Smacking it on the runway!!

[rebel]

Rebel 0145R here, EA81 Subaru and 0145R have provided me with some great
flying. I'm still very happy with my setup. However I do have a question that
may be hard to get an answer for. Out of 140 landings so far, 138 have been
really good, however today I smacked it down on both landings. My question is,
how much can these planes take as far as landings go? Usually I don't feed the
bunggies give at all but I did on these two landings. Does anyone know where
the weak point would be just so I can check it out. I am probably over-
reacting, but I don't mind admitting a bad landing (or two!) if something can
be learned by everone.
Thanks all..

Frank Arndt (Paco)



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[Walter Klatt]

I had the bungee gear back when I was on wheels, and while many
would say it is strong, I did find it's weak spot during a
mishandled crosswind bounce when I was still learning what a
taildragger was all about. Here's some pics and if you go to the
close-up of LG-41, you'll see that it buckled exactly in the
middle. It has an inner sleeve that ends right where the bend
occurred. I don't know why they wouldn't have extended it the
full length.
http://members.shaw.ca/walter.klatt/Reb ... lcrashpics
.htm

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
rebel@dcsol.com
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2004 4:57 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Smacking it on the runway!!


Rebel 0145R here, EA81 Subaru and 0145R have provided
me with some great
flying. I'm still very happy with my setup. However I
do have a question that
may be hard to get an answer for. Out of 140 landings
so far, 138 have been
really good, however today I smacked it down on both
landings. My question is,
how much can these planes take as far as landings go?
Usually I don't feed the
bunggies give at all but I did on these two landings.
Does anyone know where
the weak point would be just so I can check it out. I
am probably over-
reacting, but I don't mind admitting a bad landing (or
two!) if something can
be learned by everone.
Thanks all..

Frank Arndt (Paco)



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[Scott Aldrich]

Walter, what is the story on the Air Canada 747 hard (okay, crash)landing
picture on your web?

Scott

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Walter
Klatt
Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2004 8:25 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: Smacking it on the runway!!

I had the bungee gear back when I was on wheels, and while many
would say it is strong, I did find it's weak spot during a
mishandled crosswind bounce when I was still learning what a
taildragger was all about. Here's some pics and if you go to the
close-up of LG-41, you'll see that it buckled exactly in the
middle. It has an inner sleeve that ends right where the bend
occurred. I don't know why they wouldn't have extended it the
full length.
http://members.shaw.ca/walter.klatt/Reb ... lcrashpics
.htm

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
rebel@dcsol.com
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2004 4:57 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Smacking it on the runway!!


Rebel 0145R here, EA81 Subaru and 0145R have provided
me with some great
flying. I'm still very happy with my setup. However I
do have a question that
may be hard to get an answer for. Out of 140 landings
so far, 138 have been
really good, however today I smacked it down on both
landings. My question is,
how much can these planes take as far as landings go?
Usually I don't feed the
bunggies give at all but I did on these two landings.
Does anyone know where
the weak point would be just so I can check it out. I
am probably over-
reacting, but I don't mind admitting a bad landing (or
two!) if something can
be learned by everone.
Thanks all..

Frank Arndt (Paco)



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[Ken]

Fake photo. I believe it was a test of a cargo explosion in a
pressurized fuselage that someone superimposed.

Ken

Scott Aldrich wrote:

Walter, what is the story on the Air Canada 747 hard (okay, crash)landing
picture on your web?

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[Ken]

Hmmm
Unless my memory is totally zonked, there is No inner sleeve in my
struts except for that short top insert that drops the 1650 lb strut
size down to fit into the fuselage brackets. (Actually I guess even that
has been replaced with Gord's adapter and bronze bushings on mine now)
That photo sure emphasizes why MAM says not to drill any holes in the
strut!!
Ken

Walter Klatt wrote:

I had the bungee gear back when I was on wheels, and while many
would say it is strong, I did find it's weak spot during a
mishandled crosswind bounce when I was still learning what a
taildragger was all about. Here's some pics and if you go to the
close-up of LG-41, you'll see that it buckled exactly in the
middle. It has an inner sleeve that ends right where the bend
occurred. I don't know why they wouldn't have extended it the
full length.
http://members.shaw.ca/walter.klatt/Reb ... lcrashpics
.htm

Walter

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[Walter Klatt]

I think that inner sleeve was part of the 1650 upgrade for the
bungee gear. Too bad it didn't go the full length, because the
bend occurred exactly where it ended, in the middle of the gear
strut. And there were no drilled holes in that strut. If I were
building it again, I would extend an inner sleeve the full
length.

