack. It does not seem to read low in
cruise, though. This
did not happen entirely by design, but during one of
my fill-ups a long
time ago.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of Bob
Patterson
Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 8:08 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Moose/SR level flight attitude



Hi Scott !

It can be challenging to get accurate airspeed
indications - the Rebels
have had that problem since the beginning. Partly
because of the huge range
of angles they can fly at - one solution has been to
go to a larger dameter
tube for the pitot (I used 5/16" tubing on 2 Rebels -
helped considerably)

Maybe we need a tilting head on the pitot, with vanes
to keep it aligned
with the relative wind, like the flight testing setup on new
aircraft !! ;-) :-)

Good thought on the shims - I've heard several people
say that the DH
Beaver has problems, especially on floats, unless you
change the thrust
line a bit ..... You might want to talk to some
folks with lots of Beaver
mod experience - and let us know what they have to say !

......bobp


-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Tuesday 24 August 2004 09:33 pm, Scott Aldrich wrote:

I am not sure what the incidence of the wing is? I

think I heard 3 degrees

so if your pitot is level with chord it would up in

relation to the floor.

Everyone seems to have a different pitot/static

setup so it is hard to get

any comparisons.

If all Moose tend to cruise nose high, I am

wondering if some more down

thrust (shims) on the engine would be a good idea

(before I fit my cowl)??

Scott
Moose 174

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com

[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Dick

Shotwell
Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 5:28 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Moose/SR level flight attitude

Hi Scott,
I don't know the pitch angle but I have noted that

our pitot tube is

pitched up slightly. I became aware of this when

our AS indicator was

reading low. The pitot tube was installed parallel

to the chord so if it is

pitched up, so is the wing. (This is in level,

cruise attitude at cruise

speeds). When I realized that it was pitched up

slightly I began to wonder

if the error in the AS indicator was being caused by

the pitch-up. So far

I have done nothing to correct this. Any ideas?
Dick Shotwell
Moose 096
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Aldrich" <sa@mwutah.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 15:30 PM
Subject: Moose/SR level flight attitude

your pitch attitude in

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[Scott Aldrich]

Ted, that would be constant altitude, constant airspeed, but not with me at
the controls :)

Bill, actually you did a lot of thinking as you remembered which way the
prop turns on an M14..

It would seem then that most are cruising nose high whether on floats or
not.



-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Ted
Waltman
Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2004 6:08 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: Moose/SR level flight attitude

I too have wondered the same (re engine shims) as even with qutie high
power settings it seems as if I'm flying slightly nose high. Not to
poke fun at you Scott, but I'm not sure what "...level cruise flight..."
means in a Moose <grin>.

This being said, I'm not sure what engineering analysis one would have
to go through to find the optimal angle to mount the engine. Seems like
that study, while very interesting, could be an expensive science
project involving a whole bunch of aerodynamics, wind tunnel tests and
computer time.

None the less, I've looked plenty of times (at my pitot tube and
wing/horizon attitude) in cruise...never, that I recall, has it been
level at any power setting...

Ted




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