I don't think this bend would have occurred if both wheels would
have contacted the ground together, as then the bungees would
have absorbed the impact. However, one wing stalled first in the
crosswind, and all the weight came down hard on that one gear and
the bungee could not function at that angle.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of Ken
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 9:48 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Smacking it on the runway!!


Hmmm
Unless my memory is totally zonked, there is No inner
sleeve in my
struts except for that short top insert that drops the
1650 lb strut
size down to fit into the fuselage brackets. (Actually
I guess even that
has been replaced with Gord's adapter and bronze
bushings on mine now)
That photo sure emphasizes why MAM says not to drill
any holes in the
strut!!
Ken

Walter Klatt wrote:

I had the bungee gear back when I was on wheels, and

while many

would say it is strong, I did find it's weak spot during a
mishandled crosswind bounce when I was still learning what a
taildragger was all about. Here's some pics and if

you go to the

close-up of LG-41, you'll see that it buckled exactly in the
middle. It has an inner sleeve that ends right where the bend
occurred. I don't know why they wouldn't have extended it the
full length.
http://members.shaw.ca/walter.klatt/Rebelcrashpics/Reb

elcrashpics

.htm

Walter

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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

I've been sitting back on this one Frank..... as I don't like to over sell
here.... but the weakest link of the gear is that aluminum bungee strut.
Even MAM has it (the slider section) down now as a 200 hour "throw away" in
their Maintenance Manual.... so they started listening somewhere along the
line. The best "Band-Aid" you can use to hold the legs together is the 4130
struts and die springs like I build, or that you can fabricate yourself.

These overbuilt 4130 struts do wonders for keeping the gear intact even in a
ground loop. I've done one intentionally to avoid going through a fence (at
about 35 MPH) and have watched a "customer" do a couple at 45MPH++ without
damage to airframe. The only thing I have managed to bend on my airplane is
a main gear leg and I had to do a helicopter landing (at about 3 g's) onto
one ski edge, that sheared all my door post rivets out, broke my windshield
etc. The bent leg was very hard to detect even off the airplane. All I
noticed to prompt removing it was the tire/wheel seemed to sit a little
cocked compared to usual. Placing the gear leg on a flat surface and holding
at one end barely showed the warp, but pushing down at the other end had the
opposite end about an inch in the air thanks to the bend being only a few
inches out from the one end.

First check your bungee bolts. Did they get bent?? Then check the main gear
leg with a steel straight edge that matches the full length of the leg.

Cheers,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: <rebel@dcsol.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2004 7:57 PM
Subject: Smacking it on the runway!!

Rebel 0145R here, EA81 Subaru and 0145R have provided me with some great
flying. I'm still very happy with my setup. However I do have a question

that

may be hard to get an answer for. Out of 140 landings so far, 138 have

been

really good, however today I smacked it down on both landings. My question

is,

how much can these planes take as far as landings go? Usually I don't feed

the

bunggies give at all but I did on these two landings. Does anyone know

where

the weak point would be just so I can check it out. I am probably over-
reacting, but I don't mind admitting a bad landing (or two!) if something

can

be learned by everone.
Thanks all..

Frank Arndt (Paco)



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-----------------------------------------------------

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[Keith Oliver]

200 hour "throw away" in
their Maintenance Manual.... WHAT MANUAL

Keith Oliver
Elite #654 TD
N654ME (reserved)
Farmingdale, Maine



-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Wayne G. O'Shea
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 10:18 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Smacking it on the runway!!


I've been sitting back on this one Frank..... as I don't like to over sell
here.... but the weakest link of the gear is that aluminum bungee strut.
Even MAM has it (the slider section) down now as a 200 hour "throw away" in
their Maintenance Manual.... so they started listening somewhere along the
line. The best "Band-Aid" you can use to hold the legs together is the 4130
struts and die springs like I build, or that you can fabricate yourself.

These overbuilt 4130 struts do wonders for keeping the gear intact even in a
ground loop. I've done one intentionally to avoid going through a fence (at
about 35 MPH) and have watched a "customer" do a couple at 45MPH++ without
damage to airframe. The only thing I have managed to bend on my airplane is
a main gear leg and I had to do a helicopter landing (at about 3 g's) onto
one ski edge, that sheared all my door post rivets out, broke my windshield
etc. The bent leg was very hard to detect even off the airplane. All I
noticed to prompt removing it was the tire/wheel seemed to sit a little
cocked compared to usual. Placing the gear leg on a flat surface and holding
at one end barely showed the warp, but pushing down at the other end had the
opposite end about an inch in the air thanks to the bend being only a few
inches out from the one end.

First check your bungee bolts. Did they get bent?? Then check the main gear
leg with a steel straight edge that matches the full length of the leg.

Cheers,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: <rebel@dcsol.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2004 7:57 PM
Subject: Smacking it on the runway!!

Rebel 0145R here, EA81 Subaru and 0145R have provided me with some great
flying. I'm still very happy with my setup. However I do have a question

that

may be hard to get an answer for. Out of 140 landings so far, 138 have

been

really good, however today I smacked it down on both landings. My question

is,

how much can these planes take as far as landings go? Usually I don't feed

the

bunggies give at all but I did on these two landings. Does anyone know

where

the weak point would be just so I can check it out. I am probably over-
reacting, but I don't mind admitting a bad landing (or two!) if something

can

be learned by everone.
Thanks all..

Frank Arndt (Paco)



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[WALTER KLATT]

You can download the latest manuals from this link.
http://www.murphyair.com/SUPPORT/Rebel.htm


Walter

----- Original Message -----
From: Keith Oliver <kboliver@adelphia.net>
Date: Friday, June 25, 2004 2:15 pm
Subject: RE: Smacking it on the runway!!

200 hour "throw away" in
their Maintenance Manual.... WHAT MANUAL

Keith Oliver
Elite #654 TD
N654ME (reserved)
Farmingdale, Maine



-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Wayne G. O'Shea
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 10:18 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Smacking it on the runway!!


I've been sitting back on this one Frank..... as I don't like to
over sell
here.... but the weakest link of the gear is that aluminum bungee
strut.Even MAM has it (the slider section) down now as a 200 hour
"throw away" in
their Maintenance Manual.... so they started listening somewhere
along the
line. The best "Band-Aid" you can use to hold the legs together is
the 4130
struts and die springs like I build, or that you can fabricate
yourself.
These overbuilt 4130 struts do wonders for keeping the gear intact
even in a
ground loop. I've done one intentionally to avoid going through a
fence (at
about 35 MPH) and have watched a "customer" do a couple at 45MPH++
withoutdamage to airframe. The only thing I have managed to bend
on my airplane is
a main gear leg and I had to do a helicopter landing (at about 3
g's) onto
one ski edge, that sheared all my door post rivets out, broke my
windshieldetc. The bent leg was very hard to detect even off the
airplane. All I
noticed to prompt removing it was the tire/wheel seemed to sit a
littlecocked compared to usual. Placing the gear leg on a flat
surface and holding
at one end barely showed the warp, but pushing down at the other
end had the
opposite end about an inch in the air thanks to the bend being
only a few
inches out from the one end.

First check your bungee bolts. Did they get bent?? Then check the
main gear
leg with a steel straight edge that matches the full length of the
leg.
Cheers,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: <rebel@dcsol.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2004 7:57 PM
Subject: Smacking it on the runway!!

Rebel 0145R here, EA81 Subaru and 0145R have provided me with

some great

flying. I'm still very happy with my setup. However I do have a

questionthat

may be hard to get an answer for. Out of 140 landings so far,

138 have
been

really good, however today I smacked it down on both landings.

My question
is,

how much can these planes take as far as landings go? Usually I

don't feed
the

bunggies give at all but I did on these two landings. Does

anyone know
where

the weak point would be just so I can check it out. I am

probably over-

reacting, but I don't mind admitting a bad landing (or two!) if

somethingcan

be learned by everone.
Thanks all..

Frank Arndt (Paco)



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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

The manual that can probably be used for the Elite as well..since it also
covers spring gear.

Got to MAM's site www.murphyair.com Hit Tech support, select the Rebel file
and down in the bottom left corner under General information you will find
"Rebel Maint manual"

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Keith Oliver" <kboliver@adelphia.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, June 25, 2004 5:15 PM
Subject: RE: Smacking it on the runway!!

200 hour "throw away" in
their Maintenance Manual.... WHAT MANUAL

Keith Oliver
Elite #654 TD
N654ME (reserved)
Farmingdale, Maine



-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Wayne G. O'Shea
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 10:18 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Smacking it on the runway!!


I've been sitting back on this one Frank..... as I don't like to over sell
here.... but the weakest link of the gear is that aluminum bungee strut.
Even MAM has it (the slider section) down now as a 200 hour "throw away"

in

their Maintenance Manual.... so they started listening somewhere along the
line. The best "Band-Aid" you can use to hold the legs together is the

4130

struts and die springs like I build, or that you can fabricate yourself.

These overbuilt 4130 struts do wonders for keeping the gear intact even in

a

ground loop. I've done one intentionally to avoid going through a fence

(at

about 35 MPH) and have watched a "customer" do a couple at 45MPH++ without
damage to airframe. The only thing I have managed to bend on my airplane

is

a main gear leg and I had to do a helicopter landing (at about 3 g's) onto
one ski edge, that sheared all my door post rivets out, broke my

windshield

etc. The bent leg was very hard to detect even off the airplane. All I
noticed to prompt removing it was the tire/wheel seemed to sit a little
cocked compared to usual. Placing the gear leg on a flat surface and

holding

at one end barely showed the warp, but pushing down at the other end had

the

opposite end about an inch in the air thanks to the bend being only a few
inches out from the one end.

First check your bungee bolts. Did they get bent?? Then check the main

gear

leg with a steel straight edge that matches the full length of the leg.

Cheers,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: <rebel@dcsol.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2004 7:57 PM
Subject: Smacking it on the runway!!

Rebel 0145R here, EA81 Subaru and 0145R have provided me with some great
flying. I'm still very happy with my setup. However I do have a question

that

may be hard to get an answer for. Out of 140 landings so far, 138 have

been

really good, however today I smacked it down on both landings. My

question

is,

how much can these planes take as far as landings go? Usually I don't

feed

the

bunggies give at all but I did on these two landings. Does anyone know

where

the weak point would be just so I can check it out. I am probably over-
reacting, but I don't mind admitting a bad landing (or two!) if

something

can

be learned by everone.
Thanks all..

Frank Arndt (Paco)



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[Frank Arndt]

I appreciate the response Wayne.
I guess I should have told you the whole story.

The gear legs are all 4130 with very heavy bungee attach fittings. (if
they weren't, I would have done some business with you already!) I suspect
that the gear assembly is plenty strong in my case, I was more wondering
about the airframe. Specifically the wing attach and struts etc. as these
can take a pretty good pounding when you land hard. You pointed out the door
post rivets and that makes good sense, I will take a good look. I keep a
close eye on the entire tail assembly, as this also smacked the tail wheel
down good and hard. Given your ground loop comments, I realize that I am
probably over-reacting and maybe what I consider hard, isn't really hard at
all? With only 800 feet of runway with trees on each end, it is sometimes
hard to get the flare/airspeed just right, especially on a gusty day, so
some landings are a bit rougher than what I can do on a clear 2000 foot
strip. Have you ever seen or heard of wear or damage where the wing attach
fittings are concerned, due to hard landings or is this a pretty over
designed area?

I think I am a prime candidate for a more forgiving spring set-up like you
have, I may be in touch with you off-line to discuss if that is ok? If I
were operating on a longer strip, this would be a non-issue, but I am not!

Thanks for the input from you and everyone that responded.

Frank


-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Wayne G. O'Shea
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 10:18 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Smacking it on the runway!!


I've been sitting back on this one Frank..... as I don't like to over sell
here.... but the weakest link of the gear is that aluminum bungee strut.
Even MAM has it (the slider section) down now as a 200 hour "throw away" in
their Maintenance Manual.... so they started listening somewhere along the
line. The best "Band-Aid" you can use to hold the legs together is the 4130
struts and die springs like I build, or that you can fabricate yourself.

These overbuilt 4130 struts do wonders for keeping the gear intact even in a
ground loop. I've done one intentionally to avoid going through a fence (at
about 35 MPH) and have watched a "customer" do a couple at 45MPH++ without
damage to airframe. The only thing I have managed to bend on my airplane is
a main gear leg and I had to do a helicopter landing (at about 3 g's) onto
one ski edge, that sheared all my door post rivets out, broke my windshield
etc. The bent leg was very hard to detect even off the airplane. All I
noticed to prompt removing it was the tire/wheel seemed to sit a little
cocked compared to usual. Placing the gear leg on a flat surface and holding
at one end barely showed the warp, but pushing down at the other end had the
opposite end about an inch in the air thanks to the bend being only a few
inches out from the one end.

First check your bungee bolts. Did they get bent?? Then check the main gear
leg with a steel straight edge that matches the full length of the leg.

Cheers,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: <rebel@dcsol.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2004 7:57 PM
Subject: Smacking it on the runway!!

Rebel 0145R here, EA81 Subaru and 0145R have provided me with some great
flying. I'm still very happy with my setup. However I do have a question

that

may be hard to get an answer for. Out of 140 landings so far, 138 have

been

really good, however today I smacked it down on both landings. My question

is,

how much can these planes take as far as landings go? Usually I don't feed

the

bunggies give at all but I did on these two landings. Does anyone know

where

the weak point would be just so I can check it out. I am probably over-
reacting, but I don't mind admitting a bad landing (or two!) if something

can

be learned by everone.
Thanks all..

Frank Arndt (Paco)



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[Keith Oliver]

Thanks

Keith Oliver
Elite #654 TD
N654ME (reserved)
Farmingdale, Maine



-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
WALTER KLATT
Sent: Friday, June 25, 2004 5:36 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: RE: Smacking it on the runway!!


You can download the latest manuals from this link.
http://www.murphyair.com/SUPPORT/Rebel.htm


Walter

----- Original Message -----
From: Keith Oliver <kboliver@adelphia.net>
Date: Friday, June 25, 2004 2:15 pm
Subject: RE: Smacking it on the runway!!

200 hour "throw away" in
their Maintenance Manual.... WHAT MANUAL

Keith Oliver
Elite #654 TD
N654ME (reserved)
Farmingdale, Maine



-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Wayne G. O'Shea
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 10:18 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Smacking it on the runway!!


I've been sitting back on this one Frank..... as I don't like to
over sell
here.... but the weakest link of the gear is that aluminum bungee
strut.Even MAM has it (the slider section) down now as a 200 hour
"throw away" in
their Maintenance Manual.... so they started listening somewhere
along the
line. The best "Band-Aid" you can use to hold the legs together is
the 4130
struts and die springs like I build, or that you can fabricate
yourself.
These overbuilt 4130 struts do wonders for keeping the gear intact
even in a
ground loop. I've done one intentionally to avoid going through a
fence (at
about 35 MPH) and have watched a "customer" do a couple at 45MPH++
withoutdamage to airframe. The only thing I have managed to bend
on my airplane is
a main gear leg and I had to do a helicopter landing (at about 3
g's) onto
one ski edge, that sheared all my door post rivets out, broke my
windshieldetc. The bent leg was very hard to detect even off the
airplane. All I
noticed to prompt removing it was the tire/wheel seemed to sit a
littlecocked compared to usual. Placing the gear leg on a flat
surface and holding
at one end barely showed the warp, but pushing down at the other
end had the
opposite end about an inch in the air thanks to the bend being
only a few
inches out from the one end.

First check your bungee bolts. Did they get bent?? Then check the
main gear
leg with a steel straight edge that matches the full length of the
leg.
Cheers,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: <rebel@dcsol.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2004 7:57 PM
Subject: Smacking it on the runway!!

Rebel 0145R here, EA81 Subaru and 0145R have provided me with

some great

flying. I'm still very happy with my setup. However I do have a

questionthat

may be hard to get an answer for. Out of 140 landings so far,

138 have
been

really good, however today I smacked it down on both landings.

My question
is,

how much can these planes take as far as landings go? Usually I

don't feed
the

bunggies give at all but I did on these two landings. Does

anyone know
where

the weak point would be just so I can check it out. I am

probably over-

reacting, but I don't mind admitting a bad landing (or two!) if

somethingcan

be learned by everone.
Thanks all..

Frank Arndt (Paco)



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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

Wings attach fittings even survive cartwheels on floats, airplanes going on
there backs etc, without apparent damage. In cases such as these I always
replace all the bolt on attach fittings anyhow...just for "piece of mind",
but probably not even necessary.

The other thing to check considering you have gear legs that are probably
stronger than the attach fittings...make sure that you haven't damaged the
drag brace attach fittings, bulkheads or the attachment rivets to the double
bulkhead. If these rivets get sheared or the bulkheads get cracked, when you
are taxiing the main leg will pull forward if the drag brace attach lets go
and you'll find yourself on a wing tip and in need of a propellor and engine
tear down.

Wayne
oifa@irishfield.on.ca

----- Original Message -----
From: "Frank Arndt" <farndt@cogeco.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, June 25, 2004 9:26 PM
Subject: RE: Smacking it on the runway!!

I appreciate the response Wayne.
I guess I should have told you the whole story.

The gear legs are all 4130 with very heavy bungee attach fittings. (if
they weren't, I would have done some business with you already!) I suspect
that the gear assembly is plenty strong in my case, I was more wondering
about the airframe. Specifically the wing attach and struts etc. as these
can take a pretty good pounding when you land hard. You pointed out the

door

post rivets and that makes good sense, I will take a good look. I keep a
close eye on the entire tail assembly, as this also smacked the tail wheel
down good and hard. Given your ground loop comments, I realize that I am
probably over-reacting and maybe what I consider hard, isn't really hard

at

all? With only 800 feet of runway with trees on each end, it is sometimes
hard to get the flare/airspeed just right, especially on a gusty day, so
some landings are a bit rougher than what I can do on a clear 2000 foot
strip. Have you ever seen or heard of wear or damage where the wing attach
fittings are concerned, due to hard landings or is this a pretty over
designed area?

I think I am a prime candidate for a more forgiving spring set-up like you
have, I may be in touch with you off-line to discuss if that is ok? If I
were operating on a longer strip, this would be a non-issue, but I am not!

Thanks for the input from you and everyone that responded.

Frank


-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Wayne G. O'Shea
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 10:18 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Smacking it on the runway!!


I've been sitting back on this one Frank..... as I don't like to over sell
here.... but the weakest link of the gear is that aluminum bungee strut.
Even MAM has it (the slider section) down now as a 200 hour "throw away"

in

their Maintenance Manual.... so they started listening somewhere along the
line. The best "Band-Aid" you can use to hold the legs together is the

4130

struts and die springs like I build, or that you can fabricate yourself.

These overbuilt 4130 struts do wonders for keeping the gear intact even in

a

ground loop. I've done one intentionally to avoid going through a fence

(at

about 35 MPH) and have watched a "customer" do a couple at 45MPH++ without
damage to airframe. The only thing I have managed to bend on my airplane

is

a main gear leg and I had to do a helicopter landing (at about 3 g's) onto
one ski edge, that sheared all my door post rivets out, broke my

windshield

etc. The bent leg was very hard to detect even off the airplane. All I
noticed to prompt removing it was the tire/wheel seemed to sit a little
cocked compared to usual. Placing the gear leg on a flat surface and

holding

at one end barely showed the warp, but pushing down at the other end had

the

opposite end about an inch in the air thanks to the bend being only a few
inches out from the one end.

First check your bungee bolts. Did they get bent?? Then check the main

gear

leg with a steel straight edge that matches the full length of the leg.

Cheers,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: <rebel@dcsol.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2004 7:57 PM
Subject: Smacking it on the runway!!

Rebel 0145R here, EA81 Subaru and 0145R have provided me with some great
flying. I'm still very happy with my setup. However I do have a question

that

may be hard to get an answer for. Out of 140 landings so far, 138 have

been

really good, however today I smacked it down on both landings. My

question

is,

how much can these planes take as far as landings go? Usually I don't

feed

the

bunggies give at all but I did on these two landings. Does anyone know

where

the weak point would be just so I can check it out. I am probably over-
reacting, but I don't mind admitting a bad landing (or two!) if

something

can

be learned by everone.
Thanks all..

Frank Arndt (Paco)



-----------------------------------------------------
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[David Ricker]

Keith

Have you heard of the existence of an Elite POH? Last time I asked it
didn't seem to exist.

Cheers,

Dave R.
www.elite583.cjb.net

Keith Oliver wrote:

Thanks

Keith Oliver
Elite #654 TD
N654ME (reserved)
Farmingdale, Maine

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
WALTER KLATT
Sent: Friday, June 25, 2004 5:36 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: RE: Smacking it on the runway!!

You can download the latest manuals from this link.
http://www.murphyair.com/SUPPORT/Rebel.htm

Walter

----- Original Message -----
From: Keith Oliver <kboliver@adelphia.net>
Date: Friday, June 25, 2004 2:15 pm
Subject: RE: Smacking it on the runway!!

200 hour "throw away" in
their Maintenance Manual.... WHAT MANUAL

Keith Oliver
Elite #654 TD
N654ME (reserved)
Farmingdale, Maine



-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Wayne G. O'Shea
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 10:18 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Smacking it on the runway!!


I've been sitting back on this one Frank..... as I don't like to
over sell
here.... but the weakest link of the gear is that aluminum bungee
strut.Even MAM has it (the slider section) down now as a 200 hour
"throw away" in
their Maintenance Manual.... so they started listening somewhere
along the
line. The best "Band-Aid" you can use to hold the legs together is
the 4130
struts and die springs like I build, or that you can fabricate
yourself.
These overbuilt 4130 struts do wonders for keeping the gear intact
even in a
ground loop. I've done one intentionally to avoid going through a
fence (at
about 35 MPH) and have watched a "customer" do a couple at 45MPH++
withoutdamage to airframe. The only thing I have managed to bend
on my airplane is
a main gear leg and I had to do a helicopter landing (at about 3
g's) onto
one ski edge, that sheared all my door post rivets out, broke my
windshieldetc. The bent leg was very hard to detect even off the
airplane. All I
noticed to prompt removing it was the tire/wheel seemed to sit a
littlecocked compared to usual. Placing the gear leg on a flat
surface and holding
at one end barely showed the warp, but pushing down at the other
end had the
opposite end about an inch in the air thanks to the bend being
only a few
inches out from the one end.

First check your bungee bolts. Did they get bent?? Then check the
main gear
leg with a steel straight edge that matches the full length of the
leg.
Cheers,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: <rebel@dcsol.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2004 7:57 PM
Subject: Smacking it on the runway!!

Rebel 0145R here, EA81 Subaru and 0145R have provided me with

some great

flying. I'm still very happy with my setup. However I do have a

questionthat

may be hard to get an answer for. Out of 140 landings so far,

138 have
been

really good, however today I smacked it down on both landings.

My question
is,

how much can these planes take as far as landings go? Usually I

don't feed
the

bunggies give at all but I did on these two landings. Does

anyone know
where

the weak point would be just so I can check it out. I am

probably over-

reacting, but I don't mind admitting a bad landing (or two!) if

somethingcan

be learned by everone.
Thanks all..

Frank Arndt (Paco)



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--
David A. Ricker
Fall River, Nova Scotia
Canada






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[Keith Oliver]

Not a word as of sun n fun

Keith Oliver
Elite #654 TD
N654ME (reserved)
Farmingdale, Maine



-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
David Ricker
Sent: Saturday, June 26, 2004 9:14 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Smacking it on the runway!!


Keith

Have you heard of the existence of an Elite POH? Last time I asked it
didn't seem to exist.

Cheers,

Dave R.
www.elite583.cjb.net

Keith Oliver wrote:

Thanks

Keith Oliver
Elite #654 TD
N654ME (reserved)
Farmingdale, Maine

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
WALTER KLATT
Sent: Friday, June 25, 2004 5:36 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: RE: Smacking it on the runway!!

You can download the latest manuals from this link.
http://www.murphyair.com/SUPPORT/Rebel.htm

Walter

----- Original Message -----
From: Keith Oliver <kboliver@adelphia.net>
Date: Friday, June 25, 2004 2:15 pm
Subject: RE: Smacking it on the runway!!

200 hour "throw away" in
their Maintenance Manual.... WHAT MANUAL

Keith Oliver
Elite #654 TD
N654ME (reserved)
Farmingdale, Maine



-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Wayne G. O'Shea
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 10:18 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Smacking it on the runway!!


I've been sitting back on this one Frank..... as I don't like to
over sell
here.... but the weakest link of the gear is that aluminum bungee
strut.Even MAM has it (the slider section) down now as a 200 hour
"throw away" in
their Maintenance Manual.... so they started listening somewhere
along the
line. The best "Band-Aid" you can use to hold the legs together is
the 4130
struts and die springs like I build, or that you can fabricate
yourself.
These overbuilt 4130 struts do wonders for keeping the gear intact
even in a
ground loop. I've done one intentionally to avoid going through a
fence (at
about 35 MPH) and have watched a "customer" do a couple at 45MPH++
withoutdamage to airframe. The only thing I have managed to bend
on my airplane is
a main gear leg and I had to do a helicopter landing (at about 3
g's) onto
one ski edge, that sheared all my door post rivets out, broke my
windshieldetc. The bent leg was very hard to detect even off the
airplane. All I
noticed to prompt removing it was the tire/wheel seemed to sit a
littlecocked compared to usual. Placing the gear leg on a flat
surface and holding
at one end barely showed the warp, but pushing down at the other
end had the
opposite end about an inch in the air thanks to the bend being
only a few
inches out from the one end.

First check your bungee bolts. Did they get bent?? Then check the
main gear
leg with a steel straight edge that matches the full length of the
leg.
Cheers,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: <rebel@dcsol.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2004 7:57 PM
Subject: Smacking it on the runway!!

Rebel 0145R here, EA81 Subaru and 0145R have provided me with

some great

flying. I'm still very happy with my setup. However I do have a

questionthat

may be hard to get an answer for. Out of 140 landings so far,

138 have
been

really good, however today I smacked it down on both landings.

My question
is,

how much can these planes take as far as landings go? Usually I

don't feed
the

bunggies give at all but I did on these two landings. Does

anyone know
where

the weak point would be just so I can check it out. I am

probably over-

reacting, but I don't mind admitting a bad landing (or two!) if

somethingcan

be learned by everone.
Thanks all..

Frank Arndt (Paco)



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--
David A. Ricker
Fall River, Nova Scotia
Canada






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